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Old 2013-05-23, 05:06   Link #441
Kaisos Erranon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edge Meltdown View Post
Wow... How the mighty have fallen. Was it too soon/late?
It will probably do well at launch, but who knows how it will fare when the general public starts having problems with it...
I can't see the dedicated ("hardcore") audience having much to do with this system, yeah. It seems designed deliberately to upset us.
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Old 2013-05-23, 05:12   Link #442
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
It will probably do well at launch, but who knows how it will fare when the general public starts having problems with it...
I can't see the dedicated ("hardcore") audience having much to do with this system, yeah. It seems designed deliberately to upset us.
General public in the US maybe, everybody else in the world aren't going to benefit from all that tv-television-tv stuff...
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Old 2013-05-23, 05:41   Link #443
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Sides View Post
To be fair the setup inside the PS4 and XBone are not available to normal consumers. If I understated correctly, both are made up of two jaguar units, as opposed to a real 8 cores like AMD's other Desktop cpu lines. So it is really hard to compare them to commonly available apus out there, because these dual jaguar (don't think you can call them that, but there aren't true 8 cores either) won't be sold to endusers directly.
It's close enough design wise to having 2 A4-5000 CPUs to draw some inferences about the performance.

Actually, now that I've looked at things a bit more it's probably about equivalent to a Core 2 Quad or Phenom X4 - not as bad as I thought, actually. Assuming a workload that can actually take advantage of eight cores spread across two CPUs, of course. Still not sure why they did dual Jaguar (netbook/tablet) derived as opposed to single Richland (regular notebook) derived though, the latter seems to me like it would have been the natural fit for a console.
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Old 2013-05-23, 11:50   Link #444
kyp275
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http://penny-arcade.com/report/artic...t-could-be-the

http://penny-arcade.com/report/artic...d-i-doubt-youl

And it begins, the gaming media will now tell us the mistake of our ways, that it is actually a great thing that there is a used game fee, the secondary market should be destroyed, and we never should have been allowed to actually own the games we bought

un-fucking-believable.
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Old 2013-05-23, 11:55   Link #445
Destined_Fate
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Yeah... I had a laugh about "Steam-like" sales or the such from Microsoft, EA, and the such when we know that will never happen even if they do kill Used Game Sales from places like Gamestop.
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Old 2013-05-23, 12:13   Link #446
Sakuranbo
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I am pretty much ready to just hand over my wallet to Sony right now
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Old 2013-05-23, 12:22   Link #447
Dextro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0utf0xZer0 View Post
I'm well aware that console CPUs tend to be slower than contemporary desktops - Xbox one (I mean, original Xbox) was the same way, and I always expected the performance to be weak given that the CPU is based on jaguar cores. It's just that they could have used a regular mobile CPU as the basis for the unit. Why strap four netbook class CPUs that don't scale well to high clocks together?

As for why I'm comparing it to desktop CPUs... well, I've had this theory a desktop user with one of AMD's newer (ie. highly clocked) octo-core desktop ships probably won't need to upgrade their CPU for this entire generation. I wanted to see what the difference would be so I could tell if I appear to be on the mark.
I wouldn't be so quick to judge the Jaguar cores as "netbook class". AMD doesn't have a dedicated netbook architecture like Intel does, they just applied some tweaks to one of their regular architectures to save power and improve efficiency. They're still good full CPUs, they just get completely destroyed by what Intel is able to do with larger budgets and, most important of all, a full generation advantage in building process (Intel has for years managed to stay one step ahead of everyone else in the chip making game. While TSMC, for instance, was working out the kinks with 44nm Intel was already working on 32nm. That gives them a major boost in sheer efficiency).

Atom, btw, started as a reworking of an old Pentium. I don't quite recall if it was the Pentium 3 or the Pentium Pro but, considering the original Atom lacked plenty of features, I believe it might just have been the latter. Either way, it was old tech even when it was new while the Jaguar isn't.

Using Jaguar cores is actually a better future-proof option than what MS did with the original XBox. Back then Intel used the already old Pentium III architecture (I think) while now they're using a brand new architecture that AMD itself plans to sell latter this year.

Also: with 8 cores performing on par with most current PC CPUs performance is more very likely than good enough for AI and Pathfinding. Memory and it's bandwidth both to the CPU and the GPU, on the other hand, are much more critical factors imho and on that Sony made a gamble that will probably pay off tremendously. They fixed their major issue with the PS3 by making all RAM equally fast and accessible to both the CPU and GPU (note: the PS3 had a 50/50 hard split of it's 512mb or RAM between the CPU and GPU) while Microsoft went for what it already had in the 360 and used normal memory with a very fast cache to help overcome that particular bottleneck (note: the 360 had 512mb shared between the CPU and GPU combined with 32mb of very fast on-die ram that served as some sort of cache and the One seems to have a similar architecture).

