[Manga] Naruto Chapter 619 Discussion Thread

[solidguy]

Originally Posted by Shining Celebi

He was. But things have since been retconned to give Hashirama a bigger role and since it would be absurd to have the Third be stronger than the newly-repowered Hashirama, Hashirama gets retconned as the god of shinobi and we're all supposed to forget about it.

that sucks big time. i always wanted the third to be the most powerful character in the series...i mean he took on the 1st and 2nd and orochimaru and the sound four (that barrier was a crucial part of the battle). the village prospered and became the most powerful of the great 5 under his direction idk it just seems like shitty story telling just blatantly palm off that issue

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

Maybe we'll be lucky and he'll receive a significant power-up from Minato which he'd obviously need after being able to defeat 4 of the strongest ninjas of all time. Doubling the Kyuubi's chakra, extending the time he can spend in kyuubi-mode(hell, why even have to turn it off), and a few more surprise enhancements and abilities should do it. One enhancement should be the ability to fly; he's a wind type after all.

Well, its because this manga is a shounen. I'm of the opinion that this manga would be much better had it been targeted at an older crowd and was instead a Seinen manga (If that name is correct?). While I certainly consider this a great manga and find it fun to read, I still feel there is so much wasted potential in quite a few aspects. For instance, real romance would create another dynamic and be able to offer many more possible plot developments and conflicts. What we get here are instances of pointless teasing, that never go anywhere. (which I find hilarious considering the intensely passionate shippers we have around here ready to pounce, and came out the woodworks just at Naruto and Hinata holding hands )

The shounen characteristic of the main character being the absolute best at nearly everything and recieving constant upgrades resulting in the strength levels ridiculously disproportionate is very annoying and stupid imo. It'd be nicer to have the characters a bit older as well (perhaps early twenties if some of them are overseeing villages for crying out loud). Also, while I like the protagonist to be one of the best; he doesn't have to be the absolute best. This leaves things exciting imo, and not contrived, and cliche`.

In this arc, perhaps it would have been a better idea not to use overuse this Edo Tensei jutsu to this extent(especially for some of the shitty fights we've had to sit though). For example, in this situation Sasuke could be made to simply speak to the Kage's spirits somehow, similar to the way a Sith and Jedi communicate with their Master's spirits through the force(just as an example, I realize the situation with them being sealed in the shirigami). Unfortunately, I guess bringing them back via Edo Tensei pretty much ensures that they'll be brought into this so called "ninja war".

[justavisitor]

I just hope that the author remembers the "weakness" of Edo Tensei he created and Tobirama has to break free from the spell like Madara. I have a hard time imagining such a serious personality like Tobirama is willing to be controlled by someone else. (Tobirama is also like a control-freak after all XD)

It would be quite hilarious if all 4 hokages know the Edo Tensei...but I am thinking the author is somehow trying to upgrade Sasuke via the revival of those 4 hokages (it seems Naruto is too strong compared to Sasuke..after all at this very moment Sasuke is just another Madara at best) and this is something I don't really like to see

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I just hope that the author remembers the "weakness" of Edo Tensei he created and Tobirama has to break free from the spell like Madara.

it's practically a given since kishi keeps reminding us that tobirama invented the technique. this is the triumphant return of konoha's legends from an eternal prison of suffering. they'll have their time to shine for certain before they all make peace and have their souls go where they belong

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by justavisitor

I just hope that the author remembers the "weakness" of Edo Tensei he created and Tobirama has to break free from the spell like Madara.

