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Old 2012-04-12, 13:07   Link #1801
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
You should ignore all and everyone who talks about a VN when the topic is anime.
'that anime is bad, because the VN was so much better', 'that anime should have followed the VN more closely', 'that anime is not even the same genre as the VN' ect.
None of this matters to someone who did not read, or plans to ever read the VN in the first place.
So just ignore.

Anime stands on it's own.
Better not to know where it comes from. Knowing the source material of something seems to lead people to complain a lot and not enjoy the show. If this forum is anything to go by...
While you can easily ignore some complaints of the comparisons if you don't know the original work, however i disagree that knowing it's source will eventually leads to not enjoying the show. As long as the adaption was somewhat decent (unfortunately the majority of them are not that good), i can appreciate the anime a little more due to knowing what the direction/route the anime has choosen and what was left out.
Let's not forget about that some people who want to check out the original source after watching the anime. A pretty recent example would be Steins;Gate
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Old 2012-04-12, 13:48   Link #1802
ahelo
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Originally Posted by MisaoFan View Post
You could look in my latest posts to see that I planned to watch and you will understand my reasons.


Whether you plan to watch it or read a few summaries, you can't just go recommending something to other people that you yourself haven't experienced. How sure are you that you'll like it anyway?

The definition of a recommendation is that you yourself as a person has experienced it and you would love for other people to experience what you have. As a blogger, my standpoint is that when I write something, I actually know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty ticked off with people who say things they have no knowledge of, kinda like what you're doing.

Meh whatever. Going back to topic. . . I never really got into Shakugan no Shana or Zero no Tsukaima but then that really still doesn't count since they do have a fair share of people who hate it.

Oh yeah, I never really found Seto no Hanayome that funny but I'm definitely alone in that statement.
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Old 2012-04-12, 13:59   Link #1803
MisaoFan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahelo View Post


Whether you plan to watch it or read a few summaries, you can't just go recommending something to other people that you yourself haven't experienced. How sure are you that you'll like it anyway?

The definition of a recommendation is that you yourself as a person has experienced it and you would love for other people to experience what you have. As a blogger, my standpoint is that when I write something, I actually know what I'm talking about. I'm pretty ticked off with people who say things they have no knowledge of, kinda like what you're doing.
I know what "recommandation" is, but I decide to create a suggestion thread of how I planned to watch Chaos;Head when I have time.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:17   Link #1804
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
You should ignore all and everyone who talks about a VN when the topic is anime.
'that anime is bad, because the VN was so much better', 'that anime should have followed the VN more closely', 'that anime is not even the same genre as the VN' ect.
None of this matters to someone who did not read, or plans to ever read the VN in the first place.
So just ignore.

Anime stands on it's own.
Better not to know where it comes from. Knowing the source material of something seems to lead people to complain a lot and not enjoy the show. If this forum is anything to go by...
A large reason for the existence of the anime is to entice viewers into buying the source material (as well as the other products, CDs, DVDs, figures, etc). So adapting an anime will is always going to be a bit of the equation in deciding whether it is good or not.

I agree an anime adaptation *should* be able to stand on its own merits -- but its like, say, the Downey/Law version of Sherlock Holmes. Great entertaining movies but a substantial "re-envisioning" of the characters from the original books. (of which the Reginald Owen BBC version is probably closer to).

Gregory Peck's Moby Dick is a fantastic movie... but its like a brief summary of some highlights of the book, grinding the characters down to almost sound-bite archetypes.

Jackson's LOTR, as expansive as it is and good, stands on its own quite well... yet managed to adapt the material and leave the book fans relatively happy.

OTOH, the movie Dune is a massive trainwreck both in adaptation and in a standalone analysis, but so massive a trainwreck it should be seen anyway.

All of this applies to anime as well... its an entertainment medium - one that often uses source material. Producers often find that adapting well is a Good Thing because its the source fans that generate the buzz.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:25   Link #1805
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That's ok, if it's that way around, Vexx.
But all I read around here, is people dissing anime series based on their VN experience. Which is just meaningless and bad advice, if someone is going to watch the anime first.

