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Old 2013-02-11, 14:19   Link #141
james0246
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
By this definition of bad person 99.9999% of humans are bad. I think none of these characters should be called bad, they were put in extreme conditions and they failed in some matters, but most humans would fail just like they did.
Hunter (and Kishimoto ) has already established that Naruto is "good", consequently all that do not act like Naruto (or Hashirama) are "bad". There are very few shades of grey in the Narutoverse (Sarutobi?), and being "bad" does not mean you are "evil".

I am not discussing the real world, so please do not bring up realistic examples of humanity or human interaction. The Narutoverse does not correlate to reality, and Naruto is always correct (even when he is not).

Last edited by james0246; 2013-02-11 at 17:11.
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:22   Link #142
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Hunter has already established that Naruto is "good", consequently all that do not act like Naruto (or Hashirama) are "bad". There are very few shades of grey in the Narutoverse, and being "bad" does not mean you are "evil".

I am not discussing the real world, so please do not bring up realistic examples of humanity or human interaction. The Narutoverse does not correlate to reality, and Naruto is always correct (even when he is not).
I didn't want to discuss the real world either, it's more about what we mean by "bad", it would be a really depressing world - be it a manga world or the real - where we call most of the people "bad". Can't they be just average or something like that?
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Old 2013-02-11, 14:30   Link #143
james0246
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
I didn't want to discuss the real world either, it's more about what we mean by "bad", it would be a really depressing world - be it a manga world or the real - where we call most of the people "bad". Can't they be just average or something like that?
Very well, unnamed characters do not matter (they have no personalities, thus no alignment). Consequently, quite a bit of the Narutoverse is "good" (acts like Naruto...or at least follows his whims), arguably the vast majority is currently "good", with only a few characters still "bad". Within the Narutoverse, there were more "bad" characters in the past, but the "good" characters were always amongst the most powerful (Hashirama, Minato, Jiraiya, etc).
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Old 2013-02-11, 17:17   Link #144
Dengar
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Nagato and Itachi bad people?

They did fail at doing the right thing, but they're not bad people.


Maybe the word you're looking for is weak or flawed if you think weak is inappropreate.


A bad person is someone who kicks puppies for whatever reason.


I hereby proclaim that Tobi would kick a puppy if it meant seeing Rin again.
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Old 2013-02-11, 17:51   Link #145
james0246
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Nagato and Itachi bad people?

They did fail at doing the right thing, but they're not bad people.


Maybe the word you're looking for is weak or flawed if you think weak is inappropriate.
Bearing in mind I already gave the meta reason for their placement as "bad" characters:

Nagato arguably terrorized and then finally subjugated an entire nation. He systematically slaughtered his entire opposition down to the babies in their cradles. He was not merely a weak or flawed individual.

Itachi thought the only way to peace was the complete annihilation of an entire group of people. He committed genocide in hopes of stabilizing a region of the world. He was not merely a weak or flawed individual.

They, and others, may have had high ideals or end goals that were idyllic, but they still committed truly bad acts, sometimes even evil, in order to attain their goals. Now I agree that you do not have to be "evil" to be a bad guy (thank you Ralph ), but mass murder is a bit different. They were ultimately bad people.

Last edited by james0246; 2013-02-11 at 18:41.
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Old 2013-02-11, 18:07   Link #146
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But neither of them have ever kicked a puppy or anything equivalent.

Both of them also happen to have taken responsibility for their actions. So no they're not bad people. Just wrong.
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Old 2013-02-11, 18:20   Link #147
james0246
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
But neither of them have ever kicked a puppy or anything equivalent.
I think mass murder is a little worse than kicking a dog...

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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Both of them also happen to have taken responsibility for their actions. So no they're not bad people. Just wrong.
Why can't a bad person become a good person? It's called redemption for a reason...

As it is, I still am unsure if I would classify either as being "good" (mass murder is a little hard to wipe away, even if you do have the power to resurrect many of those that have died or you're really really sorry).

(btw, I do agree that both admitted to being failures.)
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Old 2013-02-11, 18:46   Link #148
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Hm... It's hard to explain what makes kicking a dog worse than mass murder. Maybe it's one of those things that you either "get" or "don't get". Some people here should get what I mean tho.

It's a personality-defining thing.
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Old 2013-02-11, 18:53   Link #149
james0246
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
It's a personality-defining thing.
Fair enough. Personally, I think you are talking about a sociopath, not simply a "bad" person, but we seem to have differing opinions on the issue.
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Old 2013-02-11, 18:56   Link #150
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So what you're saying is, your definition of "bad person" is "a person who does bad things" whereas mine is not.
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Old 2013-02-11, 18:58   Link #151
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Hm... It's hard to explain what makes kicking a dog worse than mass murder. Maybe it's one of those things that you either "get" or "don't get". Some people here should get what I mean tho.

