AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Psycho-Pass

Notices

View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 13 Rating
Perfect 10 18 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 26 43.33%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 14 23.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 1 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.67%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-01-18, 01:16   Link #41
kk2extreme
Your wife is hot...
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: At your house fixing A/C
Makishima is the son of the director, may be?

May be the director is the true final boss...
kk2extreme is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 01:20   Link #42
Mandarake
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
Maybe those "mistakes" happen oh so rarely (but with Butcher at the helm, we have reason to believe they don't) but, well, do you think it's worth it to randomly turn three or so people a year into chili when they MIGHT actually be innocent? ...Would you install a computer in place of a police chief, let alone in place of your president/prime minister? I think enough of us have seen "2001" to know the answer to that question.
Yes, is it worth the sacrifice of the very few for the greater good? That's one of the tough questions Urobochi wants us to think about, and I don't pretend to have an answer. But what I want to avoid is a cop out - avoiding the harder question by assuming that there is something irretrievably wrong with Sybil. If Sybil is so broken and evil then the answer is really easy: get rid of it. But the question becomes much harder and less black-and-white if you accept the premise that Sybil works and works very well. Remember, the current criminal justice system in the US appears to be sacrificing way more than just 3 per year. Would Sybil be a better alternative if it were available?

Don't hold your breath for Urobuchi to give us the answer. I think his point is to raise the issue and provoke thought and discussion. There may not be a single Solomonic answer.

As for machines taking over, the director's explanation makes that a non-issue in this story. They recognize that the system is imperfect, and that human discretion in the form of enforcers need to stay part of the system. The director also pointed out it was important to maintain the public's faith in Sybil or it will be overthrown. Thus, ultimately Sybil serves only while its human masters are satisfied with its performance. It remains subservient to the human will, not the other way around. The decision to submit to Sybil was a choice freely made by society, which can be revoked anytime society sees fit to do so.
Mandarake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 01:38   Link #43
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeroz View Post
Don't forget another topic that was discussed in this episode.

The machine is not perfect, which is why you have the enforcers and the inspectors to guide them. You can place a lot of trust into this 99.9999% accurate system, but you can still use your own judgement when the extreme outliers happened. As much as it can also be used as an assurance for the public, the system does work like that.
Yeah. I think maybe the most telling line in this episode was "If the system is absolutely perfect, it shouldn't even require humans to operate it" for all their self-importance and status as basically the overlords of humanity, Sybil is ultimately run by fallible human beings (who don't even appear to be prominent public figures like presidents and whatnot), which is why an entire society of people leaving all of their life decisions up to them is kind of insane.

Of course one might argue that the situation in the real world is not so different, but here there's at least the illusion of choice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kk2extreme View Post
Makishima is the son of the director, may be?

May be the director is the true final boss...
I wonder whom people would root for if it came down to her or Makishima. Though most likely both will ultimately be rejected by the protagonists.
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 01:40   Link #44
BoyTitan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Buffalo,Newyork
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlareKnight View Post
I have to say, damn good job Akane. God knows it'd be understandable to just fall into a pit of despair and take a month off after something that traumatizing. Instead she goes through the hurt, cries at the funeral, but thinks about what she can do in order to get Makishima. Even if it means reliving that traumatic experience she'll do what is necessary to catch him. Definitely growing into a detective with some real guts.
That happened cause she is not normal not cause she is determined her pyscho pass does not get clouded.

I keep having the feeling this series is going to have a bad ending due to most stories about utopian societys having bad endings. The most positive ending to a utopian society I ever seen or read was in No.6 which wasn't 100% a happy ending. Just don't see how this series could have a good ending and everyone is flagged almost. Akane could go the route of Makishima, Ginos Crime Coefficient could go up. Ginos father could die. Kogami going lone cause he wants to kill Makishima not just bring him in this is least likely tho I feel Kogami would want to bring him to justice not kill him. Still the set up screams bad ending.
__________________
BoyTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 01:43   Link #45
Triple_R
Center Attraction
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
Age: 33
Send a message via AIM to Triple_R
Particularly at this juncture, I think that it's a serious mistake to focus simply on the crime side of things when evaluating the Sibyl System.

The Sibyl System's overall impact on culture, health, and personal freedom goes way, way beyond its impact on the criminal justice system alone.

