[Manga] Naruto Chapter 620 Discussion Thread

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Artimus_Prime

greetings itachi-san314...

hello

so about this Blood-Soaked past...
you think there were other uchihas to obtain the MS and EMS? because i feel like the requirements are quite strict. 5 of our 6 canon MS users (we know little about izuna) were fairly docile people who subsequently witnessed/endured great loss after first having a deep love lol...i feel like going a murder raid in quest for power wouldnt earn you the MS...thus izanagi is likely the most power an "average" uchiha reigned in and perhaps didnt give the senju that much trouble...idk. chapter 621 needs to come wit it!

maybe not EMS, but yes to MS. it was stated (i dont feel like searching for it) that the uchiha who knew madara and izuna had MS and then subsequently that madara had EMS, would steal the eys of other uchiha to hopefully gain those powers. also i'm not sure why re-writing history wouldnt be thought of as an amazing ability that wouldn't give an opponent trouble.

Originally Posted by Hunter

This is quite simply entirely wrong.
Yes out of the 3 Senju we know only 1 possesses god-like power, the others two "only" being Kage-level. There is however also only one Uchiha who reached god-like power and that is Madara. The MS alone is no near god like and is completely irrelevant to the discussion anyway, the first MS user was Madara and there have only been a handful of them none of whom were average by definition. I'll not even go into your claim that Izanami and Izanagi were widespread and often used which is mathematically impossible considering the cost because even then their use doesn't make someone god-like by any stretch of the imagination. Izanagi for Uchiha who aren't enhanced with Senju DNA can only last for the briefest of time and is merely a panic button that will sacrifice your sight to avoid death. It is a powerful ability but it's not a game changer, an average fighter (assuming an average Ninja CAN use this in the first place) will still be average with it, he will cheat death once lose an eye and still be the same average fighter and what then? Not everybody has a Sharingarm, a body made of Senju wood or a few score of Sharingan on his wall.

straight from itachi's mouth in ch. 587: "the risk that 'izanagi''s use implied was much worse than just losing one's eyesight. it's users became arrogant and used it too much for themselves'

in other words there were several users and they used it over and over again. case closed?

if you don't think rewriting history is godlike then i doubt we can ever agree

also, sasuke (fairly new to using MS) took the raikage's arm, was about to take his leg and then most likely beat him and A's a 'kage-level fighter' of course. and do i even need to explain that MS would destroy tsunade? she was utterly useless vs pain (im not saying rinnegan = MS, just an example of how she pales in comparison to these abilities). all she can do is keep healing herself and others so that the MS could tear her apart again

No? Because that's basically what Sage-mode is and it made Naruto Kage level.
There are basically two types of power up, the overall increase in physical abilities and new particular techniques. That's the difference between Sage mode and the MS for example. If Naruto was a game it'd be the difference between a new spell and better stats, the latter isn't a flashy as the former but it's no less effective.

but when naruto (using chakra mode - better than sage mode) fought edo-nagato, he had no chance. itachi (using MS) had to save him and bee to boot. they are not equal powers at all

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Somewhat long-ish post, just scroll up.

^I... have nothing to add to that. Apparently we don't -always- look at things radically differently.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but when naruto (using chakra mode - better than sage mode) fought edo-nagato, he had no chance. itachi (using MS) had to save him and bee to boot. they are not equal powers at all

I believe that has less to do with Itachi being an Uchiha, and more with Itachi being Itachi.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I believe that has less to do with Itachi being an Uchiha, and more with Itachi being Itachi.

that's an incorrect way of looking at things. yes, itachi is one of the best uchiha (and ninja) in history, but it's because he is an uchiha that he even had the potential to have these amazing abilities.

it's like saying that chouji becoming a giant is more chouji being chouji than him being an akamichi. but a yamanaka wouldn't be able to turn into a giant no matter what. every clan has its stellar members. so far in the senju/uchiha debate my point is that the uchiha have had many stellar members with many stellar abilities whereas the senju have just had hashirama as far as we know. yes, tobirama and tsunade are kage level, but i've pointed out how the stellar uchiha are beyond that level

[Dengar]

It was Itachi's shuriken technique that took down Nagato.

[MysticNinjaJay]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that's an incorrect way of looking at things. yes, itachi is one of the best uchiha (and ninja) in history, but it's because he is an uchiha that he even had the potential to have these amazing abilities.

it's like saying that chouji becoming a giant is more chouji being chouji than him being an akamichi. but a yamanaka wouldn't be able to turn into a giant no matter what. every clan has its stellar members. so far in the senju/uchiha debate my point is that the uchiha have had many stellar members with many stellar abilities whereas the senju have just had hashirama as far as we know. yes, tobirama and tsunade are kage level, but i've pointed out how the stellar uchiha are beyond that level

Kishimoto has been focused on the Uchiha. For all we know the Senju are equally as talented. They would have to be an exceptional clan in order for them to be the rivals of the Uchiha in the first place. Both descend from the Sage of Six Paths.

