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Old 2013-11-05, 07:43   Link #1221
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
So my theory is not so baseless after all.
Well for your question, Ill assume that the end result is probably the same. Lets look about cooking. Even if you cook manually(reality), you still need a chef subclass with an appropiate level(game), So I guess, for manual attack, like maybe stabbing someone with fireforged weapons, or heck, chocking someone to death, the "game" law would still be in effect, ie. that person would still be resurrected
But my point is that in the case of cooking the result is more "real" - you could argue that while crafting food creates a brand new "game object", cooking it just compels a check from the game engine: if your skill is lower than X, a "game effect" will kick in and burn your ingredients to a useless crisp, otherwise, physics follow their normal course. If that's the case, then the equivalent would be anyone without a high enough level of "smith" subclass not being able to make a sword, but those who could would have a sword that is more "real" than a game one - that is, one that actually wounds, maims, and kills, as it damages the physical layer of the players (their bodies) and not their game entity (the Hit Points). See it as if in a real game you had a way to lower the hit points of a character by firing at it, and then a way to mess up the allocated memory that stores the data for that character. In the first case, the character can resurrect, following game logic. In the second, even the game engine can't do anything about it. If it's badly coded, it will segfault and crash. If it's well coded, it will somewhat handle it, but the character will still be lost forever.

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Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
And someone before said that if LogHora is in a game, you should try to test the physic engine using thousands of bouncing balls since he said the game engine will have a hard time emulating and calculate the trajectory, bouncyness and shadows.But heres the thing: emulating bouncing balls is relatively much, much easier comparade to emulating hairs. And so far I didn't see any character in LogHora complained about hair physics.
Exactly, we're already past beyond the point where bouncing balls are a problem. This is exactly what we were talking about when we discussed about testing physics. We already know the game engine running is incredibly advanced - they have excellent water simulation, I assume, and that's way harder than bouncing balls. Hair is another example. The issue is: to which level of precision was the "real world" implemented? Different limits:

1) limit of what's visible/perceivable: for example looking at flesh with a microscope you won't see cells or bacteria because those are unnecessary. In a similar way, things like the tiny gravitational effects that come with masses around you may be ignored because what matters is Earth's gravity anyway.

2) limit of molecules/atoms: chemistry is properly represented, but atoms are only bouncy ball things rather than objects containing nuclei and electrons. This would not allow to simulate for example photoelectricity (or electricity at all, if not with a very restricted set of dedicated physics rules) and radioactivity.

3) limit of subatomic particles...

...etc. down to the Planck scale, which for all we know should be where the resolution ends for OUR world, and which probably would be the "pixel size" of our world if it was a computer simulation.

The more precise the simulation, the harder to keep it running. A real world supercomputer would probably already have lots of trouble with 1). The LogHora world is just too big to handle all of it. So no matter what, we're talking about something alien or borderline magic here. The interesting bit is that finding the limits of the simulation might allow one to find glitches or rounding errors that could then be exploited at the player's advantage.

On another note, we don't really know how FAST the simulation is running. Say that it's a rather slow one, it could take one year to simulate a single second in LogHora, and the players wouldn't realize, because their own virtual body works in synch with THAT time scale. However, there's the problem of durability: several days in LogHora at that speed mean millions of years outside. Which computer could ever last that much?

(Well, except Deep Thought from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Which leads us to the next logical step: LogHora is actually a simulation carried out by an alien computer to find the Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything through collaboration and the collective mind of all its players. Talk about farfetched)
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Old 2013-11-05, 08:36   Link #1222
Johaocarl
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
1) limit of what's visible/perceivable: for example looking at flesh with a microscope you won't see cells or bacteria because those are unnecessary. In a similar way, things like the tiny gravitational effects that come with masses around you may be ignored because what matters is Earth's gravity anyway.

2) limit of molecules/atoms: chemistry is properly represented, but atoms are only bouncy ball things rather than objects containing nuclei and electrons. This would not allow to simulate for example photoelectricity (or electricity at all, if not with a very restricted set of dedicated physics rules) and radioactivity.

3) limit of subatomic particles...
A lot of that experiments need an industrial civilization. Only an industrial civilization have the resourses and tools for make that experiments. A feudal civilization, that is basically agrarian production, cannot build a Large Hadron Collider for discover the Higgs Boson.