It's a personality-defining thing.
It's the same reason James Cameron decided to make his blue people look like cats, with those noses and big ol' eyes, to get the audience to instantly take a liking to them. We like cute animals, that's just the way it is. That's why it sucks when they die in movies, cause they're completely innocent, and don't know anything about evil and stuff.

Conversely, whatever you may think of the whole "one death a tragedy, a million a statistic" thing, in fiction it actually does apply. Why do you think everybody was annoyed during the war that none of the named good guys were dying, just nameless ninja? We didn't know any of those casualties. We didn't care about them, or have any sort of connection with them, not even through one of the characters we do know and love. They weren't even real people, just narrative bowling pins for the villains.

That's pretty much the difference.
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Old 2013-02-11, 19:11   Link #152
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Nagato and Itachi bad people?
By james0246's definition since Naruto changed them they are now good. In case of Nagato it was clear that he was bad before he changed his mind in the end. But in case of Itachi it's quite debatable, but going by james' strict definition he was bad. By debatable i mean killing some people to prevent the death of many more people is debatable (for example dropping the atomic bombs on japan killed a lot but saved many more on both sides), the 1st hokage or Naruto wouldn't kill anyone for this reason while someone like the 2nd hokage would do it.

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... if it meant seeing Rin again.
I guess summoning Rin with Edo Tensei would be enough to change Obito's mind, but i don't see anyone doing that, unless Kabuto changes sides after he learned his lesson from Itachi. If Kabuto somehow knew who is Tobi then having Rin could be his fail-safe in case Tobi tried to kill him and everything else failed.
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Old 2013-02-11, 19:12   Link #153
james0246
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So what you're saying is, your definition of "bad person" is "a person who does bad things" whereas mine is not.
Yes. And, on a meta level, it is anyone that disagrees with Naruto or opposes him.
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Old 2013-02-11, 19:54   Link #154
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I gues you could call me one of those Uchiha "haters". Tobirama had good cause to not trust the Uchiha, after what Madara did. But yet he placed them in a position of power He made them into the military police, basically put them in charge of the safety of the village. I know Kishimoto is tryin to make it out like they were "segregated" but segregation in the USA involved blacks being powerless, not heading the police force.
The Uchiha still rationalizing that they are somehow the victims is just laughable. Wanting to revolt just because they didn't get good real estate IS a good reason to be put down by Itachi.
Tobirama gave them a chance to regain the village's trust and they blew it. So what if they were suspected for the 9 tails' attack? An Uchiha WAS responsible for it. They should have just swallowed their pride and slowly regain the village's trust instead of plotting a revolt and confirming Tobirama's sterotypes of them.
After reading this chapter I'm glad Itachi did what he did. The clan was hopeless from the start.
Last I checked, he put them in a so called position of power because he was fearful of their mental condition making them more powerful + crazy and wanted to keep them in check. He was trying to use their condition soley for the benefit of the village, nothing more. That's his opinion on the Clan, he saw them as emofied and hopeless and doesn't regard their welfare unlike his brother Harishima.
Oh and speaking of powerless, they were, they had no Uchiha clan member involved/representation in the governing of Konoha's affairs, hence they had no voice or input into the runninngs of konoha (a village they had a hand in forming). That's what the Military Police was for, remember? They didn't revolt to get real estate, they just wanted the village elders to hear them out.
And with regards to the nine-tails attack, keyword: suspected, the clan didn't get a fair trail/hearing, they knew they were already being prejudiced by the village elders. This was due to the mistrust already planted by Tobirama and later on fueled by the false accusations of the 9-tails attack which led to Danzo's massacre order to gain their eyes for his nefarious ends.

so I'm guessing your'e okay with mass murder when one clan member does something that his clan wasn't remotely responsible for but since they're from the same clan, it's all the same to you: peter pay's for paul paul pay's for all

I'm sure if Harishima would've reigned a little longer, the Uchiha might've actually gotten proper representation, learn to trust the Senju clan more, close old wounds and actually got along. Why else would Harishima try to call out his brother on bad-talking the clan. After all, it's this same evil clan that outsed their own maniac leader Madara for this guy.

Tobirama did what he did because he lived through those war-torn era battling with the Uchiha Clan back & forth and still didn't trust them, the agreement was made between Madara and Harishima (I'm sure Tobirama didn't like it since he still sees them as oil & water). Which is why he seems prejudiced to me and I can also see where Danzo got this ideal of the village stability over others, it was from him.