Sibyl has "authorized" music (shown in Episode 12), and has essentially banned certain forms of art (shown during the Oryo arc). It's very difficult for me to see how a person who truly believes in Freedom of Expression could support the Sibyl system.

A point I raised a few episodes back that may bear repeating here: Urobuchi's own Saya no Uta would almost certainly not survive the scrutiny of the Sibyl system. So do you really think that Urobuchi would feel ambivalence or uncertainty towards a system that would outlaw one (if not more) of his own works? Most artists tend to not take kindly to that sort of thing...


What this episode does is basically explain where the gatekeepers of the Sibyl system are coming from. It shows how highly they value "Law and Order". It explains the rationale behind the system, and why it remains in place. There's moral ambiguity here in the sense that the people that are charged with overseeing the enforcement of the Sibyl system do seem to genuinely believe in it. And that's fine. It's better if the Sibyl system has people overseeing its enforcement that truly believe in it than people who are moustache-twirling villains who support Sibyl just because it enables their personal aggrandizement and/or empowerment. It's worth noting that the people in the upper echelons of "The Party" of Orwell's 1984 similarly believed in "Big Brother"... but that doesn't mean that Orwell himself intended his readership to feel ambivalence towards or uncertainty over "Big Brother" and what "he" represents.


I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

I think a strong case can be made that the people living in the world of Psycho-Pass have given up essential liberty. In fairness, the safety they've gained may well be more than "temporary" but I doubt that Franklin would agree with the overall trade.


But in fairness to our protagonists, it's hard to see what practical choice they have. Certainly Makishima is a serious threat that has killed people that are close to members of the police force. It only makes sense that Kogami and Akane would want to take him down.

My sense is Akane is one of those kinds of people that are invaluable in virtually any conceivable society. She has an inner strength, a fervent practicality, and a overwhelming desire to do good and effect positive change. She tends to see the strengths, the positives, the upsides; so she makes the best of whatever context she's living in and has to work with. She's an optimist at heart, and maybe that's partly why her Psycho-Pass is so resolutely clear.


In any event, excellent episode. I look forward to more.
__________________
Triple_R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 02:31   Link #46
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
We should probably get it out of the way and basically admit that the society in Psycho-Pass is pretty much a totalitarian oligarchy. One that does try to heavily regulate society in order to ensure prosperity. No matter how you look at it, it's tyranny, just like Rina in episode 12 explained. I think if anyone is supposed to represent "our" viewpoint about what this society is like, I think it's her. And somehow, I think we'll be seeing Rina again. If nothing else, to provide contrast to...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
But in fairness to our protagonists, it's hard to see what practical choice they have. Certainly Makishima is a serious threat that has killed people that are close to members of the police force. It only makes sense that Kogami and Akane would want to take him down.
Lets keep in mind. At this point, from Kougami and Akane's perspective, Makishima is just nothing but a wanton murderer. And I don't think anybody would argue that even dictatorships don't have the right to pursue wanton murderers and criminals.

Now the question comes up, "Is Makishima a revolutionary?". If so, I can't help but think his group of psychopaths is gonna get contrasted to Rina's pro democratic revolutionaries. One can see similarities. In the most basic sense, they're both complaining about lack of human freedom to express themselves...but their methodology really makes me doubt that they're remotely on the same wave length. So far, Makishima hasn't expressed his criticism of the Sybil system in terms of political dissent. He doesn't seem particularly bothered by a lack of political freedom, freedom of speech or democratic ideals within the SYbil system. He seems more fundamentally concerned in how it stifles human ability to carry out their desires.


Yet this brings up the question of WHO Makishima wishes to see able to carry out their desires. So far, everything Makishima has done has seemed to be nothing more than the frivolous indulgence of mass murderers. He's certainly not interested in the unfulfilled ambitions and desires of the common people he's helped to murder. And his encounter with Akane seems to suggest he overwhelmingly conceives of such accomplishments as being inherently predatory. Somehow I have a hard time imagining Makishima being a "For the greater good" kind of character, and more of a "for the benefit of people like me (Serial killers)".


