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Old 2013-11-04, 10:28   Link #1141
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
I fear you are trying too much to make LogHor be SAO.

IMHO, it is healthier just assume that the answers to the question everyone have, i. e., "where are they?", "who caused it?", "how to go back to home?", will be answered only at the last episode (no spoilers here, I have no idea when that questions will be answered).

Just like a lot of other animes: the questions are answered at the last episode.

So, take your time and watch how the story develops. LogHor don't need be a forced drama like SAO. Or maybe be better to say: LogHor don't need be SAO.
I don't know why you're bringing up SAO.
Spoiler for SAO:

Quote:
Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
Youre overestimating them too much to be honest. They are not survivalist, rocket scientist, or a genius in real live. Most of the adventurers were most probably kids, teenagers and young adult.
College-educated geeks...

Quote:
" The game mechanics would help, there. Yes, you'd need some order. The backing of a guild. But there are limits to the abuse one can do in a town, so a free for all isn't in the cards. For now."
So, you were expecting them to experiment inside a town to avoid PK? that is counterproductive.
I was answering a specific claim about breaking down a guild's door.

Though I don't see a problem with experimenting in towns. Starting there, at least.

Quote:
"There's a difference between going out in the woods to collect samples of flora, study and catalogue them, and picking up a random flower on the side of the street on your way to the bakery"

Except they werent going to the bakery. Comparing it, they were more like sending an injured person to the hospital. They do not have time to catalogue every flora they find on the way to the hospital
As I said, I don't fault their sense of priorities. (At least Shiroe's. Not sure about PKers or whiners.) I disagree with the statement they did absolutely all they could to understand their situation. That ignorance is an excuse for inaction.

Quote:
" You're underestimating how much it doesn't matter. Big problem, small problem, the important is to do what they can. And they aren't. Not really."
So youre saying that for a normal person, it doesnt matter whether the pipe is leaking, or he need to build a rocket to the moon. Small problem, big problem, whats the difference, Just do what he can and everything will work out
Maybe they'll fail. But if they don't try, there's no "maybe" about it.

Quote:
" Yes, and it took them how long to get it?"
Again, did they have time to properly observe before?
If not them, any of the many, many slackers did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Of course it took them several episodes to get there. If we had been spending episode after episode only on expositioning and dialog, watching the players perform SCIENCE! the plot would have moved onwards with about the same speed as an ant pushing a brick across a desert.

It took us five episodes to get there because the anime paces discovery and adventure in such a way that the whole remains enjoyable for both parties. We know that players are experimenting even in absence of the main character. Nyanta is a prime example of this and it's statistically highly improbable that he is the only person to figure out that cooking skill + regular cooking methods = tasty food. Sure, we don't see this happening in grand detail right in front of our face, but the knowledge that this is happening should be enough for us to realize that the players aren't idiots and are figuring things out.

Sure, they could show us ten minutes of footage of several people talking to NPC's and getting futile answers, or ten minutes of people experimenting with menu's, or ten minutes of people throwing rocks to test gravity, but do we really need to be spoonfed with plot-slowing filler that much? People are researching and discovering the world, we the viewers get to see the fruits of this research at a time where it is relevant.

I also still highly disagree with people "not doing what they can." But then, I still don't know what exactly you mean by that. We've seen dozens of characters crossing the screen by now and all of them look very busy trying to get this new world in order. What exactly is it they "aren't doing what they can?"
They're all meta-reasons.
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Old 2013-11-04, 10:34   Link #1142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
But you're wrong.
Earthlings/People of the Land do have lives and produces goods while there's no one around.
I know you're really really trying hard to think they can't be sentient beings, but they are.
That brings me to the Riverworld theory. The more I watch the anime, read the few I could from the manga and look at LN info, the more I am leaning toward this.
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Old 2013-11-04, 10:36   Link #1143
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As I said, I don't fault their sense of priorities. (At least Shiroe's. Not sure about PKers or whiners.) I disagree with the statement they did absolutely all they could to understand their situation. That ignorance is an excuse for inaction.
I think this is where you're not clicking.
They DID everything they could without sacrificing everything else.

Within the context of what they CAN and AFFORD to do, they did everything they could.

The impression is, you come off as thinking (even though you have said otherwise) they should say screw Serara, screw everyone, let's sit in a lab and figure this shit out. Instead, Shiroe prioritized on "first, we need to figure out survival. This is essential for IMMEDIATE time being. Once everything is settled we can AFFORD to venture out for truth."

