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Old 2013-04-13, 01:33   Link #81
Key Board
Donut
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
it's based on the Lesser Goetia and there were 72 devils
You are probably thinking of suikoden with 108 xd

Louie's father was a devil outside the Solomon's 72 devils.
Not all majin/devils were Solomons

In Evelyn's group for instance, only Paimon was certainly one of Solomon's

Though Rashena said that she was one of the angels that sided with Lucifer(or what passes as Lucifer) and became fallen.

..
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Old 2013-04-13, 01:41   Link #82
Hemisphere
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Join Date: May 2006
Location: 大陸の片隅
Oh god, you're right. 72, not 108. I stand corrected; my humblest apologies, and thank you so much for pointing this out.

I recall one of the Majins who appeared in VERITA, Paimon, address Louie as their potential leader-successor because of his father. I recall that much, but I didn't remember if it was because his father was one of Solomon's 72, or if it was just because his father was just that strong - this was probably where my misinterpretation of Louie's father being one of Solomon's came from. From rechecking some simple information from VERITA, it turns out that that was because they were all part of Buleard's 10 (or how many they actually were; I forgot) Majins; I misremembered the information as Solomon's, and forgot that they were Buleard's.

Again, thank you very much for the correction.

Rashena was my favorite Majin in VERITA; too bad she canonically dies, but at least she's together forever (in some semblance) with Celica, since he still has "his wings" in Ikusa Megami 2 (again, I might be mistaken here).
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Old 2013-04-13, 01:56   Link #83
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You are correct

His father was part of their gang. His order number was 3, but I'm not sure if this refers to summoning order or order of strength.

Zahanyu(sp?) Order number 1 of the group, wanted Louie to become a demon king and create a country for their kind. But in the True History route, Louie didn't agree, obviously.
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:19   Link #84
Hemisphere
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On that note, I've actually been wishing for something like Madou Koukaku...only you're playing as a Majin. Essentially something like Meishoku no Reiki all over again, but with less emphasis on "MWAHAHAHA I AM SO POWERFUL AND BADASS I AM GOING TO SUBJUGATE THESE LANDS AND TAKE THE WOMEN BY FORCE" and more on practicality (the word/s escape me at the moment). By practicality, I mean something more along the lines of survival and etching out more territories for political gain (as well as for making the surrounding nations squirm uncomfortably more and more). It doesn't even have to be dark and edgy, but with a fair note of seriousness and tension. Something like Genrin 2, only with a bit more contemporary focus on politics and cloak-and-dagger diplomacies and exchanges.

That was also the reason why I wanted having a ラウマカール as a heroine. Sort of like how Lily was to Maou Emilio (Sylphine end is best end), only instead of being subservient, she would test the lead on every turn and judge him harshly based on his merits.

It'd be something like a cross between Genrin no Kishogun 2 meets Meishoku no Reiki meets Himegari, I guess...

I wonder if Eushully's going to introduce more "secret" Majins in this title, or reveal more secrets tied to the Dir Lyfna lore through the secret dungeons? Like how Tiamat was to Himegari, Asmodeus was to Kamidori, Haishera's origin was to VERITA (technically you fight the Goddess of Light in the very bottom of THAT dungeon in VERITA, but I forgot her name and since she divulges a secret related to Haishera's origin I used it as a placeholder instead), Haagenti was to Aterial...
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:26   Link #85
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hagure majin/wandering devils seem to be a stable in Eushully games

Ratenil has been missing since Verita, though.

but yes, I think we need a Genrin 3 game
It doesn't even need Louie to be the main character again. He has a huge family.

I'm interested in this game, though. Just, not very enthusiastic about the combat system.
I think Eushully should stick with turn based.
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Old 2013-04-13, 03:46   Link #86
Hemisphere
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Yeah, wandering Majins are a staple, along with the sealed Majins/Gods/Goddesses in secret dungeons. You're right though; Rateenil's been MIA ever since VERITA. I'm pretty sure other wandering Majins have gone MIA as well; to be fair though, I don't think it would have made sense to include them in their latest games. Kamidori only has human leads; they wouldn't last seconds against the wandering Majins that Celica and company run into (but then this argument crumbles under the consideration that they fight the clusterfuck of angels at the bottom of the mine, which was supposedly Asmodeus' counterbalance (?)). In Aterial's case, this was the pre-Origin, so they definitely wouldn't have made appearances yet.

For some reason, I imagined something along the likes of the wandering Majins making their appearance in this game by suddenly butting in during a campaign, kicking the asses of both sides engaged in combat, then leaving as casually as they came in, with the player going "WTF was that" at the end...that would be hilarious.

