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Old 2013-01-12, 22:06   Link #161
hyl
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I never said it was secondary, just that on top on everything else it makes it especially so.
So that is very contradicting if you are saying that character deaths are a primary reason to make something serious if you previously stated


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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
No I said it's not a particularly serious series, especially when you take that fact into consideration. I never stated something broadly like "someone needs to die for it to be serious." I would never say this.
Unless it's even lower and has become a tertiary reason.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:20   Link #162
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Heh. Calling something "just your opinion" is not a license to dismiss the content of the post. We can talk about our subjective experiences objectively.

Anyway, I was writing a long post but I noticed that relentlessflame had already summed up the thread, as always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
We already had a conversation earlier (in what is now this thread) about the role the tone/nature of the show might have on your expectations from how the "serious" scenes would be presented, but the argument is that if a show is going to have "serious action" scenes, they should presented devoid of sexual fanservice that "unavoidably distracts".
I can't see how just the action scenes could be separated from the general tone of the show. I mean, they could be separeted, but what would be gained by doing that?

That's why trying to establish the tone of the show is very important. Just what kind of show is this? What should I expect?

I really can't picture Rainbow or Shigurui having Strike Witches-esque fanservice. That would absolutely break the immersion.

I think the aforementioned shows are "serious" shows. Or rather, to use a somewhat notorious term, they are "mature" shows. In my view, crotch shots and blatant fanservice have no place in a serious work of art. So my thinking is somewhat binary: it's either/or.

Now, is all fanservice a conceptual flaw? I don't think so. I think there is a "scale": on one end we have SW ass shots and on the other we have, for example, the Hitagi shower scene in Bakemonogatari. I would argue that calling the shower scene in Bakemonogatari "fanservice" is doing a disservice to the whole scene; it's much more than just a naked 2-D model taking a shower. It establishes Hitagi's character and provides new insight into the relationship between Araragi and Hitagi.

Of course, all the fun ensues when different people's conceptions of "mature" and "serious" collide.

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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
So that is very contradicting if you are saying that character deaths are a primary reason to make something serious if you previously stated .
It's not the deaths per se, I think, but rather the feeling of suspense. This character I'm watching could really die. He could really get hurt. Some shows simply don't have that kind of suspense. I call those kinds of shows "lighthearted".
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:24   Link #163
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
So that is very contradicting if you are saying that character deaths are a primary reason to make something serious if you previously stated




Unless it's even lower and has become a tertiary reason.
Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to get at by attempting to twist my words.

A significant contributing reason to why I don't see Nanoha that serious is there's basically never death. You also have to take into consideration the context of the series itself. I never made a broad sweeping claim about anything here. I also am not trying to play it off as an insignificant issue. Sorry if this is too hard to understand, but if you are trying to make some sort of point out of all this you lost me long ago.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:28   Link #164
hyl
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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Honestly, I have no idea what you're trying to get at by attempting to twist my words.

A significant contributing reason to why I don't see Nanoha that serious is there's basically never death. You also have to take into consideration the context of the series itself. I never made a broad sweeping claim about anything here. I also am not trying to play it off as an insignificant issue. Sorry if this is too hard to understand, but if you are trying to make some sort of point out of all this you lost me long ago.
Then you probably have not seen or understood some story elements from A's and Strikers if you thought the entire serie was full of fluff. Also Fate's backstory in the first serie is hardly a matter that you take lightly as well. To say that Nanoha is hardly a serious serie due to the lack of deaths of any important character is IMO false.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:31   Link #165
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Then you probably have not seen or understood some story elements from A's and Strikers if you thought the entire serie was full of fluff. In fact Fate's backstory in the first serie is hardly a matter that you take lightly as well
Nice strawman.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:33   Link #166
hyl
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Yeah, I don't particularly view Nanoha as the most serious thing, especially when

Spoiler:
Which refers to this. Having a complementary reason without any other reasons makes overall that statement fairly weak
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:34   Link #167
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Why yes, that's a side effect of teh secks. It is not the primary purpose, but people sure are interested!
Sex's primary [biological] purpose is reproduction, which may or may not be as "primary" once taken out of its original context.

Quote:
And what about the art part? Sex can be used as many different types of symbolism and concepts in fiction that don't all end up ultimately as fap material.
All of those things weren't even intended as "fap material" to begin with.
Which is kind of different from the majority of hentai out there.

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Regardless, this is oversimplifying the issue.
Maybe, but I personally don't see the need to make things more complicated when they could easily be simplified.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:36   Link #168
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Which refers to this.
How do you misconstrue not serious as fluff?
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:37   Link #169
zarqu
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
Which refers to this. Also try actually defending your own statement with good reasons then inbstead of not trying to answer anything.
This is a not a statement of how a show should be construed. Rather, it's a statement about an entire franchise. It's hyperbolic, yes, but it conveys the point: when watching Nanoha I just don't feel that any of the characters are in real danger.

