AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Games

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-08-22, 15:47   Link #201
NorthernFallout
Return
*Author
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Frosty Scandinavia
Age: 25
As a sidenote, EVE allows people to activate their accs for 3 hours (once, then they need to pay again) to allow them access to in-game stuff. Perhaps Wildstar might use something similar (and if they don't, it's probably possible to offer it as feedback to the devs. Somewhere. Maybe.)
__________________

NorthernFallout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-23, 05:21   Link #202
Mr Hat and Clogs
Troublemaker Fanclub
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 31
I'm pretty much with Syn comparing F2P and Sub games. To me, F2P games are just distractions for little periods of time, I rarely spend money on them if at all (outside of extra character slots) because if you want to be 'competitive' you generally end up paying more per month than a sub game.

Although, I don't see F2P or microtransaction going away any time soon. Publishers lap that shit right up.

What the customer paid initially is NOT ENOUGH! We cant afford those ivory back scratchers. We need a way to make them pay more! I know, lets make key crafting materials that can be purchased with real money or, have a drop rate of 0.000001%! Genius lads, lets break for bacardi breezers. What, we can't afford those either? Well, we will just have to cut out those pesky story elements down in size, and sell them in smaller chunks, priced moderately of course!
__________________
Mr Hat and Clogs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-23, 07:44   Link #203
Jazzrat
Bearly Legal
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
And these things--developer commitment to content creation and team size--depend on payment model. F2P developers do not keep staff around; they can't afford to, because they cannot make accurate projections about what sort of revenue they're going to bring in next month. This month they brought in a few million, but next month they might get squat.

Considering how a company will never sacrifice its own profits to make the customer happy, do not expect to see an excess of new content from any F2P game. Aion's content release schedule is the norm; expect new stuff (that isn't tied to the cash shop) once a year.
You're wrong in that assumption. F2P or sub model have little bearing on staff size. At the end of the day, it's the revenue generated and future prospect that matters. It's why there's people doing project planning and market research. Not every mmo goes bust and kill off development because they went F2P, in fact we have seen cases where going F2P saved the game and expanded their content. LotRO, DDO, DCUO, STO are one of the best examples.

In the same vein, sub games also runs into the same issue. When content runs out, sub count will drop as well. WoW and EVE runs into the same issue yearly when they hit the content drought. While WoW continues persist in the same direction they have been going since the beginning, CCP changed their development model to smaller but more frequent updates.

Fundementally, all MMO games are built in the same way where the developers are trying to slow down player progress in order to make money via sub or selling xp potions. That's why there's so much "grind" in them as opposed to other types of games.

Just at how skill training works in Eve or the controversial fatigue system FFXIV tried to introduced before. It's all made to ensure players will continue to pay the game without adding meaningful content.
__________________
Jazzrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-23, 11:21   Link #204
synaesthetic
blinded by blood
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Oakland, CA
Age: 30
Send a message via AIM to synaesthetic Send a message via Skype™ to synaesthetic
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/fi...lay-exclusive/

I think Yoshida is a bit more knowledgeable about this field than you are.
__________________
synaesthetic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-23, 13:11   Link #205
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
The entire wireless telco business is built around "P2P" subscription - because predictable income is most important when planning new infrastructure or maintenance. There are F2P carriers but they are either piggybacking on the P2P networks or they have established infrastructure they aren't going to be doing maintenance/upgrades on. Why? Because the income isn't predictable.

That's pretty much exactly how Yoshida is putting it and that is pretty much the way most service-oriented business thinks. That's why opera houses, symphonies, zoos, museums, sports organizations work hard for subscription memberships - predictable income.

There's a place for F2P even within P2P games but it is very much the "patron + peanut gallery" concept of entertainment.
__________________
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-23, 14:10   Link #206
Jazzrat
Bearly Legal
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
http://venturebeat.com/2013/06/17/fi...lay-exclusive/

I think Yoshida is a bit more knowledgeable about this field than you are.
He's also trying to sell you FFXIV subscription. See the clash of interest here? Of course, if you are a fan of FFXIV, there's nothing much I can say.
__________________
Jazzrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-24, 16:21   Link #207
Mow Yun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 24
Send a message via AIM to Mow Yun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
The entire wireless telco business is built around "P2P" subscription - because predictable income is most important when planning new infrastructure or maintenance. There are F2P carriers but they are either piggybacking on the P2P networks or they have established infrastructure they aren't going to be doing maintenance/upgrades on. Why? Because the income isn't predictable.

