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Old 2013-04-07, 21:05   Link #61
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xagzan View Post
B-but that was just one game! We're talking about a whole console of games here! Surely they couldn't be--ahh, who am I kidding
Remember Sega's hardware business? They were once equal to Nintendo; then they threw it all away.
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Old 2013-04-07, 21:16   Link #62
creb
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This'll be an interesting thread to return to a year after the next Xbox is released.
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Old 2013-04-07, 21:59   Link #63
GDB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Remember Sega's hardware business? They were once equal to Nintendo; then they threw it all away.
Sega's only problem was getting outmatched by the PS2. It was nothing they inherently did wrong, unlike what Microsoft would potentially end up doing.
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Old 2013-04-08, 10:24   Link #64
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Rumor mill seems to be going overdrive the last few days regarding Durango. But personally, the rumors only serve to generate attention for it but Microsoft have been pretty silent which is probably doing more harm to them than anything else.

As for exclusivity, I doubt we'll see anything soon unless it's their own studios. 3rd party studios have been carefully using the term next gen instead of commiting to any particular platform since it's uncertain how Durango will actually match up to PS4.

Wii U though is in an odd spot though for Nintendo, sandwiched between the lack of games for it and inferior specs. This time they don't have the motion gaming novelty behind it either.
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Old 2013-04-08, 10:26   Link #65
Chaos2Frozen
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Speaking of which...

Rumor: The Verge sources echo May 21 reveal for Next Xbox


Quote:
“We understand this date is accurate,” reads the website. “This is the tentative date for a next-generation Xbox announcement, but Microsoft had originally planned an April 24th event.”
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Old 2013-04-09, 05:39   Link #66
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GDB View Post
Sega's only problem was getting outmatched by the PS2. It was nothing they inherently did wrong, unlike what Microsoft would potentially end up doing.
Sega probably could have survived the PS2, but they had screwed up so much transitioning from Genesis/MD to Saturn and then exiting that to the DC that it pretty much spelled their end as a console maker. They pretty much killed themselves, market competition just helped it along.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Wii U though is in an odd spot though for Nintendo, sandwiched between the lack of games for it and inferior specs. This time they don't have the motion gaming novelty behind it either.
The specs really aren't that inferior. It seems like it when people freak out about all the acronyms on a PR sheet, but in real world visuals it won't be as noticeable except in a few titles. One of the best looking titles from the previous gen was Super Mario Galaxy after all. All the specs in the world don't mean much if your design team sucks.

Games is a big problem for them though, at least for this year. I don't think it will last long in regards to first party efforts though, if the 3DS is any indication. The problem is third parties, which seems to have died despite promises made during E3 (EA's "unprecedented partnership"). But Nintendo has some catch up to do, in infrastructure and in services.

I think what will determine the future of the Wii U will be these things:

1. If the post launches of Sony and MS have momentum.
2. Nintendo's efforts to remarket the Wii U.
3. Nintendo's efforts to partner for content in the East.

Sony appears to have the best momentum, imo. They'll likely emerge from this in the number one spot. But, that depends on MS of course. If the rumors are true, MS could be hurting. They rely far more heavily on third parties than Sony and Nintendo do, and that can be a problem given the financial state of third parties currently. Plus, while Japan is now considered a smaller market, many of the top software companies are from Japan: Konami, Capcom, etc., and those companies will determine who gets overall better support than any Western company. Since Japan has historically shunned Western consoles, and Nintendo is finally "hd", we might see eastern support shift to Sony and Nintendo instead of Sony and MS if Microsoft can't find a foothold in the transition.

I wonder if MS actually cares though. The Xbox was always a trojan horse for the company, who wanted to push a Windows PC into the living room where it could be the premier entertainment hub. Nintendo and Sony are still primarily about making gaming machines, but I'm not sure if that's what MS will focus on this gen. That might cost them, considering that the market for content devices streaming media and games is way more crowded than it was in 2006.
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Old 2013-04-09, 11:53   Link #67
creb
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The Wii U was a stupid device and that isn't going to change any time soon. The Wii managed to be a success, despite being yesteryear's tech because it didn't try to be an Xbox 360/PS 3, and made a major push for "casual" gaming.

