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Old 2003-11-18, 10:07   Link #1
way2bord
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Angry RIAA - Legal Issues and Questions

We are all aware that fansubbing is illegal. Luckily for us, it is often overlooked.

However, the RIAA, continuing its reign of terror from Kazaa, now has lawsuits
pending for BitTorrent users. This raises the question - how long until
fansubbers/downloaders become targets as well?

http://www.slyck.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2276
"Is it possible...can it be possible...that even anime lovers be sued for sharing anime,
J-Pop, J-Rock, etc. MP3s at all?" BJ Maxter

Does anyone know the answer to this? I'd hate to be involved in a lawsuit involving
thousands of dollars due to the lack of information.

http://www.boycottriaa.com/article/9051
"New Round of DMCA Letters, Comcast warns Bit Torrent, E-donkey users"
Information on the RIAA and their proceedings into Bit Torrent

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...highlight=riaa
Information from earlier in this forum.

As part of the fansubbing/anime watching, otaku culture rising in America, I was
wondering about your opinions on this subject. If you feel as I do, please share this
information with others and BOYCOTT the RIAA and the Music Industry it represents.

Let your voice be heard.
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Old 2003-11-18, 10:15   Link #2
NinjaServ
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RIAA is RECORDING Industry.....the RIAA and MPAA are after ppl that bootleg AMERICAN content, we would fall under international copyright laws, that would be a matter of the japanese companies pressing charges.
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Old 2003-11-18, 11:00   Link #3
Esperchld
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The answer is simple. Don't share illegal content on these services, Granted that accounts for almost all (I think I saw a legal file on there the other day) of the content on them. I have already stated that the MPAA and the RIAA will not care about your Japanese content. The companies in question (and there are a lot of them) would have to purchase the liscence in the USA to be able to go after you for sharing it.

Now if we could only get the RIAA to release GOOD music for a change, or lower the price of the CD (like they said they would in the begining).
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Old 2003-11-18, 12:24   Link #4
Shii
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Quote:
Originally Posted by way2bord
As part of the fansubbing/anime watching, otaku culture rising in America, I was wondering about your opinions on this subject.
Holy dangling modifier, Batman!
"Plummeting into the ocean at hundreds of miles per hour, the children watched the space shuttle's reentry eagerly."

Anyway, once I hear about crackdowns in Japan, then maybe I will be worried.
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Old 2003-11-18, 13:12   Link #5
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MPAA Motion Picture Association of America
RIAA Recording blah blah blah of America

Notice the pattern here?

The MPAA and the RIAA like any other buisness couldn't care less about products that aren't there. They probably enjoy it when you steal J-pop and anime and all that crap. Since the american way is to hurt and steal. The american capitalists are just trying to line their pockets with money. One day your capitalist model will fall upon it's self.
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Old 2003-11-18, 14:29   Link #6
naoko
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the likelihood of getting sued is determined by what sort of content you download/share on BT and other p2p programs. If you're seeding mp3s of the new Britney Spears album (i dunno if she even has a new album... i pay little attention) then you're more likely to get sued than if you seeded the new ms. john soda ep - simply because the RIAA only represents the 'big five' record labels and doesn't truck with independent or foreign (or independent foreign) labels...

with movies, if you're seeding/downloading something that's in us theaters right now - you may get a threatening letter from the mpaa. if it's japanese fansubs - even fansubs of series that are licensed and have been released in the us on dvd - the chances of being sued are low. I doubt ADV pulls much weight in the mpaa.
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Old 2003-11-18, 14:45   Link #7
method
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IIRC isn't Sony part of the RIAA which has a few Jpop artists on the other side of the ocean. Other than that we don't have too much too worry as long as most of the fansubbers keep following the fansubbers code. Oh yeah certain titles that are owned by the MPAA studios like the Cowboy Bebop movie, could land you trouble.
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Old 2003-11-18, 15:58   Link #8
way2bord
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Talking English?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
Holy dangling modifier, Batman!
"Plummeting into the ocean at hundreds of miles per hour, the children watched
the space shuttle's reentry eagerly."


Anyway, once I hear about crackdowns in Japan, then maybe I will be worried.
I'm an engineer - not an english buff. If I wanted to study liberal arts, I'd be posting
something along the lines of: would you like fries with that?