That's pretty much exactly how Yoshida is putting it and that is pretty much the way most service-oriented business thinks. That's why opera houses, symphonies, zoos, museums, sports organizations work hard for subscription memberships - predictable income.

There's a place for F2P even within P2P games but it is very much the "patron + peanut gallery" concept of entertainment.
Also people in subscription are also paying for content they will not use. For example, if you buy 12 months of magazine (a 1 year subscription) for 50% of the cover price, but you only end up reading 3 or finding 3 interesting, you spent more than you would have had you only purchased the magazines you wanted or found interesting.

P2P MMO will charge you 1 month of game time but not everyone plays every day. For F2P players will purchase what they want or (feel) need to use. So there's a different dynamic.

In the same vein, you could say P2P + cash shop model is like TV cable. You pay a base rate for cable, and then to add on packages you have to pay extra. Or extra bandwidth.
Mow Yun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 03:30   Link #208
Kafriel
Senior Guest
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Athens (GMT+2)
Age: 26
F2P games depend entirely on the company that runs them. I once hit LV146 or so in Maplestory...after 3 years of everyday gaming, because the exp curve was so steep that you needed ~200,000,000 exp to level up and the daily bosses yielded like, 210k...if you could get to them before others. NEXON just left the game to die, opening more and more classes instead of focusing on new maps - and when they did, the new maps were locked...in order to access them, you had to climb a 100-floor castle, kill an impossible boss that has a X% chance of dropping an item and, of course, get that ONE item. That, or buy it in the cash shop.

OTOH, CabalOnline was much softer, with only means of fast transport making a premium user stand out. Not that there weren't other bonuses, but it was nothing too great really. (In comparison, MapleStory players can't set up a shop to sell their stuff without paying up).

As for me, I'm currently playing Rusty Hearts, an F2P game that is definitely pay-to-win...but its PvP system is the best I've seen so far and the plot is intriguing, so I can at least enjoy the game even if I don't hit the big leagues of massive raids and guild tourneys. Unfortunately, PWE doesn't really give a damn about it, leaving numerous bugs and blatant hacking (to the point of people creating and duping GM gear or allowing insane +700 augments and +20 enchants). I heard there was a purge at some point, but the game's bleeding out atm. Oh, PEW did do one thing: a mass discount on cash shop items
__________________
Kafriel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 08:06   Link #209
Westlo
Lets be reality
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mow Yun View Post
P2P MMO will charge you 1 month of game time but not everyone plays every day. For F2P players will purchase what they want or (feel) need to use. So there's a different dynamic.
It's like 45 cents a day to play an MMO, if that's making you play everyday and/or feel like a day not being logged in is wasted, lmao. People spent more money on one days lunch/coffee than they do for an MMO per month.

I still think that charging $15 a month is something that has to go though, WoW can get away with it because it's WoW, but something like Wildstar, FFXIV: ARR and Elder Scrolls probably won't. $10 would be a lot better at keeping numbers.

Likewise F2P games that charge for a sub like TOR+TERA should be doing the same, you need to be subbed to really play them, though a lot of people just like to level up and quit since raiding is not for them. F2P works for that aspect. F2P is for the casual player whereas if you're serious you're going to still be subbing regardless. Now B2P models like GW2 and hopefully EQNext are a bit different.
Westlo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 11:13   Link #210
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
When F2P advocates speak, this is what I hear:

WAH WAH I DON'T WANT TO PAY $15 A MONTH FOR THAT GAME IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE

I'LL JUST GO PLAY THIS FREE TO PLAY GAME AND SPEND $50 A MONTH IN THE CASH SHOP BECAUSE IT'S FREE AND STUFF

*facepalm*
Total expense has never been the core of my argument. Ease of return has. I have friends who still play WoW, and I would love to do some casual PvP with them every once in a while. But I know I won't be playing an entire month, so I'm not exactly happy with forking over 12,99 just to play for a couple of days.