The Wii U tries to be an Xbox 360/PS 3. But, within a year, MS and Sony will have moved on. Dual screen gaming isn't going to be a remotely compelling carrot for gamers to play "hard core" video games on yesteryears tech with the Wii U, and it seems doubful that games for the PS 4/Durango will be able to go multi-platform with the Wii U, just like there are few games on the PS3/Xbox 360 that are multi-platform with the Wii.

As for the MS/Sony arguments, I know, I know. This is an argument rife with incessant fanboy blinders, but I'll say this: MS didn't reach console dominance (in America, at least), because of Japanese developers. The idea that Japanese developers drive the industry seems about a decade late.

Based on the very incremental update to the PS line, I doubt there's going to be much difference between it and the next Xbox, and most games will continue being multi-platform. With the cost of producing AAA titles, large publishing houses would need a heck of a lot of incentives to not try to cast as wide a net as possible, so the "games" argument, to me, holds little water, and hasn't since the PS 2 era-and only if you liked JRPGs back then.

The real issue is the online services, which Xbox is simply light years ahead of the PSN in. And, much like World of Warcraft's millions of players who are exhausted of the game, but continue to play it because they have years of emotional investment, it'll take a paradigm-shifting event for many who game primarily on their Xbox to jump ship. I'm not a huge achievement junkie, but there are a LOT of people who are.

I think the idea that "always on" is going to be that shift to be drastically overblown melodrama, but I suppose time will tell. I know where I'd put my money on though, if this was Vegas.
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Old 2013-04-09, 12:47   Link #68
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
I think the idea that "always on" is going to be that shift to be drastically overblown melodrama, but I suppose time will tell. I know where I'd put my money on though, if this was Vegas.
So would I. After all, a Console that can't be used at all in many people's households is definitely going to lose out to a console that has online features but is still able to be used in anyone's homes that only has a TV and electricity.

People aren't going to hold their noses and buy 720 if they know they are only getting an expensive paperweight. Sony will have a larger base of customers because there are more people who could actually USE their console.

Further, people who DO have stable and cheap internet, know that their 720 would still become an expensive paperweight once the console server support gets turned off. With backward compatibility being out of fashion, it means all 720 games would stop being playable period. This means all 720 discs would be expensive Frisbees.
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Old 2013-04-09, 16:59   Link #69
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by creb View Post
The Wii U was a stupid device and that isn't going to change any time soon. The Wii managed to be a success, despite being yesteryear's tech because it didn't try to be an Xbox 360/PS 3, and made a major push for "casual" gaming.

The Wii U tries to be an Xbox 360/PS 3. But, within a year, MS and Sony will have moved on. Dual screen gaming isn't going to be a remotely compelling carrot for gamers to play "hard core" video games on yesteryears tech with the Wii U, and it seems doubful that games for the PS 4/Durango will be able to go multi-platform with the Wii U, just like there are few games on the PS3/Xbox 360 that are multi-platform with the Wii.
The Wii U isn't old tech. It's much newer than the previous gen's tech. It's also built completely differently in terms of architecture. While they're more CPU reliant, the Wii U is more GPU reliant. Will it perform on par with PS4/720? No, of course not, but it will be capable of most of the same graphics, with some sacrifices.

The Wii was completely outmatched, I'm well aware of how huge the gap was between it and PS3/360. However it still produced some very pretty games. What held it back the most was sticking to SD resolutions. If you've ever seen Dolphin in action, just upping the resolution and adding anti-aliasing makes a huge difference.

The PS4/720 systems are already outdated by PC tech. Last generation was the last time a console could hope to match or exceed PC graphics, and that isn't happening this time around. Nor is HD visuals an advantage this time. We've reached a point of diminishing returns on visuals, for now. The gap between the three in this gen is much smaller than it was last gen. It'll be more like the PS2/GC/Xbox gen.

Quote:
As for the MS/Sony arguments, I know, I know. This is an argument rife with incessant fanboy blinders, but I'll say this: MS didn't reach console dominance (in America, at least), because of Japanese developers. The idea that Japanese developers drive the industry seems about a decade late.
They don't drive the industry as much as they used to, no, but pulling games that were once exclusive to Playstation was a huge coup for Microsoft initially. Metal Gear, Final Fantasy, etc., are still big names in gaming and they do drive system sales. Not having them on your console hurts, just ask Nintendo. Exclusives do matter, just as much as breaking that exclusivity.

Imagine if Nintendo had locked down every major Japanese franchise. The outrage from PS/Xbox fans would drown the internet. Bayonetta created a huge amount of rage, and that sold like crap.