If the democratic revolutionaries introduced in Episode 12 crossed paths with Makishima's group, I somehow don't think it'd end well. Especially if Rina misidentified Makishima as being some kind of freedom fighter, as opposed to the kind of monster that would be a threat to ANY organized society.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 02:36   Link #47
BoyTitan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Buffalo,Newyork
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandarake View Post
Yes, is it worth the sacrifice of the very few for the greater good? That's one of the tough questions Urobochi wants us to think about, and I don't pretend to have an answer. But what I want to avoid is a cop out - avoiding the harder question by assuming that there is something irretrievably wrong with Sybil. If Sybil is so broken and evil then the answer is really easy: get rid of it. But the question becomes much harder and less black-and-white if you accept the premise that Sybil works and works very well. Remember, the current criminal justice system in the US appears to be sacrificing way more than just 3 per year. Would Sybil be a better alternative if it were available?

Don't hold your breath for Urobuchi to give us the answer. I think his point is to raise the issue and provoke thought and discussion. There may not be a single Solomonic answer.

As for machines taking over, the director's explanation makes that a non-issue in this story. They recognize that the system is imperfect, and that human discretion in the form of enforcers need to stay part of the system. The director also pointed out it was important to maintain the public's faith in Sybil or it will be overthrown. Thus, ultimately Sybil serves only while its human masters are satisfied with its performance. It remains subservient to the human will, not the other way around. The decision to submit to Sybil was a choice freely made by society, which can be revoked anytime society sees fit to do so.
You dont read stories about utopian societys much do you. Sybil controls almost everything not just the law quit looking at it from a are justice system vs theres sorta view.

To start this is my first time watching a Urobuchi work maybe in his other works he likes the viewers to ask more question but you are over complicating this big time, He has made it PAINFULLY CLEAR Sybil is bad. Utopian societies are bad. Heck I never heard of some one trying to make one sound good they are usually always BAD. Machines running humans has always been shown to go bad that I don't get so much why do people fear technology so much.

1 Lets look at its flaws lower human life expectancy they covered this in the series. People are so worried about not ever getting stressed ,And dealing with the long hours and job they are given to the point were they are doping them selves up that by the time they stop working they are nthn more than lifeless zombies literally.

2 Decides jobs for you this means you are stuck with what ever dead end job it gives you for life.

3 Is severely against the majority of any form of art or entertainment you would go to jail were you would either accept your prison or be put to death sooner or later just for watching a show like psycho pass, Music is controlled we saw this last ep so listening to certain music is a crime, Performing music with out it being accepted by Sybil is a crime, Sybil gets less lenient now former licensed artist and musicians can be determined criminals just for doing what they were given the ok to do. Long work hours you don't have a say. Media is controlled threw Sybil question it and you are now a criminal. Like to read something slightly dark like William Shakespeare you are now a criminal.Like violent video games think we can see were this is going.

4 Tho most justice systems fail at rehabilitation sylbil is far worse, And Sybil has such a low count for false criminals being killed or imprisoned cause it is always right. If a girl psycho pass went up after being raped and a blood thirsty enforcer killed her in Sybil's eyes that was correct. If some one has a minor temper problem criminal for life, psycho pass goes up cause of the dead end job sybil gives you guess what off to jail criminal for life, I could go on and on how it is playing god and thought police. But the icing on the cake the millions of people imprisoned stay there for life or die sybil rehabilitates 1 in a million people. You either stay in a small white room till you die isolated from society hoping to come out one day, And if you stop hoping to leave feel you are getting a raw deal you get killed for going against sybil. Now lets think if you were sad over lets say you're mom or dad dieing something like that can lead you such a fate for life. I really cant believe you just defended sybil as flawed as it is.

What I do wana know who gains power from sybil there is either, A group of people who gain wealth and power from it, Or a group of sick humans who think that sybil works and humans don't deserve free will. Or a combination of the 2.

QFT "We should probably get it out of the way and basically admit that the society in Psycho-Pass is pretty much a totalitarian oligarchy. One that does try to heavily regulate society in order to ensure prosperity. No matter how you look at it, it's tyranny, just like Rina in episode 12 explained. I think if anyone is supposed to represent "our" viewpoint about what this society is like "
__________________
BoyTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 02:48   Link #48
Xaturas
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Dunno why but I think the head chief woman is mother of shogo or at least related to him. If that's not the case the its some kind of personal revenge and we all know what *making people disappear* mean.
__________________
Xaturas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 02:51   Link #49
andyjay729
YOU EEDIOT!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I'm right behind you
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Particularly at this juncture, I think that it's a serious mistake to focus simply on the crime side of things when evaluating the Sibyl System.