Hashirama happens to be the most powerful ninja of his era with apparently no equal among the current generation of ninja. As far as we know however the Senju has no advanced bloodline ability and the Uchiha have the reputation of producing a large number of exceptional ninja. So the way the story is being told it does appear as though the Uchiha are more talented but it's never been officially stated as such.

Itachi is portrayed as being a prodigy among a clan who is already known for producing elite ninja.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by james0246

Not necessarily (though I tend to agree). Tobirama still ignored Hashirama and set out to War, the only thing that stopped him was Orochimaru. The only true indicator that Hashirama was "above" Tobirama was the fact that Hashirama seemingly broke free of Orochimaru's control (whether that means just mind or mind and body is unknown), and it is possible that was only accomplished because Orochimaru is in a Hashirama cloned body.

I thought the only thing that stopped Harashirama was the fact that a war would continue again if he didn't answer Sasuke's questions. He already broke free of the control (as far as I know), but chose to obey Orochimaru (due to the realization).

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Dengar

It was Itachi's shuriken technique that took down Nagato.

i think even you have lost sight of your own points if there ever were any. where do you think itachi gets that keen sight and chakra sensing ability from? could it be... the sharingan?

also if you think that a mere shuriken tech is what took edo-nagato down then you are ignoring so much that i dont want to waste my time explaining what it all is

Originally Posted by MysticNinjaJay

Kishimoto has been focused on the Uchiha. For all we know the Senju are equally as talented. They would have to be an exceptional clan in order for them to be the rivals of the Uchiha in the first place. Both descend from the Sage of Six Paths.

this is what i'm saying exactly. im not saying the senju cant be explained. im saying i want to see the explanation because as it stands now, then they don't logically make sense as rivals

Hashirama happens to be the most powerful ninja of his era with apparently no equal among the current generation of ninja. As far as we know however the Senju has no advanced bloodline ability and the Uchiha have the reputation of producing a large number of exceptional ninja. So the way the story is being told it does appear as though the Uchiha are more talented but it's never been officially stated as such.

its actually been told to us that the senju are not only equals, but slightly better than the uchiha. madara was worried that the senju would wipe the uchiha out if they formed an alliance [ch399 p6]. also, it was the senju who became hokages and put the uchiha in their place. sounds to me like the senju were a peg up on the uchiha and the reason is... i'm waiting on you kishi

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

straight from itachi's mouth in ch. 587: "the risk that 'izanagi''s use implied was much worse than just losing one's eyesight. it's users became arrogant and used it too much for themselves'

in other words there were several users and they used it over and over again. case closed?

if you don't think rewriting history is godlike then i doubt we can ever agree

First this doesn't answer to anything I've said. Secondly Izanagi doesn't "rewrite history" it's basically a checkpoint your body will rewind to which make you unkillable during a few seconds at the cost of your eye. This is a powerful ability to use when you're desperate but it's certainly not godlike or Danzou and his super bio-engineered Izanagi would be alive and ruling Konoha.

also, sasuke (fairly new to using MS) took the raikage's arm, was about to take his leg and then most likely beat him and A's a 'kage-level fighter' of course. and do i even need to explain that MS would destroy tsunade? she was utterly useless vs pain (im not saying rinnegan = MS, just an example of how she pales in comparison to these abilities). all she can do is keep healing herself and others so that the MS could tear her apart again

All this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. You claim you're talking about the regular Senju and Uchiha and yet can't help but take Sasuke and Itachi as example when they are 2 of the top 5 Uchiha who have ever lived.

but when naruto (using chakra mode - better than sage mode) fought edo-nagato, he had no chance. itachi (using MS) had to save him and bee to boot. they are not equal powers at all

This is similar than saying that since Minato (regular eyes) defeated Obito (Uchiha + Senju DNA + MS) then regular people are superior to all those Bloodlines. This is a ridiculous argument which, again, doesn't answer the points I've made in the slightest.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

sounds to me like the senju were a peg up on the uchiha and the reason is... i'm waiting on you kishi

It sounds to me like you're placing the Uchiha on a pedestal they were never on. Consider a few facts:

1. Very few ever awoken the MS. In fact Itachi himself believed only Madara before him awakened the MS when he spared Sasuke's life during the Uchiha massacre. Obviously Itachi didn't know of Obito at the time and its obvious Madara's brother was thrown in there as an after thought.