By the way, maybe we are living at a huge virtual simulation, but OUR industrial civilization don't have the means for make an experimento for test it, we just proved that Higgs Boson exist and that is a very small step in the direction for understand what is our Universe. Whatever the Higgs Boson be....

I don't think the players stuck at LogHor can make any experiment that prove they are inside a virtual reality or not. If it is a simulation, that simulation is moving each thread of hair of each players and NPC and giving "human behavior" to each and everyone NPC. It is a huge computational power there and take note we will not have that computational power in 50 years - and that assume the Moore's Law will stay for more 50 years...

That NPCs probably will pass the Turing test - that test don't say if you are a human, but say that a machine is not distinguible from a human. That NPCs can pass that test in "Blade Runner" easilly and say they will turn the turtle... (if you do'nt noted, just talking to them - like Shiroe made - will show the NPCs pass the Turing test)

If it is a very advancing programing, monsters too will be sentient and inteligent creatures. That can bring a lot of problems later...

So, basically it is impossible for players to discover if it is a simulation or not, same way we cannot discover if we live at a simulation or not.

The point is, no one come and said to players where they are or how they can return home or if they CAN return home. There is no Dungeon Master in this D&D cartoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26D_cartoon).
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Old 2013-11-05, 09:45   Link #1223
darksassin
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Originally Posted by Gan_HOPE326 View Post
But my point is that in the case of cooking the result is more "real" - you could argue that while crafting food creates a brand new "game object", cooking it just compels a check from the game engine: if your skill is lower than X, a "game effect" will kick in and burn your ingredients to a useless crisp, otherwise, physics follow their normal course. If that's the case, then the equivalent would be anyone without a high enough level of "smith" subclass not being able to make a sword, but those who could would have a sword that is more "real" than a game one - that is, one that actually wounds, maims, and kills, as it damages the physical layer of the players (their bodies) and not their game entity (the Hit Points). See it as if in a real game you had a way to lower the hit points of a character by firing at it, and then a way to mess up the allocated memory that stores the data for that character. In the first case, the character can resurrect, following game logic. In the second, even the game engine can't do anything about it. If it's badly coded, it will segfault and crash. If it's well coded, it will somewhat handle it, but the character will still be lost forever.



Exactly, we're already past beyond the point where bouncing balls are a problem. This is exactly what we were talking about when we discussed about testing physics. We already know the game engine running is incredibly advanced - they have excellent water simulation, I assume, and that's way harder than bouncing balls. Hair is another example. The issue is: to which level of precision was the "real world" implemented? Different limits:

1) limit of what's visible/perceivable: for example looking at flesh with a microscope you won't see cells or bacteria because those are unnecessary. In a similar way, things like the tiny gravitational effects that come with masses around you may be ignored because what matters is Earth's gravity anyway.

2) limit of molecules/atoms: chemistry is properly represented, but atoms are only bouncy ball things rather than objects containing nuclei and electrons. This would not allow to simulate for example photoelectricity (or electricity at all, if not with a very restricted set of dedicated physics rules) and radioactivity.

3) limit of subatomic particles...

...etc. down to the Planck scale, which for all we know should be where the resolution ends for OUR world, and which probably would be the "pixel size" of our world if it was a computer simulation.

The more precise the simulation, the harder to keep it running. A real world supercomputer would probably already have lots of trouble with 1). The LogHora world is just too big to handle all of it. So no matter what, we're talking about something alien or borderline magic here. The interesting bit is that finding the limits of the simulation might allow one to find glitches or rounding errors that could then be exploited at the player's advantage.

On another note, we don't really know how FAST the simulation is running. Say that it's a rather slow one, it could take one year to simulate a single second in LogHora, and the players wouldn't realize, because their own virtual body works in synch with THAT time scale. However, there's the problem of durability: several days in LogHora at that speed mean millions of years outside. Which computer could ever last that much?

(Well, except Deep Thought from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy. Which leads us to the next logical step: LogHora is actually a simulation carried out by an alien computer to find the Answer to Life, the Universe and Everything through collaboration and the collective mind of all its players. Talk about farfetched)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
A lot of that experiments need an industrial civilization. Only an industrial civilization have the resourses and tools for make that experiments. A feudal civilization, that is basically agrarian production, cannot build a Large Hadron Collider for discover the Higgs Boson.