F2P games on the other hand, I can fire up whenever I want. It's convenience, and it lets me get back easier. If I then choose to spend money in the game afterwards, that's a bridge I'll cross then.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 11:27   Link #211
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
He's also trying to sell you FFXIV subscription. See the clash of interest here? Of course, if you are a fan of FFXIV, there's nothing much I can say.
By that same logic, anything said by anyone working in the F2P industry who promotes F2P are also automatically invalid

I guess when you can't find fault with the argument, attack the messenger instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
In the same vein, sub games also runs into the same issue. When content runs out, sub count will drop as well. WoW and EVE runs into the same issue yearly when they hit the content drought. While WoW continues persist in the same direction they have been going since the beginning, CCP changed their development model to smaller but more frequent updates.
Can't speak to WoW, but you're wrong on CCP/EVE. The shift in development strategy is not to smaller and more frequent updates, as the main updates remains the summer and winter expansion as it has always been. The change is from developing big shiny so-called "Jesus" features that gets pushed out into the game and then promptly gets neglected as CCP chases after the next Jesus feature, into smaller iteration/changes to all facets of the game.

Quote:
Just at how skill training works in Eve or the controversial fatigue system FFXIV tried to introduced before. It's all made to ensure players will continue to pay the game without adding meaningful content.
Yea, because every character in Eve should just be able to fly anything and do everything from day 1

Last edited by kyp275; 2013-08-25 at 11:40.
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 15:02   Link #212
Mow Yun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 24
Send a message via AIM to Mow Yun
Quote:
Originally Posted by Westlo View Post
It's like 45 cents a day to play an MMO, if that's making you play everyday and/or feel like a day not being logged in is wasted, lmao. People spent more money on one days lunch/coffee than they do for an MMO per month.

I still think that charging $15 a month is something that has to go though, WoW can get away with it because it's WoW, but something like Wildstar, FFXIV: ARR and Elder Scrolls probably won't. $10 would be a lot better at keeping numbers.

Likewise F2P games that charge for a sub like TOR+TERA should be doing the same, you need to be subbed to really play them, though a lot of people just like to level up and quit since raiding is not for them. F2P works for that aspect. F2P is for the casual player whereas if you're serious you're going to still be subbing regardless. Now B2P models like GW2 and hopefully EQNext are a bit different.
Yes, there is a point for that, but for example, busy people who only can play on weekends, or only 1 day of the week, it represents money that would have been wasted. 15 USD per month would now be ~1.8 USD per day if you were only able to play weekends. So in a way subscription also encourages mindless grinding.

EDIT: For example, in World of Tanks there is the monthly premium service (similar to monthly subscription), but since I rarely play, I can log on and buy only 1 or 3 days of premium service instead, which would be more worth my money. I can buy only the time I am going to play.
Mow Yun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 17:54   Link #213
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mow Yun View Post
Yes, there is a point for that, but for example, busy people who only can play on weekends, or only 1 day of the week, it represents money that would have been wasted. 15 USD per month would now be ~1.8 USD per day if you were only able to play weekends. So in a way subscription also encourages mindless grinding.

EDIT: For example, in World of Tanks there is the monthly premium service (similar to monthly subscription), but since I rarely play, I can log on and buy only 1 or 3 days of premium service instead, which would be more worth my money. I can buy only the time I am going to play.
Personally i think that's a pretty terrible way of looking at it. I can realistically only dedicate decent playtime to MMOs on some weekends, but I gladly pay the sub fees because I much prefer what I get out of those games when I do play them. I don't want to go into my games and have advertisement shoved into my face, or deal with game mechanics designed for cash shops.

And frankly, 2 dollars a day for entertainment is pretty damn cheap, I can't even buy my lunch at work for that much.
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 19:32   Link #214
Mow Yun
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Age: 24
Send a message via AIM to Mow Yun
It's expensive when I can buy 50 hour entertainment games for 4.99 on steam :P Also for 15 USD a month, every 3-4 months that's a brand new game. So the subscription game in question has to be good enough to be an additional game's value in entertainment or else it wouldn't be worth the subscription. And that really varies per game.

