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Old 2013-11-23, 02:22   Link #1421
Ayulsa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
That's just Japanese gaming culture showing. They don't like PvP much.
More like they like to separate the games. PvP oriented games and PvE oriented games. Look at FEZ, people still play that in Japan and it's a pure pvp game, it's old as heck too.

Not to mention, in-verse Elder Tale is an American made game.
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Old 2013-11-23, 05:35   Link #1422
Keroko
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Originally Posted by J4n1 View Post
Maybe, but now that the game has become real, PVP'rs are basically nothing but murderers. Any actual justifications for involuntary pvp like "it's just a game" have stopped working, and
Spoiler for novel stuff:
Might want to tag that spoiler.

Anyhoo, prior to the spoilered becoming knowledge, there really is no reason to call PvP murder. You fight someone, they die then respawn and you take the spoils of war. It's one of the few rules of this world. Calling it murder... how would that even fly?
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Old 2013-11-23, 06:06   Link #1423
Ickarium
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At the very least, it's torture and assault. You can't hide behind it's a game when they actually feel your blade cutting into their body or your fireball spell burning them.

Saying 'But they'll come back' isn't really an excuse.
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Old 2013-11-23, 07:04   Link #1424
Keroko
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Pain is a lot less for adventurers though. Hardy folk.

And there's a difference between the gankers and griefers we've seen in the series so far, and genuine PvPers. The former are assholes who gang up on people for their own image of superiority. The later do so because they like the challenge and enjoyment of facing against another player, and wouldn't (usually) gank lowbies for no good reason.

Point is, while Log Horizon paints any form of PvP in a negative light due to the Japanese gaming culture behind it (compare to the western playerbase, that doesn't even use the term player killing because we find it so redundant), PvP in itself isn't evil. Just look at every single fighting sport we have. People beating on eachother till one goes down. And yet both sides willingly participate because they enjoy it.
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Old 2013-11-23, 07:11   Link #1425
Sheba
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Akiba needs a Fight Club to curb people's inherent aggressivity.
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Old 2013-11-23, 07:29   Link #1426
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Pain is a lot less for adventurers though. Hardy folk.
Pain felt depends on ones level/strength. For a level 90 adventurer, then the pain felt would lessen compare to lower levels. Which is why what Magus planned is simply bad. Killing low levels and stealing their items. Forcing them to join Hamelin because they don't have a choice.
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Old 2013-11-23, 07:45   Link #1427
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Pain felt depends on ones level/strength. For a level 90 adventurer, then the pain felt would lessen compare to lower levels. Which is why what Magus planned is simply bad. Killing low levels and stealing their items. Forcing them to join Hamelin because they don't have a choice.
This.
And even if it hurts only a little, it's still not ok for you to come up to me and start poking me with a needle and take my stuff.

In Log Horizon, pvp is no more harmless fun, or even griefing, it's assault, torture, and theft.
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Old 2013-11-23, 09:07   Link #1428
Keroko
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Yyyyyes? Which is why I said there is a difference between the griefers we've seen so far and other types of PvPers?
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Old 2013-11-23, 09:26   Link #1429
J4n1
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In this situation, there is no actual difference.
Well, there is a degree, some might attack only those who can fight back, some might only prey on the weak, but unless it's a mutually agreed upon fight, it's assault and/or theft, and possibly torture.
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Old 2013-11-23, 10:20   Link #1430
Ickarium
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Pretty much yeah. In this situation, there is absolutely no difference. PvP in this world is absolutely wrong. Saying 'Oh, they're adventurers, so it doesn't hurt as much' isn't an excuse. It still hurts. And very well might have secondary repercussions.

In a real game, of course, this is different. Heck, I enjoy PvP, though more organized PvP to what some games call 'World PvP' as the GIFT rears its head and it becomes a case of idiots killing lowbies and hiding behind 'It's PvP! Why so serious?! </insert other lame meme here>'

Though I do think most PvP games tend to have a lot worse communities. Heck, pure PvP games like MOBA games tend to have some of the worst reputations ever. S'why I refuse to play League of Legends without friends. PvP, due to competition, seems to bring out the worst in people.
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Old 2013-11-23, 10:30   Link #1431
Keroko
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Of course there is a difference. Duels? Arena matches? Tournaments? A group of players building a base on new ground and defending it against interlopers? There's dozens of methods of PvP that differ from "I gank lowbies for the lulz."
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Old 2013-11-23, 10:32   Link #1432
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Attacking low levels is just plain low and stupid. People who do such things aren't even worth calling "gamer"