By the way, maybe we are living at a huge virtual simulation, but OUR industrial civilization don't have the means for make an experimento for test it, we just proved that Higgs Boson exist and that is a very small step in the direction for understand what is our Universe. Whatever the Higgs Boson be....

I don't think the players stuck at LogHor can make any experiment that prove they are inside a virtual reality or not. If it is a simulation, that simulation is moving each thread of hair of each players and NPC and giving "human behavior" to each and everyone NPC. It is a huge computational power there and take note we will not have that computational power in 50 years - and that assume the Moore's Law will stay for more 50 years...

That NPCs probably will pass the Turing test - that test don't say if you are a human, but say that a machine is not distinguible from a human. That NPCs can pass that test in "Blade Runner" easilly and say they will turn the turtle... (if you do'nt noted, just talking to them - like Shiroe made - will show the NPCs pass the Turing test)

If it is a very advancing programing, monsters too will be sentient and inteligent creatures. That can bring a lot of problems later...

So, basically it is impossible for players to discover if it is a simulation or not, same way we cannot discover if we live at a simulation or not.

The point is, no one come and said to players where they are or how they can return home or if they CAN return home. There is no Dungeon Master in this D&D cartoon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D%26D_cartoon).
Yea, that is exactly my point. There is no use to test if that world is a game or not using bouncing balls since it most likely wont give any result. Maybe more complex experiment can be done to test "we are inside a game" theory but it would require time, resource and tech to test them, time and resource which they dont have right now, and technology that maybe not exist yet at that moment. And even if they managed to do that, it might or might not prove anything
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Old 2013-11-05, 10:02   Link #1224
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Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
Yea, that is exactly my point. There is no use to test if that world is a game or not using bouncing balls since it most likely wont give any result. Maybe more complex experiment can be done to test "we are inside a game" theory but it would require time, resource and tech to test them, time and resource which they dont have right now, and technology that maybe not exist yet at that moment. And even if they managed to do that, it might or might not prove anything
Our industrial civilization cannot test "we are inside a game" theory. I doubt 30 k players lost at Yamato server, in middle of D&D world with no Dungeon Master for guide them (or an evil villain for say them that they need go to level 100 for escape that world), can test it too.

The best they can do is talk to NPC and see if they pass the Turing test, but remember the Turing test will not say teh NPC are humans, it will say they can be machines that are not diferenciable from humans. I guess Shiroe just made that test in episode 5 when talking to that NPC and I too guess that Shiroe, an engineer student, know about the Turing test. So, just after talk to that NPC Shiroe come with"they are humans".

With no clues about what to do, the players are lost and have no direction for follow. So, just because SAO had all players runing like mad for find the escape at the level 100, to ask for the same behavior at LogHor players is dishonest.

LogHor is avery diferent anime than SAO, LogHor have a lot better story.
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Old 2013-11-05, 10:34   Link #1225
darksassin
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Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
Our industrial civilization cannot test "we are inside a game" theory. I doubt 30 k players lost at Yamato server, in middle of D&D world with no Dungeon Master for guide them (or an evil villain for say them that they need go to level 100 for escape that world), can test it too.

The best they can do is talk to NPC and see if they pass the Turing test, but remember the Turing test will not say teh NPC are humans, it will say they can be machines that are not diferenciable from humans. I guess Shiroe just made that test in episode 5 when talking to that NPC and I too guess that Shiroe, an engineer student, know about the Turing test. So, just after talk to that NPC Shiroe come with"they are humans".

With no clues about what to do, the players are lost and have no direction for follow. So, just because SAO had all players runing like mad for find the escape at the level 100, to ask for the same behavior at LogHor players is dishonest.

LogHor is avery diferent anime than SAO, LogHor have a lot better story.
True, true. That is why I said maybe, since there might still a chance that they have means to test that theory, but Ill give the 0.0001 percent, maybe less to come up with an experiment like that. and even then, they might not be able to find the answer, leading then to dead end

Yep, they have absolutely no clue of where there are and what to do. There are a few posters here that are under the impression that Shiroe and Co, and other players didnt do what they can at the moment to seek the truth, and are not "proactive" enough(some suggestions are, test whether they are inside a game or not, do Columbus and set sail anywhere to find anything, ask every npc, do physic experiments, try to find the boss and so on) and expect the process and result to be shown. But the question is, WHERE AND HOW TO START? They have literally no clue of where to start, There are countless paths they can take, and if they pursue one way, they most likely find notthing and reached dead end. They might do something to find the truth, but end up in a wild goose chase

Yep, LogHora is very different than SAO, and arguably better too
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Old 2013-11-05, 10:47   Link #1226
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Was I the only one confused by Shiroe's actions this episode? If they're on the friend list, then couldn't Shiroe just contact the twins and see if they're fine? It's not like he didn't do that with Naotsugu, or when they were riding griffons.