The 1st began to say something about the Edo Tensei but the 2nd suddenly interrupted him, so maybe he was about to tell the real problem with Edo Tensei. Edo Tensei is too strong of a jutsu to be perfect. The so called "weakness" that we saw in Itachi's case isn't really a weakness of the jutsu since it was another godlike jutsu which required Shisui's unique eye that overpowered it. In Madara's case the control wasn't really broken, Itachi mind controlled Kabuto to stop the jutsu and Madara was freed at that point, he just made sure not to return to the world of the dead. So i think that the 1st and 2nd will reveal the real weakness of the jutsu later. The problem with Edo Tensei is that the basic laws of nature are completely thrown away in this case, it has infinite durability, chakra, stamina. The risk of Edo Tensei has been made clear alredy by example of Madara, given what we know about it right now he could go around the world for eternity and do whatever he wants. But there should be a source of this power that doesn't come from the physical world, the infinite energy might come from the world of the dead. And if so it should have some limitation, for example it could be that as time passes Madara will mentally degenerate as a side effect of drawing all that energy from the other dimension. Maybe Edo Tensei is a lesser version of a jutsu that created the 10-tails, if it's a human creation. It would be interesting if Madara began to lose his personality and his mind and became like the 10-tails, a mindless killing machine. He could even fuse with Obito's 10-tails at that point

Originally Posted by The Small One

I think you greatly misjudge Danzou.
All his actions were for the village.

I don't even want to write about how wrong this is, since Hunter already did that. But reading this after reading the current chapter made it clear: if the Hokages were not scared of the Uchiha clan for the reason explained in this chapter and if Danzou didn't plot against both the Uchiha and the village then it would be very clear that Itachi must be made the next hokage, that is the 5th hokage. Page 11 tells us that the old 3rd hokage was aware that when Itachi was just 7 years old he was already thinking like a hokage. He was already considered a prodigy and we have already seen how strong he became multiple times (best example was shortly after he joined akatsuki he easily beats Orochimaru who almost became the 4th hokage). Add to this that making Itachi the hokage could have been the best and only peaceful soltution to the conflict between the village and the Uchiha. The elders should have decided and the 3rd hokage should have told to Itachi: "You are the next hokage", at age 13 (many became kages at a young age, Gaara, Sarutobi, the mizukage that was controlled, all far weaker than Itachi at that age). And if Danzou were a guy who works for the village he would have accepted that. If the 3rd was a flawless leader he would have not only done that but also he would have killed Danzou if necessary.

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I don't even want to write about how wrong this is, since Hunter already did that. But reading this after reading the current chapter made it clear: if the Hokages were not scared of the Uchiha clan for the reason explained in this chapter and if Danzou didn't plot against both the Uchiha and the village then it would be very clear that Itachi must be made the next hokage, that is the 5th hokage. Page 11 tells us that the old 3rd hokage was aware that when Itachi was just 7 years old he was already thinking like a hokage. He was already considered a prodigy and we have already seen how strong he became multiple times (best example was shortly after he joined akatsuki he easily beats Orochimaru who almost became the 4th hokage). Add to this that making Itachi the hokage could have been the best and only peaceful soltution to the conflict between the village and the Uchiha. The elders should have decided and the 3rd hokage should have told to Itachi: "You are the next hokage", at age 13 (many became kages at a young age, Gaara, Sarutobi, the mizukage that was controlled, all far weaker than Itachi at that age). And if Danzou were a guy who works for the village he would have accepted that. If the 3rd was a flawless leader he would have not only done that but also he would have killed Danzou if necessary.

sasuke will be made hokage, whilst naruto travels the world preaching...

[Kowai]

Is oro-zetsu weak because zetsu was weak, like fragile? Or was zetsu called weak for some other reason like not having jujutsu?

I would say wow oro can steal chakra now but he could probably already do that anyways...

So who is going to win sasuke vs the 2nd? And why would sasuke fight zombies? He took off his cloak and activated his ms he has to fight someone here

[Dengar]

Ahahaha, Hashirama is hilarious. I like him a lot.

Aaaand apparently the Uchiha are now genetically predisposed to become emo.


Actually, I don't know about the majority of people, but I'm sort of willing to give the writer a bit of a break on that one now. Not so much forgive Sasuke, but at least the writer gave us something of an explanation as to why he (And Obito and Madara) are like that.

