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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 19 Rating
Perfect 10 15 30.00%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 21 42.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 14.00%
7 out of 10 : Good 6 12.00%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 2.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 50. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-04, 22:21   Link #141
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
So far the Sibyl System has been presented as a logical system. It does administer justice rather effectively and it catches criminals. If the system is just filled with a bunch of sociopaths like Touma, this would seem contradictory to this very notion. Maybe it is, and if it is, Gen made a blunder here in my opinion. Yet, there is still no direct and explicit proof that the system is like that..
Here's what the visual imagery tells us about the Sibyl System:


Ghoulish & Murderous


Inhuman & Lack of Individuality


Manipulative & Ruthless

Without even looking at the rest of the show, the imagery heavily suggests that the Sibyl System is supposed to be view as a sociopathic entity. I don't have any idea why you think that we need any sort of definitive proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Subplot 1 - "The Sibyl story". The 1984, Brave New World, Soylent Green, etc... side of the story. The story about a dystopia that looks like an utopia. What social commentary can be gleaned from this? What themes can be taken from this?

Subplot 2 - Kougami vs. Makishima, the passionate feud and battle.
The Makishima part of the story would work a lot better if he hasn't already been beaten. But Akane conked him on the head, and that's effectively the end of him as any sort of significant threat. The only thing left for him is to use philosophical rhetoric, but even there, Kagari's response to Choe Gu-Sung effectively counters anything he has left to say.
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Old 2013-03-04, 22:35   Link #142
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The Makishima part of the story would work a lot better if he hasn't already been beaten. But Akane conked him on the head, and that's effectively the end of him as any sort of significant threat. The only thing left for him is to use philosophical rhetoric, but even there, Kagari's response to Choe Gu-Sung effectively counters anything he has left to say.
Well...I don't think that can be true. Makishima is almost certainly trying to bring the Sybil system down by destroying the food system of Japan. If it works, it's a good choice of plan for him, and it represents both a huge danger to Sybil and to Japan as a whole. Heck, one main reason that people are criticising Sybil and calling them idiotic is because they let someone as dangerous to them as Makishima walk free. OK, he was defeated once before, but at that time, the Akane vs Makishima conflict was resolved, at least for now. The conflict with Kougami remains, because Kougami was defeated on that occasion.

We'll be facing at least two further conflicts: Kougami vs Makishima, and Akane vs Kougami. It's foreshadowed pretty clearly in the OP and in things like Kougami's letter. Akane will surely have to make and pass some sort of judgement on Kougami, whether for better or for worse.
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Old 2013-03-04, 22:44   Link #143
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Without even looking at the rest of the show, the imagery heavily suggests that the Sibyl System is supposed to be view as a sociopathic entity. I don't have any idea why you think that we need any sort of definitive proof.
What have been the main flaws of the Sibyl system? People like Makishima? Very few of them exist. No, Makishima this entire time has been railing against the idea of Sibyl stripping people of free will. The system has not done a terrible job at keeping a peaceful society, in fact it has done a better job than ours.

Would a sociopathic system be able to achieve this? I find that rather dubious. Your imagery just distracts from this. It's not proof.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Psycho-Pass basically has two major subplots that combine together to form the plot of the show.

Subplot 1 - "The Sibyl story". The 1984, Brave New World, Soylent Green, etc... side of the story. The story about a dystopia that looks like an utopia. What social commentary can be gleaned from this? What themes can be taken from this?

Subplot 2 - Kougami vs. Makishima, the passionate feud and battle.


Up until recently, I think that Psycho-Pass did a good job of weaving these two subplots together into a nice, coherent whole. But Ko's all-encompassing desire for revenge on Makishima, and the story now focusing a lot on that, has started to distract a bit from the larger Sibyl story.
I think the key here is that effectively the story has always been through the eyes of small people. They are cops who are there to arrest criminals. Kogami essentially is just becoming a bad cop and trying to make an arrest in an illegal way. While they have wrestled a bit with questions about Sibyl, the people at the Public Safety Bureau are not there to defend or bring down the system. They are there to ensure that citizens in society are safe from criminals. Makishima is the one with higher goals, not them. The "good guys" are chasing Makishima here simply because he's a murderer. The rivalry between Kogami and Makishima is not one of philosophy. Kogami has just formed an obsession around Makishima and wants to bring him to justice.

