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Old 2013-02-19, 16:09   Link #81
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DonQuigleone View Post
It's not just America, it happens everywhere.
Pretty much, immigrants are usually among the first things that gets used as scapegoats whenever things aren't going well, in just about every country.
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Old 2013-02-19, 16:42   Link #82
Kudryavka
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Pretty much, immigrants are usually among the first things that gets used as scapegoats whenever things aren't going well, in just about every country.
Sad but true, especially when afaik immigrants pay taxes. Even many illegals pay taxes, but it has a special name. It's a matter of "us" and "them".

If someone pay taxes to a country then they should have every right to be accepted as a contributing member! Every taxpayer should at least get a green card (permanent resident?).
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Old 2013-02-19, 22:34   Link #83
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Unless they're paid in cash, illegal immigrants have taxes deducted from every pay check. It is just that the actual owner of the Social Security Number gets credit for the withholding taxes rather than the illegal worker. They also pay sales tax and they indirectly pay property taxes when they pay rent.
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Old 2013-02-19, 23:39   Link #84
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But there is also a special tax which illegals can file just like when citizens pay yearly taxes.
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Old 2013-02-20, 08:26   Link #85
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
If someone pay taxes to a country then they should have every right to be accepted as a contributing member! Every taxpayer should at least get a green card (permanent resident?).
So someone could slip across the border, live here for a month or two, show that they paid taxes from activities associated with simply living here, and then get citizenship? That would be quite a slap in the face for people who played by the rules and immigrated here legally. That is not a fast or painless process.
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Old 2013-02-20, 08:30   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
So someone could slip across the border, live here for a month or two, show that they paid taxes from activities associated with simply living here, and then get citizenship? That would be quite a slap in the face for people who played by the rules and immigrated here legally. That is not a fast or painless process.
No, I specifically did not say citizenship. I agree that giving citizenship so easily would be detrimental. That's why I said they should get something akin to permanent residency status, if the illegals stay that long (way longer than a month or two).

You don't have to be a citizen to legally be here. That is a myth (and I'm not saying you necessarily are guilty of believing it, your post just reminded me). So many times I've heard arguments for allowing illegals amount to "well it's really hard to become a citizen so they should be allowed to stay here illegally". :?

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2013-02-20 at 08:50.
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Old 2013-02-20, 08:45   Link #87
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
So someone could slip across the border, live here for a month or two, show that they paid taxes from activities associated with simply living here, and then get citizenship? That would be quite a slap in the face for people who played by the rules and immigrated here legally. That is not a fast or painless process.
You think slipping across the border is fast or painless?

What kind of fantasy journey do you think those people take anyway?
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Old 2013-02-20, 09:20   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
No, I specifically did not say citizenship. I agree that giving citizenship so easily would be detrimental. That's why I said they should get something akin to permanent residency status, if the illegals stay that long (way longer than a month or two).

You don't have to be a citizen to legally be here. That is a myth (and I'm not saying you necessarily are guilty of believing it, your post just reminded me). So many times I've heard arguments for allowing illegals amount to "well it's really hard to become a citizen so they should be allowed to stay here illegally". :?
Visas - the way that non-citizens can remain here legally - are pretty restrictive. It creates a push so that people do some work here and then return to their home country, or go for citizenship, both courses of which have a purpose. If you allow people to stay here indefinitely as a non-citizen, what's the benefit of going through the process to become a citizen? The right to vote? Half of the population doesn't make use of that as it is.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You think slipping across the border is fast or painless?
Some people risk their lives to get here illegally. Should we should have more sympathy for those who illegally crossed the borders than those who went through all of the legal requirements to stay here? People hear stories about human smuggling over the Mexican border, or about Cubans who drown while attempting to cross into Florida, and they're impressed with those stories. Anyone who has read two or three stories like that has some idea of what's behind some forms of illegally crossing the border.