Quote:
Based on the very incremental update to the PS line, I doubt there's going to be much difference between it and the next Xbox, and most games will continue being multi-platform. With the cost of producing AAA titles, large publishing houses would need a heck of a lot of incentives to not try to cast as wide a net as possible, so the "games" argument, to me, holds little water, and hasn't since the PS 2 era-and only if you liked JRPGs back then.

The real issue is the online services, which Xbox is simply light years ahead of the PSN in. And, much like World of Warcraft's millions of players who are exhausted of the game, but continue to play it because they have years of emotional investment, it'll take a paradigm-shifting event for many who game primarily on their Xbox to jump ship. I'm not a huge achievement junkie, but there are a LOT of people who are.
I'm not sure AAA is going to be a viable business model for much longer, at least not in the form we've seen in the previous gens. But yes, I do agree that services will matter the most going forward, and the system with the best ecosystem (in the consumers mind) will definitely own significant market and mind share.

Quote:
I think the idea that "always on" is going to be that shift to be drastically overblown melodrama, but I suppose time will tell. I know where I'd put my money on though, if this was Vegas.
Internet infrastructure in the US is horrible. Always on is just not something most mainstream consumers are ready for. But it's not really the always on that has people worried, it's access. Will there be limits on used games, will servers be around for older games if they don't have high sales, etc.? What happens when the servers crash, how much of the system becomes useless? That kind of thing. Between the patents, the rumors, and things companies have already done, it's enough to drive worry and speculation until the full reveals around E3.
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Old 2013-04-09, 17:04   Link #70
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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You know what? If Microsoft is willing to offer fast, affordable and uncapped internet packaged with a 720 in Australia, I would be willing to buy it. But Microsoft knows they can't offer that. Frankly I would buy it just to HAVE a fast internet, and leave the console in the cardboard box.
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Old 2013-04-11, 00:20   Link #71
Chaos2Frozen
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Two things;

1) Adam Orth 'departs' from Microsoft.

2) Rumor: Next Xbox’s TV strategy, offline play, more
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Old 2013-04-11, 03:55   Link #72
Sides
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
If this is true, I think they will get into the same trouble like Nintendo, if they don't name both consoles distinguishable from each other.
Panic Averted, Durango support offline gaming and secondhand games, just like every other console.
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Old 2013-04-11, 04:43   Link #73
Westlo
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Will be interesting to see if the VGleaks leak is true, would mean the Versus being FF15 and a Sony exclusive is probably true as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The gap between the three in this gen is much smaller than it was last gen. It'll be more like the PS2/GC/Xbox gen.
Not really, the Wii U would be more closer to the Dreamcast and that's being nice.
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Old 2013-04-11, 05:06   Link #74
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Will be interesting to see if the VGleaks leak is true, would mean the Versus being FF15 and a Sony exclusive is probably true as well.
Not sure but wasn't FF15/Versus always stated as being a sony (PS3) platform game? Don't think anything has changed, except for the platform and possible being partially funded now, or for a while, by sony.
VGleaks seems to have accurate data, but some of the information seem to be dated when they are released, which in turn makes them seem inaccurate again for present day.
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Old 2013-04-11, 10:25   Link #75
Solace
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
Not really, the Wii U would be more closer to the Dreamcast and that's being nice.
It's not true, but even if it was, that's not a bad thing. The DC wasn't exactly weak for its time. I was arguing against the notion that the Wii U will be comparable to the Wii's graphical abilities in the previous gen, which just won't be true. The Wii was literally incapable of running some of the games that the PS3 and 360 could run, like Crysis. Even games it could run were severely downported, like Call of Duty.

Of course, that didn't make them unplayable, and the system does have some graphical standouts, but the graphics downgrade was extremely noticeable, especially in third party multiplatforms. That won't be true this gen, except maybe in a few rare cases of a developer really pushing the hardware....but then again that goes for all three systems. The Wii U can run everything the other two next gen systems can, with a few dials turned down at the worst. It's a big difference from the last gen.