So... Love makes you evil, and grants you the power of hate.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

So... Love makes you evil, and grants you the power of hate.

I think it was yoda who said emotions lead to love, love leads to despair and despair leads to sharingan

[yogotah]

I think this was one of the best chapters of the last two years.
Who would have thought that Hashirama had this kind of personality, I was expecting an Aizen-like personality with a touch of compassion. I guess it was hinted before that he would be like Naruto but it seems that Hashirama has gone over a pretty big transformation since the time that Orichimaru summoned him to fight the Third.

At first, I did crinch at the fact at the love angle that was proposed for the reasoning of the Uchiha curse, but I've more accepting of that now. The only thing that I don't like is the notion that their brains are actually altered after experiencing loss, are you telling me that they are not acting rationally because they are mentally sick?

If Obito or Sasuke had talked to a psychiatrist, would they have turned out fine?

I don't want to give excuses for the action that the Uchiha has taken, but now they have officially become scapegoats.

Oh well, let' see where it takes us.

[mystogan]

Originally Posted by yogotah

At first, I did crinch at the fact at the love angle that was proposed for the reasoning of the Uchiha curse, but I've more accepting of that now. The only thing that I don't like is the notion that their brains are actually altered after experiencing loss, are you telling me that they are not acting rationally because they are mentally sick?

If Obito or Sasuke had talked to a psychiatrist, would they have turned out fine?

I don't want to give excuses for the action that the Uchiha has taken, but now they have officially become scapegoats.

Oh well, let' see where it takes us.

i don't think their brains are altered , but due to the loss their optic nerve changes immensely granting them 'the sharingan'(as per told by Tobirama),there might be some alteration biologically, but i don't think it alters their emotions and feelings,

you see when one goes through deep emotion trauma and then obtains great power just after the loss, would you not put that to use and try make your self feel better through any means necessary,
when one does go through such a state normally wild and destructive thoughts are floating in the mind but they are not executable, but when you obtain a power that can make that possible and put others to misery only so that you are not the only one suffering, it's not the same

as for your question, i don't think it would have been any different if the two had actually met a psychiatrist and neither they are mentally sick but are just powerful enough to make things happen that normally a person lacks when under depression

[Hunter]

It's not that they are mentally sick (although it's funnier to say it this way) but it does alter their behavior. Basically their relation with anguish, hatred, power and chakra is a vicious circle : their anguish and pain directly translate into more power and stronger/darker chakra which in turn increase their hatred which lead to even more power, etc.
The fact that Senju DNA seems to increase all Uchiha traits could even explain an extreme case like Obito who changed from a good guy to a maniac virtually instantly.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

sasuke will be made hokage, whilst naruto travels the world preaching...

I wrote about this possibility a few years ago
Naruto is reaching a level beyond kage both in terms of power and thinking. Of course he is dumb, so by thinking i don't mean intelligence but the way he thinks about the world. Of course he has to since Jiraiya did entrust him to bring peace for the world. But its difficult to have him in that role if he is represents one village, unless the current ninja alliance between villages becomes even stronger, but what would be Naruto's role in bringing peace if this war already brought a final world peace. So Kishimoto can choose to have Naruto as hokage in a ninja alliance of the peaceful times, this is less realistic in my opinion, but of course the manga is not about being realistic. It would actually be boring to have Naruto become hokage. The other issue that is more interesting than the peace between villages is the inner peace of a village. Until now they had their tailed beasts, and they made huge sacrifices in order to have those demons at disposal, it clearly destabilized the villages, there was much hatred because of all the people that were sacrificed and also the tailed beasts were kept as slaves. Obviously Naruto won't allow that to happen, he already made a promise to let these 9 go free, but if he just freed them into the world there would be trouble, some organizations and villages would go after them. The solution to this might involve Naruto not becoming the hokage, he could give up his personal dream in order to make justice for both these 9 tailed beasts that were treated like slaves for decades and also for the Uchiha by letting Sasuke become hokage. Because if Naruto doesn't want to become hokage and Sasuke at last joins Naruto then the only possible candidate for hokage would be Sasuke, he's far stronger than anyone from Konoha, just like Itachi was. I hope Kishimoto reminds us that Itachi had the right to become hokage but was denied because of his heritage, if Naruto ever tells that Sasuke should be the 6th there surely will be people to oppose it because of the clan even if Sasuke just recently saved Naruto and with it the whole world, and of course that would give Kishimoto the opportunity to write a really emotional and cheesy speech for Naruto