Which is EXACTLY what the story is heading to, so let's please drop this...
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Old 2013-11-04, 10:56   Link #1144
Anh_Minh
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The problem (of which I'm as guilty as anyone) is how ill-defined "they" is. Sometimes it's Shiroe's party. Sometimes it's the players in general.

I've said it before. Going after Serara was a fine decision.

I've also got the impression that some people here think that, even if Serara hadn't entered the picture, there wasn't much they could do since they know so little. So they'd have just, I don't now, tweedled their thumbs or walked around randomly waiting for The Answer to fall into their laps. There is, in fact, a mountain of things to try.
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Old 2013-11-04, 10:56   Link #1145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
College-educated geeks...
I envy the optimism that makes you believe college-educated geeks are all geniuses that would totally approach a apocalyptic situation with calm, organized large-scale scientific research.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
As I said, I don't fault their sense of priorities. (At least Shiroe's. Not sure about PKers or whiners.) I disagree with the statement they did absolutely all they could to understand their situation. That ignorance is an excuse for inaction.
What inaction? Last I checked, everyone who wasn't going into a catatonic panic was doing something.

Hell, technically even the PKers are doing something scientific. Pushing the boundaries of this new world, seeing how far this new world lets them go before someone or something steps in.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Maybe they'll fail. But if they don't try, there's no "maybe" about it.
Which doesn't change that there is a difference between big and small problems, and that the big problems require addressing first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They're all meta-reasons.
Of course they are, because in the universe itself people are figuring all this stuff out. We just don't see more than glimpses of people working on it until it's time to present the results.
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Old 2013-11-04, 10:59   Link #1146
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I envy the optimism that makes you believe college-educated geeks are all geniuses that would totally approach a apocalyptic situation with calm, organized large-scale scientific research.
All? No. But with enough of them, some will have the right temperament. And knowledge and training. As for genius - it's really unnecessary, so far.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:06   Link #1147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They're all meta-reasons.
Meta-reasons are still perfectly valid reasons. "If we write it this way nobody will want to watch the damn show" is kind of an important factor, after all.

Quote:
I don't know why you're bringing up SAO.
He's bringing up SAO because SAO's "we fight to get out of here" was the driving force of the whole plot. I am not convinced that that is the case for this story, but some of you seem very determined to make it be the case, and be disappointed because they aren't acting like it is.

Folks, Shiroe is a gaming strategist. Not a physicist, not a chemist, not a biologist. We know he has training in engineering on Earth, although not what field. He is approaching this situation from his area of expertise, and frankly he's doing a pretty decent job of gathering information of all sorts. Insisting that he should be spending time performing experiments he isn't qualified to perform in a vague attempt to discover information that, frankly, isn't likely to be all that useful (let's be honest for a moment. The stuff you're asking him to test is likely just going to be all Earth-standard because that's the way the world has been set up) is frankly foolish and pedantic. It's coming across that you're grasping at straws to try to find some way to complain that he "isn't doing enough." He's been working on it the way he's good at. He's been accomplishing about as much as someone in his situation could be expected to accomplish. And if he's not doing it the way you would, well he's not you for one thing, and maybe the way you would do it wouldn't make for an interesting series for another.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:19   Link #1148
darksassin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I don't know why you're bringing up SAO.
Spoiler for SAO:


College-educated geeks...


I was answering a specific claim about breaking down a guild's door.

Though I don't see a problem with experimenting in towns. Starting there, at least.


As I said, I don't fault their sense of priorities. (At least Shiroe's. Not sure about PKers or whiners.) I disagree with the statement they did absolutely all they could to understand their situation. That ignorance is an excuse for inaction.


Maybe they'll fail. But if they don't try, there's no "maybe" about it.


If not them, any of the many, many slackers did.


They're all meta-reasons.
" College-educated geeks..."
I meant most of the players, not just Shiroe and Co

" As I said, I don't fault their sense of priorities. (At least Shiroe's. Not sure about PKers or whiners.) I disagree with the statement they did absolutely all they could to understand their situation. That ignorance is an excuse for inaction."

