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Old 2004-04-15, 20:07   Link #1
Muad'Dib
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Naruto without the Kyuubi

For starters, I apologize if this thread was done six or seven months ago. I looked for ten minutes, couldn't even mind a hint of something like this.

We've seen a lot of threads that dicuss whether Naruto is a genius or not. I would like to pose the question, how do you think Naruto would have progressed as a ninja had he not been sealed with the kyuubi?

This is not a simple question of, would he still good without the kyuubi's added power? It also deals with his personality issues, and how he developed as a child. Everyone in the village hated him for most of his life, and that passed on to his school friends-- causing Naruto to act up in class, acting like a moron a lot.

And while Naruto did train on his own, it was also difficult for him to control his own chakra because of the instability of the kyuubi's chakra molding into his own. This probably only irritated his situation with his school friends, causing them to not only think of him as an outcast, but also as a failure.

So, how would he have progressed if his chakra had been stable? If he had friends who respected him?

I for one think he could've been the number one rookie of his class. We've seen him exhibit moments of genius in strategy. He's outwitted an S-class criminal (Zabuza,) defeated on his own three genjutsu genins in the forest of death (with only his own chakra, I might add,) and done numerous other amazing things in times of desperation.

Of course, he's also shown stupidity in other situations--but I think that could just be a side effect of his rearing, or lack thereof. I think the moments of genius he has shown show what he would have been without the "black hell" of his childhood, or whatever it was that he called it.

Indeed, now that Naruto has found friends, we've seen him progress rapidly. He's learned the rasengan, a feat he might not have been able to do without the kyuubi's added chakra at his age, but an impressive feat of learning (it was the 4th's special jutsu after all--and Kakashi was about dumbfounded when he saw Naruto using it, I believe because it's way above his own skill level), and other advanced jutsus that require not only strength, but a high degree of skill.

So, what does everyone else think? Would Naruto's "hidden" genius we see glances of have been more of a prominent role in Naruto's formation as a ninja had he stable chakra and a loving environment?
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:16   Link #2
hob
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Most people say that Naruto's greatest strenght is his spirit. I Agree. What i don't agree is that he would have that spirit even without the kyubbi. I think that he would be a regular medium ninja, sure, talented, a very nice tactictian, but not a possible hokage ninja. Due to his loneliness he built his own defense, that spirit of his that makes him look like he's always joyful and the dream to be recognised that gives him the strenght to continue after every obstacle.
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:18   Link #3
Muad'Dib
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How do you think his strengths would change without the kyuubi? And why do you think he would be a regular ninja? [Not necessarily disagreeing with your post, just want to help facilitate a discussion. ]
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:22   Link #4
MasafumiGotoh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib
How do you think his strengths would change without the kyuubi? And why do you think he would be a regular ninja? [Not necessarily disagreeing with your post, just want to help facilitate a discussion. ]
A little bit of Psychology would have to be put into the discussion. Which would end it right away.
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:25   Link #5
Muad'Dib
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XxNarutoFanxX
A little bit of Psychology would have to be put into the discussion. Which would end it right away.
Why? It seems to me that Naruto the anime and the manga incorporates quite a bit of psychology.

I mean, just look at Gaara...

and Naruto says that "he's just like me."
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:26   Link #6
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Naruto would not be strong at all without the kyuubi. If he did not have the kyuubi not only would he not have that extra burst of energy when he needed it but he wouldn't be spiritually strong either. Look at all the strong people in the show. Sasuke, Neji, Rock Lee, Gaara. All of them had to go through some kind of hell in their childhood and because of that they feel the need to become powerful. The whole reason Naruto wants to become Hokage is because he wants recognition, somthing he never got as a child. If he was already recognized he would probably just enjoy life and be normal. He'd probably be like Shikamauru and be lazy. Except he isn't a genious. So he'd suck.
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:30   Link #7
Muad'Dib
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I have to admit I'm one of those people who believes that Naruto is somehow related to the Yondaime. So perhaps I'm a little bit prejudiced in Naruto's favor. But, I don't think you have to undergo tragedy to want to be strong. Just look at Itachi. That guy caused tragedy, and he is arguably the strongest ninja in the series.

On a side note, I think the only hardships Jiraiya went through is rejection after rejection.

Edit: And, I just thought of this, I think Naruto's motivations have completely changed from the beginning of the series. Sure, he still has the "recognize me" spiel, but I think another significant factor for his strength is for the protection of others.
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:33   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muad'Dib
I have to admit I'm one of those people who believes that Naruto is somehow related to the Yondaime. So perhaps I'm a little bit prejudiced in Naruto's favor. But, I don't think you have to undergo tragedy to want to be strong. Just look at Itachi. That guy caused tragedy, and he is arguably the strongest ninja in the series.