The Sibyl System's overall impact on culture, health, and personal freedom goes way, way beyond its impact on the criminal justice system alone.

...I believe it was Benjamin Franklin who said "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."

But in fairness to our protagonists, it's hard to see what practical choice they have. Certainly Makishima is a serious threat that has killed people that are close to members of the police force. It only makes sense that Kogami and Akane would want to take him down.
I certainly agree. But unfortunately, it's all too easy for a dictator or even a large section of society to turn so harshly toward law and order that liberty gets swept under the rug. A lot of average folks in this world probably care less about the arts and free expression. So, as the possible cyborg lady was saying, it might take only a criminal who somehow escaped judgement by Sybil to damage public trust in the System. As Mandarake said, I don't think it'll get completely replaced (this future world is too much invested in it), but hopefully it will be reformed.

I certainly don't think of Makishima as any kind of hero. But he is a lot like Kyubey--a complete sociopath with a point (and white hair). I don't know whether he is a true revolutionary with a cause like Rina or "just wants to watch the world burn", but...I'm not quite sure how to finish that sentence.
andyjay729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 03:04   Link #50
BoyTitan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Buffalo,Newyork
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
I certainly agree. But unfortunately, it's all too easy for a dictator or even a large section of society to turn so harshly toward law and order that liberty gets swept under the rug. A lot of average folks in this world probably care less about the arts and free expression. So, as the possible cyborg lady was saying, it might take only a criminal who somehow escaped judgement by Sybil to damage public trust in the System. As Mandarake said, I don't think it'll get completely replaced (this future world is too much invested in it), but hopefully it will be reformed.

I certainly don't think of Makishima as any kind of hero. But he is a lot like Kyubey--a complete sociopath with a point (and white hair). I don't know whether he is a true revolutionary with a cause like Rina or "just wants to watch the world burn", but...I'm not quite sure how to finish that sentence.
Thats why I said earlier bad ending incoming. How can a world so broken be fixed, Sorta like the world we live in just even more broken and corrupt. No he is not the job want to watch the world burn type then again whats the difference between some one with a purpose like Rina and Some one who wants to watch the world burn. Joker is a mad man who killed millions and can justify his actions in his sick twisted words.
__________________
BoyTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 03:09   Link #51
Allium
I say FRY-Y
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The pale blue dot...
I wasn't surprised at all when Masaoka and Ginoza were revealed to be father and son, as there had been many clues throughout the series up till now. However, at the end of their exchange, I got the implication that something bad will happen to either of them, or even both. They had already set up a lot of 'flags' anyway...

Akane does have guts; she was brave enough to volunteer to have her memories extracted. And I think Masaoka is precisely correct about Akane and her ability to stabilize her hue. She accepts society for what it is, but still sticks to what she believes in. Perhaps Akane will catch Makishima's eye sooner or later.

The scene with the director at the end was creepy. She did come off as cyborg-like to me. The way she addressed Makishima makes me think they're somehow related, or were/are involved in working together. Either way, it's an eerie foreboding, and with the director involved, it's as if there's some big conspiracy behind all the incidents...
__________________
Allium is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 03:41   Link #52
Mandarake
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
We should probably get it out of the way and basically admit that the society in Psycho-Pass is pretty much a totalitarian oligarchy. One that does try to heavily regulate society in order to ensure prosperity. No matter how you look at it, it's tyranny, just like Rina in episode 12 explained.
Absolutely. Sybil's benefits come at a price that many of us who cherish individual freedoms and subscribe to the concept of limited government would find exorbitant. It is tyranny. Just don't forget that it is a tyranny of a democractic majority. There is no indication that Sybil was forcibly imposed on an unwilling population and thereafter perpetuated by a dictatorship. Instead, it seems that Sybil serves at the pleasure of the people and remains in place only because the vast majority of them are happy with what they got in exchange for what they surrendered. And based on what the director said, that could change quickly if public faith in Sybil is disturbed. So indications are that the political system remains responsive to the popular will.