And since random strangers can stalk people (such as with Serara), how come Shiroe didn't just bring up the menu to check if it was the boy that was walking away? Though I guess he COULD do that at the start of next episode...
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Old 2013-11-05, 11:07   Link #1227
Gan_HOPE326
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Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
Our industrial civilization cannot test "we are inside a game" theory. I doubt 30 k players lost at Yamato server, in middle of D&D world with no Dungeon Master for guide them (or an evil villain for say them that they need go to level 100 for escape that world), can test it too.

The best they can do is talk to NPC and see if they pass the Turing test, but remember the Turing test will not say teh NPC are humans, it will say they can be machines that are not diferenciable from humans. I guess Shiroe just made that test in episode 5 when talking to that NPC and I too guess that Shiroe, an engineer student, know about the Turing test. So, just after talk to that NPC Shiroe come with"they are humans".

With no clues about what to do, the players are lost and have no direction for follow. So, just because SAO had all players runing like mad for find the escape at the level 100, to ask for the same behavior at LogHor players is dishonest.

LogHor is avery diferent anime than SAO, LogHor have a lot better story.
Well, whether they can or not depends on how good the simulation is, that's the point. If they have to go down to the subatomic level there's no hope, but you can test for some things (even quantum stuff) with relatively easy equipment: for example if you could produce something like a cathode tube (basically a vacuum glass tube with electrodes inside) you can experiment with electrons. Mulliken's experiment to measure the elementary charge of electrons was incredibly simple too.

In a sense, I think that asking whether we ourselves live or not in a simulation doesn't make sense: a simulation is nothing more than information being processed by an underlying layer of fixed rules, which is exactly how you could describe the universe as well. So there's no telling the two apart because there's no real difference. The only thing that they can faintly hope to do is realize the differences between the real world and the game.
Not saying that they should or that it would necessarily be their top priority. But as the author seems to look at things more from the social sciences point of view, I'm a physicist and will think about the science angle. It's just my take on the problem and I'm fascinated by the challenge itself - how would I proceed to tell whether I'm inside a game world or just, say, a different planet in the same universe?

Of course there's a big difference with SAO, but SAO was also bad for all its own set of reasons that imho had less to do with the fact that they had a linear progression of goals to clear in order to complete the game and more with the fact that the author didn't even know much about MMORPGs to begin with and only wanted to write his sappy romance, resorting to bad cop outs and deus ex machina every time the plot got in its way.

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Was I the only one confused by Shiroe's actions this episode? If they're on the friend list, then couldn't Shiroe just contact the twins and see if they're fine? It's not like he didn't do that with Naotsugu, or when they were riding griffons.

And since random strangers can stalk people (such as with Serara), how come Shiroe didn't just bring up the menu to check if it was the boy that was walking away? Though I guess he COULD do that at the start of next episode...
About Shiroe not contacting the two guys in his friend list, that actually struck me as a nice bit of characterization. Imho Shiroe is not the most sociable person ever (he IS a nerd, after all) and just got in that kind of mind setting where you think that you should not contact someone because you'd probably be bothering them, since they clearly have found their own company which has to be better than boring old you. Of course reality is rather different, and I hope he realizes soon. But I liked it, it was a clear indication of him being book but not street smart.
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Old 2013-11-05, 11:37   Link #1228
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Well, whether they can or not depends on how good the simulation is, that's the point. [...]
If a simulation can make the NPC pass a Turing test and make them not distinguible from humans, that simulation is very good and uses a lot of computational power.

Our current technology cannot make an AI that pass the Turing test. Anyway, that is a simple test, do'nt need make crazy experiments for complete it, just need TALK to NPCs.

Shiroe just did it at episode 5.

Now, any simulation that can make IA not diferenciable from humans and make each thread of hair move independently uses a computational power that is capable of simulate any easy observable phenomena. I think Shiroe is taking it when thinking where they are and he is discarding the question if they are in real world or in a simulation because they have no easy way for test it.