On a side note, I think the only hardships Jiraiya went through is rejection after rejection.

Edit: And, I just thought of this, I think Naruto's motivations have completely changed from the beginning of the series. Sure, he still has the "recognize me" spiel, but I think another significant factor for his strength is for the protection of others.

maybe his family was abusing him or somthing, thats why he killed the clan. I dunno, i really don't know much about itachi's past.
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Old 2004-04-15, 20:41   Link #9
Muad'Dib
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Originally Posted by Evilbunny
maybe his family was abusing him or somthing, thats why he killed the clan. I dunno, i really don't know much about itachi's past.
The reason Itachi gave, I believe, for killing his entire clan is that he wanted to test his abilities. But, of course, that might not have been the whole kit and kaboodle.
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Old 2004-04-15, 21:07   Link #10
MasafumiGotoh
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Naruto will be a looooong manga. ugh.......Pretty much a looooong anime.
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Old 2004-04-16, 00:13   Link #11
Xarrais
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Sasuke is suppose to have a higher growth potential than Itachi which is like the strongest guy so far revealed in the anime or the manga right ?

And naruto's normal Non-kyuubi chakra is growing at a faster rate than Sasuke's is. His control abilities are not as good but his raw chakra capacity is well beyond Sasuke's lvl.

So even without Kyuubi inside him he would be hokage material.

I still suspect that he is the 4th Hokage and the sealing tech reverted him to a baby or something similar to that. And if that is true then he already became a hokage on his own once.
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Old 2004-04-16, 00:24   Link #12
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Yes. Naruto is strong even without the power of Kyubi!
Spoiler:


Quote:
Originally Posted by hob
Most people say that Naruto's greatest strenght is his spirit. I Agree. What i don't agree is that he would have that spirit even without the kyubbi. I think that he would be a regular medium ninja, sure, talented, a very nice tactictian, but not a possible hokage ninja. Due to his loneliness he built his own defense, that spirit of his that makes him look like he's always joyful and the dream to be recognised that gives him the strenght to continue after every obstacle.
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-04-16, 02:21   Link #13
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the similarity between garra and naruto is huge. Both rejected in childhood because of the monster inseide him but why then did they grow so differently. I think its cause naruto has the spirit and wants to protect people but also because he lives in the friendlier konoha village. I doubt the 3rd would send someone to kill naruto like the sand did to garra.

Last edited by kakashilion; 2004-04-16 at 02:47.
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Old 2004-04-16, 03:18   Link #14
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Naruto would not exist without Kyuubi. How would Naruto have come around? What would his childhood have been like? Would he have had parents? Friends? Would he still have a rascal complex if he wasn't an outcast? There are too many things that would be too different without Kyuubi. The main reason Naruto is who he is stems from the fact that he was an exile because of Kyuubi.
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Old 2004-04-16, 05:11   Link #15
Akichan
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Okay, let's take the kyuubi out of the equation.

Naruto may have a family, he may not. (since his origins haven't been thoroughly explored yet)

And, if he was still an orphan who's to say he'd be taken care of? It seems to me that Konoha has a lazy streak when it seems to taking care of its children. Look at Sasuke. He's still living on his own in his nice fancy apartment, even though his clan was big and important. He's only twelve. We're not talking eighteen year olds. 12 is still young.

So from here I can branch this out two ways. Let's say Naruto had a family who loved him. Okay, so he doesn't have to deal with the lonliness and he's probably any regular child.

We all know that he did the things he did because he wanted attention, but I think that he's mischievious anyway, kyuubi or not. I think also a part of his personality makes him annoying. Just because there's no kyuubi, doesn't mean he'd have friends. Normal kids have a hard enough time finding friends!

He may still see himself as an outcast...most children do at some point in their lives.

Let's say he didn't have a family. He'd be alone, almost as much as he is now. He may get less harsh looks, but he'd have to deal with the same dark personal hell as he would with the kyuubi.

Have you ever asked a child what they want to be when they grow up?

They'll answer something like "I want to be an astronaut...I want to be the president...I want to be a doctor."

All of these figureheads are role models.

Naruto just wants to be the leader of Konoha. The reason behind the ambition might have changed, but the drive is just the same.

I think he would still hold the same goals in mind.

Realistically, we can't assume he'll be like Hinata because that's QUITE at the opposite end of the spectrum.

Kyuubi or not, Naruto is still essentially Naruto in the end.
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Old 2004-04-16, 08:28   Link #16
Hunter
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Naruto without the Kyubi Kyubi doesn't exist as a character.

He's a stamina freak because of the presence of the Kyubi since his birth as stated in the manga, the Kyubi is the root of his stamina and thus chakra because the seal allow the chakra of the Kyubi to slowly combine with the chakra of Naruto since now 13 or 14 years.