Add to that the fact that the PS3 has what appears to be an equal part for the GPU but with more processing units I think we can expect the PS4 to have a slight edge over the XB1 (and I'm being conservative here. I honestly believe that the PS4 may be clearly superior graphics-wise this time round).
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Old 2013-05-23, 13:10   Link #448
0utf0xZer0
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Originally Posted by Dextro View Post
I wouldn't be so quick to judge the Jaguar cores as "netbook class". AMD doesn't have a dedicated netbook architecture like Intel does, they just applied some tweaks to one of their regular architectures to save power and improve efficiency.
My Thinkpad X120E is powered by a 1.6ghz dual core Bobcat so I know Bobcat/Jaguar is much faster than Atom. It's still meant for cheap, inexpensive laptops (I consider my X120E halfway between a netbook and a "full" laptop, though I do everything with it I did with the latter) and thoroughly trounced by other modern laptop CPUs though. It's mainly the choice of an architecture that's know not to scale well above maybe 2ghz (and probably won't even hit that in the XBone/PS4) that surprises me.

Realistically, I think the Core 2 Quad/Phenom II X4 level performance I calculated for properly threaded workloads is probably "enough" for a console.
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Old 2013-05-23, 13:55   Link #449
Tong
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This better mean better PC ports.
Ports were SO bad in the past gen (looking at you GTA 4).
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Old 2013-05-23, 14:10   Link #450
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And makes life easier for hackers in emulation
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Old 2013-05-23, 14:15   Link #451
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I haven't been a serious gamer in some time, but what I recently heard about the Xbox One is so outrageous that I felt compelled to comment on it.

People buy and sell used vehicles all the time.

People buy and sell used furniture all the time.

People buy and sell old pro sports cards all the time.

People buy and sell old comic books all the time.

People buy and sell old books all the time.

Heck, people even buy and sell other people's clothes sometimes.

I don't recall Ford, Lazyboy, Upperdeck, Marvel, Kadokawa, or Gap caring a whole lot about it though. They recognize that this is perfectly normal, legal, and legitimate human behavior.


So where the hell does the video game industry (or at least Microsoft) get off thinking that people shouldn't be able to sell used video games? What makes a video game any more important than a vehicle, or a piece of furniture?

And I guess this means that Microsoft wants to throw renting games completely out the window. So people can lease cars, and rent movies, but apparently video games are so sacrosanct that it's buy outright or go home.


Some here think that the general public is going to go along with this? The general public is going to think that this is flatout ridiculous, because no other industry behaves this way.

The big question is if Sony follows Microsoft's horrible customer-hating approach here. If Sony doesn't, then I think a lot of Xbox buyers switch over the to the next generation Playstation. If Sony does follow Microsoft's approach, then serious console gamers are going to have a very hard decision to make.
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Old 2013-05-23, 14:24   Link #452
T-6000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
http://penny-arcade.com/report/artic...t-could-be-the

http://penny-arcade.com/report/artic...d-i-doubt-youl

And it begins, the gaming media will now tell us the mistake of our ways, that it is actually a great thing that there is a used game fee, the secondary market should be destroyed, and we never should have been allowed to actually own the games we bought

un-fucking-believable.
Unless Microsoft focuses on digital distribution more than traditional physical sales, I don't think the console market prices (especially for the XBox One) will change. We see more frequent sales on Steam and quicker price drops down the road because of the focus on digital distribution. Another thing to consider is that when Console gamers sold off their games they were able to use the funds to buy an extra game or two. Now with this DRM incorporated into XBox One, people will be buying less frequently and only buying the absolute best games (or ones that interest them the most). And yet another thing to consider is that if the PS4 isn't restricting the second hand sale in any way more people could flock to the PS4. Sony could take advantage of this by releasing promotional sources (such as Magazine ads and even TV ads) that rip on Microsoft for restricting the second hand market. But we'll have to see where Sony takes things from here.