I know that the dl/ul of anime/manga/licensed japanese video-art is outside of the
RIAA's jurisdiction. But in terms of a slippery slope effect - America today, Japan
tomorrow kind of idea - do you guys think there's any sort of likelihood that anime
might become targeted?
(PS. Japan doesn't need to license their content in the US in order to prosecute.
Whoever said that was mistaken )
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Old 2003-11-18, 16:43   Link #9
Shii
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"Slippery slope" is a type of fallacy.
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Old 2003-11-18, 17:01   Link #10
ChibiDusk
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sue us all,
why dont you?

Everyone who owns a computer has downloaded an
illegal mp3 wether it be on purpose or by accident.

Some sites have them playing in the back, while others
are in freeware games [like ones made with rpg maker].

Its getting sick,
and its most likely their staff has dl mp3s before.
which makes the situation even sicker....
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Old 2003-11-19, 00:02   Link #11
Sukato
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I posted this in another thread but noticed it was relevant here as well and just as important, so please read:

To all those concerned about downloading anime, J-pop, or whatever:

Any case brought up by the RIAA/MPAA on this issue is usually going to be a Civil case, and not a Criminal case. That means there is a 0% that a person will go to jail, and that the issue at hand is not whether a person commited a crime but whether a person owes another person (company in this case) some money.

A Criminal case is something that is against the law, or rather "illegal." Examples would be such things as shoplifting and drunk driving to things as serious as murder.

A Civil case is something that is brought up before the courts to settle some issue that couldn't be settled by the people themselves. Examples of this would be such things as a bad divorce. If you get in a car accident and you disagree with the insurance company on the money they owe you that is a Civil case. If you break your friend's TV and for some odd reason you say that you shouldn't have to pay for it and they sue you, that is a Civil case. Edit: Was wrong about selling for profit..brain lapse or something, selling for profit is criminal /Edit. None of these are crimes, none of these are illegal..they just end up with one person ending up with money from the other, or nothing happening at all.

The big debate over the MPAA/RIAA isnt if such acts are illegal or not, its if filesharing is considered Copyright Infringement and warrants the companies the right to sue people for sharing online. In most cases so far and in an important federal appeals court case (The Ninth Circuit), it was ruled that all sorts of filesharing such as Kazaa are considered "sharing," since there is no profit involved and thus the MPAA/RIAA was pretty much told to go home.

Now, in the old days (or not so old) people could let their friend borrow a movie. This is definately not (and better never be) considered Copyright Infringement. Now, these days through the internet people can share with thousands of people online. MPAA/RIAA says that this is Copyright Infringement, but most judges and higher government officials say that they might as well be trying to sue the people for borrowing a book at the public library (after all the library lets thousands of people borrow books for free doesnt it?..and many have movies these days as well..).

In really basic, simple terms it comes down to this: For companies and the MPAA/RIAA, filesharing is just a way they might be able to sue money out of the populous. They dont care about the $20 they might lose if the person downloading a movie doesn't buy it (which it was actually shown through polls that many people who download a movie will often buy it if they like it even though they probably wouldn't have bought it if they didnt download it). They really only care about getting thousands of dollars per person by suing like crazy, simple as that.


Now if you've completely missed everything up until now because you usually only prefer short posts read this: For the Anime Community:

Most sorts of file sharing and all Copyright Infringement cases are never brought up by the U.S. Government. The only exception I can think of right now is if you are caught sharing something that is illegal such as child pornography.
It is up to the Company to file a law suit against an individual. That means that in order to get a letter from the MPAA/RIAA for downloading anime or j-pop music a Japanese Company, JAPANESE Company, that owns the certain copyrights has to decide that they want to track down a single person somewhere in the world that downloaded their anime/song and then for some reason decide they want to sue that person. Then, they bring this to the attention of the MPAA/RIAA.

Here's what happens at the MPAA/RIAA: It costs quite a bit of money to keep their operation going. They only are interested in cases that have a chance of making them some good profit. Assuming they look at the case and dont just go "What the hell is anime?" they have to decide that its even worth their time to send a nasty letter to such and such person. Now, if a Japanese Company decides to front up a HUGE amount of cash (more than they would probably make for suing the people), then the MPAA/RIAA might just do it. So the nasty letter comes and the person freaks out because they got a nasty letter and they go to their neighborly lawyer. The lawyers first question will probably be: "What the hell is anime?" and then they will advise the person to go to court with it.

Now, the judge: He/She will pick up the case and look at it..it will probably say something like the company is suing the person for downloading the anime Yami to Boushi to Hon no Tabibito off of Bittorrent. He/She will probably be confused for a minute about what the case is supposed to be about..then they will realize an easy solution: "Hey! I'll just make it easy and quote the Ninth Circuit's decision." The Japanese Company goes home confused because they probably wont know what kind of case the California Ninth Circuit case was about, while the MPAA/RIAA pats them on the back and says "Better luck next time, thanks for all the cash you gave us up front. Sorry but the judges order is final."

