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Old 2013-03-07, 00:44   Link #581
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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I think Rand Paul would be more effective if he had the rest of the Republican party promise that THEY would never target US citizens with drones on American soil.

That would be a policy difference.

But I doubt Rand would be able to get that promise out of his own party.
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Old 2013-03-07, 00:52   Link #582
mangamuscle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Switzerland
Reaaly?

- In 2005 over 10% of Switzerland's households contained handguns, compared to 18% of U.S. households that contained handguns. In 2005 almost 29% of households in Switzerland contained firearms of some kind, compared to almost 43% in the USA.

If you give it a check I think you will label said country as liberal due to its gun laws.
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Old 2013-03-07, 00:53   Link #583
Vexx
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I'm rather happy my senator (Wyden - Democrat) supported a lot of the points Rand was making.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...er=rss&emc=rss

The only problem I have with Rand's filibuster is that if we had a Republican administration? This would have sailed through without a whisper. 2000-2008 gave us some of the most egregious laws and policies on the books relating to citizen privacy, treatment of prisoners, detainment without cause, and other chainsaw attacks on civil liberties.
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Old 2013-03-07, 04:33   Link #584
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm rather happy my senator (Wyden - Democrat) supported a lot of the points Rand was making.

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2...er=rss&emc=rss

The only problem I have with Rand's filibuster is that if we had a Republican administration? This would have sailed through without a whisper. 2000-2008 gave us some of the most egregious laws and policies on the books relating to citizen privacy, treatment of prisoners, detainment without cause, and other chainsaw attacks on civil liberties.
I truly, strongly, wish that the GOP can see the opportunity to earn points by promising they would NEVER do it themselves, and oppose the use of drones that way in an united front. Benghazi should not have been what they pounce on, THIS should be.

Why haven't they? Why aren't Fox news parading GOP politicians with each declaring they would never allow it in a GOP presidency?

Why only Rand Paul? Who isn't mainstream and is not considered the face of the GOP?

I know the answer, sadly. And that is they are not opposed to it, they just want a Republican president to be the one giving orders.
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Old 2013-03-07, 04:57   Link #585
Mentar
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Lord knows that I'm not the typical GOP defender, and I do agree that under a President Romney, Paul would most likely have not filibustered, but still... I think most of the blame lies with Obama here. Sorry that I have to say so. Let's not deflect this justified criticism on the GOP here.

This is the aspect of the Obama administration that I'm seriously disgusted with:

o Total amnesty for torture and any other war crime investigations
o Merciless persecution (not mere prosecution) of whistleblowers concerning war crimes, particularly towards Manning
o Warrantless targeted assassination of people with no regard for "collateral damage"

Seriously, when Holder gave the response that the American president could kill Americans on Americans soil via drone attack, I was laughing incredulously. It demonstrates how far the "war on terror" has already polluted the mind of America. Due process? Not anymore. One line of defense after the other is falling before the folly of the "unitary executive" theory. Then again, already around half of Americans now openly support torture, too.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither and will lose both", to quote Ben Franklin.

What more is there to be said?
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Old 2013-03-07, 05:11   Link #586
Vexx
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What was the line in the past? "Mistakes were made."

No matter who is at the wheel - you *WANT* due process. The instant someone is claiming there isn't time - that's when you *WANT* due process.

This is utter bullshit and it seems to be infecting factions in both parties.
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Old 2013-03-07, 05:14   Link #587
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Obama's security record is indeed one of the major contentions between him and his left-wing "base" (not that's he's actually left-wing, but that's another story).

The failure to close Guantanamo stands out as the biggest breach of promise in his Presidency after his 2008 election campaign. Some would defend the President as having other legislative battles to fight and therefore little "credit" to put towards trying to go against the consensus of the powerful Washington foreign policy establishment and its many Congressional allies. On the other hand, the President barely even tried to fight, not to mention his conviction on this issue is in doubt in the first place, and most of all it doesn't change the fact that the government of the United States did not return an inch of ground it took since the betrayal that was the Patriot Act. The mighty United States, I am "happy" to say, remains as self-absorbed and "pragmatic" as ever, and Obama is not the man to challenge the "wisdom" of the Washington policy mainstream, which views certain civil rights as inconveniences to be maneuvered around for the purpose of power policy goals.