If watching the anime then sparks interest in the source, all the better. But a comparison to source is not a valid argument when recommending anime.
Unless of course both parties have read the source and only one has watched the anime. In that case, sure include it.

All of your examples are of popular stories, that almost anyone knows at least something about. But in case you get the odd person, who really has no idea what Moby Dick, or LoTR is and wants to watch a movie. Then this person couldn't care less about how true the movie is to it's book origin. 'Is it a good movie?', is what s/he'd be asking.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:32   Link #1806
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
That's ok, if it's that way around, Vexx.
But all I read around here, is people dissing anime series based on their VN experience. Which is just meaningless and bad advice, if someone is going to watch the anime first.

If watching the anime then sparks interest in the source, all the better. But a comparison to source is not a valid argument when recommending anime.
Unless of course both parties have read the source and only one has watched the anime. In that case, sure include it.
Some complainst are valid though. A good adaptation seems to be more recommended than a bad one.
Like many people won't recommend you watching the Tsukihime anime, not just because it differs from the source but for reasons why certain elements/ parts of the story did not make sense or were not even explained in the anime at all.
Animes tend to cut away some things from it source due to time constraints (trying to fit a VN that needs 40+ hours to read in 1 cour of anime episodes), but i would call it a bad adaptation if the removed material was a relevant part of understanding the story.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:36   Link #1807
Dhomochevsky
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In that case, you can just mark it off as a bad anime on itself.
Why does it matter, if the source did it better? That's not going to help the poor soul who has to watch the anime.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:38   Link #1808
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Long ago, before I even know what "Type Moon" meant, I actually liked Tsukihime animu simpy for offering a protagonist with an interesting ability, and for the overall atmosphere.

I grew "smarter" later on though.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:42   Link #1809
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
In that case, you can just mark it off as a bad anime on itself.
Why does it matter, if the source did it better? That's not going to help the poor soul who has to watch the anime.
It might deter people who did not know the source from watching an anime that is going to be a trainwreck.

Also as for this comment again

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
You should ignore all and everyone who talks about a VN when the topic is anime.
'that anime is bad, because the VN was so much better', 'that anime should have followed the VN more closely', 'that anime is not even the same genre as the VN' ect.
None of this matters to someone who did not read, or plans to ever read the VN in the first place.
So just ignore.
How many animes have you seen that did not follow it's source at all and have become a succes? The main target of most adaptations is to satisfy the existing fanbase and then to get more people interested. If you are going to lose your primairy audience to get more people from your secundary audience, then you are doing something wrong.
I am not saying that you have to keep everything 100% faithfull, but you are making it sound as if those 2 different audiences don't matter at all

Also some animes and OAV's don't stand alone at all, like Cromarty high, Sora no Kiseki, School Rumble san gakki, the later Negima oav's.
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:50   Link #1810
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
That's ok, if it's that way around, Vexx.
But all I read around here, is people dissing anime series based on their VN experience. Which is just meaningless and bad advice, if someone is going to watch the anime first.

If watching the anime then sparks interest in the source, all the better. But a comparison to source is not a valid argument when recommending anime.
Unless of course both parties have read the source and only one has watched the anime. In that case, sure include it.

All of your examples are of popular stories, that almost anyone knows at least something about. But in case you get the odd person, who really has no idea what Moby Dick, or LoTR is and wants to watch a movie. Then this person couldn't care less about how true the movie is to it's book origin. 'Is it a good movie?', is what s/he'd be asking.
You're right, of course, because what people are often complaining about is that the anime chooses a route that wasn't their favorite... or the anime tries to integrate routes that were never meant to be integrated The average anime writer just doesn't often do a great job at adapting material that way (it often shows even if considering the anime as a stand-alone).