Again, for Shiroe and Co, they werent ignorant. They just put it aside due to more serious situation

" If not them, any of the many, many slackers did. "
Again, most of them were probably kids, teens, young adult. Those who were more proactive/responsible we probably in charge of guilds, and got their hands full on managing and taking care oftheir guild members, like Marielle and Henrietta

" They're all meta-reasons."
Whats wrong with meta exactly?
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:22   Link #1149
Anh_Minh
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Again: I was answering this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Random Wanderer View Post
Right, it's not like anyone can rush to try to find a way out, because they have absolutely no information; which includes lacking information about any place to get information.
It's not specific to Shiroe. It's a statement of generalized helplessness with which I disagree. There is much they (as in the players as a whole) can do. What Keroko calls their "big problems" are largely self-inflicted. Getting basic information doesn't require much more than having stayed awake during high school science class, if that.

So maybe they are, indeed, trapped in an incomprehensible universe and there's nothing they can do about it. But we can't say that until they've at least tried, can we?

(And yes, people being sane and pragmatic makes for boring stories. )
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:26   Link #1150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
But you're wrong.
Earthlings/People of the Land do have lives and produces goods while there's no one around.
I know you're really really trying hard to think they can't be sentient beings, but they are.
I will make an interesting question for you try think out the box. And maybe get out the SAO stereotype...

If the "People of Land" are humans/sentient beings, so goblins too are sentient beings? Ratmen? That "human-fish" from OP?

It is not a spoiler, just look the OP with a lot of attention, we see "monsters" moving like an army.... can we guess against who they are moving?

@Anh_Minh

When you wrote "meta-reasons" it is the same that admit you are comparing LogHor to other anime, and the first one that comes to mind is SAO, for obvious reasons.

There is not "meta-language" if there is no comparation to other products from same media. And it is evident to everyone you are "meta" comparating LogHor to SAO.

LogHor will be easier to understand if everyone stop to try make it a new SAO. LogHor is a diferent animal, ops, anime.

Just looking the OP and seeing that army of "monsters" moving against the players, like any sentient and inteligent being sooner or later will to do against an agressive force that is "farming" them, for see the players have more important preocupations than discover "how to go to home?". Survival is a more pressing issue...
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:27   Link #1151
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All I can say is, Amh, there are 15,000 people trapped just on the Japanese server alone, many more around the globe.
We're only seeing handful of people, focusing on the protagonist, at the moment.

There are plenty of level-headed guild masters out there trying all sorts of things around the world. Including other cities in Japan.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:27   Link #1152
Gan_HOPE326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I envy the optimism that makes you believe college-educated geeks are all geniuses that would totally approach a apocalyptic situation with calm, organized large-scale scientific research.
You think? I studied engineering and got a PhD in physics. Nerdy faculties like these, if anything, have a high number of people interested in stuff like online games. Also, a high number of computer savvy people and straight out programmers and hackers. In my group it was actually hard to keep science and physics out of the subject whatever we were talking about. I remember once being in a coffee, drinking a chocolate, and we started debating about whether it would have been possible with an iPhone accelerometer to detect a bike suddenly braking. In one minute, calculators popped out and we started crunching numbers. Lots of people finds these things fun, I can't imagine thousands of players trapped in an MMORPG and not there being a substantial group of science and tech savvy people in there. Hell, with his analytical thought, his class+subclass choice (mages are especially loved by brainy people), and studying in college, I'm pretty sure Shiroe is supposed to be part of this crowd.

About the gravity thing, Anh, I don't know what you have in mind, but I don't think you could detect gravity from, say, a tree or even a mountain that easily. Not sure though. Well, you probably could get decent results with a torsion balance which is easy to build. The problem here is that you can't rely on things like the orbits/radii of planets or the Earth for your calculations, because those things could be built into the game engine. Even the gravitational pull from huge objects like mountains could be. You need to be able to measure gravitational pull from small, movable objects (people, carts) to tell whether it's truly "dynamic" and not a fixed vector field defined point by point in game space. It still wouldn't tell you much anyway. In fact, there is no way to tell reality apart from a computer simulation - you can only hope to define how COMPLEX the simulation is (and put limits on it as beyond a certain point it becomes impossible for reasonably sized computers to run it).

Well, anyway, scientists aren't even sure WE are not living in a computer simulation, so there's that. It's not an easy problem:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1957777.html
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:38   Link #1153
Breimoon
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Originally Posted by VooDooZulu View Post
That's actually a briliant idea and very simple. Seeing a microscopic ecosystem would pretty quickly kill any theory of it being a computer (in my mind at least)
there are some theories that even we are only simulations so that is not enough.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:39   Link #1154
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Heres a question: Akatsuki is a hard core roleplayer, she roleplays everything. How do you think she would be if she wasn't roleplaying the subservient ninja? Or is she actually roleplaying at all?
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:42   Link #1155
Anh_Minh
I disagree with you all.
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
I will make an interesting question for you try think out the box. And maybe get out the SAO stereotype...

