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Old 2013-03-06, 00:17   Link #41
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Just because you have not personally utilized the system, or consider the advantages that are bought significant enough, doesn't change the fact that the game mechanic allows players to purchase in-game advantages with real money, which is the essence of P2W.
Have you even played WoT? More to the point, have you bought any premium stuff with real money in WoT?

If the "advantages" that can be bought in an F2P like WoT does not skew the balance massively in your favour such that you're much more likely to get the win, how is it still P2W?
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Old 2013-03-06, 00:45   Link #42
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
Have you even played WoT? More to the point, have you bought any premium stuff with real money in WoT?

If the "advantages" that can be bought in an F2P like WoT does not skew the balance massively in your favour such that you're much more likely to get the win, how is it still P2W?
I have not played it, nor will I ever. I have however, read more than enough from both sides of the topic(quite the dead horse on the official forums) from the actual players to form my own opinion.

Why would the balance need to be "massively" be in your favor for it to be P2W? Some like to argue that it's not P2W as long as one isn't guaranteed 100% to "win", which is just arguing semantics and missing the point on purpose.

All you have to ask yourself is this:

- Does the game include a cash shop?
- Does the cash shop contain items that alters game balance?

If so, then it's P2W, the only question left is simply a matter of degrees.
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Old 2013-03-06, 00:54   Link #43
frivolity
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If the definition of P2W is so broad as to include any system that allows in-game advantages to be purchased with real money, then please explain how P2W is necessarily a bad thing if every cash shop item is tradable and can be purchased from other players for in-game gold.
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Old 2013-03-06, 00:59   Link #44
Ascaloth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I have not played it, nor will I ever. I have however, read more than enough from both sides of the topic(quite the dead horse on the official forums) from the actual players to form my own opinion.

Why would the balance need to be "massively" be in your favor for it to be P2W? Some like to argue that it's not P2W as long as one isn't guaranteed 100% to "win", which is just arguing semantics and missing the point on purpose.

All you have to ask yourself is this:

- Does the game include a cash shop?
- Does the cash shop contain items that alters game balance?

If so, then it's P2W, the only question left is simply a matter of degrees.
1) In other words, you've made your observation of WoT based on zero first-hand experience, and only second-hand hearsay, which says a lot about the validity of the opinion you have formed. Noted.

2) Pretty much any F2P model game has a cash shop if it's to be a money-making venture. According to your brand of 'logic', it therefore follows that every F2P game is also a P2W game. Surely, you can see the problems with such an observation.

3) Cash shop items that alters game balance? The only such category of items in WoT which might fit that description would be the premium 'gold' rounds, and I might have conceded that one to you in the past... but not anymore, now that WarGaming has made the same rounds available for in-game 'silver' currency. Since non-paying players can also get access to these 'gold' rounds, I doubt it counts as an item which might be said to favour paying players to any significant degree.
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Old 2013-03-06, 01:17   Link #45
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frivolity View Post
If the definition of P2W is so broad as to include any system that allows in-game advantages to be purchased with real money, then please explain how P2W is necessarily a bad thing if every cash shop item is tradable and can be purchased from other players for in-game gold.
It's a sad state for the industry when purchasing in-game advantage with real money is considered a "broad" definition of P2W...

Whether that's good or bad depends on one's own view on the subject, and ultimately would depend on how the developers designed and implemented the system.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ascaloth View Post
1) In other words, you've made your observation of WoT based on zero first-hand experience, and only second-hand hearsay, which says a lot about the validity of the opinion you have formed. Noted.
Yes, nobody can ever form any valid opinion if they don't play the game personally, even if the topic of discussion is a rather simple, common and well-known system to anyone with even a shred of interest in the genre.

This is not about how one tank measures up to another or what a proposed change in stat may mean, by your logic one can never have a valid opinion on a car unless they own it.

Quote:
2) Pretty much any F2P model game has a cash shop if it's to be a money-making venture. According to your brand of 'logic', it therefore follows that every F2P game is also a P2W game. Surely, you can see the problems with such an observation.
Only if you stop reading my post halfway. Having a cash shop doesn't make it P2W, having a cash shop with game balance-altering items do.

For example, in Dust514 the cash shop guns have the same stats as regular guns, but have less skillpoint requirement so that those without enough points can use them earlier if they want, but those guns doesn't do any more damage than the non-cash shop guns - aka no gold ammo.