Either way, at worst this is a repeat of Gen 6 in terms of power difference, and that's not a bad thing for us as gamers. Graphics never really decide these gen wars anyway, it always comes down to games and services.
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Old 2013-04-11, 11:49   Link #76
Jazzrat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You know what? If Microsoft is willing to offer fast, affordable and uncapped internet packaged with a 720 in Australia, I would be willing to buy it. But Microsoft knows they can't offer that. Frankly I would buy it just to HAVE a fast internet, and leave the console in the cardboard box.
Poor Australia, i was there when they started capping internet quota and it was still in the early days where digital purchase haven't come into fashion yet. But apparently the government are doing something about it no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Either way, at worst this is a repeat of Gen 6 in terms of power difference, and that's not a bad thing for us as gamers. Graphics never really decide these gen wars anyway, it always comes down to games and services.
I wasn't too fond of WiiU's release strategy. Considering the financial success they had with the DS, I'm surprised they couldn't held back their release until the next gen benchmark is certain (i.e wait till after PS4/Xbox release their spec).

While it's not always about the graphic fidelity when it comes to games, hardware limitation is always there and there's a mass appeal when it comes having a beefier system. Just looking at games coming out for the next gen, WiiU is never mentioned by developers. It's not even considered to be the next gen, so WiiU would have to rely on exclusive and their franchise catalog to drive sales.

Personally I like to see a competitive environment between the 3 major players because it's good for us as consumers. Xbox to stop it's silly subscription to be online and Nintendo to have more 3rd party games.
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Old 2013-04-11, 13:34   Link #77
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
Graphics never really decide these gen wars anyway
That isn't what the 'industry leaders' seem to think. Did you see the PS4 conference?
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Old 2013-04-11, 13:46   Link #78
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Of course hardware matters. It's just that there are tech cutoff points where if you go too far, you hit the wall of price/reliability/ease of programming.

People want a powerful console. But if it costs too much, if it crashes/overheats, or if game developers hate it (Cell processor of PS3) , then the bad outweighs the good.
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Old 2013-04-11, 14:15   Link #79
Roger Rambo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Of course hardware matters. It's just that there are tech cutoff points where if you go too far, you hit the wall of price/reliability/ease of programming.

People want a powerful console. But if it costs too much, if it crashes/overheats, or if game developers hate it (Cell processor of PS3) , then the bad outweighs the good.
I think another problem is that the difference between each console generation in terms of graphical advancement is narrowing. The difference in terms of graphics between the PS2 and the PS1 was certainly greater than between the PS3 an the PS2.
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Old 2013-04-11, 14:21   Link #80
Solace
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Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
I wasn't too fond of WiiU's release strategy. Considering the financial success they had with the DS, I'm surprised they couldn't held back their release until the next gen benchmark is certain (i.e wait till after PS4/Xbox release their spec).
I'm really not sure what Nintendo thinks these days. They just kinda do whatever it is they do, and make gobs of money at it. At least they keep things interesting, which is why I miss the old Sega vs Nintendo rivalry. You never knew what either of them were gonna unleash next. Sony and MS are more predictable.

Quote:
While it's not always about the graphic fidelity when it comes to games, hardware limitation is always there and there's a mass appeal when it comes having a beefier system. Just looking at games coming out for the next gen, WiiU is never mentioned by developers. It's not even considered to be the next gen, so WiiU would have to rely on exclusive and their franchise catalog to drive sales.
No doubt about the system specs things. They do win mindshare, I won't deny that. It's just that ultimately, it's never really translated into generation success. Gaining developer support on the other hand, does, and I do think Nintendo is hurt there by western development. But I have my reservations if the path that development has been chasing is actually sustainable, when I look back on this generation and the graveyard of companies who gambled and lost on chasing AAA dreams.

I mean, when a company like Square comes out and says "Yeah, we sold millions of copies of our games but they still lost us money", you have to wonder about the business model these guys are using. At the very least, a company like Nintendo has a strong first party to sustain itself, but a company like Microsoft could be really hurt by a large contraction in AAA game development.

Quote:
Personally I like to see a competitive environment between the 3 major players because it's good for us as consumers. Xbox to stop it's silly subscription to be online and Nintendo to have more 3rd party games.
I think this generation is the last of the the trio. One of them is going to abandon the market. It may even be Nintendo, but my money is on Microsoft.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
That isn't what the 'industry leaders' seem to think. Did you see the PS4 conference?
The most interesting thing in that conference was a bunch of adults having a puppet show. The rest talked about high end graphics as if the PC has never existed.

I'm hoping MS offers something more compelling, but then again....they aren't known for amazing conferences.
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