The feud has always just been a game to Makishima. Kogami is not all that important to his goals surrounding Sibyl, and Kogami doesn't care that much about Sibyl. In some ways, their feud has never had anything to do with the questions surrounding Sibyl. It's fine to think that these subplots seem disconnected, but I wouldn't act like they ever were to begin with.
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Old 2013-03-04, 23:06   Link #144
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post


The Makishima part of the story would work a lot better if he hasn't already been beaten. But Akane conked him on the head, and that's effectively the end of him as any sort of significant threat. The only thing left for him is to use philosophical rhetoric, but even there, Kagari's response to Choe Gu-Sung effectively counters anything he has left to say.
This is probably the comic book fan in me speaking, but I don't think that a lone defeat ruins an antagonist/villain for good.

I'll grant you that it can cause "diminishing returns". If an antagonist/villain loses too often, then yes, he or she becomes a bit of a joke. But there's no real chance of that happening with Makishima... since if he "loses" again, it'll almost certainly mean his death.

Also, keep in mind that while Makishima "lost" to Akane and Kougami, it took both of them to do it, and something of a sneak attack at that. Also keep in mind that Makishima has had quite a few "small victories" in this show.

There's no question that Makishima is a very dangerous and very competent antagonist.
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Old 2013-03-05, 02:37   Link #145
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I still find it quite odd that people view Makishima as a rule, rather than an exception. Am I really THAT weird for thinking that argument makes no sense?

I also find it odd that whenever I say things like "Society has actually been peaceful before Makshima showed up" that people immediately assume I am some big proponent for an oppressive society.

Have a sense of scale here.
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Old 2013-03-05, 02:58   Link #146
Reckoner
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I still find it quite odd that people view Makishima as a rule, rather than an exception. Am I really THAT weird for thinking that argument makes no sense?

I also find it odd that whenever I say things like "Society has actually been peaceful before Makshima showed up" that people immediately assume I am some big proponent for an oppressive society.

Have a sense of scale here.
I totally agree with you, and I have also been equally dismayed .
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Old 2013-03-05, 04:30   Link #147
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When "peaceful" means "people are dragged off the streets for permanent incarceration or vaporised on the spot at random", yes, I question your definition of peaceful.

You know what's the most peaceful city in the world? One where there is nobody living in it. Peace is not the end, but the means. Peace is suppose to bring safety and tranquillity to the lives of ordinary citizens. If you live in constant fear, you are NOT living "in peace" no matter how low the official crime rate is.

Makshima is not some unique case. He is just a random serial killer. It is like saying "this house is safe from Earthquakes unless you actually get an Earthquake".

If your society can't handle Makishima, you don't HAVE a peaceful society. The same way your house is not earthquake proof unless it actually survives an earthquake. A society is not judged by the best case scenario, but the worst case scenario. In a world where everything is pink unicorns and bunnies, any government can be run peacefully. But a functional government can STILL maintain a peaceful society while under the threat of a serial killer.

Sybil can't handle a serial killer. That's evidence that it doesn't work.

You say "it works as long as we get rid of Makishima". I say "if you can't get rid of Makishima then it isn't WORKING". You ARE justifying an oppressive society. By saying it is fine as long as you kill the right people.
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Old 2013-03-05, 08:43   Link #148
4Tran
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Reckoner, are you disputing the claim that the visual imagery is clear in portraying the Sibyl System as both villainous and sociopathic?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
What have been the main flaws of the Sibyl system? People like Makishima? Very few of them exist. No, Makishima this entire time has been railing against the idea of Sibyl stripping people of free will. The system has not done a terrible job at keeping a peaceful society, in fact it has done a better job than ours.
The flaws of the Sibyl System have been shown in every single episode. Even if we exclude Makishima (and I don't count him all that highly), there are still tons of problems from fragility to the human cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Would a sociopathic system be able to achieve this? I find that rather dubious. Your imagery just distracts from this. It's not proof.
The point of the show is that the Sibyl System did achieve peace (for a given value of peace) while being simultaneously sociopathic. Personally, I think that the historical evidence shows that there are many ways of producing peaceful societies; some much crueler than others.