Maybe they really need build a cathode tube for test if they are inside a simulation or not. However, I am not sure if they CAN build a cathode tube. They are no so easy to produce and a medieval society cannot build them. (is glassmaker a subclass? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassblowing If not, forget the cathode tube, it cannot be made).

And if you think that WE don't know if our Universe is a simulation (there are some scientists that are trying test it...), maybe make no diference if LogHor is a simulation or real. If behaves like our reality, LogHor need be treated like it is a new reality.

I am too not sure if players will have time for test it. The OP show armies of monsters marching, possibly against the players. Just think a few out the box: if LogHor is a simulation, as you insist, it is a very good simulation and a very good simulation will make the monsters be sentitent and inteligent. If it is not a simulation, the monster will be sentient and inteligent too.

Sentient and inteligent monsters will sooner or later assemble for destroy the Adventurers. Players are a huge menace agaisnt them because they are farming the monsters.
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Old 2013-11-05, 12:00   Link #1229
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An army of monsters vs the adventurers would ultimately be an endless war though. The monsters respawn and the players are immortal. They can strike each other down all they want but will ultimately be back where they started. Unless the monsters can actually destroy the towns and cut off the player's respawn points.....
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Old 2013-11-05, 12:01   Link #1230
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If a simulation can make the NPC pass a Turing test and make them not distinguible from humans, that simulation is very good and uses a lot of computational power.

Our current technology cannot make an AI that pass the Turing test. Anyway, that is a simple test, do'nt need make crazy experiments for complete it, just need TALK to NPCs.

Shiroe just did it at episode 5.

Now, any simulation that can make IA not diferenciable from humans and make each thread of hair move independently uses a computational power that is capable of simulate any easy observable phenomena. I think Shiroe is taking it when thinking where they are and he is discarding the question if they are in real world or in a simulation because they have no easy way for test it.

Maybe they really need build a cathode tube for test if they are inside a simulation or not. However, I am not sure if they CAN build a cathode tube. They are no so easy to produce and a medieval society cannot build them. (is glassmaker a subclass? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glassblowing If not, forget the cathode tube, it cannot be made).
Shiroe is wearing glasses, so I think glass can be made
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Old 2013-11-05, 12:24   Link #1231
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Shiroe is wearing glasses, so I think glass can be made
Remember that after the Apocalypse the players are no more avatars, but the real players. Shiroe brought that glasses with him when "transfered" from our world to LogHor world. That glasses not existed at the original LogHor world and from episode 1 we know Shiroe original avatar don't had them (that is the reason why Nao make that comment about Shiroe using glasses).

Glasses can be made at our world but no clue about LogHor world. If they don't have glassmakers they cannot make glasses or cathode tubes. And I too like to point that make glass tubes is harder than make glass lens. It is not easy to blown up glass tubes and it will need a high level glassmaker... that I don't think is a popular subclass.
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Old 2013-11-05, 13:32   Link #1232
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Remember that after the Apocalypse the players are no more avatars, but the real players. Shiroe brought that glasses with him when "transfered" from our world to LogHor world. That glasses not existed at the original LogHor world and from episode 1 we know Shiroe original avatar don't had them (that is the reason why Nao make that comment about Shiroe using glasses).

Glasses can be made at our world but no clue about LogHor world. If they don't have glassmakers they cannot make glasses or cathode tubes. And I too like to point that make glass tubes is harder than make glass lens. It is not easy to blown up glass tubes and it will need a high level glassmaker... that I don't think is a popular subclass.
Probably. Something interesting in anime though, when they killed a monster, it seems there are what looks like bottles of potion as loots. If that is true, I wonder what is the bottle made of.
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Old 2013-11-05, 16:14   Link #1233
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The problem with trying to do a physics test to check if the world is real is that a simulation can just simulate the correct result. For example, even if there are no germs, so can you a microscope show what you are supposed to see. Trying to generate electricity, be shown sparks etc.
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Old 2013-11-05, 16:35   Link #1234
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Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
Our industrial civilization cannot test "we are inside a game" theory. I doubt 30 k players lost at Yamato server, in middle of D&D world with no Dungeon Master for guide them (or an evil villain for say them that they need go to level 100 for escape that world), can test it too.
Like Gan_Hope said, it depends on the simulation.