I'm interested in this game as well; it's just that, maybe it's just me, but we've had three straight games where you play as a human, and it's kind of...generic? Words escape me at the moment, but considering Eushully's previous titles, where the lead characters were; the world's most hunted-down human in a Goddess' body (Celica); a Majin of some sort (Ignaat, Emilio); a Majin trying to find balance between his demon and human heritage (Louie); playing as humans just come off as...moot. Not to mention that they've only had like, two titles (pre-Kamidori) where you played as a human (Tayu Uta, the Kamidori precursor; and Kuutei Senki), and both weren't as interesting compared to the previous ones. It's not that I'm looking for some dark, juvenile, power fantasy fulfillment; it's just that those leads, in comparison to human ones, had way more things going for them overall.

And yes, we definitely need a Genrin 3. Considering that Louie is still probably off on his hunt for the method to revive Eleena together with his retainers...
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Old 2013-04-13, 04:04   Link #87
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well.. that's probably because normal humans usually don't have any grand schemes and thus their ability to affect the surroundings are on a less epic scale than say... a demon lord, or an emperor, or a god slayer

if you are one of the later on the other hand, you will be dragged into huge events, whether you like it or not

On another note, the goddess that you mentioned earlier is supposed to be Elyua. Goddess of Time. She's supposedly artificial, and Haishera is modeled after her? Kinda like how the madou koukaku are based on lunar goddesses?

Not so sure on this myself.

IIRC, based on Zero, it was shown that Haishera was just some kind of blob that just kept eating everything until she gained a human form.
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Old 2013-04-13, 04:28   Link #88
Hemisphere
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Right, the Goddess of Time. Thanks for that correction once again. I feel like I should read up on the Ikusa Megami wiki; there are way too many holes in what I remember.

It's also because of their very natures. Celica is an example of a tragic greek hero archetype in that his desire ends up causing him to lose the very things he held precious to him, and whatever help he gives is balanced out by the very destruction he unwittingly causes in the first place; Louie's conflict over his mixed heritage in a world where humans hold unquestionable disgust and hatred for demons; Ignaat's shrouded in mystery roots as he was once human but got lost in his search for power; Emilio's desire to regain his Maou power and dignity even as he struggles with trying to find his foothold. I found those to be more compelling characters than just humans doing human things, and that's not including the scope of the stories they're involved with. This is all subjective personal taste, of course, and opinions may vary.

I remember that Haishera was remodeled by humans, but sadly I don't remember much from before that...

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-04-16, 04:44   Link #89
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My apologies if this comes off as double-posting, but since there's no thread for this particular line of question and all the attention for Eushully's latest title is on this one, I figured I might as well ask.

For those who have played Kamidori/Aterial, does anyone remember if those two games added or mentioned any relevant information on the War of the Three Pantheons? I'm fairly sure Kamidori just barely touched upon it (via Melodiana and Elizathrein's dialogues for the most part which were very brief, as well as Asmodeus'), and Aterial only had the demon route + Atori "route" to barely touch on the elements that would later be implicated in the War of the Three Pantheons, but I'm certain that they didn't add or divulge much and all the information they mentioned were akin to just footnotes.

Please feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken, or add relevant information, because I'm somewhat convinced that Kamidori and Aterial didn't really add to info on that particular war. I hope Madou Koukaku doesn't do the same; I mean, it's got their machine puppets and it seems like a throwaway reference to the salvaged technology of humankind post-Pantheons war (which was discussed in ZERO at some length). But at the worst, it might just end up as Angelic Layer Eushully-style with very vague or little relevance to Dir Lyfna lore whatsoever.

Eushully...we need a game with the War of the Three Pantheons in full focus, and not something like Aterial.

Side-note: I find it amusing that whenever mankind's technology is uncovered in Eushully games, they're treated as some broken, awesome future tech; and then you remember that mankind, despite possessing that level of technology, lost the war.
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Old 2013-04-16, 09:39   Link #90
Flying Dagger
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Having played only kamidori and arterial: what is the War of the Three Pantheons?
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Old 2013-04-16, 09:49   Link #91
Hemisphere
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In a nutshell, it's the war that resulted after two worlds merged into being Dir Lyfna.

After man managed to create artificial gods and goddesses, they created a bridge into another world except that it resulted in both worlds slowly melding into one another (this should sound familiar by now). A war broke out afterwards, between the Old Pantheon (the gods we know), the New Pantheon (the gods of the world of sword and magic), and the Artificial Gods of man.