If you want pvp battle, then battle people on the same level.
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Old 2013-11-23, 10:43   Link #1433
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I myself love to PvP the games i play have an arena that anyone can enter and fight. I can spend a long time just going around and fighting anyone that enters. Although i'm against fighting those that dont want to fight.
I'm guessing after a while something like organized fighting will be introduced where people can pay and watch others fight. Like a log horizon Colosseum.
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Old 2013-11-23, 11:13   Link #1434
J4n1
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Of course there is a difference. Duels? Arena matches? Tournaments? A group of players building a base on new ground and defending it against interlopers? There's dozens of methods of PvP that differ from "I gank lowbies for the lulz."
Yes, there is.
But in the situation that the players of Elder Tales are now, all those are immaterial, it is no longer a game, any pvp activity is attacking, and hurting, actual people.

We have no knowledge about Elder Tales pvp apart that there seems to be no player factions as such, and pvp is free for all everywhere except where combat is disabled completely.
Arenas probably exist, but whether or not those have any quests or rewards involved, we don't know.
Also, this game seems to lack lfg and insta port features to dungeons, so any arenas will probably be non instanced places to fight instead of arenas like we see in WoW for example.
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Old 2013-11-23, 11:32   Link #1435
Keroko
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I don't see how "it hurts now" would stop people from PvPing. Fighting sports never stopped existing just because they hurt and I am very confident that a lot of PvP players would be overjoyed to get to do real fighting now. The average LARPer for example is already used to getting hurt during a fight when people get overexited. And now they're in a world that lets them fight to their hearts content with (to their knowledge) no permanent consequences if they get stabbed? A lot of people would jump at that opportunity.
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Old 2013-11-23, 11:40   Link #1436
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I think that fewer people would than you expect. And I say that as someone who actually does enjoy PvPing in a structured environment. Also, and this is just a guess, I'm pretty sure that being killed does more than hurt in this world.

It's so old-school in so many respects that I expect an experience loss or some other major issue that would make death kind of not fun even outside the pain.
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Old 2013-11-23, 11:53   Link #1437
LystAP
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I don't see how "it hurts now" would stop people from PvPing. Fighting sports never stopped existing just because they hurt and I am very confident that a lot of PvP players would be overjoyed to get to do real fighting now. The average LARPer for example is already used to getting hurt during a fight when people get overexited. And now they're in a world that lets them fight to their hearts content with (to their knowledge) no permanent consequences if they get stabbed? A lot of people would jump at that opportunity.
A fair amount of PvPers play for the competitive element against intelligent opponents, and unlike most PvEers, who are used to more static elements found in boss fights and other PvE encounters, PvPers have experience when it comes to fighting against something that thinks. After the Apocalypse, all the NPCs
Spoiler for Monsters:
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Old 2013-11-23, 12:43   Link #1438
Quol
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Thats if the monsters have human level intelligence, most monsters, while being able to strategize are at a low intellect level compared to the average human. I think PvEers would have the easiest time adapting to the new world because they are used to fighting mobs and know more about monsters than PvPers.
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Old 2013-11-23, 12:45   Link #1439
Ickarium
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This argument won't have a resolution.

The 'PvP is for skilled people, no, PvE is for skilled people' argument is a big one in many places.

Frankly, both have elements that are true, but it's not as simple as one is more skilled than the other.
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Old 2013-11-23, 12:53   Link #1440
Quol
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Originally Posted by Ickarium View Post
This argument won't have a resolution.

The 'PvP is for skilled people, no, PvE is for skilled people' argument is a big one in many places.

Frankly, both have elements that are true, but it's not as simple as one is more skilled than the other.
I'm talking about which would have an easier time adapting to the catastrophe. In my opinion PvEers would have a better time because with the change there are less people fighting each other. Most monsters while being able to think for themselves are not that smart so the advantage would be with the people who know more about monsters and their attacks as well as locations than players that have more experience fighting human level intelligence. There are also other factors to consider for example PvEers would have more mob fighting experience than PvPers ect...
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