[Dengar]

I'd vote Naruto for First Omnikage.


Anyway, I think the antifandom will become highly amusing when they hear about this.

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I wrote about this possibility a few years ago
Naruto is reaching a level beyond kage both in terms of power and thinking. Of course he is dumb, so by thinking i don't mean intelligence but the way he thinks about the world.

What does he think about the world, whats his philosophy?

[Dengar]

His philosophy that people need to learn to understand eachother's pain rather than keep fighting and causing eachother even more pain.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

sasuke will be made hokage, whilst naruto travels the world preaching...

Originally Posted by Dengar

I'd vote Naruto for First Omnikage.

sekaikage? i do agree that naruto is already beyond hokage level. i still think he will be hokage since its been his motto since day 1 but i do like the idea of sasuke becoming hokage and naruto becoming jesus and walking the earth. he certainly cares about everyone as opposed to just konoha. he'd basically be the next So6P and preside over all ninja given his ridiculous power

[Artful Dodger]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

sekaikage? i do agree that naruto is already beyond hokage level. i still think he will be hokage since its been his motto since day 1 but i do like the idea of sasuke becoming hokage and naruto becoming jesus and walking the earth. he certainly cares about everyone as opposed to just konoha. he'd basically be the next So6P and preside over all ninja given his ridiculous power

Oh I love traveling ninja stories (Jubei from NinjaScroll comes to mind ). I think it would be a great read regardless of who would take this role, but I see Sasuke as more of the wanderer type who occasionally shows up back in Konoha for a special episode/arc. I feel theres really nothing much for him to do in Konoha. I'm sure he'll eventually be accepted again once he reconciles with Naruto, but for him to be Hokage just seems awkward. Naruto just feels born for that role, even besides him stating its his dream for hundreds of chapters, but also that he so intensely LOVES his village.

I do like the irony of Sasuke as the Hokage, since that would mean that an Uchiha is finally fully accepted as part of the village and he is tasked with watching over the village he once condemned and hated, but with his personality, the wanderer role seems better suited. He doesn't have much of a meaningful relationship with anyone there (except perhaps Kakashi, or Sakura if you want to push it), and to me it would be fitting for him to travel the world, spreading a world paradigm of peace learned from Naruto and righting the wrongs that he happens to come across, considering how much wrong and controversy he has managed to cause himself.

Naruto traveling would be a great read also, considering he was tasked to spread peace throughout the world; it also makes sense. As I said, I think it would be a great read regardless of who wanders, but Sasuke as the hokage just doesn't feel like the best fit. Even after reconciling through whatever means (saving Naruto's life, saving the entire village, etc.) I just don't see the people loving Sasuke as much as they love Naruto.

[The Small One]

I really wonder what will happen to the alliance after this war is over.
At the moment it really develops into some sort of understanding between the different ninja villages and it's hard to believe they are going to fight each other again after what they've gone through together. (I hope there won't be some twist like Madara planning to unite them all by giving them a common enemy)

One thing we have to consider though is, that those ninjas aren't political powers. They are basically nothing more than the military of their respective countries, while the real power lies with others (the feudal lords). So if the villages proclaim, that they are all friends now, the lords may not be pleased with this turn of events. I mean all the powerful fighters of the world suddenly uniting, should make them fear about their power and starting some sort of war.

[Dengar]

I don't think the Daimyo can actually control the villages if the villages decide that peace is the thing they want.