Also, I'd like to point out that even P2P subscription games have game mechanics that are designed to keep you playing for X amount of time, if you are referring to those. Cooldown timers for dungeons + low percentage of bind on pickup drops, for instance. Whether subscription or F2P it's a mechanics issue, not a money issue.

Personally I think F2P is going on the bandwagon effect. Everyone saw it with WoW, and then now they are jumping on to the free to play bandwagon. Except there's only so many hours people play per day, and only so much money to go around. So I think eventually sticking f2p onto every MMO is going to backfire pretty badly.
Mow Yun is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 21:05   Link #215
kuroishinigami
Ava courtesy of patchy
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Personally i think that's a pretty terrible way of looking at it. I can realistically only dedicate decent playtime to MMOs on some weekends, but I gladly pay the sub fees because I much prefer what I get out of those games when I do play them. I don't want to go into my games and have advertisement shoved into my face, or deal with game mechanics designed for cash shops.

And frankly, 2 dollars a day for entertainment is pretty damn cheap, I can't even buy my lunch at work for that much.
It might be cheap for working person like you and me, but certainly not so for students(college and high school) who doesn't have their own income yet.

Don't get me wrong, I love P2P model more than F2P, although I think all P2P model should offer a free trial period and sell gametime based subscription option(something like 5$ for 10 hour of play and 10$ for 30 hour of play or something to that effect) along with their monthly subscription, but I kind of understand why some people like the F2P model more(ease of return, non-binding feeling of having to get what you paid for even if it's a small amount of money, etc).
kuroishinigami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-25, 21:22   Link #216
Jazzrat
Bearly Legal
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
By that same logic, anything said by anyone working in the F2P industry who promotes F2P are also automatically invalid

I guess when you can't find fault with the argument, attack the messenger instead.
There's a big difference in criticism of source and poster. Yoshida's arguement doesn't come from a neutral stance regardless of his sincerity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Can't speak to WoW, but you're wrong on CCP/EVE. The shift in development strategy is not to smaller and more frequent updates, as the main updates remains the summer and winter expansion as it has always been. The change is from developing big shiny so-called "Jesus" features that gets pushed out into the game and then promptly gets neglected as CCP chases after the next Jesus feature, into smaller iteration/changes to all facets of the game.
How long have you played or kept track of CCP's update on EVE? There's a clear difference in their production pipeline if you look back far enough into their history. Instead of changing multiple features within a single updates, they have broken them up into smaller chunks to ensure there's something new for players consistently.

Not just CCP, plenty of other MMO developers are adopting the same strategy whether they are F2P or P2P because long time gap in updates tends to cause people to unsubscribe or stop playing during those content drought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Yea, because every character in Eve should just be able to fly anything and do everything from day 1
You completely missed the point and went on your own hyperbole. No matter how good or how many hours you are playing, the game is throttled by the sp system to ensure players have to maintain their subscription to progress. That's why there's a significant power gap between new players and old players regardless of the number of hours played because progress is heavily determined by months subscribed.
__________________
Jazzrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-26, 04:28   Link #217
NorthernFallout
Return
*Author
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Frosty Scandinavia
Age: 25
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
No matter how good or how many hours you are playing, the game is throttled by the sp system to ensure players have to maintain their subscription to progress.
While you have a point about keeping people subbed (seeing how I have 3 active accounts training, one of which I use the most), the "SP=Power" argument has been crushed several times. For example, I have 86 million SP, 90% of it in combat, and I get owned in every single PvP scenario. One of our dudes in the alliance has close to 130, and I'm better than him at PvP.

It all comes down to skill, not stats.
__________________

NorthernFallout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-26, 08:22   Link #218
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
but I kind of understand why some people like the F2P model more(ease of return, non-binding feeling of having to get what you paid for even if it's a small amount of money, etc).
Agreed, I just don't like those who thinks F2P is the end-all be-all
of MMOs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
There's a big difference in criticism of source and poster. Yoshida's arguement doesn't come from a neutral stance regardless of his sincerity.
Find me a person who can claim to be educated and knowledgeable about any subject yet without any bias.

The important thing is to look at the validity of the argument, not merely dismiss them out of hand.

Quote:
How long have you played or kept track of CCP's update on EVE?
Since RMR in early 2006.