Not that it matters to the point I'm trying to make, but for the record I don't like Sybil either. I did not bother to say so earlier because I tought it was pretty obvious that this was a hypothetical exercise. Sybil is not anywhere close to coming true. Relax.

Oh, and the world of Psychopass is not utopian I don't think; it strikes me as very dystopian from the word go.

Last edited by Mandarake; 2013-01-18 at 08:34.
Mandarake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 04:57   Link #53
Vicious108
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Now the question comes up, "Is Makishima a revolutionary?". If so, I can't help but think his group of psychopaths is gonna get contrasted to Rina's pro democratic revolutionaries. One can see similarities. In the most basic sense, they're both complaining about lack of human freedom to express themselves...but their methodology really makes me doubt that they're remotely on the same wave length. So far, Makishima hasn't expressed his criticism of the Sybil system in terms of political dissent. He doesn't seem particularly bothered by a lack of political freedom, freedom of speech or democratic ideals within the SYbil system. He seems more fundamentally concerned in how it stifles human ability to carry out their desires.
This makes perfect sense given his Ubermensch-esque philosophy. Ultimately politics are but a creation of man and one which is by definition intended to influence people's beliefs, and Makishima's wish is precisely for people to rid themselves of such influences and act based on their own will. Not just politics, but science and technology as well, have robbed people of the freedom to follow their own desires. As he put it as regards Rikako's father "His talent was killed by science and technology and his soul was killed by society." And so he stands as someone who lives outside the constraints of society on every level, following his own code and encouraging those who have had their wills suppressed by said constraints to do the same. Basically, his revolution is more of the philosophical sort, rather than your typical political uprising. If Risa is trying to change things from within by bettering the system (arguable given her resistance force's anarchistic methods, but still), Makishima is trying to get people to free themselves from the existence of a system altogether.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Yet this brings up the question of WHO Makishima wishes to see able to carry out their desires. So far, everything Makishima has done has seemed to be nothing more than the frivolous indulgence of mass murderers. He's certainly not interested in the unfulfilled ambitions and desires of the common people he's helped to murder. And his encounter with Akane seems to suggest he overwhelmingly conceives of such accomplishments as being inherently predatory. Somehow I have a hard time imagining Makishima being a "For the greater good" kind of character, and more of a "for the benefit of people like me (Serial killers)".
Or he's just not concerned with morality and thus believes anyone should have the freedom to express themselves, even those with deviant and unscrupulous desires, who (in his eyes) have no obligation to suppress their wills for the sake of society. It's actually very reminiscent of the philosophy of another of Gen's characters in Fate/Zero…
Spoiler:

To them, what matters is that people act in their own self-interest, regardless of what that interest may entail and without taking into consideration how it may affect the well-being of others. So, ethical egoism, basically.

Which, of course, is in no way a quality of a "for a greater good" kind of character, but it still doesn't mean he's just doing it because he's biased towards serial killers like him. After all, he gave Kougami a fighting chance and allowed him to kill Senguuji when the latter was a protege of his carrying out his own desires. So if anything he doesn't mind the killings of common people with unfulfilled desires of their own because he sees anything as fair game when it comes to the freedom to express oneself. Of course you could still claim he's biased towards serial killers because they are the only ones he seems to go out of his way to assist, but that inclination could also be related to the point he's trying to make, in that people like serial killers are probably the best example of people who must suppress their will and desires for the sake of society.

At least, that's my interpretation of an admittedly complex and still relatively mysterious character.
Vicious108 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 07:10   Link #54
Mandarake
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
So do you really think that Urobuchi would feel ambivalence or uncertainty towards a system that would outlaw one (if not more) of his own works? Most artists tend to not take kindly to that sort of thing...
Obviously not. But let me turn it around and ask an equally obvious question: don't you think an artist like Urobuchi would relish the creative challenge of making an audience root for a system that on its face is morally repugnant?

We don't need Urobuchi to tell us that a system that curtails creative expression, limits lifestyle choices and deprives one of liberty or even life based solely on mental propensity is perverse. That's just stone cold obvious, and if that was all there was to this story, then Urobuchi is not showing us anything new.