But who is aware of the process behind immigrating legally, and that can be involved in trying to attain citizenship or permanent resident status? Many think that you can just come over, get some working papers, wait a few short years, and then - ta da! - you're in. I would not be surprised if it works that way for some people, but that's not what I've seen. There are struggles and risks taken all around, legal or illegal. The former tend to be forgotten when we talk about and sympathize with illegal immigrants.
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Old 2013-02-20, 11:34   Link #89
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
But who is aware of the process behind immigrating legally, and that can be involved in trying to attain citizenship or permanent resident status? Many think that you can just come over, get some working papers, wait a few short years, and then - ta da! - you're in. I would not be surprised if it works that way for some people, but that's not what I've seen. There are struggles and risks taken all around, legal or illegal. The former tend to be forgotten when we talk about and sympathize with illegal immigrants.
Indeed. My parents spent literally decades, and no small sums of money in legal fees, before they finally cleared all the hold ups and delays (let's just say the INS still has a long way to go) and got their citizenship. But since they didn't cross any rivers or tunnels to get here, nobody cares about the problems they had.
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Old 2013-02-20, 11:49   Link #90
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Indeed. My parents spent literally decades, and no small sums of money in legal fees, before they finally cleared all the hold ups and delays (let's just say the INS still has a long way to go) and got their citizenship. But since they didn't cross any rivers or tunnels to get here, nobody cares about the problems they had.
They also survived the ordeal. That sort of makes them a lesser worry compared to people who drowned or died of dehydration.

People try to cross the border illegally not because it is EASY. They do it because there is no other way. Not everyone had the means to get the paperwork or payments. So they risk their lives.

At any stage did your parents risked their lives as a part of the bureaucratic process?

I am speaking as an immigrant who's parents also worked hard to get me a citizenship in Australia. They did so by essentially paying the Australian government. So it's not that I don't know what you are on about. But claiming illegal boarder crossing is EASY is still wrong.
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Old 2013-02-20, 13:25   Link #91
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
So someone could slip across the border, live here for a month or two, show that they paid taxes from activities associated with simply living here, and then get citizenship? That would be quite a slap in the face for people who played by the rules and immigrated here legally. That is not a fast or painless process.
Ahem:

"No Taxation Without Representation".
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Old 2013-02-20, 14:06   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
They also survived the ordeal. That sort of makes them a lesser worry compared to people who drowned or died of dehydration.

People try to cross the border illegally not because it is EASY. They do it because there is no other way. Not everyone had the means to get the paperwork or payments. So they risk their lives.

At any stage did your parents risked their lives as a part of the bureaucratic process?

I am speaking as an immigrant who's parents also worked hard to get me a citizenship in Australia. They did so by essentially paying the Australian government. So it's not that I don't know what you are on about. But claiming illegal boarder crossing is EASY is still wrong.
Sad but true. There is no better option for these people, why else would they risk their lives to come here? For example, people who come here through Mexico have to climb barbed fences and survive a trek through deserts, most notably the Arizona desert. There have been and will be more deaths there; there are even still human bones out there as I type.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Visas - the way that non-citizens can remain here legally - are pretty restrictive. It creates a push so that people do some work here and then return to their home country, or go for citizenship, both courses of which have a purpose. If you allow people to stay here indefinitely as a non-citizen, what's the benefit of going through the process to become a citizen? The right to vote? Half of the population doesn't make use of that as it is.
You don't have to respond to that push. And you're right, there isn't much benefit to being a citizen rather than a permanent resident. So there's even less reason to go through the process of getting naturalized if you're already here legally, unless you want that really cool Citizen Certificate with the gold stamp.

afaik the government doesn't care about making permanent residents into citizens. It just cares about making illegals not illegal, either by deportation or pushing them to get some sort of legal status here.
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Old 2013-02-20, 14:14   Link #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
If someone pay taxes to a country then they should have every right to be accepted as a contributing member! Every taxpayer should at least get a green card (permanent resident?).
I would agree with the later. Maybe.

I cannot condone illegal immigration because you really need to respect the laws of the land but I also wouldn't think of them l as dirty parasites since they do pay taxes and obviously won't be using the equal share of public resources due to umm... being illegal. Though I'd imagine they'd contribute a lot more then the real parasites of the country. You know, those people up there using illegals and branding them as scapegoats while they jump through tax loopholes the size of a small town. Yes, keep blaming welfare, illegals, and the lazy, while ignoring them!
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Old 2013-02-20, 14:40   Link #94
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I would agree with the later. Maybe.