Quote:
There's a clear difference in their production pipeline if you look back far enough into their history. Instead of changing multiple features within a single updates, they have broken them up into smaller chunks to ensure there's something new for players consistently.
Not quite, most non-expansion updates are extremely limited in size and scope, basically the low hanging fruits. The only exception is the tiericide, but that is neccesitated by the scope of the project, and the need to see how the changes in one class affects the meta before proceeding with others.

And FYI, they are going back to the "multiple features Ina single updated" format, because they finally realized that neglecting parts of the game for years is not a good idea(coughindustryupdatecough).

Quote:
No matter how good or how many hours you are playing, the game is throttled by the sp system to ensure players have to maintain their subscription to progress. That's why there's a significant power gap between new players and old players regardless of the number of hours played because progress is heavily determined by months subscribed.
Spoken like someone who doesn't understand Eve. SP means little in Eve, least of all as a mechanic for people to keep subbing(there are those who flat out stops training to keep keep clone cost down).

"Progress" in a sandbox game like Eve is determined by each player. SP is merely one of many tools that one may or may not use to obtain their goal. For example, the vast majority of my fortunes were made on my alts with less than a mil SP, using the real cause of the gap between new and old player - experience, actual player skill, and connections.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernFallout View Post
It all comes down to skill, not stats.
Yup
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-27, 09:18   Link #219
Jazzrat
Bearly Legal
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by NorthernFallout View Post
While you have a point about keeping people subbed (seeing how I have 3 active accounts training, one of which I use the most), the "SP=Power" argument has been crushed several times. For example, I have 86 million SP, 90% of it in combat, and I get owned in every single PvP scenario. One of our dudes in the alliance has close to 130, and I'm better than him at PvP.

It all comes down to skill, not stats.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying SP > all. Actual understanding of tactics and fitting plays a key role in winning but to get to the fitting you need to tackle the situation, you still need SP in the right category. Maxing out the relevant skills will still give you a flat distinctive advantage such as better dmg, tracking, range on your guns.

There's no right or wrong in it, just how the business model is driven in Eve Online.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post

Spoken like someone who doesn't understand Eve. SP means little in Eve, least of all as a mechanic for people to keep subbing(there are those who flat out stops training to keep keep clone cost down).

"Progress" in a sandbox game like Eve is determined by each player. SP is merely one of many tools that one may or may not use to obtain their goal. For example, the vast majority of my fortunes were made on my alts with less than a mil SP, using the real cause of the gap between new and old player - experience, actual player skill, and connections.
Spoken like someone who have forgotten the fundamentals of Eve Online. To do anything in Eve, you still need to invest SP in the field of choosing. While the power curve will eventually plateau, there is still a curve in the equation. A logi IV pilot will always have statistically less repping power compare to a logi V pilot in similar fitting. A combat pilot cant manufacture without investing time to train in industry skill and vice versa. Even the cheapest trading alts requires time investment in training to be effective and subscription to maintain.

The sp is the stick and player choice is the carrot in the Eve.
__________________
Jazzrat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-08-27, 11:19   Link #220
kyp275
ZA ZOMBIE!!!
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Somewhere in the EVE cluster...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzrat View Post
Spoken like someone who have forgotten the fundamentals of Eve Online. To do anything in Eve, you still need to invest SP in the field of choosing. While the power curve will eventually plateau, there is still a curve in the equation. A logi IV pilot will always have statistically less repping power compare to a logi V pilot in similar fitting. A combat pilot cant manufacture without investing time to train in industry skill and vice versa. Even the cheapest trading alts requires time investment in training to be effective and subscription to maintain.

The sp is the stick and player choice is the carrot in the Eve.
Nobody ever said SP doesn't serve as a basic barrier, but it is hardly what "keeps people subbed", as you put it. For myself, I'm training skills solely because it comes with the sub and would be a waste not to, I don't even remember the last time when I really cared what I was training.

And having left the pew pew side of things for a couple of years, I'm fairly certain there are many new players who can easily hand me my 160mil ass on a silver patter.

Neither does everything require SP as you claim - what skill do you have to train to be a diplomat? to organize events? What skill did the people who runs BIG and Blink had to train first?

Last edited by kyp275; 2013-08-27 at 11:32.
kyp275 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 23:47.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.