Quote:
3) Cash shop items that alters game balance? The only such category of items in WoT which might fit that description would be the premium 'gold' rounds, and I might have conceded that one to you in the past... but not anymore, now that WarGaming has made the same rounds available for in-game 'silver' currency. Since non-paying players can also get access to these 'gold' rounds, I doubt it counts as an item which might be said to favour paying player to any significant degree.
It certainly lessened the degree of P2W, but I would hardly consider it gone all-together. Gold rounds are certainly not cost effective for regular use when purchased with in-game credits, but should someone feel inclined to do so, he/she can certainly load up on gold rounds with real money.
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Old 2013-03-06, 02:15   Link #46
frivolity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It's a sad state for the industry when purchasing in-game advantage with real money is considered a "broad" definition of P2W...

Whether that's good or bad depends on one's own view on the subject, and ultimately would depend on how the developers designed and implemented the system.
Exactly, so P2W, and F2P by extension, is merely a business model that is neither inherently good nor bad. That's exactly what Duo Maxwell was saying - it's other flawed aspects of game management that makes certain games bad, and not the model itself.
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Old 2013-03-06, 02:45   Link #47
Wild Goose
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It's a sad state for the industry when purchasing in-game advantage with real money is considered a "broad" definition of P2W...

Whether that's good or bad depends on one's own view on the subject, and ultimately would depend on how the developers designed and implemented the system.
This has been said already. Twice, now.

Here's the thing which everyone seems to not realise: so long as there are paying customers who are perfectly happy to shell out their money, F2P and DLC will never go away.

Because the customers have demonstrated that they'll put up with it. Because the customers are shelling out their money on a regular basis.

For F2P and DLC to stop, customers must stop buying these things in the first place. And the problem for those who dislike the F2P model is that there is a substantial base of customers who don't mind microtransactions, and thus have no problem paying.

Vote with your wallets, not internet forum posts.

Quote:
Yes, nobody can ever form any valid opinion if they don't play the game personally, even if the topic of discussion is a rather simple, common and well-known system to anyone with even a shred of interest in the genre.

This is not about how one tank measures up to another or what a proposed change in stat may mean, by your logic one can never have a valid opinion on a car unless they own it.
Why, yes, that's correct. You're exactly right.

You may form an opinion on a game, but unless you've personally played it and seen how the mechanics work, your opinion is incomplete, and colored by your bias factor. I'm not sure how unreasonable such a line of thinking is.
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Old 2013-03-06, 02:56   Link #48
kyp275
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
This has been said already. Twice, now.

Here's the thing which everyone seems to not realise: so long as there are paying customers who are perfectly happy to shell out their money, F2P and DLC will never go away.

Because the customers have demonstrated that they'll put up with it. Because the customers are shelling out their money on a regular basis.

For F2P and DLC to stop, customers must stop buying these things in the first place. And the problem for those who dislike the F2P model is that there is a substantial base of customers who don't mind microtransactions, and thus have no problem paying.
When did anyone in here said they should go away? The issue OP raised is that F2P/MT is rapidly encroaching on anything and everything. F2P/MT have their places in games that are designed and works well with them, but not in every game.

Quote:
Vote with your wallets, not internet forum posts.
What, I'm not allowed to do both?


Quote:
Why, yes, that's correct. You're exactly right.

You may form an opinion on a game, but unless you've personally played it and seen how the mechanics work, your opinion is incomplete, and colored by your bias factor. I'm not sure how unreasonable such a line of thinking is.
You're missing the point, I'm not here to do a detailed review of the game, merely discussing a very basic portion of it that is neither special nor unique to that game. I don't need to have played each and every MMO to understand how the frigging log-in screen works, or owe a car to know what pushing on the accelerator does.

Actually, why don't you tell me which part of what I've said is "incomplete and colored by my bias factor".
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Old 2013-03-06, 03:13   Link #49
demino_hellsin
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Retail games should never incorporate micro transactions. DLC should be restricted to post production add on content. Moar opinion. Srsly.
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Old 2013-03-06, 03:23   Link #50
Sumeragi
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
It certainly lessened the degree of P2W, but I would hardly consider it gone all-together. Gold rounds are certainly not cost effective for regular use when purchased with in-game credits, but should someone feel inclined to do so, he/she can certainly load up on gold rounds with real money.
No one does that anymore. One would just buy a premium account or a premium tank and grind the credits.
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Old 2013-03-06, 10:27   Link #51
Wild Goose
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
When did anyone in here said they should go away? The issue OP raised is that F2P/MT is rapidly encroaching on anything and everything. F2P/MT have their places in games that are designed and works well with them, but not in every game.
Ah, thank you for clarifying. That wasn't the impression I was getting from you, mind.