Now, lets say that the judge is highly against sharing (liked to horde his toys as a little kid) and decides he/she wants make a statement for himself by letting a Japanese Company sue some random person for downloading something that is completely unrelated to the majority of an American Lifestyle. But then he/she realizes that they risk being impeached because the ubsurdity of the decision, and still decides to rule in favor of the defendant.


Finally, whether or not filesharing is Copyright Infringement, will be a heavily debated topic in the near future. It even stands a decent chance of arriving at the Supreme Court. But, as for being sued for downloading anime before a major case decides it is Copyright Infringement (which I have mentioned earlier has been the opposite), no chance, 0%, nothin' doin' , in fact..I would give it a -1% if that was physically possible (maybe quantum physics..but thats a little different..kinda..nevermind..)

Last edited by Sukato; 2003-11-19 at 19:05.
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Old 2003-11-19, 01:08   Link #12
method
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There is so much wrong with your post Sukato.
First I want to say that anime, j-pop, are low priorities when it comes to these court cases since the rights are owned by groups that are not part of the RIAA/MPAA for the most part. However transfering licensed media is illegal since it is copyright infringement.

Also copyright infringement can be a felony as shown by the HulK case.
http://news.findlaw.com/prnewswire/2...003185349.html

What the courts said is that Kazaa and other p2p are not illegal since it was never the creators intend for the applications to be used in that way.
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Old 2003-11-19, 02:40   Link #13
Sukato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by method
First I want to say that anime, j-pop, are low priorities when it comes to these court cases since the rights are owned by groups that are not part of the RIAA/MPAA for the most part. However transfering licensed media is illegal since it is copyright infringement.

Also copyright infringement can be a felony as shown by the HulK case.
http://news.findlaw.com/prnewswire/...2003185349.html
Yeah, did you even read the whole post Method? I think I made it pretty clear that j-pop and anime is pretty low priority in court cases. And now for infringement: Notice On that website link:

"unfinished version of The Hulk"

"serious and permanent consequences for those who steal motion pictures"

Stealing an unfinished version of the Hulk IS illegal, and is a felony, but that is because he stole it. Not only that, it was an unfinished version of the Hulk. That's like someone walking into a research lab and taking their technology before they even have a chance to release it to the public. Therefore it wasnt because he posted it that he was charged, it was because he stole an unfinished version and then posted it.
Now, as for the rest of my post, I didnt post it to be questioned, its the hard truth and law of our country...period. Hate to break it to ya, but all that research comes out of the Ninth Circuit's case, and direct questioning (without any direct quotes or paraphrasing) an Assistant AG of consumer protections, chief of anti-trust for the state of oklahoma, and point of contact for the state on internet crimes. If you want the AAG's email address to ask her yourself (its actually quite common for people to contact government officials to question them on various stuff) : go to this link and down to Oklahoma:

http://www.antitrustinstitute.org/di...rustchiefs.pdf


You dont have to trust me, ask your nearest lawyer if you buy something and let people borrow it, is it legal? They will probably be hesitant, and finally say that it is legal..but depending on how you do it you might get sued for it. Of course, so far the lawsuits havent really been successful.

I'm not sure if you can find the case online..but I'll look for it and post a link if I can find it. Reading an actually court case, though annoying, is always the best way to find out how judges feel about issues.

Summary: Stealing is a crime, sharing is not. If you buy something, or borrow something from someone (like your best friend's book), its much different than taking something from a company (directly from a company in the Hulk case), and giving it away.

There is a HUGE national worry about the MPAA/RIAA, my post is pretty much there to try to at least calm down the anime community.

Edit: Ahh I did find another example of a criminal situation. It turns out that selling copies for profit is indeed criminal..not sure why I thought otherwise. Also wanted to add that MPAA/RIAA are lobby groups, and not part of the government. So it should be pretty obvious that when a letter shows up from MPAA/RIAA it isn't something criminal..because usually when something criminal happens the police will tend to show up instead of the nasty letter.