I cannot condone illegal immigration because you really need to respect the laws of the land but I also wouldn't think of them l as dirty parasites since they do pay taxes and obviously won't be using the equal share of public resources due to umm... being illegal. Though I'd imagine they'd contribute a lot more then the real parasites of the country. You know, those people up there using illegals and branding them as scapegoats while they jump through tax loopholes the size of a small town. Yes, keep blaming welfare, illegals, and the lazy, while ignoring them!
Yup. Fun fact: if the United States waved a magic wand right now that deported all illegals and prevented any more from coming in, the price of fruits and vegetables would skyrocket. And the amount of them would probably decrease as well.

I don't like the idea of illegal immigrants at first, but I would not complain just because they are illegal, especially since many of them are willing to contribute if it means they can be accepted. The only time when I complain is when some illegal immigrants have protests about how they should have all the rights of citizens, but they don't want to get green cards or take even one step forward in becoming a legal resident. It's highly disrespectful to citizens (especially naturalized ones), and it also rides on the myth that you must be a citizen to legally be in the United States. Wrong and a slap in the face. If you want the club benefits, join the club, or at least show that you really, really want to join. Don't stand outside it yelling that you want in, but you don't want to even fill out the paperwork.
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Old 2013-02-20, 14:45   Link #95
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Originally Posted by Kudryavka View Post
Yup. Fun fact: if the United States waved a magic wand right now that deported all illegals and prevented any more from coming in, the price of fruits and vegetables would skyrocket. And the amount of them would probably decrease as well.
Consider this.

If we provide incentive for illegals to account for their actions and pay their dues, and give them a chance to properly go through the proper process, there would be more effect. Say make it punishable but through fines and unpaid back taxes.

If you threaten to deport them, then why the hell would they even think of cooperating with you? It should be made it so that they're better off staying put and working off to accede to our demands rather than just going off with the hammer. It's the same reason why we don't throw people in jail for jaywalking. Laws need to be enforced, but the action taken must be sensible and humane.

Well, I guess we could also spend a few more billion down the drain to safeguard some documents for border patrols and enforcement officials to go on a witch hunt. Or punish children for the sins of their parents. That will be swell.

I believe in this kind of method for many of the highly and overly condemned illegal nonviolent behavior such as drug usage and prostitution that we should instead use it for economic benefit and softly discourage certain behaviors.
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Old 2013-02-20, 14:52   Link #96
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Consider this.

If we provide incentive for illegals to account for their actions and pay their dues, and give them a chance to properly go through the proper process, there would be more effect. Say make it punishable but through fines and unpaid back taxes.

If you threaten to deport them, then why the hell would they even think of cooperating with you? It should be made it so that they're better off staying put and working off to accede to our demands rather than just going off with the hammer. It's the same reason why we don't throw people in jail for jaywalking. Laws need to be enforced, but the action taken must be sensible and humane.

Well, I guess we could also spend a few more billion down the drain to safeguard some documents for border patrols and enforcement officials to go on a witch hunt. Or punish children for the sins of their parents. That will be swell.

I believe in this kind of method for many of the highly and overly condemned illegal nonviolent behavior such as drug usage and prostitution that we should instead use it for economic benefit and softly discourage certain behaviors.
And God knows immigrants give us all economic benefit.

An ugly truth that I hope all anti-illegal immigration people know.
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Old 2013-02-20, 15:41   Link #97
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
People try to cross the border illegally not because it is EASY. They do it because there is no other way. Not everyone had the means to get the paperwork or payments. So they risk their lives.
You're inferring that I have implied that getting across the border is easy. I can see how you would reach that conclusion given what I wrote, but I didn't say anywhere that it was easy. For some people it's easier than others - not everyone is hopping over fences and running across a desert - but I think we all know the risks involved. But I'll say again, that's all very flashy and attention-grabbing, but the ordeal of the process that legal immigrants must go through should not be forgotten or downplayed.

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I am speaking as an immigrant who's parents also worked hard to get me a citizenship in Australia. They did so by essentially paying the Australian government. So it's not that I don't know what you are on about. But claiming illegal boarder crossing is EASY is still wrong.
I don't know what the immigration process is like in Australia, so I can't remark on it. However, I will say that in America it isn't always as simple as paying the government. There are a number of very interesting terms that can be thrown in depending on the visa type.