I agree that certain games shouldn't have microtransactions (EA, Dead Space 3, I'm looking at you). At the same time, however, so long as enough paying customers cough up the dough for the microtransactions, companies will continue to implement them.

Quote:
What, I'm not allowed to do both?
You can, but the wallet is a more effective method.

Quote:
You're missing the point, I'm not here to do a detailed review of the game, merely discussing a very basic portion of it that is neither special nor unique to that game. I don't need to have played each and every MMO to understand how the frigging log-in screen works, or owe a car to know what pushing on the accelerator does.

Actually, why don't you tell me which part of what I've said is "incomplete and colored by my bias factor".
And you're also missing my point, that until one experiences the full context, the experience is incomplete and colored by the bias factor. This isn't just you, but it applies to everyone, and to all things. You're free to have your opinions, but they may not be completely correct.

As for a demonstration of your bias factor, you believe that World of Tanks is P2W, based on how you perceive the way it handles microtransactions and premium accounts, while posters who have played World of Tanks do not share your opinion.

*shrug* Of course, this is the internet; at the end of the day you are entitled to your own opinions. But we're starting to get a bit off-track here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by demino_hellsin View Post
Retail games should never incorporate micro transactions. DLC should be restricted to post production add on content. Moar opinion. Srsly.
It depends on the game and purpose, really; I think Mass Effect 3's Multiplayer store has handled things quite well, given that MP microtransactions funded the five MP DLC - which were released for free, mind you.
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Old 2013-03-06, 10:52   Link #52
Duo Maxwell
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I have not played it, nor will I ever. I have however, read more than enough from both sides of the topic(quite the dead horse on the official forums) from the actual players to form my own opinion.
Let me ask you, how would it be pay to win when everything that give you advantage can be bought with in-game currency, aside the camourflage that works like a tank's skin? People could even mod the game to their own desire, and to be honest, the mod is giving the player much more advantage.
You're simply clueless about the game, and you're mention second hand opinions which, are wrong. None of the top clan are using premium tanks, and premium ammo could be bought with in-game currency. Furthermore, you can actually earning credit by using gold ammo that was bought with credit. Yes, you can make profit if you are good.
Another thing, gold ammo doesn't do more damage than regular ammo. It's just make bad people having an easier time to hurt other, which mean good players will know where to shoot and their shell always pierces.

But that is enough about WoT. Unless you actually experience it and form your own opinion, I don't think I could take your argument seriously.
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Old 2013-03-06, 11:04   Link #53
demino_hellsin
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But good sir, do you suppose that type of system should apply to all games? Including full retail games that go for $60 or more?

I'm sure we can all argue whether something is good or bad but in the end we each have our own conveniences.

The questions that plague me after I gave my opinion on this subject are:
1. Do we really want this business model everywhere? Not F2P with item mall but microtransactions.
2. How abusable is this system and what are the worst case scenarios that could be predicted?
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Old 2013-03-06, 11:10   Link #54
willx
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Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
Another thing, gold ammo doesn't do more damage than regular ammo. It's just make bad people having an easier time to hurt other, which mean good players will know where to shoot and their shell always pierces.
2 Points --
1) In certain guns, like the Konisch, gold ammo does do more alpha damage
2) By definition, higher penetration and lower bounces means that average damage on gold ammo will be higher than average damage on non-gold ammo

Anyways --

On the broader topic, it's interesting to see OP's position on this, and to be a bit of a downer I have noticed that there has been a strong move to more "casual" games which F2P/MT/DLC type services cater towards. This unfortunately makes sense, as outside the geekdom/gamer microcosm, most people don't devote that much time to playing games.

Asking someone to shell out $60 to buy a game that they'll play intensively for a few hours and then put away for days/weeks/months likely isn't a sustainable business model. I myself have been a big fan of games, but I bought God of War 3 (never even cracked open the box), Tales of Graces F (played only for 2 hours) and numerous other titles I purchased because it was neat and have never played. I have more discretionary income than some, so most would simply never buy them in the first place .. Ultimately, "we" as a people are demanding more F2P and more "casual" pick-up-and-go-drop-off-and-leave gaming experiences, with some certain exceptions ..
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Old 2013-03-06, 12:27   Link #55
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
Like what?
Guild Wars-With their PVP system and alternative-to-Armor Farm, guild housing, guild vs guild battle.

Everquest-Player Housing, guild housing. Ability to fly in world (WAAAY before Blizzard got around to do it)

And that is just two MMO I actually played.

That fact of the matter is, once you spent enough time at a MMO, is hard to quit. And player population don't grow on trees.
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Old 2013-03-06, 12:29   Link #56
synaesthetic
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Sorry, I don't care how ineffective it is, but if you sell things that alter game balance--even if those things are obtainable in-game--you are still selling power.