Last edited by Sukato; 2003-11-19 at 02:57.
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Old 2003-11-19, 02:54   Link #14
method
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Quote:
You dont have to trust me, ask your nearest lawyer if you buy something and let people borrow it, is it legal? They will probably be hesitant, and finally say that it is legal..but depending on how you do it you might get sued for it. Of course, so far the lawsuits havent really been successful.
First I was agreeing with you. There is a big difference between sharing something you have a right to and downloading movies or licensed anime. I never said that they were.

http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/MGM_v_Grok...eus_win_pr.php

http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/sony_maalouf_answer.php

http://www.eff.org/IP/P2P/howto-notgetsued.php

Last edited by method; 2003-11-19 at 03:12.
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Old 2003-11-19, 03:08   Link #15
Sukato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Method
There is so much wrong with your post Sukato.
This is agreeing? heh, its ok though.. I'll try to find actual cases and not just personal references to aid the anime community. Also remember that news tends to be highly biased (especially on the internet)..only actual case opinions can give you the unbiased decision. There was also that thing with Napster being sued successfully, but that was a company.. I'm pretty sure individual people were still safe during the Napster ordeal (besides the owners of Napster I guess). KaZaa seems immune to that because of where it's located I think..but I dont want to research that right now.

The Ninth Circuit court is kinda strange though, they do all sorts of wacky and very liberal stuff. Such things as declaring the pledge of allegiance unconstitutional, and declaring doctor assisted suicide constitutional. However, they also reverse their decisions a lot..so you never really know with those guys .

Edit: Oh also wanted to add in that whole Internet Privacy Act put in by former president Bill Clinton. I dont know much about this one though but I'm sure that somehow adds to the protection.
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Old 2003-11-19, 03:19   Link #16
method
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Your post at face value makes it seem that its ok to share to copyrighted material without permission of the copyright holder which is what I took exception to. While I might not agree with the tactics of the RIAA/MPAA when people have thousands of songs or gigs of movies on their hard drive and upload them they are committing copyright infringement. The Patriot Act and DMCA give the RIAA/MPAA a way to circumvent the privacy act. Who know with Bush in the White House, he may elect some judges that support the actions of the RIAA\MPAA and we could be fudged even in the anime community when they start shutting things down

Hey don't bash liberals, I'm kinda one.
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Old 2003-11-19, 03:24   Link #17
Sukato
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Ahh ok, when you started your post off like that I thought you were disagreeing with me, but I see how you were just adding on that anime is low priority. Mea Cupa (my bad).

Oh btw, it is true that a person can be sued for downloading stuff (I mentioned it in the long post but was taking a very liberal viewpoint on it). Its just the chances of a person successfully being sued is pretty slim. Sorry if I made it sound like its ok, I'm just saying its not technically "illegal". You can still call it illegal and many people do, but it doesnt make you a criminal and if it doesnt do that then technically its not illegal.

However, like I keep reiterating, you can indeed be sued. Even if it wont make you a criminal, there is that chance that you will owe people a lot of money.

Edit: Dont worry, I was just joking about how wacky those Ninth Circuit appellate judges are . No other judges in the world would rule the way they do on certain issues. I think I remember something about them permitting the use of pot for religious ceremonies, but it's probably just a rumor I heard.

As for me, I'm extremely Radical Liberal, one of those guys you dont want in office because he is way too left handed .

Last edited by Sukato; 2003-11-19 at 03:35.
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Old 2003-11-19, 03:27   Link #18
method
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Only the heavy traders of mainstream music from the list of subpoenas I've seen. I shouldn't have came off as attacking you so hard though.

Monetary damages will always make people take notice.

Downloading stuff is like speeding. As long as its done in moderation you won't get caught even though it is a violation.
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Old 2003-11-19, 03:39   Link #19
Sukato
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Wow, those new links to the EFF are kinda cool, I didnt know they existed.

"It's time to face the fact that in today's world, copyright law is broken. Our current copyright regime makes criminals out of music lovers. Worse, it makes suspected criminals out of all Internet users."

Some nice stuff on that site.

Edit: Oh yeah, I'm definately annoyed at those tactics you mentioned =/..like the ones that show a very angry or depressed cinema employee right before you watch your movie in the theatres.

Btw, Piracy is a generally shaky topic as well...as far as I know..piracy only happens when you take something from another country and start selling it here (like someone from a foreign country taking a US movie and making copies to sell in their country). But..I'm sure there is some loophole that ties piracy to people it shouldn't.

I think that the P2P sharing issue is probably one of the most important for my generation. My professors always tell me how I should be mostly concerned about affirmative action but I dont really care much about that..p2p is what I'm really concerned about.

Last edited by Sukato; 2003-11-19 at 03:53.
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Old 2003-11-19, 03:49   Link #20
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Your welcome. I found those on the techtv site.
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