I think it's exactly this feeling of suspense that separates the lighthearted shows from the more serious ones. It all comes back to the general tone of the show.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:41   Link #170
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
It's the primary [biological] purpose, which may or may not be as "primary" once taken out of its original context.

Maybe, but I personally don't see the need to make things more complicated when they could easily be simplified.
Nothing wrong with that. But there's just too many variation to fit into neat little boxes, especially if we're shifting into semantics.

Quote:
All of those things weren't even intended as "fap material" to begin with.
Which is kind of different from the majority of hentai out there.
Yes, that's my point. Things have multiple purposes and uses regardless of the original core matters.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:48   Link #171
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Originally Posted by Archon_Wing View Post
Yes, that's my point. Things have multiple purposes and uses regardless of the original core matters.
And my point is that there's always a "primary" purpose for anything at any given context, while the rest are all collateral benefits.

Context: ecchi/fanservice anime - Primary purpose: arousal.

Context: biology - Primary purpose (of sex): Reproduction.
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:49   Link #172
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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
I can't see how just the action scenes could be separated from the general tone of the show. I mean, they could be separeted, but what would be gained by doing that?
That was basically my view as well. You could separate the elements, but I honestly don't see why it needs to be. There are obviously shows that are entirely serious in tone/nature and thus basically devoid of sexual fanservice throughout (so inserted it into any scene could be problematic and mood-breaking if not done in a suitable way). There are works that tend to bit split down the middle as light-hearted comedy/fanservice and serious action, such that in theory one could focus on one part and ignore the other for the most part. But there are also shows that blend the two such that the fanservice aspect is present throughout. I suppose this last model means that people who don't really enjoy the fanservice but would at least like to enjoy the action aspect may find themselves unable to do so. But I think, despite this, it is still a valid approach that fits the tone of certain kinds of works (but obviously not all).

Anyway, as was pointed out, we're in the phase of repeating opinions now, and the thread has also devolved into some other odd tangents too. So I'm tempted to say the conversation has basically run its course and may be heading for a lock, but we'll see.


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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
Context: ecchi/fanservice anime - Primary purpose: arousal.
That's... quite an assertion you've made. Then again, I personally wouldn't say that "ecchi/fanservice anime" is a genre. Usually, the genre is "romantic comedy", or "harem action" or some other combination. So if I watch a romantic comedy more for the comedy, then the fanservice/"ecchi" tends to support that. You're not necessarily going to be aroused; you may just laugh. I'm not sure that I can really agree with your assertion, all in all.

But as was said, opinions...
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-01-13 at 00:16. Reason: moved tangent to other thread
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Old 2013-01-12, 22:51   Link #173
hyl
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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
This is a not a statement of how a show should be construed. Rather, it's a statement about an entire franchise. It's hyperbolic, yes, but it conveys the point: when watching Nanoha I just don't feel that any of the characters are in real danger.

I think it's exactly this feeling of suspense that separates the lighthearted shows from the more serious ones. It all comes back to the general tone of the show.
There are other elements to look for when analyzing the tone of the serie.

The tone is not light with examples like when you have a character who is clone who could not take the place of the original in the eyes of a mother. So that mother pretty much discards the clone and only uses her to ressurect her deceased child.

Or the harsh recovery that Nanoha had to live thorugh after she nearly died from a mission in a flashback in Strikers due to her own inability to see her own limits at that time.

edit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
And my point is that there's always a "primary" purpose for anything at any given context, while the rest are all collateral benefits.

Context: ecchi/fanservice anime - Primary purpose: arousal.

Context: biology - Primary purpose (of sex): Reproduction.
That's the same as saying that the primary purpose of an eroge is arousal because it always has sex scenes in it, which is very often not true for lot of people.
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:03   Link #174
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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
And my point is that there's always a "primary" purpose for anything at any given context, while the rest are all collateral benefits.

Context: ecchi/fanservice anime - Primary purpose: arousal.

Which is fine. I just happen to be more interested in the numerous collateral ones which to the subjective view ultimately can end up as a significant peripheral demographic. While you could be right to generalize by the default, there's a lot of smaller and yet still valid ones.

I think Relentless sorta got this point better than myself, though.
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-01-13 at 00:16. Reason: moved tangent to other thread
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:11   Link #175
zarqu
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One of my pet peeves is the "subjetive vs. fact" debate. Yes, you hated something or you loved something. Those are facts. You really did love/hate a series.

I'm only interested in the why. When we are discussing works of art, the're are no factual differences. There are only qualitative differences between different arguments. Why exactly do you think what you think? Yes, A loved C. And yes, B hated C. But why?