2. Not every Uchiha awaken's the Sharingan. But every Senju we've seen so far seems to have amazing vitality.

What's left to worry about against the Uchiha? Oh right Genjutsu... Chiyo already gave a sound strategy for that.. never fight a sharingan user alone. Hunter already addressed Izanagi, so not gonna go over that again.

You tend to focus on the active/flashy feats rather than the passive/ subtle ones. Consider that it was only the Uzumaki clan (Senju) who were able to become hosts and contain the Kyuubi (before he was even stripped of 1/2 his chakra). Consider that Naruto's mother actually survived the Kyuubi being separated from her (something that normally kills the host instantly).

After saying all that.. I actually agree with you, but I'm able to dismiss it as bad writing nothing more. Kish gave the Uchihas amazing illusionary powers yet he has to go out of his way to find excuses for these powers not to be used when it makes perfect sense to use them. Example? Madara could have created many clones of himself, tsukuyomi-ed the entire alliance and had a peaceful 10-tails summoning..but he didn't why? Its boring story-telling.

Don't look for 100% rationality in a kid's manga.. you're not going to find it.

[Hunter]

The Senju were incredibly badly implanted in the show, the author simply pulled them out of thin air 398 chapter into the story and we still don't know anything about them 122 chapter later.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

First this doesn't answer to anything I've said.

you said izanagi wasnt widespread or often used.

Secondly Izanagi doesn't "rewrite history" it's basically a checkpoint your body will rewind to which make you unkillable during a few seconds at the cost of your eye.

oh... you mean "rewrite history"

This is a powerful ability to use when you're desperate but it's certainly not godlike or Danzou and his super bio-engineered Izanagi would be alive and ruling Konoha.

this is a funny point since it was a powerful uchiha using MS who beat danzo...

All this has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

it does. you forget what you wrote. you made a point of saying that tobirama and tsunade are 'kage level' and i am saying that 'kage level' doesnt amount to much when facing MS.

You claim you're talking about the regular Senju and Uchiha and yet can't help but take Sasuke and Itachi as example when they are 2 of the top 5 Uchiha who have ever lived.

nope. never said regular. i specifically used the word 'stellar'. if you like i can say elite or any other synonym. its all been reduced to semantics at this point right?

This is similar than saying that since Minato (regular eyes) defeated Obito (Uchiha + Senju DNA + MS) then regular people are superior to all those Bloodlines. This is a ridiculous argument which, again, doesn't answer the points I've made in the slightest.

i was answering your point about sage mode equaling MS

Originally Posted by Vindi89

It sounds to me like you're placing the Uchiha on a pedestal they were never on. Consider a few facts:

1. Very few ever awoken the MS. In fact Itachi himself believed only Madara before him awakened the MS when he spared Sasuke's life during the Uchiha massacre. Obviously Itachi didn't know of Obito at the time and its obvious Madara's brother was thrown in there as an after thought.

really? even though he clearly knew shisui had MS? that's a weird fact

2. Not every Uchiha awaken's the Sharingan. But every Senju we've seen so far seems to have amazing vitality.

and vitality does what exactly? also this is a very solid fact considering you're basing it on 3 senju...

What's left to worry about against the Uchiha? Oh right Genjutsu... Chiyo already gave a sound strategy for that.. never fight a sharingan user alone. Hunter already addressed Izanagi, so not gonna go over that again.

thank you for not going over it. pointing out your fallacies is tiresome

You tend to focus on the active/flashy feats rather than the passive/ subtle ones. Consider that it was only the Uzumaki clan (Senju) who were able to become hosts and contain the Kyuubi (before he was even stripped of 1/2 his chakra). Consider that Naruto's mother actually survived the Kyuubi being separated from her (something that normally kills the host instantly).

consider that madara and obito can control the kyuubi with their sharingans...

After saying all that.. I actually agree with you, but I'm able to dismiss it as bad writing nothing more. Kish gave the Uchihas amazing illusionary powers yet he has to go out of his way to find excuses for these powers not to be used when it makes perfect sense to use them. Example? Madara could have created many clones of himself, tsukuyomi-ed the entire alliance and had a peaceful 10-tails summoning..but he didn't why? Its boring story-telling.

we dont know that madara can use tsukiyomi. also, we agree on the storytelling a bit. the senju insert is awful as Hunter points out below

Don't look for 100% rationality in a kid's manga.. you're not going to find it.

ugh this again? fine... the manga is for 3 year olds and shouldn't have any plot consistency or explanations.... you're right....

Originally Posted by Hunter

The Senju were incredibly badly implanted in the show, the author simply pulled them out of thin air 398 chapter into the story and we still don't know anything about them 122 chapter later.

its funny how we agree after all this time

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by Hunter

The Senju were incredibly badly implanted in the show, the author simply pulled them out of thin air 398 chapter into the story and we still don't know anything about them 122 chapter later.