Quote:
The best they can do is talk to NPC and see if they pass the Turing test, but remember the Turing test will not say teh NPC are humans, it will say they can be machines that are not diferenciable from humans.
All it means is that they either made very good NPCs, or that the NPCs are, like adventurers, humans, but with different, less favorable rules. Who were born and raised in the ET world. (Or maybe the adventurers themselves are constructs, who knows? Not the players, certainly.) It doesn't mean, if it's simulation, that corners haven't been cut elsewhere.

Quote:
I guess Shiroe just made that test in episode 5 when talking to that NPC and I too guess that Shiroe, an engineer student, know about the Turing test. So, just after talk to that NPC Shiroe come with"they are humans".
Being an engineering student doesn't exactly qualify you to give the Turing test, but whatever.

Quote:
With no clues about what to do, the players are lost and have no direction for follow.
With no clue, they should search for clues. Everywhere and anywhere they can think of.

Quote:
So, just because SAO had all players runing like mad for find the escape at the level 100, to ask for the same behavior at LogHor players is dishonest.

LogHor is avery diferent anime than SAO, LogHor have a lot better story.
So, who's obsessed with SAO again?

What you don't seem to understand, is that it never was about easy answers. Not about finding a kindly NPCs to tell them "do X and you'll go home". It's about understanding their situation so they can make informed decisions. Even if there's no way out, understanding the world they're in will aid them in bettering their circumstances. (For example, how to make good food should have been figured out in two days, tops, and then the info disseminated to everyone.)

There are obvious differences with our world. Here, death doesn't teleport you to a cathedral. We have no hovering menus and no spells. What are the other, less obvious differences?

Just like there are millions of adventurers, there are millions of NPCs. They're different, but they're humans. Maybe more so than the players. So, what are the differences? How do the NPCs think?

Yes, I expect a lot of those endeavors in information gathering to be wild goose chases that don't yield useful information. But there's no telling which they'll be without trying. Plus, it gives them something to do. Some of their problems come from the simple fact they're bored.

Or, hey, you can accept your preconceived notions (derived from... what? Spoilers and the OP that the players didn't see? Expectation that the story they're in will use the exact tropes you think it will?) as fact. It'll save you the bother to check anything. There's obviously no way that kind of attitude can bite you in the ass.
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Old 2013-11-05, 16:49   Link #1235
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Being an engineering student doesn't exactly qualify you to give the Turing test, but whatever.
But qualify for make experiments for see if they are in a simulation or not?

I see the high qualified graduation students have a low IQ...
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Old 2013-11-05, 16:51   Link #1236
Johaocarl
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Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
Probably. Something interesting in anime though, when they killed a monster, it seems there are what looks like bottles of potion as loots. If that is true, I wonder what is the bottle made of.
That bottles were not player-made... so, who player will craft the cathod tube? Maybe they need ask it to a goblin...
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Old 2013-11-05, 16:57   Link #1237
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Johaocarl View Post
But qualify for make experiments for see if they are in a simulation or not?
Depends on the simulation. I wasn't precisely thinking of anything really complicated. Frankly, you're too obsessed with that question. Just because an experiment doesn't settle that particular issue doesn't mean it's not an experiment worth doing.

My point, which was a throwaway remark anyway, was that an engineering student didn't have to have studied the relevant fields to give a Turing test. Which would make him neither more nor less qualified than a lay person.
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Old 2013-11-05, 18:42   Link #1238
darksassin
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Like Gan_Hope said, it depends on the simulation.


All it means is that they either made very good NPCs, or that the NPCs are, like adventurers, humans, but with different, less favorable rules. Who were born and raised in the ET world. (Or maybe the adventurers themselves are constructs, who knows? Not the players, certainly.) It doesn't mean, if it's simulation, that corners haven't been cut elsewhere.


Being an engineering student doesn't exactly qualify you to give the Turing test, but whatever.


With no clue, they should search for clues. Everywhere and anywhere they can think of.


So, who's obsessed with SAO again?

What you don't seem to understand, is that it never was about easy answers. Not about finding a kindly NPCs to tell them "do X and you'll go home". It's about understanding their situation so they can make informed decisions. Even if there's no way out, understanding the world they're in will aid them in bettering their circumstances. (For example, how to make good food should have been figured out in two days, tops, and then the info disseminated to everyone.)

There are obvious differences with our world. Here, death doesn't teleport you to a cathedral. We have no hovering menus and no spells. What are the other, less obvious differences?