If the "People of Land" are humans/sentient beings, so goblins too are sentient beings? Ratmen? That "human-fish" from OP?

It is not a spoiler, just look the OP with a lot of attention, we see "monsters" moving like an army.... can we guess against who they are moving?

@Anh_Minh

When you wrote "meta-reasons" it is the same that admit you are comparing LogHor to other anime, and the first one that comes to mind is SAO, for obvious reasons.
No. It's acknowledgement that LH is a work of fiction, which it is.

Quote:
There is not "meta-language" if there is no comparation to other products from same media. And it is evident to everyone you are "meta" comparating LogHor to SAO.

LogHor will be easier to understand if everyone stop to try make it a new SAO. LogHor is a diferent animal, ops, anime.
And my posts will be more understandable if you stop trying to make them SAO comparisons. They're different and comparisons aren't useful. That's what I said when you brought up SAO.

The only thing is that, indeed, like RW said, I've assumed people want to go home.

Quote:
Just looking the OP and seeing that army of "monsters" moving against the players, like any sentient and inteligent being sooner or later will to do against an agressive force that is "farming" them, for see the players have more important preocupations than discover "how to go to home?". Survival is a more pressing issue...
No, it really isn't. Even if they try to die, they just resurrect. Their only "big problem", aside from the Apocalypse itself, is people being assholes. That's all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
All I can say is, Amh, there are 15,000 people trapped just on the Japanese server alone, many more around the globe.
We're only seeing handful of people, focusing on the protagonist, at the moment.

There are plenty of level-headed guild masters out there trying all sorts of things around the world. Including other cities in Japan.
OK, then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
You think? I studied engineering and got a PhD in physics. Nerdy faculties like these, if anything, have a high number of people interested in stuff like online games. Also, a high number of computer savvy people and straight out programmers and hackers. In my group it was actually hard to keep science and physics out of the subject whatever we were talking about. I remember once being in a coffee, drinking a chocolate, and we started debating about whether it would have been possible with an iPhone accelerometer to detect a bike suddenly braking. In one minute, calculators popped out and we started crunching numbers. Lots of people finds these things fun, I can't imagine thousands of players trapped in an MMORPG and not there being a substantial group of science and tech savvy people in there. Hell, with his analytical thought, his class+subclass choice (mages are especially loved by brainy people), and studying in college, I'm pretty sure Shiroe is supposed to be part of this crowd.

About the gravity thing, Anh, I don't know what you have in mind, but I don't think you could detect gravity from, say, a tree or even a mountain that easily. Not sure though. Well, you probably could get decent results with a torsion balance which is easy to build. The problem here is that you can't rely on things like the orbits/radii of planets or the Earth for your calculations, because those things could be built into the game engine. Even the gravitational pull from huge objects like mountains could be. You need to be able to measure gravitational pull from small, movable objects (people, carts) to tell whether it's truly "dynamic" and not a fixed vector field defined point by point in game space. It still wouldn't tell you much anyway. In fact, there is no way to tell reality apart from a computer simulation - you can only hope to define how COMPLEX the simulation is (and put limits on it as beyond a certain point it becomes impossible for reasonably sized computers to run it).

Well, anyway, scientists aren't even sure WE are not living in a computer simulation, so there's that. It's not an easy problem:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1957777.html
I was thinking of the Cavendish Experiment. They wouldn't get quantitative results, to be sure, but even a qualitative one would be nice.

And yes, there is no distinguishing reality from a sufficiently advanced simulation. Still, maybe the simulation isn't that advanced? That'd be something to test for.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:52   Link #1156
Gan_HOPE326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I was thinking of the Cavendish Experiment. They wouldn't get quantitative results, to be sure, but even a qualitative one would be nice.

And yes, there is no distinguishing reality from a sufficiently advanced simulation. Still, maybe the simulation isn't that advanced? That'd be something to test for.
Torsion balance it is, so. Still, I'm not sure whether that would be the most logical way to go, in the sense that it could still be simulated with relative ease and comparably hard to measure. And we still don't even understand fully gravity in OUR world anyway .