It follows that a protagonist that unflinchingly upholds such an abhorrent system should instantly strike us as an amoral idiot and lose all our empathy after no more than half an episode.

But Akane, Kougami and the rest of the enforcers are nothing if not loyal agents of such a system. Yet here we are halfway into the season and we still care deeply about what they do and what happens to them and we very much want them to succeed, even if that would consitute a victory for the ostensibly evil Sybil system.

How did Urobuchi manage this?

There is something to the fact that the villains are truly monstrous. But if it were just a matter of rooting for the lesser evil Psychopass would not be as compelling as it is.

I submit that Urobuchi has somehow managed to create a context that makes Sybil appear worthy of the enforcers' obedience and support, despite our deeply held contrary beliefs. If it isn't because Sybil actually works as advertised and delivers benefits somewhat commensurate to what it demands, then tell me what else it could be.

Last edited by Mandarake; 2013-01-18 at 08:12.
Mandarake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 07:10   Link #55
kari-no-sugata
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
A couple of quick thoughts:

I don't know if this was intended at all but it feels like this Sybil-based society could be an example of "Tyranny of the majority". It's pretty close at least, even if the majority don't have much of a real 'vote' anymore. I wonder if the present system was actually voted in, with a referendum?

With humans, people accept a certain amount of error and someone who is correct 90%+ of the time would be considered very reliable. But with technology in a criminal justice system, even 99.999% can be considered dangerously unreliable. Compare a 'identity parade' (aka police lineup) with 1-in-6 chance vs DNA testing.

It's interesting that the show decided to deliberately highlight the use of inspectors and enforcers as being part of the solution. I agree that the system has to be 'perfect' for it to be accepted. I wonder if the algorithms for the "Sybil system" are fixed (carved in stone, as it were) or whether they can be patched at all?

I doubt that the director is a relative of Makishima - I don't think she'd refer to him as "Shogo-kun" if he was a relative. Quite possibly an underling of some kind though - maybe they worked together in the past?

PS Glad that Akane was more like an adult in this episode. I wonder how 'special' she really is.
__________________
kari-no-sugata is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 07:38   Link #56
jeroz
Art Block Specialist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoyTitan View Post
If some one has a minor temper problem criminal for life, psycho pass goes up cause of the dead end job sybil gives you guess what off to jail criminal for life
From past evidence:
coerced by the criminal into thinking she must protect herself from the "evil" enforcers: 110 [tranq required, no further action needed]
held hostage by a desperate criminal without being lied to: 98 [nothing]
reliving the memories of best friend being killed and gain a sense of vengeance: 70

How bad is your dead end job has to be in order for you to get detained? Just how crazy is your rage has to be for your "minor temper problem" to raise your CC to the level that you needed to be jailed?
__________________
She's not Mary Sue, she's Hajime-su!
jeroz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 09:02   Link #57
andyjay729
YOU EEDIOT!!!
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: I'm right behind you
Age: 32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandarake View Post
Obviously not. But let me turn it around and ask an equally obvious question: don't you think an artist like Urobuchi would relish the creative challenge of making an audience root for a system that on its face is morally repugnant?

We don't need Urobuchi to tell us that a system that curtails creative expression, limits lifestyle choices and deprives one of liberty or even life based solely on mental propensity is perverse. That's just stone cold obvious, and if that was all there was to this story, then Urobuchi is not showing us anything new.

It follows that a protagonist that unflinchingly upholds such an abhorrent system should instantly strike us as an amoral idiot and lose all our empathy after no more than half an episode.

But Akane, Kougami and the rest of the enforcers are nothing if not loyal agents of such a system. Yet here we are halfway into the season and we still care deeply about what they do and what happens to them and we very much want them to succeed, even if that would consitute a victory for the ostensibly evil Sybil system.

How did Urobuchi manage this?

There is something to the fact that the villains are truly monstrous. But if it were just a matter of rooting for the lesser evil Psychopass would not be as compelling as it is.

I submit that Urobuchi has somehow managed to create a context that makes Sybil appear worthy of the enforcers' obedience and support, despite our deeply held contrary beliefs. If it isn't because Sybil actually works as advertised and delivers benefits somewhat commensurate to what it demands, then tell me what else it could be.
I kinda agree with you on this one. It would be an interesting twist to have the "good guys" be a corrupt, overbearing legal system, with the possible overall message, "be careful of where our own society is going".