If you wanna call yourself a bigoted hater that's fine by me but think before you actually post and don't get blinded by the haterade
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Old 2013-02-11, 21:11   Link #155
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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
[...]
The Uchiha still rationalizing that they are somehow the victims is just laughable. Wanting to revolt just because they didn't get good real estate IS a good reason to be put down by Itachi. [...]
You're not putting things in proper perspective at all : /

The two most powerful clans in the ninja world eventually made peace and created a village together, yet the Senju ended up holding the top-tier positions in the government. Despite being a position of authority, the police force's power was relatively limited and kept the Uchiha clan from participating in the top-level governing the affairs of the village, which they felt entitled to considering they were a founding clan of Konoha. This was one of the major causes for the gradual resentment brewing between them; they did not plot to overthrow the village because they resided on undesirable real estate.

Personally, I don't completely condemn Tobirama for his choices, yet I don't believe they were the best possible. On the other hand, the author seems to be sending obvious hints to us that Tobirama was wrong, especially considering his resentful, prejiduced attitude towards the Uchiha, and Hashirama's passionate disaproval.
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Old 2013-02-11, 21:35   Link #156
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By james0246's definition since Naruto changed them they are now good.
Wait. When was Itachi "changed" by Naruto?
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Old 2013-02-11, 22:40   Link #157
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Originally Posted by Captain Commando View Post
The two most powerful clans in the ninja world eventually made peace and created a village together, yet the Senju ended up holding the top-tier positions in the government. Despite being a position of authority, the police force's power was relatively limited and kept the Uchiha clan from participating in the top-level governing the affairs of the village, which they felt entitled to considering they were a founding clan of Konoha. This was one of the major causes for the gradual resentment brewing between them; they did not plot to overthrow the village because they resided on undesirable real estate.
exactly. itachi was a double agent, meaning that the uchiha needed him as a spy too. meaning that the konoha anbu and root were doing things and deciding things that the uchiha were unaware of. so basically the top tier of konoha from the hokages down throughout the anbu ranks were all operating without much, if any, knowledge and opinion from the uchiha who were supposed to be equals with the senju and lead the village together. the uchiha were screwed

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Wait. When was Itachi "changed" by Naruto?
i dont think he was. if anything, he has changed naruto into a better leader
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Old 2013-02-12, 00:26   Link #158
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Last I checked, he put them in a so called position of power because he was fearful of their mental condition making them more powerful + crazy and wanted to keep them in check. He was trying to use their condition soley for the benefit of the village, nothing more. That's his opinion on the Clan, he saw them as emofied and hopeless and doesn't regard their welfare unlike his brother Harishima.
Oh and speaking of powerless, they were, they had no Uchiha clan member involved/representation in the governing of Konoha's affairs, hence they had no voice or input into the runninngs of konoha (a village they had a hand in forming). That's what the Military Police was for, remember? They didn't revolt to get real estate, they just wanted the village elders to hear them out.
He was fearful of their mental conditions and still put them in a position of power. He was hopeful that they would curb their instincts. They proved him wrong.
You're also assuming that the village runs on a representative government; it doesn't. From what we have seen it is a dictatorship. The elders advise the kage but the kage has the last say. Or the dynamos do. So all your talk about "having a say" is rubbish.
I said real estate because the only indication that they were segregated was that they were on the outskirts of town.

Quote:
And with regards to the nine-tails attack, keyword: suspected, the clan didn't get a fair trail/hearing, they knew they were already being prejudiced by the village elders. This was due to the mistrust already planted by Tobirama and later on fueled by the false accusations of the 9-tails attack which led to Danzo's massacre order to gain their eyes for his nefarious ends.
There was a healthy amount of prejudice against the Uchiha because their leader already tried to revolt. And the 9 tails attack WAS done by an Uchiha. As far as I can tell, the Uchiha continued as the military police and not in a concentration camp. Ask what if they got some dirty looks. They should be glad that's all they get. You act like they were all put in jail without trial or something. That just isn't the case. If anything they are the jailers in a very literal sense.


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so I'm guessing your'e okay with mass murder when one clan member does something that his clan wasn't remotely responsible for but since they're from the same clan, it's all the same to you: peter pay's for paul paul pay's for all
When said clan repeatedly threatens the well being of other then yes, I'm fine with it. You act like the Uchiha weren't planning yet another revolt. News flash they totally were and it would have dragged the rest of village down with them.


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I'm sure if Harishima would've reigned a little longer, the Uchiha might've actually gotten proper representation....
Ummm what representation? It is a feudal system or a dictatorship. None of which have representation. Stop making things up.

Quote:
Tobirama did what he did because he lived through those war-torn era battling with the Uchiha Clan back & forth and still didn't trust them, the agreement was made between Madara and Harishima (I'm sure Tobirama didn't like it since he still sees them as oil & water).
That was one long sentence. Why would Tobirama trust the Uchiha? They have not given him any reason to. And while he may have been prejudiced against him he still gave them the power to arrest other ninja. How was that a bad deal for the Uchiha?