It's not just
Blue : Naruto
Red : Kyubi
Naruto uses the chakra of the Kyubi all the time, even when he doesn't ask for it, their chakra are slowly mixed since almost his birth.

Besides, the fact that Naruto is completely inept at creating chakra from his stamina and that he's a total failure when in matter of chakra control is also due to the presence of the Kyubi.
Naruto probably wastes more chakra that a normal ninja can have in all his life because the wild chakra of the Kyubi is more difficult to control and thus Naruto's own chakra too as it was explained in the manga by Kakashi.

The simple fact that he uses the Kage Bunshin as he does, must be impossible for anyone else, a normal ninja dividing his chakra by 50 wouldn't be able to do a simple kick after that.

The Kyubi has also a clear impact on his training in the way that Naruto can train litterally without almost any interuption.
For example when Sasuke was training for the Chidori, he was to stop after 2 try maximum and wait 24 hours at least and probably even more after that.

How many times Naruto tried to do the Rasengan? 10? 20? More?
Even Lee can't train like that.

His gigantic Stamina cumulated with his Healing Ability once again due to the Kyubi changes completely his capacity to absorb the damage and the tiredness.

All his capacities, all his jutsus, all his background are based on the presence of the Kyubi.

That's why it's impossible to know what would be Naruto without it.
He would be a completely different character.
He would be weaker indeed but in which proportion?
We don't know and we can't know.

And anyway he has the Kyubi so deal with it
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Old 2004-04-16, 08:47   Link #17
Shadamehr
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Well, to be fair, the Rasengan can probably be done with less chakra and force than the Chidori, as it is a very versatile move. (Jiraiya manages to use it to settle a bar fight w/o killing the other guy, I've never seen a non-lethal Chidori before)

But, yeah, I agree, Naruto's training benefits a lot from his healing factor and Kyubified chakra stamina.

However, the very fact that he was capable of learning Kage Bunshin as an academy student, and capable of learning the Rasengan at all says to me that he is a jutsu genius, and would probably be a pretty good ninja even w/o the Kyubi. Tsunade seems to think that anybody that is even capable of performing a Rasengan after any amount of training must be a genius. Naruto learned it at 13. Regardless of any training advantages his stamina gives him, if he were not very good at learning difficult jutsus, he should not have been able to accomplish these feats.
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Old 2004-04-16, 08:51   Link #18
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Originally Posted by Shadamehr
Well, to be fair, the Rasengan can probably be done with less chakra and force than the Chidori, as it is a very versatile move. (Jiraiya manages to use it to settle a bar fight w/o killing the other guy, I've never seen a non-lethal Chidori before
No

that was just a first stage of Rasengan(it was just chakra spinning around, it was not rasengan) Plus Jiraiya used what? very little chakra or the guy whould be dead.
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Old 2004-04-16, 10:36   Link #19
Retta
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naruto is pure hokage material.

if you take away his kyuybi, sasukes sharingan, gaaras sand etc etc

you people would see that naruto is the best.

you could say that gaara is pretty much like naruto, but the factor which decides if naruto is stronger or not. is his feeling towards people, he want to protect not kill (heard it beafore). that makes him stronger than gaara.

and all that talk about naruto childhood may be the reason, well its not. maybe a bit. i think he still would be for protecting his loved ones (heard it beafore). he still would want to be hokage, because he love the people of konoha.

sasuke had people, who said "sasuke very good". that give you motovation, doesnt it? well naruto didnt hear anything. when he start to get some credit, he became better. he had now more will. HE WANTED IT 4 100%!

His kyuubi is just like the other blood-line ppl, its something you call an advantage. He still is pure raw hokage material.

IF he had a family, (his real one?) shit it would be some powerfull people. He would be given the proper training and 'disciplne'.

His way to be is affected by his childhood, would he get a regular childhood he might be diffrent, smart, charming etc etc.

He is loud and everything, why? He did get his attention from it..his whole fuckin life.

Thats it, his the number one talent there. The hermit see it, so why don't you?
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Old 2004-04-16, 11:02   Link #20
Shadamehr
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Originally Posted by Nine Devil
No

that was just a first stage of Rasengan(it was just chakra spinning around, it was not rasengan) Plus Jiraiya used what? very little chakra or the guy whould be dead.
That's exactly what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear, I did not mean that Rasengan uses less chakra and is thus weaker. What I was saying is that Rasengan allows you to use little chakra or a lot of chakra depending on how much damage you want to do. In contrast, chidori demands that you use a lot of chakra to begin with, and is always a big attack. Thus, Sasuke only gets to practice the Chidori twice a day, but Naruto can use smaller Rasengans while he is learning the technique, then ramp it up and push in as much of his chakra as he wants when he is in a fight.
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