It's an incestuous atmosphere up there, I'm told, with "smart" people talking with other "smart" people about "real politics" (yes, realpolitik) and geopolitical games and tools of murder, torture, and terror are just "measures" to be employed against opposing forces, while the matter of the domestic front is just a "public opinion field" to be managed and placated. The all-encompassing, all-important principles of human rights are forgotten somewhere along the way.

As for Rand Paul's filibuster, Senator Paul's stand here is a position I agree with, and it has drawn GOP support -- but don't kid ourselves, many of them are just playing anti-Obama politics, and would support the very same measure in a heartbeat if it was proposed by them or by a President wearing elephant trunks. But, GOP opportunism aside, Mr. Paul's own integrity will of course remain a question that only he can answer by his future record -- and I hope for a favorable one. His other positions are classic far-right Tea Party GOP though, so don't expect a statesman out of the son of Ron Paul.
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Old 2013-03-07, 05:23   Link #588
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Don't forget the unwarranted series of drone strikes, including a US citizen who's wanted for terrorism. Instead of due process, he was outright killed.
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Old 2013-03-07, 06:40   Link #589
Sackett
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I don't even get why Holder said what he did. The drone programs are run by either the CIA or the Military. The rules are pretty clear:

1: The CIA is explicitly forbidden from taking action inside America
2: The military cannot be used inside America except in cases of invasion or open insurrection

If Holder had said that who would object? And in what other cases besides insurrection or invasion would it be necessary to use a drone firing a Hellfire missile inside the US?

Finally, I don't feel that "Bush would have been worse" is a legitimate means of defending Obama anymore. It's been over 4 years now. Can't Obama stand on his own without blaming Bush for everything?
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Old 2013-03-07, 06:47   Link #590
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
Finally, I don't feel that "Bush would have been worse" is a legitimate means of defending Obama anymore. It's been over 4 years now. Can't Obama stand on his own without blaming Bush for everything?
It's not about Bush. It's that we have no reason to believe the Republican party actually mind the killing of Americans without trial via drones in US soil.

Rand Paul stuck his neck out, but Fox News has not done their "thing" in having major Republicans declaring they themselves would never support it under a GOP presidency.

It's not what Bush would do, but what the GOP would do if they are in charge today or in the future. We all know GOP believe in big government when it comes to the art of war, and they need to declare their positions before I can believe they are actually against the drone program as it currently stands.

In short, we are not defending Obama at all. We are just waiting for the GOP to suggest they would do it differently. We are still waiting.
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Old 2013-03-07, 10:36   Link #591
james0246
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As an aside, please drop the Gun Control issue in this thread unless it has something to do with actual politicians or specific bills in Congress being discussed. Focus on politics, not debates concerning gun deaths.
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Old 2013-03-07, 11:58   Link #592
ganbaru
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House votes to avert shutdown as Obama looks for big deal
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...y.html?hpid=z1
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Old 2013-03-07, 19:29   Link #593
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Some might be aware that the president bought dinner for 12 Republicans. You might be wondering why. Well, this is why.

Basically, the GOP leadership is creating an image of Obama for their rank and file, lying to them about what Obama has said and offered. It's almost unbelievable. So Obama is taking this moment to honestly talk with GOP senators, and surprising them with what he is actually willing to put on the table. Trying to close the gap between the fake GOP Obama, and the real one. An example:


Would it matter, one reporter asked the veteran legislator, if the president were to put chained-CPI — a policy that reconfigures the way the government measures inflation and thus slows the growth of Social Security benefits — on the table?

“Absolutely,” the legislator said. “That’s serious.”

Another reporter jumped in. “But it is on the table! They tell us three times a day that they want to do chained-CPI.”

“Who wants to do it?” said the legislator.

“The president,” replied the reporter.

“I’d love to see it,” laughed the legislator.
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Old 2013-03-07, 19:53   Link #594
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I don't follow politics too much, because my personal opinion is that it's been reduced to two sides pointing fingers at each other and can't work together to get anything done (insert the joke of "if con is the opposite of pro, then is Congress the opposite of Progress?")