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If you wanna call yourself a bigoted hater that's fine by me but think before you actually post and don't get blinded by the haterade
Again, the Uhiha were hardly mistreated. Kishimoto's definition of segregation is hardly the same as the Americans' (or Nazi Germany) definition. The Uchiha had their own compounds and the power to arrest and detain people. Think about that for a moment and tell they were powerless. And yet they still wanted more prestige and were willing to start a civil war to get it. That's just plain greedy, especially considering the trust Tobirama placed on them.

You base your arguement on what again? Democracy? Something that doesn't exist in this universe. Even the kages are selected by the Dynamos.
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Old 2013-02-12, 01:27   Link #159
El_Negro
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He was fearful of their mental conditions and still put them in a position of power. He was hopeful that they would curb their instincts. They proved him wrong.
You're also assuming that the village runs on a representative government; it doesn't. From what we have seen it is a dictatorship. The elders advise the kage but the kage has the last say. Or the dynamos do. So all your talk about "having a say" is rubbish.
I said real estate because the only indication that they were segregated was that they were on the outskirts of town.
Um yeah it so I guess they don't need the friggin votes of respectable Jounin & Elders from the village to nominate a Hokage right? the Daiymo agrees with the elders and jounin's nomination. After that the village pretty much is governed by said elders and the selected hokage . So you tell me where the dictatorship lies? Since dictatorship means sole role by one person only having a say everyone else's decision doesn't matter. If it was a dictatorship Danzo would've taken over by now and wouldn't need Elders/Jounin and the Daiymo's blessing to run the village.


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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
There was a healthy amount of prejudice against the Uchiha because their leader already tried to revolt. And the 9 tails attack WAS done by an Uchiha. As far as I can tell, the Uchiha continued as the military police and not in a concentration camp. Ask what if they got some dirty looks. They should be glad that's all they get. You act like they were all put in jail without trial or something. That just isn't the case. If anything they are the jailers in a very literal sense.
I'm kinda glad you brought that up because Orochimaru mentioned the same thing, even though Tobirama gave them the Military Police, it was position where they were looked at bitterly (even in the real world, no one likes the cops or they are the least favored) so in a way Tobirama set them up for fall banking on the fact that their own downfall would be their mental instability.

Plus, the village already had ANBU Black Ops/ANBU Root Division who were alot higher status & rank, the Military police looked like Mall cops compared to them so they still weren't on good standing.




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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
When said clan repeatedly threatens the well being of other then yes, I'm fine with it. You act like the Uchiha weren't planning yet another revolt. News flash they totally were and it would have dragged the rest of village down with them.
We don't know how their coup de tat would've gone done, quietly or otherwise and if it would've destroyed the village then the elders could've punish the ones responsible not the innocents, it because of this Sasuke feels justified in returning kind. After all there were children and civilian who were not involved in the plot.
Hell, Itachi even admitted to Sasuke that this whole situation could've been handled better but he messed up by doing things on his own and with little time on his hands.




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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
Ummm what representation? It is a feudal system or a dictatorship. None of which have representation. Stop making things up.
Nothing making things up, if it were a dictatorship/feudal system they wouldn't have the need for Jounin and Elder nomination as well.


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Originally Posted by gibits View Post
That was one long sentence. Why would Tobirama trust the Uchiha? They have not given him any reason to. And while he may have been prejudiced against him he still gave them the power to arrest other ninja. How was that a bad deal for the Uchiha?


Again, the Uhiha were hardly mistreated. Kishimoto's definition of segregation is hardly the same as the Americans' (or Nazi Germany) definition. The Uchiha had their own compounds and the power to arrest and detain people. Think about that for a moment and tell they were powerless. And yet they still wanted more prestige and were willing to start a civil war to get it. That's just plain greedy, especially considering the trust Tobirama placed on them.

You base your arguement on what again? Democracy? Something that doesn't exist in this universe. Even the kages are selected by the Dynamos.
Tobirama set them up for a fall, he knew they were not to be trifled with and try to make it a win-win, which in essence was primarily for the village and the elders gain. And you keep bringing this dictatorship argument up, the Daiymo fund the village efforts and the village secures the Daimyo's, it a hand in hand relationship and if it were a Dictatorship, why the hell would there be Jounins/Chounins and other respectable ninja involved in the election process/nomination of a Hokage?

P.S. Tobirama didn't trust them to begin with so what "trust" Tobirama placed on them are u talking bout?

Last edited by El_Negro; 2013-02-12 at 01:51.
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Old 2013-02-12, 01:43   Link #160
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It's Daimyo, not Dynamo.
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