Power = something that increases your effectiveness in the game.

Selling = you should know this already.

You can't argue that WoT is not selling power, because they are. They may not be P2W to the same degree that MapleStory or Dragon's Nest is, but they ARE pay-to-win.

That said, I don't care if people want to play microtransaction games and pay-to-win games. I really don't.

I just don't want to and the models have become SO POPULAR that no new subscription games are being released and existing subscription games are being converted to F2P.

I have three options... maybe five when ESO and ARR come out. That's it.
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Old 2013-03-06, 12:32   Link #57
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell View Post
Let me ask you, how would it be pay to win when everything that give you advantage can be bought with in-game currency, aside the camourflage that works like a tank's skin? People could even mod the game to their own desire, and to be honest, the mod is giving the player much more advantage.
Because it's still available in the cash shop?

Quote:
You're simply clueless about the game, and you're mention second hand opinions which, are wrong. None of the top clan are using premium tanks, and premium ammo could be bought with in-game currency. Furthermore, you can actually earning credit by using gold ammo that was bought with credit. Yes, you can make profit if you are good.
Disagreeing with your point of view doesn't make me clueless, it just means I disagree with you. I can also sit here and accuse you of being clueless about game design too, but that would be just as wrong and pointless.

Quote:
Another thing, gold ammo doesn't do more damage than regular ammo. It's just make bad people having an easier time to hurt other, which mean good players will know where to shoot and their shell always pierces.
-see willx's post

Quote:
But that is enough about WoT. Unless you actually experience it and form your own opinion, I don't think I could take your argument seriously.
Until you actually read what I wrote, I don't think I can take your arguments seriously either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
And you're also missing my point, that until one experiences the full context, the experience is incomplete and colored by the bias factor. This isn't just you, but it applies to everyone, and to all things. You're free to have your opinions, but they may not be completely correct.

As for a demonstration of your bias factor, you believe that World of Tanks is P2W, based on how you perceive the way it handles microtransactions and premium accounts, while posters who have played World of Tanks do not share your opinion.
Not quite. In this case context is simply irrelevant. All that matters to me is whether a game-balance effecting item is available from a game's cash shop, if it is, then it's in P2W territory, the degree to which it affects game balance would not change that. To me, arguing that a game isn't P2W because the cash item doesn't have a huge effect is like saying a push or shove can't be considered assault because it's not as forceful as a punch to the face. If you must, you can say that the closest thing to a bias in this case for me would be my definition of what P2W is, but then whether I've played the game or not would still be irrelevant , as the only criteria I use is simply whether such a system is present.

Last edited by kyp275; 2013-03-06 at 12:46.
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Old 2013-03-06, 12:33   Link #58
Sassarai
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Dcuo is the worst I've played as far as micro transactions. The devs came up with something called "replay badges" which allows you to run the old raids/instances as many times as you want to get enough marks to get gear. Even subbers were buying them up like candy and most of the players I know were spending enough to sub the game for an entire year! The only thing the replay badges did was unlock you to run old content! The sad thing was, most players were happy to pay the fee to just get ahead in the game as far as collecting gear. No new content was even needed to get a ton of money off its customers so sad
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Old 2013-03-06, 13:58   Link #59
synaesthetic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sassarai View Post
Dcuo is the worst I've played as far as micro transactions. The devs came up with something called "replay badges" which allows you to run the old raids/instances as many times as you want to get enough marks to get gear. Even subbers were buying them up like candy and most of the players I know were spending enough to sub the game for an entire year! The only thing the replay badges did was unlock you to run old content! The sad thing was, most players were happy to pay the fee to just get ahead in the game as far as collecting gear. No new content was even needed to get a ton of money off its customers so sad
And that's how F2P games make money.

By NOT releasing new content. By NOT fixing bugs. By NOT providing good support. By NOT banning hackers, botters, RMT farmers. By NOT disciplining misbehavior and curtailing trolling.

Doing all of those things costs money, and the less money they spend, the more profit they make. So instead of doing all those things, they find ways to charge you money for something that takes zero effort to develop and implement. And the customers love it, eat it up with a spoon, and throw money at their screen.

It's the new MMO customer base's fault the microtransaction model is completely eating the entire industry, and it's leaving those of us who prefer subscription-only games with no real options. We're being kicked out of the market because we're too picky, too expensive and too hard to please.
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Old 2013-03-06, 14:17   Link #60
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
We're being kicked out of the market because we're too picky, too expensive and too hard to please.
You're being kicked out because you have real standards.
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