That's the dilemma of using a VN for source.... an anime is a one-route presentation. The omnibus anime (like Amagami) or the hybrids (like YnS) are attempts to get around the fact that it is difficult to adapt these things. Its one reason I've grown to prefer Light Novel adaptations because then its just a matter of adapting "one reality".

The example of Canvas 2 shows some of the difficulty and creativity in trying to create a decent story that at least pays homage to the VN. The material was converted to a triangle and related to the protagonist's career/life choices. The other women were shifted to "people with problems to be solved". It was made clear early that this was the story line. The series generated a lot of passion and angst ... but few of the fans seemed to be upset with the series itself (outside of some debate over whether there was enough explanation of WHY the hero chose as he did).
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Old 2012-04-12, 14:57   Link #1811
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
You're right, of course, because what people are often complaining about is that the anime chooses a route that wasn't their favorite... or the anime tries to integrate routes that were never meant to be integrated The average anime writer just doesn't often do a great job at adapting material that way (it often shows even if considering the anime as a stand-alone).

That's the dilemma of using a VN for source.... an anime is a one-route presentation. The omnibus anime (like Amagami) or the hybrids (like YnS) are attempts to get around the fact that it is difficult to adapt these things. Its one reason I've grown to prefer Light Novel adaptations because then its just a matter of adapting "one reality".

The example of Canvas 2 shows some of the difficulty and creativity in trying to create a decent story that at least pays homage to the VN. The material was converted to a triangle and related to the protagonist's career/life choices. The other women were shifted to "people with problems to be solved". It was made clear early that this was the story line. The series generated a lot of passion and angst ... but few of the fans seemed to be upset with the series itself (outside of some debate over whether there was enough explanation of WHY the hero chose as he did).
People complaining about their favorite romance pairing not winning at the end is not exclusive for VN adaptations though. It happens in pretty much every romance with more than 1 heroine, like Kimi iru no machi, True Tears or some people weren't even satisfied with a Ryuuji x Taiga end in ToraDora.
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Old 2012-04-12, 15:25   Link #1812
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyl View Post
... some people weren't even satisfied with a Ryuuji x Taiga end in ToraDora.
Yeah, that period had me laughing a lot... it was on the order of "But I want Juliet to go with Mercutio!!!!!!" Even in a stand alone context (ignoring the books) ... .it meant those faction 'shippers had to completely ignore the opening sequence of the first episode and the title of the series as well as a truckload of plot events.

I mean... I can understand it (I'm one of those that thinks the plot had to be trainwrecked in the manga Love Hina to avoid a Keitaro-Motoko ending) but I just find the extremes some "fans" go to alarming
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Old 2012-04-12, 15:53   Link #1813
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dhomochevsky View Post
Why does it matter, if the source did it better? That's not going to help the poor soul who has wants to watch the anime.
I generally take this perspective as well. I often avoid participating in series discusssions here when the anime has been adapted from a popular manga or VN. Too often there will be scads of comments from manga readers about how poor the adaptation was even for shows that I've found satisfying to watch. The Claymore discussion was rife with this sort of thing; the current thread for Zetman has started off that way as well. (I can usually tell when this will be the case if there is page after page of discussion for a series before the first episode is aired.)

I understand the motivation of a publisher to give its print publications a boost by underwriting an anime adaptation, but that's really irrelevant to me. What I do care about is whether I enjoy the anime, and that usually doesn't require having any prior knowledge of the source material.

[ot]I think my favorite adaptations of the Sherlock Holmes stories are the ones made for the BBC/PBS with Jeremy Brett. The Dune movie is a self-indulgent directorial mess (David Lynch at his worst), but the made-for-TV miniseries version is actually pretty decent and much more faithful to the original novel.[/ot]
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:15   Link #1814
Akito Kinomoto
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I get the feeling some people think faithfulness to the source material is an inherently good thing. Has it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps, just perhaps, the reason an anime adaptation of a Visual Novel or Light novel or manga or whatever sucks is because the source material itself actually sucks? In such a case, diverging from the source material might actually do more good than harm.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that each person's perception of the source material affects his or her expectations of an adaptation for the work. You think the adaptation is going to be made one way only for it to surprise you; whether your reaction is positive or negative, well, that's up to each person.