The 123rd chapter's a charm giggity

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i think even you have lost sight of your own points if there ever were any. where do you think itachi gets that keen sight and chakra sensing ability from? could it be... the sharingan?

also if you think that a mere shuriken tech is what took edo-nagato down then you are ignoring so much that i dont want to waste my time explaining what it all is

If it was just because of the sharingan, then every Uchiha could do it. Which they couldn't.

I'm not ignoring anything. It was his Shuriken technique that took care of Nagato's all-round vision.

[ranchan13]

621's out, by the way

[Kenu]

Originally Posted by ranchan13

621's out, by the way

Yep.

They should have named this manga Hashirama instead of Naruto!

OMG what kick ass.

[vansonbee]

I can foreshadow that the 10 tails getting taken down by Naruto + Sasuke = armor 9 tails like this mini flashback were having.

Hashirama could possibly be a sage.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

Originally Posted by vansonbee

I can foreshadow that the 10 tails getting taken down by Naruto + Sasuke = armor 9 tails like this mini flashback were having.

Hashirama could possibly be a sage.

It's a flashback within a flashback! Run for your lives~!

[Apollian]

That Hashiramu Jutsu was bigger than Gedo Mazo!. there was like a Billion Hands in there. the 9 Tails looked like a little kitten in comparison to it. WOW!... just think of the size of his Chakra pool.

[Hunter]

The 621 discussion thread has been created. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

you said izanagi wasnt widespread or often used.

Yes and not only your quote doesn't say that either but you ignored the content of 90% of my previous post, the difference is quite easy to see with your own previous post and this one for example where you chose to ridiculously over quote each and every sentence with one liners that doesn't even manage to address the points I was making.
Oh well, I'll make one last attempt for actual discussion before I just drop the subject :

• One use of unenhanced Izanagi cost an eye for a few second of safety.
• Two uses per battle isn't practical because it'd leave the user defenseless anyway.
• Each time an Uchiha uses the jutsu twice he has no choice but to steal another Sharingan's eyes
• Sharingan eyes are a limited resource

That means that if it was as widespread as you claim the clan would basically be cut in half each time they all used the technique twice, even if only 10% of them used Izanagi regularly it would mean extinction within a dozen fight. As I said your interpretation is simply mathematically impossible. The Uchiha and the Senju has fought against each other for centuries, possibly millennia. According to Itachi too many people abused the jutsu in the past yes, but too many over so many years doesn't mean it was widespread and used often. Particularly when the chosen remedy (Izanami) has the same cost than the disease. An handful of bad apples would be enough to warrant the jutsu to become forbidden considering the cost.

oh... you mean "rewrite history"

No, rewriting history would mean the ability to erase on a small scale all events that happened in the past to a previous point in time and not just the state of your body. Rewriting history would mean Tobi making it so that Konan's ocean of explosive paper didn't explode yet, it would mean that Danzou could make it so Sasuke didn't use Susanoo to attack or defend himself. This would be an incredibly more powerful ability although still limited by the drastic time limit.

this is a funny point since it was a powerful uchiha using MS who beat danzo...

You're once again missing the point (and anyway you're wrong the point of their last showdown was just the opposite : a weak Genjutsu used just at the right time beating a powerful Doujutsu) MS Sasuke isn't and wasn't godlike and neither was Danzou with super Izanagi spam.

it does. you forget what you wrote. you made a point of saying that tobirama and tsunade are 'kage level' and i am saying that 'kage level' doesn't amount to much when facing MS.
nope. never said regular. i specifically used the word 'stellar'. if you like i can say elite or any other synonym. its all been reduced to semantics at this point right?

I'm afraid you're projecting your own failing : what started our entire argument was how could the Senju clan as a whole fare against the Uchiha clan as a whole. Not just the uber powerful against one another but the regular clansmen.
Each time you use Sasuke and Itachi or the MS you fail your own argument, those aren't the norm, they don't represent the usual effectiveness of their clan. It's like saying that since Tobirama nearly made Orochimaru soil himself after he moved a finger is indicative of the power of all Senju. It is not.
This isn't semantic, it is the very basis of our entire argument, if you shift your gear to focus the elite members of both clans then Tobirama alone appears to be better than 99.999999% of all Uchiha who have ever lived.

i was answering your point about sage mode equaling MS

I've not made this point, read what I said again. I was exemplifying the two different types of power up. And your answer is still a nonsense. Itachi faring better than Naruto is a testament to Itachi's skills. Just as Bee making a fool of Sasuke was a testament of Bee's prowess and not of the fact that Jinchuuriki are superior to MS users in general.

its funny how we agree after all this time

Well, I feel more like a broken record than a broken clock.