After the New Pantheon arose victorious, and the Old Pantheon were driven into hiding, they set about laying the foundations that would herald the current situation for what was to be Dir Lyfna. They barred humankind from gaining access to technology again, EVER, promptly sealed up any and all that were left from the great war, and expressly forbade their followers to come into contact with such things, and tasked their servants (like angels and such) to prevent humans from coming into contact, or advancing technology too far. To newcomers, this is the reason for Melodiana and Elizathrein's "duties", and why Eliza is so adamant about barring humans from technological progress - because the last time humans had access to such technology, it resulted in two worlds being screwed over and a great cataclysmic war erupting between various Gods and Men. This "memory" is still fresh in their minds, and this is why humans + technological progress (especially at a fast rate) is a bad, bad thing for them.
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Old 2013-04-16, 10:27   Link #92
Drkz
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What do you call a guy whose in a girl's body? A guy or a girl?
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Old 2013-04-16, 10:42   Link #93
Hemisphere
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A Celicasexual.

Boring slightly on-topic answer so as to not be mistaken for spamming: It depends on who's currently in control, as while Astraea's body is female, Celica's soul holds influence over it as long as he has mana reserves, enabling him to maintain his male form and not be consumed by the body's continual resistance against him.

Now what do you call the people who are obsessed with a guy in a girl's body?

A Sylphiliac.
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Old 2013-04-16, 18:08   Link #94
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From what I remember..

There was originally the world of humans (implied to be a super advanced version of our current world)
And there world of elves where magic flourished.
Each world had their own gods, but the ones in the human world were no longer powerful because humans have moved on to science.

These two worlds collided and the gods fought for control. I believe mankind created their own artificial gods and bio-weapons using science to fight all the other gods.

In the end, the gods of the Elven world won and since then, became the present gods, or the new pantheon as the poster above me eloquently put it.

The defeated gods went into hiding, became vassals to the new pantheon, or were sealed along with the artificial gods.
And the new pantheon is further divided into light and dark factions. There are also neutral independent factions, but those seem to be a minority.

Water Priestess (she's really a land god) that governs Celica's country is an example of a neutral independent god.

Remember when Melodiana said that she and Hannah did not worship the same god?
This is because Melodiana is an angel of the "Father". Think of him has the Eushully version of the Christian god.
While Hannah is a nun of Arkparis, the supreme god of light, IIRC. Think of him as the Eushully version of Zeus and ruler of the light faction of the new pantheon.

Astrea as mentioned before is also an old god. She's is probably the Eushully version of Athena/Minerva or even Astrea herself. Or maybe a fusion of all

And the final boss of Verita is the Eushully version of Lucifer
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Old 2013-04-17, 06:38   Link #95
Hemisphere
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On that note, Barouhart is the stupidest god of the New Pantheon out of them all. Thanks to his jackassery, he brought forth Celica (the well-feared and hated Godslayer who single-handedly destroyed his home village and the source of his followers) and Louie (who ended up conquering and uniting the entire area of Resperant) and guaranteed the demise of his influence and believers. Hell, Marsterria is the God of War among the New Pantheons, and even HE didn't mess up that badly, and he did learn his lesson (granted the first time around his believers wanted to bear and raise the child of the Godslayer, but hey) the second time around when it came to dealing with the Godslayer.

And why did he even ended up making his own downfalls in the first place? Gotta kill them Old God(desses)s and Demons, no matter the cost, obviously! Cheers Balhart, now enjoy your dead religion and infamy.

---

...I just realized that there might be continuity problems if you account the append disk's canonical status into question.

It's supposedly about Haishera commanding an army against Weisshart, but the last time Haishera led an army was when she was running amok with Astraea's body. This was during the end of ZERO's second generation, and up to the middle of its third generation, and lasted for roughly 50 years. Once Celica woke up and regained control of Astraea's body, Haishera promptly went off to train for her rematch with Celica, while the Godslayer went into cold sleep in the Omarl Mountains. Then, in ZERO's fourth generation, Celica promptly awakens after a 120-year sleep, is given a rough briefing and purification in the nearby Elf village where he meets and becomes Shamarl's bodyguard, and runs into Velroka Prada later on in their adventures.

And this is where the problem lies.

In her character profile page, Eida is supposedly Velroka's grandchild, so a lot of years would have already passed (after Celica and Velroka's meeting at least, considering how old she was when they first met) for this to happen, placing the events of Madou Koukaku several years after ZERO. But that would mean that Haishera was already turned into Celica's sword and partner, that they've already faced and defeated Eidos, meaning that Haishera would have had absolutely no reason, excuse nor justification to be able to gather an army and attack, much less leave Celica's side by her own will alone.

And if it was during the time when Haishera was off training and picking random fights, then not enough time would have passed between Celica and Velroka's first meeting (I remember this because an incident involving Abirus, that jackass, along with some Dark Elves took place) for Velroka to suddenly have had a grandchild.

Suddenly, this game's continuity is making no sense to me. If someone can help clear up mistakes or parts where I could have misinterpreted things, do post corrections, I very much welcome them. I'm not very confident with regards to how many years passed between ZERO's generations (I seriously need to replay it sometime soon), but I'm pretty certain those points still stand.