If you feel that it fails the believability test, then you can take it up with the show's creators. After all, they've taken great pains to paint the Sibyl System as something awful.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I think the key here is that effectively the story has always been through the eyes of small people. They are cops who are there to arrest criminals.
The show stopped being just about small people as soon as the chief opened fire on Kagari.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
This is probably the comic book fan in me speaking, but I don't think that a lone defeat ruins an antagonist/villain for good.
Yeah, but they're generally down for the count for the next few story arcs.

Makishima being neutered is more about the way he was defeated than the fact that he was.

1. His grand scheme failed, and pretty completely to boot.
2. It was Akane who put him flat on his back.
3. He was captured and at the mercy of his greatest foe.

While the show would like us to believe that he's some sort of existential threat, I don't find this convincing. He's been reduced to posting on 2ch for a new plan for crying out loud. And even that new plan exists only because the creators invented a new vulnerability for him to attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
I still find it quite odd that people view Makishima as a rule, rather than an exception. Am I really THAT weird for thinking that argument makes no sense?
Have people actually been making that argument?
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:37   Link #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Here's what the visual imagery tells us about the Sibyl System:


Ghoulish & Murderous


Inhuman & Lack of Individuality


Manipulative & Ruthless

Without even looking at the rest of the show, the imagery heavily suggests that the Sibyl System is supposed to be view as a sociopathic entity. I don't have any idea why you think that we need any sort of definitive proof.
Interpreting visual ques is a skill. If you're not good at it, then visual imagery designed to elicit a particular response will often completely go over somebodies head, or they might not even register that it's there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
What have been the main flaws of the Sibyl system? People like Makishima? Very few of them exist.
That would be a reasonable argument if this wasn't a society that could be destroyed by a handful of people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
While the show would like us to believe that he's some sort of existential threat, I don't find this convincing. He's been reduced to posting on 2ch for a new plan for crying out loud. And even that new plan exists only because the creators invented a new vulnerability for him to attack.
Somebody like Makishima is only an existential threat to a weak society. Some people get annoyed at me for repeating this fact, without stopping to consider the implications for just how sick a society has to be for any individual like Makishima to be a threat to it.
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Old 2013-03-05, 11:47   Link #150
Dengar
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Have people actually been making that argument?
Ask Valiant or Rambo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
The same way your house is not earthquake proof unless it actually survives an earthquake.
Weeded out all of the nonsense and focusing on just this:

There is a logical error here. You cannot earthquake-proof a house if you don't know about the existence of earthquakes.
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Old 2013-03-05, 12:09   Link #151
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Weeded out all of the nonsense and focusing on just this:

There is a logical error here. You cannot earthquake-proof a house if you don't know about the existence of earthquakes.
You are telling me Sybil never accounted for the possibility of serial killers with no conscience?

Human society have serial killers the same way we have Earthquakes. We KNOW they exist. And we plan around these things. Sybil did not. And they are not dealing with some supervillain; just your ordinary cold-hearted killer in a society incapable of dealing with him.

And why can't they deal with him? Because Sybil doesn't work, and yet they had to pretend it still does work. Because to doubt Sybil is a crime punishable by death.
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Old 2013-03-05, 12:36   Link #152
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
You are telling me Sybil never accounted for the possibility of serial killers with no conscience?

Human society have serial killers the same way we have Earthquakes. We KNOW they exist. And we plan around these things. Sybil did not. And they are not dealing with some supervillain; just your ordinary cold-hearted killer in a society incapable of dealing with him.

And why can't they deal with him? Because Sybil doesn't work, and yet they had to pretend it still does work. Because to doubt Sybil is a crime punishable by death.
Who said anything about serial killers? Because I know I didn't. I'm not sure why you even bring this up. I'm not even sure what serial killers you're talking about, because the only serial killers I know of are either dead, or part of the system.

Makishima, while a killer, and ruthless, does not fit the serial killer description. I would like to point out, as well, that Makishima hardly did anything to harm Sibyl.