And also, not to mention, if people can't try out games before they buy them (and since demos are very rare nowadays) we could see a rise in piracy. Some people have pirated a game in order to try them out, and I'll admit I have pirated a couple of games this past year to try them out. I was on the fence on purchasing them but couldn't try them out since there was no game demo available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tong View Post
This better mean better PC ports.
Ports were SO bad in the past gen (looking at you GTA 4).
I really hope so, since console ports to PC throughout most of this generation have been mediocre at best. Well, most of them. Valve were one of the few developers that actually put effort into PC ports. But as I have posted a few times, I think we PC Gamers are going to be given the cold shoulder once again, and it may be worse than during this console generation.

http://www.bluesnews.com/s/141910/ms...rd-to-continue
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Old 2013-05-23, 14:40   Link #453
shadow1296
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i have been hearing some rumors that there are some game developers trying to back out of their contracts with microsoft after the announcement of the xbox one, any one know if this is true or just baseless rumors
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Old 2013-05-23, 14:51   Link #454
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Some here think that the general public is going to go along with this?
Of course they will, because they don't know or care about this. All they know is that their screaming 12-year-olds want to play the next Call of Duty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
General public in the US maybe, everybody else in the world aren't going to benefit from all that tv-television-tv stuff...
Well yeah, they don't care about the non-domestic audience. That much is obvious.
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Old 2013-05-23, 14:52   Link #455
Kirito
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Spoiler for Saving Space:


You'd be surprised how much of a negative backlash the Xbox One is receiving in Japan right now. Even they admitted that the console itself is a lost cause and they even cleverly mocked the features of said system, add the quotes of employee's and company statements, as well. Granted we don't know much about the other news or features that Sony has in store for E3 and for the gamers for that matter. But there's so much support for the PS4 from their home court right now for it to end up like the Xbox One.

In the end it's up to Sony to prove that the 8th gen has a future. Regardless how a company acts or present their products, there will always be supporters ready to defend them needlessly positively or negatively.
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Old 2013-05-23, 15:04   Link #456
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Of course they will, because they don't know or care about this. All they know is that their screaming 12-year-olds want to play the next Call of Duty.
You really think that the primary market for video games is kids? That hasn't been the case for quite some time now.

When adults buy something brand new for themselves, they expect to be able to sell it one day as an used product. Most adults will do at least a little bit of research before making a major electronics purchase for themselves (and given the price of most modern console systems, it's not a minor electronics purchase any more).

If Microsoft thinks the general public will save them from a hardcore gamer backlash, then I think they are quite mistaken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarami View Post

In the end it's up to Sony to prove that the 8th gen has a future. Regardless how a company acts or present their products, there will always be supporters ready to defend them needlessly positively or negatively.
I agree.

Sony simply has to be moderately competent and actually customer-friendly. That's it. If it does just that much, it already has both Nintendo and Microsoft beat for the 8th gen.
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Old 2013-05-23, 15:29   Link #457
FlareKnight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
http://penny-arcade.com/report/artic...t-could-be-the

http://penny-arcade.com/report/artic...d-i-doubt-youl

And it begins, the gaming media will now tell us the mistake of our ways, that it is actually a great thing that there is a used game fee, the secondary market should be destroyed, and we never should have been allowed to actually own the games we bought

un-fucking-believable.
Not that surprised. Reminds me back to the ME3 ending chaos. People had issues and the gaming media just kept talking about how stupid and wrong gamers were. They know where the money is coming from and will only pretend to give a damn about the consumer long as it lines up with the corporations.
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Old 2013-05-23, 16:12   Link #458
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post

Sony simply has to be moderately competent and actually customer-friendly. That's it. If it does just that much, it already has both Nintendo and Microsoft beat for the 8th gen.

As I've said- Sony would have this in the bag already so long at the barest of minimum, they don't do anything to fuck up the hype train they have going.

They seriously don't need to do anymore that Microsoft hasn't already done to themselves- You have to be Capcom level retarded to fuck this up right now if you can't clearly see the backlash that your competitor is having.


EDIT:


Microsoft Promises More Japanese Support For Xbox One At E3
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Old 2013-05-23, 16:22   Link #459
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You really think that the primary market for video games is kids?
For military shooters? Hell yes.
The reason they're selling the Xbone as a multimedia device is so that other members of the household have a reason to use it as well, thus justifying its price.
Most adults still consider video games to be toys and thus do not play them.
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Old 2013-05-23, 16:38   Link #460
Kirito
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Do they really think that the Japanese market will take this seriously, after it's painfully clear to them that the system itself is a lost cause. Just another means to add more salt to the wounds.

Well as I said Dwarven Vow#5: The more you add, the worse it gets!
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Last edited by Kirito; 2013-05-23 at 17:48. Reason: Sentence - Word Missing!
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