But given Rina's stance, and of course the fact that the System was unable to judge Makishima, I stand by my belief that the System is ultimately also a villain here, whether or not Makishima is somehow affiliated with them (although I've actually been wondering that for a while). Heh, whether or not making Sybil "the good guys" by default would be good writing, I can't quite see Urobuchi making even a default hero out of a legal system that would permaban his works (and probably stick him in that maximum-security prison ).
andyjay729 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 09:29   Link #58
Roger Rambo
Sensei, aishite imasu
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Hong Kong Shatterdome
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicious108 View Post
*snip*
See, I think you're giving WAY too much credit to Makishima in terms of wanting to empower "people". Cause so far, he's actually shown very little interest in empowering people to fulfill their desires. So far it's seemed like the only suppressed desires that he's interested in being allowed to be expressed are all murderous ones. Perhaps he's been doing other things, but with Makishima's high standards when it comes to serial killers entertaining him philosophically, I somehow can't see him cultivating a normal to be a normal unregistered musician. Makishima did give Kougami a fighting chance...but I suspect that was largely because he saw potential in Kougami to become someone like him. A predator. But if you want to give everyone the hypothetical right to be predators, only the strongest and most viscous will be at the top of the food chain. That's why talking about Makishima wanting to allow *people* the freedom to express their true selves is preposterous. For the kind of things Makishima is interested in, most people are simply exotic cattle to be slaughtered. The only *true* people are predators like him.

That's why Akane disappointed him when she failed to meet his standards of a predator. Because that just made her cattle in his mind. A non person. And before anybody gets too adamant about the need to "consider" Makishima's viewpoint, keep in mind. You'd be nothing better than an animal to him.




My main point is that if Makishima considers it wrong for society to repress wanton sadistic homicidal urges, then there probably isn't an organized society in human history that he'd be happy in. Makishima may happen to live in a Totalitarian oligarchy, but that's not REALLY what' he's revolting against. His base complaint would put him up against any human society. It's a contrast to Rina who wants to turn this totalitarian oligarchy into something more democratic. But even if Makishima lived in such an egalitarian and enlightened democracy, can you really say his opinion of it would be much different than the Sybill system?



Psycho-Pass is to me looking Alien VS Predator. Whoever wins, regular people lose. It's just a matter of who winning is the worst for us. And unless you're an unrealistic romantic, I don't think you can say legitimate anarchy is somehow more benign.
Roger Rambo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 09:34   Link #59
BoyTitan
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Buffalo,Newyork
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandarake View Post
Obviously not. But let me turn it around and ask an equally obvious question: don't you think an artist like Urobuchi would relish the creative challenge of making an audience root for a system that on its face is morally repugnant?

We don't need Urobuchi to tell us that a system that curtails creative expression, limits lifestyle choices and deprives one of liberty or even life based solely on mental propensity is perverse. That's just stone cold obvious, and if that was all there was to this story, then Urobuchi is not showing us anything new.

It follows that a protagonist that unflinchingly upholds such an abhorrent system should instantly strike us as an amoral idiot and lose all our empathy after no more than half an episode.

But Akane, Kougami and the rest of the enforcers are nothing if not loyal agents of such a system. Yet here we are halfway into the season and we still care deeply about what they do and what happens to them and we very much want them to succeed, even if that would consitute a victory for the ostensibly evil Sybil system.

How did Urobuchi manage this?

There is something to the fact that the villains are truly monstrous. But if it were just a matter of rooting for the lesser evil Psychopass would not be as compelling as it is.

I submit that Urobuchi has somehow managed to create a context that makes Sybil appear worthy of the enforcers' obedience and support, despite our deeply held contrary beliefs. If it isn't because Sybil actually works as advertised and delivers benefits somewhat commensurate to what it demands, then tell me what else it could be.
You are just over complicating it oh just noticed you are the same one who said sybil was better than the justice system we use let me re edit my post, Sybil was propossed to the masses based of its benefits alone and none of its flaws, Also it was slowly put out a little control at a time, To us the viewers knowledge we know it did not always control the law and we know it was once used with the same schooling system we have as a alternative,We also know it uses propaganda based on how people don't know about its flaws or how they think humans have longer life span when it is the shortest it has ever been since well before the modern era. A part of this is major drug addiction to keep a clear mind which is also not addressed.