Slightly off-topic: For those who are curious, welcome to the world of Dir=Lyfna. Note that Raulbhach's continent is vast, and not even a majority of it has been covered. World primer can be found here.
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Old 2013-04-17, 13:06   Link #96
Drkz
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Whether or not they make append disc that is canon or not is another thing in its own. Its probably more certain to say they'll bring back characters from different games and reintroduces them in a funny manner.
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Old 2013-04-17, 13:59   Link #97
Flying Dagger
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Damn I have been missing out.
I had the urge to some time go back to the earlier Eushully games, but held back due to seemingly less refined gameplay.
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Old 2013-04-17, 19:04   Link #98
Hitenma
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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I think playing Genrin II, Zero and Verita is enough.
Genrin II is the oldest of the bunch but I find it one of the best game of Eushully.

BTW, of the games I've played I dislike Kuutei Senki the most, couldn't get used to that mechanics >_<
Haven't played Tayuuta yet, can someone give me a short review?
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Old 2013-04-17, 19:06   Link #99
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@ Hemisphere

if you notice Haishera's hair it's blue.
It's not her god slayer reddish hair
Yeah, just don't think too hard about it. It's like Lily and Emilio appearing in Verita.

Also there's an updated version of that Eushully world map that shows where Himegari takes place. It was in artbook, but I don't have it right now.

@ Hitemna

Tayuuta is rogue-like dungeon crawler. Meaning if you die you lose EVERYTHING you have on you.

There's this town built on top of a mine, and there's a secret to this mine. Kinda like Kamidori if you think about it.
The main character ends up getting married to either his first childhood friend or his second, because of some tradition or ritual. I forgot.
Your teacher turns out to be a goddess of light in charge of protecting the seal in the mine, and several towns people you meet turn out to be her apostles. It goes without saying that your party diving deeper in to the mine, makes her job harder.
Expect your typical Eushully plot staples.
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Old 2013-04-18, 00:10   Link #100
Hemisphere
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@Drkz: The thing is, appends are sometimes canon. Genrin 2's append was canon (the encounter between Princess General Ekria and the Godslayer Celica), one of VERITA's was canon (since it was the expansion of the encounter between Ekria and Celica, as well as Celica facing Saimof).

Some appends were for silliness, but they had warnings beforehand; like ZERO's append where all the characters were brought back for silly reasons, they goof around before fighting Celica, and it all culminated in two fights against the Eushully Four Kings Maids. Funny stuff.

Between the two, I don't know which one Madou Koukaku's is going to be, but it's definitely not going to be canon because it just doesn't make sense chronologically.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, whenever Eushully does a "dramatic, serious" append, it's usually linked to canon and makes sense - but this one won't, even if it comes off as serious.

@Flying Dagger: Play Genrin 2, ZERO and VERITA, like Hitenma mentioned. The gameplay might be dated but out of all the old titles (though calling VERITA old is a stretch), Genrin 2 and ZERO are easily playable. The worldbuilding, pacing and writing in those two titles are by far the best out of all Eushully's titles.

Genrin 1 is pretty much a build-up for Genrin 2; all you need to know is that Louie struggles with finding balance between his human and demon heritage until he meets Eleena, he took over a bunch of areas, won over the humans and demons that you later see at the start of Genrin 2, and killed Barouhart's Yuusha (who killed his father in the first place).

I'd recommend others like Meishoku no Reiki and Himegari (Sylphinne!) too, but it depends on how willing you are to put worldbuilding before less-refined gameplay.

Just expect some disappointment come VERITA.

@Hitenma: Tayuuta's a roguelike dungeon crawler RPG, like Key Board mentioned. The writing's more lighthearted, cheery and shounen-ish in its tone compared to, say, Meishoku no Reiki, Genrin 2, ZERO, but I still found it pretty fun (the spear paladin was my favorite). It still employs the usual Eushully tropes, though, so there's some fun to be had from it.

@Key Board: Yeah, like I mentioned, this means that it's post-ZERO fourth generation, so Haishera can't be running around challenging people to fights (because Celica's going to be mad). Plus Rekshumi is there.

If it's going to be a silly append like the one for ZERO, I'll just dismiss it yeah. But I really hope they don't try to pass it off as canon, because it messes around too much with ZERO canon, and I love ZERO's canonity way too much.

I didn't know they updated Raulbhach's map! I've been dying to know where Himegari's events took place there. Slightly offtopic, but I remember a discussion a friend and I had back then; "what would happen if Ignaat and Maou Emilio met each other?" "Silent glares, then fistbump." Hahaha.

I like to think of Tayuuta as the Kamidori beta. It has the same concept and same cheery, lighthearted writing - only, I found Tayuuta's worldbuilding with regards to Dir=Lyfna more interesting than Kamidori's and its footnotes.
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