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-03-05 at 13:04.
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Old 2013-03-05, 14:50   Link #153
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Everything in the show is predicated by the Sibyl System working the way it's depicted. Change the details of the system, and the show doesn't work. For starters, there wouldn't be any Inspectors and Enforcers.
How so. The status of Enforcer is basically just "criminal in service of justice." It takes a lot of pushing and pulling to even stick Sybil in there. As an example, the Sybil system could be replaced by some "criminal coeficient at birth," some "special psychological checkup" (done by humans I mean), various factors such as what your inclinations in life are (oh you like drinking and smoking and X, high PP rating), the psycho reading techniques of the good doctor, etc, and the status of enforcer / detective would still exist.

Yes the Sybil system has some "unique" problems, but it's at best only tangent on the plot of everything else in the show. What power of interaction do most of the characters in the show have other then to (a) find it (b) stop it. If the show is about the Sybil system, then focusing on "the team" is also a waste of time; since only their missions and various system interactions are of interest in shaping Sybil within the story—otherwise it has the same problems as an "interesting rock," it's not going anywhere. And really it's not going anywhere (literally), hence why I find it hard to grasp how Sybil is meant to be what we should care for in the story.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
Sybil is the only reason serial killers are able to run rampant.
Serial killers have run rampant in other futuristic fiction just fine with out any Sybil in them. Yes it's a really strong (Ep1 to Ep10) but mostly convenient (Ep11 to now) point of contention, but if I were to choose between a series with the Sybil system and a series with Akane and Enforcers/Inspectors, I would go for the Akane option. You can't have a good series reliant on gimmicks and props alone.

There's also another reason why *I* don't agree with the whole "Sybil is at the core of the show" (disclaimer: your own experience may vary) And that is pretty much following the same ideas Reckoner has...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner
Usually the goal of a dystopia in literature is to illustrate some negative aspect of our society, that if taken too far could spell immense troubles.
If the point is to get us to feel the whole "we are the monsters" angle, then I'm sorry but the entire personification of Sybil in the last episodes just blew it. Not only that but I can't help but feel alien to (a) the indifference of the PP society and (b) their addiction and logic when it comes to Sybil.

I wouldn't call this a strike against the series since I was pretty indifferent to the whole world beyond team Akane Kogami (in particular the average denizens), but I still felt when the whole riot gears started turning the small world that was, became smaller and smaller.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant
The fact that Sybil is unable to take care of them efficiently is proof that it doesn't work.
I am unfamiliar with the history of serial killers, but I'm pretty sure the show didn't paint as "Sybil can't deal with serial killers" (that would actually be interesting), from my view frame it's "there are these random people that can't be scanned" (and I do see that in the most plot-needy manner). If it was explained I would like to know the source. (please don't read this as a challenge)

Also I think they would have tested it on some (there are plenty of jails after all) and would have found out if regular serial killers were a problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
It's ironic that while the manga is titled Inspector Akane Tsunemori Kogami stole the cover from the first volume.

FML
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Old 2013-03-05, 15:43   Link #154
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Reckoner, are you disputing the claim that the visual imagery is clear in portraying the Sibyl System as both villainous and sociopathic?
I wouldn't dispute that the imagery makes it look villainous, but sociopathic is a different story. The brain imagery distracts from the idea that this could just be seen as 250 people sitting in a room and making decisions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The flaws of the Sibyl System have been shown in every single episode. Even if we exclude Makishima (and I don't count him all that highly), there are still tons of problems from fragility to the human cost.
For Makishima it all comes down to the individual will of each person. Being able to express their very soul and live according to it in life. That's what Sibyl has prevented people from doing, and I think Gen has made a good case for why we absolutely should not lose this in society.

Still the system has maintained order in society, and it's been quite peaceful until Makishima unleashed his plans. Every system has its bugs though, and they just got to figure those ones out.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The point of the show is that the Sibyl System did achieve peace (for a given value of peace) while being simultaneously sociopathic. Personally, I think that the historical evidence shows that there are many ways of producing peaceful societies; some much crueler than others.