All the fun ensues from a clash of different set of priorities: someone might focus on logical storytelling while someone else might focus on visual and "artistic" aspects of a show. Etc. Discussion happens in a free marketplace of ideas. Ideally.

edit: Posting before lock.
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:17   Link #176
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
That's... quite an assertion you've made. Then again, I personally wouldn't say that "ecchi/fanservice anime" is a genre.
Genre, category, nice little box... Call it as you like, as long as it can help you distinguish shows from one another.

Quote:
Usually, the genre is "romantic comedy", or "harem action" or some other combination. So if I watch a romantic comedy more for the comedy, then the fanservice/"ecchi" tends to support that. You're not necessarily going to be aroused; you may just laugh.
Depends on the amount of "fanservice" present and how much the series revolves around it.
Plus, it's not like the two things are mutually exclusive. You may laugh at it while also feeling aroused.
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:19   Link #177
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That's the same as saying that the primary purpose of an eroge is arousal because it always has sex scenes in it, which is very often not true for lot of people.
And, in that spirit, I would admit that -- personally speaking -- I often don't find even the sex scenes in eroge particularly arousing. This is why, generally speaking, I only want to read stories that are primarily romantic and where the ero content is in that context. I'm obviously not opposed to those sorts of scenes, but if a scene is not also being romantic at the same time, I'll probably lose interest. Am I doing it wrong?

It's in the same way that I can say that I don't treat the fanservice in most anime as a venue to be "aroused". Usually it's more cute and silly than anything else. And that's pretty much why I can sometimes even forget that it's there when there's something else going on. It's just a part of the scene, but my attention isn't focused on that to the exclusion of everyone else. (Of course it depends on the show and the nature of the scenes.)

But all this thread just goes to say that every person sees things differently, even if they're all "seeing" the same thing. The brain is a marvellous and mysterious thing...


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Originally Posted by Dahak86 View Post
Depends on the amount of "fanservice" present and how much the series revolves around it.
Plus, it's not like the two things are mutually exclusive. You may laugh at it while also feeling aroused.
Quite true, and fair enough. And, to the point above, each person is different.


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Originally Posted by zarqu View Post
All the fun ensues from a clash of different set of priorities: someone might focus on logical storytelling while someone else might focus on visual and "artistic" aspects of a show. Etc. Discussion happens in a free marketplace of ideas. Ideally.
Indeed. Discussion is the process of understanding how (and perhaps some snippet of why) each person sees things differently. Again, ideally. That's why things like personal attacks are forbidden because then people are just yelling at each other, rather than expounding their own point of view.
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:20   Link #178
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Indeed there is nothing wrong inherently with fanservice. It's all about how it's employed and that is the more general point I have been trying to make. In the case of something like VRO, well I cannot say. Strike Witches made exceptionally poor use of it though.

Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-01-13 at 00:15. Reason: moved tangent to other thread
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:23   Link #179
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
So if I watch a romantic comedy more for the comedy, then the fanservice/"ecchi" tends to support that. You're not necessarily going to be aroused; you may just laugh.
This is me, right here. And while I will admit that the sex slapstick comedy is something people may be tired of, that's often not the only kind of comedy found in romantic comedies. So to me, the fanservice is simply a venue for one kind of joke, and if it doesn't land, there's probably another one coming up in a few minutes. Something like Seitokai Yakuindomo works entirely on this principal. It does have some fanservice and more than a few smutty elements, but it's doing it to draw out laughs instead.
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Old 2013-01-12, 23:28   Link #180
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
And, in that spirit, I would admit that -- personally speaking -- I often don't find even the sex scenes in eroge particularly arousing. This is why, generally speaking, I only want to read stories that are primarily romantic and where the ero content is in that context. I'm obviously not opposed to those sorts of scenes, but if a scene is not also being romantic at the same time, I'll probably lose interest. Am I doing it wrong?
I would fathom that you might be doing it right.

I think it's reasonable to make these 2 assumptions:

-- A loving couple may end up having sex.
-- A loving couple will do other things other than having sex.

I mean it makes perfect sense, if it's put together well. I really can't judge it badly.

So yea, I don't think it'd be right for the commonly held opinion of people on the outside to dismiss it as just porn. But this isn't easy. I do sometimes, and I would like to blame it on living in a very sex negative yet very sexualized society.


Quote:
It's in the same way that I can say that I don't treat the fanservice in most anime as a venue to be "aroused". Usually it's more cute and silly than anything else. And that's pretty much why I can sometimes even forget that it's there when there's something else going on. It's just a part of the scene, but my attention isn't focused on that to the exclusion of everyone else. (Of course it depends on the show and the nature of the scenes.)
Yea, cuteness is also central to many an anime.

BTW, I made a quip before VRO aired..

Quote:
it might be easy to imagine that people like myself are going to watch the show with their pants unzipped (which is blatantly false, my pants don't have zippers) there can be certain levels of appreciation of appealing material that doesn't involve actually getting off to it. I mean, this is why there are models that aren't porn stars of course.
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