1 Makishima has less character development thus we have no reason to attach to him he is a unkown evil we don't know what makes him tick so he is evil since he is unknown to us, We have been given no reason to Sympathize with him.Also there is the fact that he is part of the reason Kogami a character we have learned a lot about and have been conditioned to become attached to wile for the first half of the series makishima remained the faceless pure evil villian is responsible for the death of kogamis friend. So thus we will root for the main cast.

2 Plus the series is not driving in how bad sybil is well enough we have glimpses and clips but due to everyone just accepting the crappy hand sybil deals theres no one good with a free will to point how fd up it is. I posted all its evils earlier when some one was trying to defend sybil as not evil,evils the wrong word here Ill just say wrong.

3 Oh btw some people just like a good story who said we have to root for some one expecting a side to win. Sybil is much to established to get over thrown unless Uro pulls a cop out and sybil gets more strict to the point it trys to run humans even more and gets over thrown this anime is going to have a bad ending a sybil will stay.Just cause they work for the system does not mean we are rooting for it. Thats like reading 1984 or brave newworld saying you rooted for the system. I hope the series starts to drive home the point of how bad sybill is,When most the main cast of a group of likable people can not even go outside freely I would think that would be enough for people to realize sybill bad. Main reason we are rooting for the characters is so maybe just maybe they can change the system that 1 percent chance. Cause well most of them are freaking privileged prisoners what kinda life is that.

4 The ladys speech just made me dislike Sybil more that was to make us feel more uncomfortable and untrusting of sybil. She would not have the demeanor she has nor be introduced the way she has if she was supposed to be a trusting character. She is a bigger unknown evil than maki.

Jeroz come on man pay attention to the story we just learned it is very rare for some one to make it back into society after they have a clouded psycho pass, They told Akane she would be out soon with counseling we seen how there counseling is that was a fat out lie she will never be free again unless she has the luck of 1 in 3 million people.

Ever get stressed in school or at work now imagine if just that stress could land you in jail.Thats how a dead end job could land you in jail. Remember people are drugging themselves out to vegetative states to keep they're psycho pass clear.

Also I will use myself as a personal example I have been training in boxing as a kid an love mix martial arts there is nthn I enjoy more than mma, Now if hunting and most music is banned its pretty safe to assume combat sports are banned so what would happen to some one like me who loves them in sucha society, Or people like you who enjoy a show such as psycho pass, A show were if some one who enjoys Shakespeare is either drugged to a vegetative state to avoid imprisonment or hideing there hue what do you think enjoying a show like psyho pass would mean for are hue. All of us would most likely be criminals on the run,drugged up to keep a clear hue since we are contantly exposed to forms of media banned in that society that does not fit its way of thinking or in a small padded white cell for life with out human contact for the majority, now do you think sybil is a non evil and has any chance of being better than the albeit corrupt government we use.

Roger Rambo thanks you put into why i do not trust maki as far I could throw him into better words. Better yet the way you described was dead on forget not trusting him id out right kill him for my own safety.
__________________

Last edited by BoyTitan; 2013-01-18 at 10:17.
BoyTitan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-01-18, 10:13   Link #60
garbage
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
well it's finally confirmed, Masaoka is Ginoza'a Father. Totally called that though, along with some others here.

Also confirmed, something special about Akane's Psycho-pass seems different from Makishima though. While Makishima's PP doesn't seem to increase at all, Akane's does so (but doesn't go red), except that it has remarkable recovery capability. well it's possibly the same except that Makishima has more experience with it.

So true what the MWPSB head said, if Sibyl is perfect they wouldn't have any need for detectives and enforcers. wonder where the story would go from here, what would Akane being another special case like Makishima want to change with the system,or would she want to change anything at all? That's another difference between them it seems , from Masaoka's dialogue Akane's very accepting/tolerant of everything including their current society which is in contrast with Makishima who is against it.

oh i wonder what the Head is planning , seems she knows shogo(?), with both their hair white. would she be Shogo's mom ahahaha, you know symmetry
__________________
garbage is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:18.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.