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I cannot condone illegal immigration because you really need to respect the laws of the land but I also wouldn't think of them l as dirty parasites since they do pay taxes and obviously won't be using the equal share of public resources due to umm... being illegal.
During my time in Los Angeles we had a number of hospitals shut down due to hemorrhaging money from their emergency department. There are generally two groups of people who make heavy usage of emergency departments and who result in monetary loss for the hospitals: the uninsured (usually the poor), and illegal immigrants. It was recognized that both groups contributed. It's not the illegal immigrants' fault that they were in that circumstance, exactly: because they are undocumented, their employers did not grant them benefits, and for all I know they were also being paid below minimum wage. Businesses certainly abuse legal immigrants who are here on visas; I have no reason to believe that illegal immigrants aren't getting it worse. As a result, when they need medical care (as everyone will at some point in their lives), the hospital (that is, all of us) covers it.

The new law mandating that everyone have health insurance should help with the emergency department abuse problem in general. However, undocumented immigrants - being undocumented - may still evade it.

I don't feel that illegal immigrants are "parasites," but I resent that they got around the legal process. Sure, they're not living securely or equally as a legal immigrant does, and they took their own risks going by their own process. The rules are what they are; we can talk about changing them, but they should apply to everyone.
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Old 2013-02-20, 15:49   Link #98
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The thing about laws, is that they can be changed. And if changing the laws would benefit the country, then there is no harm altering them.

There is no reason why just because someone is illegal now, doesn't mean they can't become legal if the chips fall in place. This isn't really as much about following the law as to change the laws to suit the circumstances. The government has the ability to alter laws in a way that benefits the country. And that's really the thing. To obey existing laws to the letter would be undesirable. The reason the law breaking are tolerated was because society decided current rules are stupid and turned a blind eye. Laws exist to serve the country, and the people in it.
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Old 2013-02-20, 15:52   Link #99
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The thing about laws, is that they can be changed. And if changing the laws would benefit the country, then there is no harm altering them.

There is no reason why just because someone is illegal now, doesn't mean they can't become legal if the chips fall in place.
Certainly. But do you know why America (and most other countries) have these immigration laws and processes?

Out of curiosity, does Australia receive a lot of illegal immigrants?
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Old 2013-02-20, 15:55   Link #100
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During my time in Los Angeles we had a number of hospitals shut down due to hemorrhaging money from their emergency department. There are generally two groups of people who make heavy usage of emergency departments and who result in monetary loss for the hospitals: the uninsured (usually the poor), and illegal immigrants. It was recognized that both groups contributed. It's not the illegal immigrants' fault that they were in that circumstance, exactly: because they are undocumented, their employers did not grant them benefits, and for all I know they were also being paid below minimum wage. Businesses certainly abuse legal immigrants who are here on visas; I have no reason to believe that illegal immigrants aren't getting it worse. As a result, when they need medical care (as everyone will at some point in their lives), the hospital (that is, all of us) covers it.

The new law mandating that everyone have health insurance should help with the emergency department abuse problem in general. However, undocumented immigrants - being undocumented - may still evade it.
But illegals are withheld income, some of it are used to fund these faculties. I don't see a problem with them using a service that they also paid for. As for the employers not giving them benefits, well those are the ones breaking the law and need to stop doing it. Enforce it there.

In any case, this is but one factor, others being the state being terribly broke and the fact that our health care system is run in a way to deny the poor care or have them cost life and limb just to stay alive. I feel that they are being singled out.

Quote:
I don't feel that illegal immigrants are "parasites," but I resent that they got around the legal process. Sure, they're not living securely or equally as a legal immigrant does, and they took their own risks going by their own process. The rules are what they are; we can talk about changing them, but they should apply to everyone.
Oh they should. I just don't think all that massive effort and resources should be spent on a witch hunt, build a massively ugly wall across our landscape, or to orphan/deport children that were born here and thus citizens just because they had parents that committed crimes. The later is critical if we want to bring up the concept of personal responsibility.

Rules should apply, but enforcement needs to be done with sense.

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Laws exist to serve the country, and the people in it.
Well, we finally see something eye to eye.
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