If you feel that it fails the believability test, then you can take it up with the show's creators. After all, they've taken great pains to paint the Sibyl System as something awful.
My contention is that I don't believe it would make sense that every brain in the system is a sociopath. That could only be possible if the person who created the system is a sociopath. I'd like to believe personally that Gen can write better than that, otherwise the story loses its narrative significance.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The show stopped being just about small people as soon as the chief opened fire on Kagari.
Nobody knew that the chief did that though. Only now with Akane about to get the truth will it stop being about small people.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Have people actually been making that argument?
Unless we are on completely different pages here, I believe you have been asserting this yourself. If the Sibyl System is as sociopathic as you believe, then it is the rule as far as you are concerned.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
If the point is to get us to feel the whole "we are the monsters" angle, then I'm sorry but the entire personification of Sybil in the last episodes just blew it. Not only that but I can't help but feel alien to (a) the indifference of the PP society and (b) their addiction and logic when it comes to Sybil.

I wouldn't call this a strike against the series since I was pretty indifferent to the whole world beyond team Akane Kogami (in particular the average denizens), but I still felt when the whole riot gears started turning the small world that was, became smaller and smaller.
Well I think it's important to how this relates to Japanese society because obviously our writer here is Japanese. In Psycho-Pass we have a country that has continually insulated itself, and that is obsessed with their mental health and maintaining collective order that they stopped expressing their own individual free will. And guess what? Japan already is a society that doesn't care nearly enough about the individual. It's always about the group there, and people are kept down from expressing themselves. I almost get the impression that Gen views his fellow citizens in Japan as cattle. We also know that Japan is a xenophobic country, etc.
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Old 2013-03-05, 16:11   Link #155
felix
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@Reckoner

Well I don't disagree with your point, but on the part of Japan being xenophobic, is there evidence of that since I always assumed it was more of a cliche; as in it's normal behavior for a island nation and more along the lines of they're awkward when it comes to foreigners (like every other nation on the face of the planet), nothing too extreme.
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Old 2013-03-05, 17:39   Link #156
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Playing devil's advocate a bit...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
Reckoner, are you disputing the claim that the visual imagery is clear in portraying the Sibyl System as both villainous and sociopathic?
Imagery's at best the creators' opinion. We don't have to agree with their conclusions on the morality of the premise.

Quote:
While the show would like us to believe that he's some sort of existential threat, I don't find this convincing. He's been reduced to posting on 2ch for a new plan for crying out loud.
He's not the one who posted the thread - it was Kogami's professor friend.

Quote:
And even that new plan exists only because the creators invented a new vulnerability for him to attack.
Yes, the system's fragility has been a problem since Makishima's first plan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Human society have serial killers the same way we have Earthquakes. We KNOW they exist. And we plan around these things. Sybil did not. And they are not dealing with some supervillain; just your ordinary cold-hearted killer in a society incapable of dealing with him.
To be fair - it doesn't make much sense to earthquake-proof a house built somewhere earthquakes just don't happen.

Our societies aren't crime free either - plenty of murderers do "get away with it". And even more are caught only after they, well, become murderers.

If Makishima was the sole murderer in PP Japan, and he killed only one person a week, even if he did it for 70 years, one could just call that... acceptable losses and still feel that society is extraordinarily safe. Or at least safe from criminals - random incarceration by the state's another matter...

The problem is that that society seems to go out of its way to be easy to topple.
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Old 2013-03-05, 19:03   Link #157
4Tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Rambo View Post
Somebody like Makishima is only an existential threat to a weak society. Some people get annoyed at me for repeating this fact, without stopping to consider the implications for just how sick a society has to be for any individual like Makishima to be a threat to it.
The physical part of the Sibyl System would have been a lot more secure if the creators hadn't decided that they should have no security whatsoever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Ask Valiant or Rambo.
I don't think that either of them are saying that there's lots of people like Makishima running around. From what I can tell, Vallen Chaos Valiant is stating that he's not particularly special, and Roger Rambo is stating that he almost destroyed the Sibyl System.