But something that I'm noticing with all the Republican attacks against Obama and their recent measures in subjects that concern women... is it just me, or are they trying to turn back the clock to pre- Roe vs. Wade, or hell, even before Womens' Suffrage? Hell, my pessimism has even gone so far as to entertain the thought that they're trying to do things that would suggest America becomes something like a Dictatorship... or rather, to describe my opinion on this since I don't know the actual term, a society in which the Republicans alone determine everything that happens in the country, and if you're against it, you're wrong and "un-American" (well, maybe not quite that far)

Or is that just politics as usual?
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Old 2013-03-07, 19:56   Link #595
Kyuu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
House votes to avert shutdown as Obama looks for big deal
http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...y.html?hpid=z1
There's no such thing as a "big deal" anymore. They're nothing more than temporary tit-for-tat deals. Within a year, the same fight will happen again.'

Quote:
Originally Posted by Magin View Post
But something that I'm noticing with all the Republican attacks against Obama and their recent measures in subjects that concern women... is it just me, or are they trying to turn back the clock to pre- Roe vs. Wade, or hell, even before Womens' Suffrage?
In their minds, they look back to the good old days of the "traditional America", whatever that is. If I were to guess, it's a white dominated society, that keeps the minorities down in its place.
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Old 2013-03-07, 19:58   Link #596
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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The GOP isn't against women exactly. They are just punishing women for voting Democrat. This means even more women end up voting democrat, but that's their logic anyway.
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Old 2013-03-07, 22:05   Link #597
Vexx
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It isn't the GOP specifically as such... but the GOP has a large faction of "conservative zealots" who believe things most of the rest of us call *misogyny* or hold women as lesser human beings or mere cattle.
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Old 2013-03-07, 22:29   Link #598
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To be more precise... it is just that the GOP draws strength from religious conservatives, who have a strong feeling of "the man is the ruler of the home and the woman is subject to them." Men are simply more important, and should be in charge. That is why Viagra should be free to men, and yet women should not have access to birth control.

And a lot of it is inertia. Once an organization gets going, they have a hard time changing course. Very few are willing to speak out against the status quo. And in this climate of Tea Partiers and ultra-conservatives punishing any "Republican In Name Only" by voting them out, this keeps the reps and senators in line, mostly.

You really have the fringe religious nutballs holding the party hostage.
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Old 2013-03-07, 23:13   Link #599
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Of course, my next question is this: at what point did this really become an issue?

My memory when it comes to politics isn't the best, but IIRC, this issue seems to have only really gained momentum within the last 2~3 years... I assume it was always there, but has it actually come to light because now the US isn't concentrating on the war in Irag, and thus can turn its attention to internal matters?
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Old 2013-03-08, 06:35   Link #600
Kyuu
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Quote:
For years, the Obama administration has been pummeled for failing to bring criminal charges against a single major Wall Street bank or a single leading Wall Street banker for what the FBI termed an "epidemic of fraud" that blew up the entire economy.
Quote:
Yesterday Attorney General Eric Holder stated openly what was already apparent: The Justice Department believes that Too Big to Fail Banks are Too Big to Jail. Criminal indictments against banks or leading bankers might endanger the economy and thus were too big a risk.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert...?utm_hp_ref=tw

Of all the issues to contend with in this country, this one is by far the biggest one to tackle. Everything else (abortion, gun regulation, etc.) are side issues, in comparison. And good luck trying.

For reiteration:

Quote:
The Justice Department believes that Too Big to Fail Banks are Too Big to Jail
That's the staunch truth to the whole matter. Quite frankly, it's also unacceptable.

Quote:
But the Attorney General is merely acknowledging the fact: big banks now operate above the law. And as the conservative head of the Dallas Federal Reserve Bank Richard Fischer and many others have argued, the big banks are not disciplined by the market.
Sadly, it IS bad policy to simply let the banks crash -- hence the bail outs. Otherwise, everything will fall like a house of cards, and we (the middle class) will be right at the bottom of it -- ready to catch it all.

Quote:
Clearly, institutions that are above the law and beyond the discipline of the market cannot exist in their current form. Congress has only two choices. The big banks can be nationalized and treated as public utilities. The public would pocket their profits and cover their losses. Or the big banks can be broken up, and be accountable to both the law and the market.
Either action will do. Just do it.
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