What about measuring the properties of materials? Like, elasticity and plasticity of metals? If every crafted sword breaks under exactly the same amount of applied pressure, without deviations or dispersion, that's a big signal for "simulation" (or we should say, "simulation of significant lesser complexity than our universe, and hence, potentially contained within it"). Also, that thermodynamics issue is a big thing because they could find out a loophole to generate infinite energy. I'm pretty sure the game world does not have conservation of energy anyway.

The point is, just like they can override the problem of tasteless food by baking the ingredients directly, maybe they can exploit loopholes in logic and physics to build new kinds of weapons/tech which will work in a different way from the crafted/given ones. Like real gunpowder created by combining carbon, sulphur and potassium nitrate instead of whatever they get out of crafting techniques. They could progress to space age in no time. Think of the possibilities .
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:52   Link #1157
Johaocarl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No. It's acknowledgement that LH is a work of fiction, which it is.
There are only two other works of fiction that can be comparated to LogHor: .hack and SAO. Both too have the theme "traped in a game world".

No one can see you camparating LogHor to .hack, because
Spoiler:


So, when you wrote "I've assumed people want to go home" you prove that you are comparating LogHor to ONLY ONE anime.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:57   Link #1158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
The point is, just like they can override the problem of tasteless food by baking the ingredients directly, maybe they can exploit loopholes in logic and physics to build new kinds of weapons/tech which will work in a different way from the crafted/given ones. Like real gunpowder created by combining carbon, sulphur and potassium nitrate instead of whatever they get out of crafting techniques. They could progress to space age in no time. Think of the possibilities .
Yes, but take note first they need find how to make food with taste. The heroes had to meet Nyanta first, because Nyanta discover that important clue. And Nyanta was lost at a town dominated by PKillers that had no interest to make that "experiments", they were harassing other players and NPC for fun.

After the players "digest" the knowledge of how to make food with taste maybe they can test if they can make gunpowder.
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:58   Link #1159
darksassin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
You think? I studied engineering and got a PhD in physics. Nerdy faculties like these, if anything, have a high number of people interested in stuff like online games. Also, a high number of computer savvy people and straight out programmers and hackers. In my group it was actually hard to keep science and physics out of the subject whatever we were talking about. I remember once being in a coffee, drinking a chocolate, and we started debating about whether it would have been possible with an iPhone accelerometer to detect a bike suddenly braking. In one minute, calculators popped out and we started crunching numbers. Lots of people finds these things fun, I can't imagine thousands of players trapped in an MMORPG and not there being a substantial group of science and tech savvy people in there. Hell, with his analytical thought, his class+subclass choice (mages are especially loved by brainy people), and studying in college, I'm pretty sure Shiroe is supposed to be part of this crowd.

About the gravity thing, Anh, I don't know what you have in mind, but I don't think you could detect gravity from, say, a tree or even a mountain that easily. Not sure though. Well, you probably could get decent results with a torsion balance which is easy to build. The problem here is that you can't rely on things like the orbits/radii of planets or the Earth for your calculations, because those things could be built into the game engine. Even the gravitational pull from huge objects like mountains could be. You need to be able to measure gravitational pull from small, movable objects (people, carts) to tell whether it's truly "dynamic" and not a fixed vector field defined point by point in game space. It still wouldn't tell you much anyway. In fact, there is no way to tell reality apart from a computer simulation - you can only hope to define how COMPLEX the simulation is (and put limits on it as beyond a certain point it becomes impossible for reasonably sized computers to run it).

Well, anyway, scientists aren't even sure WE are not living in a computer simulation, so there's that. It's not an easy problem:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012...n_1957777.html
He did say "large scale research" . So unless you and a few of your friends were playing at that that moment when apocalypse happened, youll probably be the lone PhD bearer for a while. and how exactly will you do anything to experiment, lets say, velocity or acceleration. you need a way to measure distance and time, and so far I see no clock or measuring tape. And no calculator too. Also the subclass is pretty restrictive. lets say you are an alchemist. You do multiple experiments, but how do you record your finding? You arent a scribe if youre an alchemist. Also, say if there are quite a few PhD doctor like you stuck too, but you dont know any of them. How can you contact them?
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Old 2013-11-04, 11:59   Link #1160
Breimoon
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to tell the truth there are many other works of fiction we can compare it to, and not only anime even movies(Matrix being one exemple)
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