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Originally Posted by felix View Post
How so. The status of Enforcer is basically just "criminal in service of justice." It takes a lot of pushing and pulling to even stick Sybil in there. As an example, the Sybil system could be replaced by some "criminal coeficient at birth," some "special psychological checkup" (done by humans I mean), various factors such as what your inclinations in life are (oh you like drinking and smoking and X, high PP rating), the psycho reading techniques of the good doctor, etc, and the status of enforcer / detective would still exist.
So the way that we can remove the Sibyl System is to replace it with mechanisms that work almost exactly like the Sibyl System? Thanks for proving my point, I guess.

Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
Yes the Sybil system has some "unique" problems, but it's at best only tangent on the plot of everything else in the show. What power of interaction do most of the characters in the show have other then to (a) find it (b) stop it. If the show is about the Sybil system, then focusing on "the team" is also a waste of time; since only their missions and various system interactions are of interest in shaping Sybil within the story—otherwise it has the same problems as an "interesting rock," it's not going anywhere. And really it's not going anywhere (literally), hence why I find it hard to grasp how Sybil is meant to be what we should care for in the story.
Quote:
the Sibyl System is harped on in every single episode, and it's the subject of almost every significant conversation in the show.
Focusing the story on a few characters to highlight the strengths and flaws of a social/political system is the standard format of almost every cyberpunk story.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I wouldn't dispute that the imagery makes it look villainous, but sociopathic is a different story. The brain imagery distracts from the idea that this could just be seen as 250 people sitting in a room and making decisions.
The sociopath part comes from the Sibyl System being ghouls: barely hanging on to the appearance of humanity. No human cares, no human concerns, and no inclination to act in a moral manner.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Still the system has maintained order in society, and it's been quite peaceful until Makishima unleashed his plans. Every system has its bugs though, and they just got to figure those ones out.
In a more subtle work, the question would have been whether the costs incurred are worth the order gained. That's not really the dynamics at play in the show though. Here, we're told that the Sibyl System is literally monstrous.

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Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Nobody knew that the chief did that though. Only now with Akane about to get the truth will it stop being about small people.
What a show is about is dependent on what is shown to the viewers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
Unless we are on completely different pages here, I believe you have been asserting this yourself. If the Sibyl System is as sociopathic as you believe, then it is the rule as far as you are concerned.
I don't think that Makishima is important in the grand scheme of things whereas the original claim is that his ilk is a serious threat to the Sibyl System. Maybe we are on different pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Imagery's at best the creators' opinion. We don't have to agree with their conclusions on the morality of the premise.
That's true enough. But if we vehemently disagree with what the creators are trying to show, then that means that they've failed to communicate their idea somewhere.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He's not the one who posted the thread - it was Kogami's professor friend.
Thanks for the correction - I think I've had too many wordswordswords on the brain. Of course it still means that Makishima is threatened by someone whose friend was posting on 2ch. I'm not sure that's any better though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Yes, the system's fragility has been a problem since Makishima's first plan.
The kind of fragility I'm concerned with isn't the single point of failure of all the brains in jars or everyone depending on a single crop. Those are just half-baked ideas cooked up by the creators to generate tension, and they're utterly unconvincing.

The real fragilities of the Sibyl System are that it requires almost the entire population to have absolute faith that it functions perfectly, and that they must never know the truth of how it functions.
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Old 2013-03-06, 00:53   Link #158
Quadratic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
I don't think that either of them are saying that there's lots of people like Makishima running around. From what I can tell, Vallen Chaos Valiant is stating that he's not particularly special, and Roger Rambo is stating that he almost destroyed the Sibyl System.
Dengar wasn't saying there's a lot running around, either. I'd say he's surprised there are posts implying all serial killers = Makishima.

As an example, here is my interpretation of a post by Vallen Chaos Valiant:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Sybil is the only reason serial killers are able to run rampant.
Being a serial killer allows you to bypass the Sibyl reading.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
There is nothing special about serial killers. Every nation has to deal with them on a regular basis. The fact that Sybil is unable to take care of them efficiently is proof that it doesn't work.
Makishima is a serial killer. Because Makishima is a serial killer, and because being a serial killer allows you to bypass the Sibyl reading, all serial killers are like Makishima.
Sibyl took an interest in Makishima, a serial killer, therefore Sibyl is interested in all serial killers and tries to recruit them all, therefore Sibyl does not take care of them efficiently (since being a person of interest = protective duty).