Just my two cents...
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:22   Link #1815
hyl
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
I get the feeling some people think faithfulness to the source material is an inherently good thing. Has it ever occurred to anyone that perhaps, just perhaps, the reason an anime adaptation of a Visual Novel or Light novel or manga or whatever sucks is because the source material itself actually sucks? In such a case, diverging from the source material might actually do more good than harm.

I think it's also important to keep in mind that each person's perception of the source material affects his or her expectations of an adaptation for the work. You think the adaptation is going to be made one way only for it to surprise you; whether your reaction is positive or negative, well, that's up to each person.

Just my two cents...
If the source material was not somewhat promising, then i seriously doubt that companies would invest a large sum of money to produce animes from them. That's why i still haven't seen some of my favorite VN's adapted and i don't think that they ever will be.
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:33   Link #1816
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
If the source material was not somewhat promising, then i seriously doubt that companies would invest a large sum of money to produce them. That's why i still haven't seen some of my favorite VN's adapted and i don't think that they ever will be.
That depends on what you mean by promising. If you mean "has a good chance to produce decent sales" then I can see how something won't be adapted if it doesn't have a good chance of making decent sales. If you mean "it sucks so it shouldn't be adapted"...well I don't know how many people say that a favorite of his or hers sucks. At any rate, a story isn't free from being of bad quality just because it's the source material.
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:36   Link #1817
hyl
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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
That depends on what you mean by promising. If you mean "has a chance to produce decent sales" then I can see how something won't be adapted. If you mean "it sucks so it shouldn't be adapted"...well I don't know how many people say that a favorite of his or hers sucks. At any rate, a story isn't free from being of bad quality just because it's the source material.
You did say "the reason an anime adaptation of a Visual Novel or Light novel or manga or whatever sucks is because the source material itself actually sucks". It does not make sense for me to waste valuable money and time on those kind of materials that sucks.

As for my favorites not being adapted, either i wasn't very clear or you misinterpreted what i posted: it's not that the actual story sucked but the stories are not always suited for anime (like for example being too dark)or they never had any promising decent amount of sales.
For the anime industry (much like every kind of industry), it's primarily about making money.
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:46   Link #1818
Akito Kinomoto
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Originally Posted by hyl View Post
You did say "the reason an anime adaptation of a Visual Novel or Light novel or manga or whatever sucks is because the source material itself actually sucks". It does not make sense for me to waste valuable money and time on those kind of materials that sucks.
Most of the studios making those adaptations are just looking to make quick money. How good the source material is, or lack thereof, is often irrelevant so long as it [the adaptation] can sell.

As you said, it's the primary goal of any industry to make money.
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Old 2012-04-12, 16:51   Link #1819
hyl
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Originally Posted by Akito_Kinomoto View Post
Most of the studios making those adaptations are just looking to make quick money. How good the source material is, or lack thereof, is often irrelevant so long as it [the adaptation] can sell.

As you said, it's the primary goal of any industry to make money.
And that's why i also said some bad ones won't sell. As for making quick money, the most obvious ones are the ones with moe appeal or huge amount of fanservice. But in most cases , the original work already had some of those elements in it.

Also can you think of many animes that are almost not related to their sources, that end up selling well? Like i have said it earlier, by not bringing some faithfullness to it's source you are likely going to lose a huge amount of people.
Do you really think that series like Persona 4, Fate/Zero and Horizon would have had that many DVD and blu-ray sales if it weren't for the already established fanbase?
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Old 2012-04-12, 17:20   Link #1820
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Any bishounen fanservice shows like Kuroshitsuji and 07-Ghost. I'm a guy so what do you expect from me?
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