Just like there are millions of adventurers, there are millions of NPCs. They're different, but they're humans. Maybe more so than the players. So, what are the differences? How do the NPCs think?

Yes, I expect a lot of those endeavors in information gathering to be wild goose chases that don't yield useful information. But there's no telling which they'll be without trying. Plus, it gives them something to do. Some of their problems come from the simple fact they're bored.

Or, hey, you can accept your preconceived notions (derived from... what? Spoilers and the OP that the players didn't see? Expectation that the story they're in will use the exact tropes you think it will?) as fact. It'll save you the bother to check anything. There's obviously no way that kind of attitude can bite you in the ass.
I think the problems is you are disatissfied that the characters didnt do what you think they should do. Lets face it, the characters arent you.

Whether the npcs are "human" or not, it doesnt matter, since most, if not players cannot tell the difference. Even if there were a few people that might be able to diffrentiate them, it would take a very long time to get a result. The answer can only be "No, they arent human" or "inconclusive" And even if they are just npc, in what way can that fact help them getting back?

Whether the world is inside a game, simulation or otherwise is also the same, the fact doesnt help that much for them to escape

There are reasons why medieval times doesnt see much progress. One of them is general unrest. Which is probably the same thing happening here.Also, lets say a group of people found an alien, foreign land. Usually they wont explore that land right of the bat. Usually they would establish a camp or base that usually provide safety and sense of security mentally, plan how to explore and execute it.

Also, you seemed to forget that most players were probably young and immature. They suddenly got thrown into an unknown world. What do you think will happen to their mind. For me, it wouldnt surprise me if some of the players go mad from that alone. Hence, the unrest and chaos. So, you cant expect them to immediately try to find answers and experiments nonstop

As for adult, mature players, if they are sensible, they would most likely try to calm and manage both other players and the situation. An example would be Henrietta and Marielle. They got their hands full managing the players under them. And they basically in a desperate situation when Serara needed help. And that was just a relatively small guild. It would probably be quite a sight managing large guild if the leaders arent charismatic enough.

As for guildless, lone player, the thought of being alone in a new world would be crippling to most people. And usually these lone guildless players were beginners who probably just played for maybe a few weeks, days or even probably just hours. That would be a really terrible burden if you are newbies, since you basically wouldnt know much about the game

There is no easy way to start looking for answer in this kind of situation. That is one of the reason. The players have many choices to pick from. And usually doubt and fear will cloud your mind. If the players try to find the answers blindly it would be very inefficient and maybe futile. Lets say for example a lone player try to find a clue by asking an npc many question. If he didnt get any answer from that npc he askes another npc. There are probably millions left. How long do you think he will last alone? The burden will keep piling up and maybe he would feel that it is futile later on. In this kind of situation, it would be really hard to find a truly optimistic people. And those who do were probably just faking it to avoid worse situation

Fear, feeling of being alone, despair, hopelessness and insecurities can be a massive deterrent in doing anything.

About the cooking method not discovered fast, it is still quite believable really. You usually wouldnt discover it unless you stumbled upon it or think outside the box , or didnt give up type.
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Old 2013-11-05, 19:07   Link #1239
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by darksassin View Post
I think the problems is you are disatissfied that the characters didnt do what you think they should do. Lets face it, the characters arent you.
I think the problem is that you're trying to read my mind instead of plainly reading what I wrote. I'm not saying I'm dissatisfied with the characters. I'm saying I disagree with the diagnosis there's nothing they can do but putz around and take care of only immediate goals. There's a lot to do, and no way to tell if it's going to help or not before you've done it.

I'll also point out two things:
- giving people simple tasks with clear goals would help. Boredom and idleness are their enemies. Not, say, starvation or disease, the usual enemies of castaways.
- they're immortal. That alone is a huge advantage over medieval would-be explorers. They also have means of instantaneous communication and memories of a modern society. All that adds up to: the hurdles they face to discover or confirm a few basic facts about their situation are very, very low. Sure, they'll run out of easy stuff eventually. But they haven't, yet.
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Old 2013-11-05, 19:25   Link #1240
tsunade666
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Even if they are immortal. Its impossible for modern day people to suddenly goes out of the wild and face monster. They would be surely scared and will take time to adjust. They are there for just a few weeks or more than a month. You expect them to get over the sudden change of environment and be able to function properly?
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