Note the 2nd line has more to do with one of his post in the ep 18 thread where he stated all the brains in the Sibyl collective were serial killers, which I can't be bothered finding the post to quote on (apologies on my laziness).
[Yes, please do enlightenment me if I've misinterpreted this post, because that's how I'm reading it]


While I do agree the things with Sibyl are wrong (obviously, since the story is directed that way), I don't agree with some of the arguments against Sibyl because the arguments lack 100% concrete evidence (ie. the Yayoi & Kagari wrongly incarcerated argument, and 'you will randomly be arrested and/or vaporized on the street' argument).
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Old 2013-03-06, 01:11   Link #159
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadratic View Post


While I do agree the things with Sibyl are wrong (obviously, since the story is directed that way), I don't agree with some of the arguments against Sibyl because the arguments lack 100% concrete evidence (ie. the Yayoi & Kagari wrongly incarcerated argument, and 'you will randomly be arrested and/or vaporized on the street' argument).
So basically, you're expecting 100% concrete proof of a negative. You realize that it's practically impossible to prove a negative, right?

Besides, why should the onus of proof be entirely on the Sibyl critics? Why shouldn't any of that onus be on the Sibyl defenders? In fact, if anything, the onus of proof ought to be on Sibyl. After all, Sibyl is what is making claims here. In this case, Sibyl is claiming that Yayoi and Kagari are latent criminals.

Well, through 19 episodes of Psycho-Pass (which is a perfectly good sample size of character moments to work with), is there any reason to think that Yayoi and Kagari are likely to become serious criminals if not kept under the thumb of Sibyl?

I see no evidence of that with Yayoi. None whatsoever. I see little evidence of that with Kagari.

So it's perfectly reasonable to question just how justified is the incarceration of Yayoi and Kagari, especially when we know that Sibyl has a subjective human element to its judgements, and isn't purely mechanical/AI in nature. And it's perfectly reasonable to take the position that, based on the evidence we have to work with so far, Yayoi and Kagari were wrongly incarcerated.


And if Yayoi and Kagari were wrongly incarcerated, then that means that it's perfectly possible for anybody to be wrongly incarcerated (or killed) by Sibyl.
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Old 2013-03-06, 01:22   Link #160
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Join Date: Nov 2004
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Quote:
Being a serial killer allows you to bypass the Sibyl reading.
Nope. What I meant was that Sybil neutered the ability of the police officers to make decisions by forcing everyone to use Sybil to decide gilty or innocence. The fact that the reading was bypassed is NOT the point. The point is that Sybyl knows the reading can be bypassed and yet still use it ANYWAY. They are using a broken means to judge people, because they need to pretend Sybil can't be wrong.

Because maintaining faith in Sybil is the only thing keeping the country together. Everyone is living in a lie.

Quote:
Makishima is a serial killer. Because Makishima is a serial killer, and because being a serial killer allows you to bypass the Sibyl reading, all serial killers are like Makishima.
Sibyl took an interest in Makishima, a serial killer, therefore Sibyl is interested in all serial killers and tries to recruit them all, therefore Sibyl does not take care of them efficiently (since being a person of interest = protective duty).
I have no idea what you are talking about. You are transfixed on the Sybil system and nothing else. Which means you are thinking just like Sybil; you are not seeing the forest for the trees.
The system could not catch serial killers because the system doesn't work. Why Sybil want him caught alive and incorporated into the system is irrelevant; what matters is that the laws in the system is papered over.

Sybil need to pretend nothing is wrong, because it refuses to reflect on its own flaws. No, adding new brains won't fix it; it wants to add new brains because it is the only thing it WANTS to do. They want a new brain to join them not because it is the right solution, but because it is the only acceptable solution that was desired for Sybil.

It doesn't matter who's brains are in Sybil. They are making bad decisions, and they are not accountable for the bad decisions. And you definitely can't make the claim that they would fix themselves; that's as likely as waiting for aristocrats to stop being corrupt on their own.
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