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Old 2013-03-08, 17:34   Link #101
Key Board
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I tried StarWars The Old Republic as f2p

honestly, you are treated as 3rd class citizen

almost everything you have is gimped

you gain 25% less experience
you can't equip the highest tier equipment without paying cash (in game or real)
your quick travel has much longer cooldowns (oh boy, more pointless walking)
it's harder to gain mounts (moar pointless walking!)
they limit how much raid boss loot you can acquire per week

but I somehow managed to claw my way upwards
meaning that I cleared the story quest, unlocked most of the f2p restrictions (paid with in game cash), and acquired one of the best gears. (just 1 tier bellow the bestestestest grade)

all without paying any extra money beyond the 4.99 I paid. ( I consider that a one time game rental )

and I'll tell you based on persona experience that people like me make certain subscribers very upset

because it proves I can achieve the same things as a subscriber can with less money. (but with more hassle, but they don't care about that)

To them, clearly the f2p was not gimped enough!

I think player attitude contributes to the problem micro-transactions are having. I think the part of the reason why many f2p models (not just SWTOR) is gimped is because subscribers WANT f2p to be gimped.
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Old 2013-03-08, 17:51   Link #102
felix
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I think player attitude contributes to the problem micro-transactions are having. I think the part of the reason why many f2p models (not just SWTOR) is gimped is because subscribers WANT f2p to be gimped.
I wouldn't base that sort of claim on a game with a crappy business model. Essentially, of course "subscribers suck" when only "sucky ones" are left playing. It's like "F2P games have a crappy player base" when you look at a games that have gone dead or are in WTF-land and you got mostly insane people left.

Also in the case of gimped games you have to understand that essentially they felt gimped and they payed; if it was merely "they payed" it would be a totally different story. The thing you buy has this "psychological" side that fluctuates it's value, if anything what you're buying in cases like that is "confort" more so then "convenience" (hence my detest for it); I can only guess that people who give in to shady business models like that are also extremely sensitive to the recoil of the so called "F2P players" getting "ahead," because as I pointed out earlier people are easily duped into "this payed stuff is superior to every other method of doing things in every way" (which is false a lot of the time—player skill/resourcefulness compensates for a lot).
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:02   Link #103
Vexx
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I rather like the F2P games that are quite clear that the cash shop is purely for cosmetic coolness and not required to just survive the gameplay. But I am and will remain more of a fan of subscription because it provides predictability in cash flow to the dev team.

I will say that total dependence on a cash shop does force ongoing new items in the cash shop (something Secret World failed at with their hybrid model).
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Old 2013-03-08, 20:22   Link #104
kyp275
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Credit Card to victory? Sheesh. More like supporting the game. Think about it. The money he spent will go to maintaining the server, creating new content, and improve customer serivce.
Such a noble purchase, one that players like you are just jumping at the chance to... sit back and let other people handle.

Quote:
@$15 a month (A price, I might mention, have not increased since the 1999 with EQ1) most MMOs can't even make money unless they have a SIGNIFICANT subscriber base.
And I'm sure you don't have the maths to back that up. The reason why many sub games went F2P is not because they needed significant subscriber base due to the $15 fee, it was because they overspent themselves out of a reasonable time frame to recoup the cost during development. Do not confuse piss-poor project management with the viability of subscription model. Hell, EVE online started with a subscriber base that barely reached 5 digits.

Besides, this line of reasoning is more against F2P, where you need a far larger playerbase because the vast majority of them won't be paying a single cent.
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Old 2013-03-08, 21:20   Link #105
Sassarai
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What is a significant player base anyways? FFXI had a player base of 200-300k for years and around 100k now I believe. It's like a decade old and the biggest money maker for S.E That's why I look at micro transactions as just a "money grab" rather than supporting the game.


p.s Talking about mainly mmos like Dcuo with sub and micro fees.
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Old 2013-03-09, 00:11   Link #106
T-6000
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I'm already getting a bit bored of Warface, after playing all day. And I still haven't earned enough in-game currency to buy another weapon so I've been stuck with the stock Assault Rifle the Rifleman has (I'd use the LMG I bought yesterday, but if I use it I'll wear it out and I'll have to repair it with in game currency). It's definitely going to become a large grind fest to get not only new weapons but gear and items. Especially since you'll have to earn additional game currency to keep repairing the stuff you buy. Besides, I prefer the solo experience so that I can go at my own pace and not rely on others to replenish my Health, Armor, and Ammo. *MAYBE* I'll go through the game once in a great while until I upgrade my PC.
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Old 2013-03-09, 11:08   Link #107
Dark Faith
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post

I think player attitude contributes to the problem micro-transactions are having. I think the part of the reason why many f2p models (not just SWTOR) is gimped is because subscribers WANT f2p to be gimped.
SWTOR's subscribers are pretty special, seeing how they fiercely defend that non-subscribers shouldn't be allowed to post on the forums.
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Old 2013-03-09, 12:39   Link #108
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Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
SWTOR's subscribers are pretty special, seeing how they fiercely defend that non-subscribers shouldn't be allowed to post on the forums.
Bioware Social Network is a special brand of batshit insanity. About the only safe thread is the ME3 MP balance update thread.
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Old 2013-03-09, 19:51   Link #109
Tokkan
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Originally Posted by Wild Goose View Post
Bioware Social Network is a special brand of batshit insanity. About the only safe thread is the ME3 MP balance update thread.
SWTOR forums are actually entirely separate from BioWare Social Network.
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Old 2013-03-12, 14:23   Link #110
Key Board
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Originally Posted by Dark Faith View Post
SWTOR's subscribers are pretty special, seeing how they fiercely defend that non-subscribers shouldn't be allowed to post on the forums.
I dunno I've played a few MMORPGs that have gone f2p and I always see the term "f2p kiddy" thrown around

In fact, I think I think I even saw it on this thread.

perhaps it's fear of not being special anymore compared to non-subscribers
perhaps it's the feeling of betrayal that you have subscribed all and paid real money all these months only to be "evenly" matched by someone who didn't pay a cent
perhaps it's just plain old prejudice against newer players
perhaps it's the myth that people who pay more money are better and smarter at games than people who don't
perhaps people are just afraid of change

the point is that I think subscriber ego plays a role in making the situation worse

I don't think it's just SWTOR
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Old 2013-03-12, 16:05   Link #111
Sassarai
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It's just as simple as subbers want the game to worth subbing. If there's no real benefit to it, then why sub?
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Old 2013-03-13, 10:59   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I dunno I've played a few MMORPGs that have gone f2p and I always see the term "f2p kiddy" thrown around

In fact, I think I think I even saw it on this thread.

perhaps it's fear of not being special anymore compared to non-subscribers
perhaps it's the feeling of betrayal that you have subscribed all and paid real money all these months only to be "evenly" matched by someone who didn't pay a cent
perhaps it's just plain old prejudice against newer players
perhaps it's the myth that people who pay more money are better and smarter at games than people who don't
perhaps people are just afraid of change

the point is that I think subscriber ego plays a role in making the situation worse

I don't think it's just SWTOR
I used the term "F2P kiddy" to describe the target of developers of F2P games, or developers of games that go F2P--a term describing a group of people with low standards who are gullible and fall into the trap of the F2P game.

Look, I don't give a shit about being special. I don't give a shit that the game's free now, nor do I think my subscription fees were wasted. I don't have any prejudice about new players--in fact, I love new players. New players means a game is healthy and not dying.

I'm not afraid of change, either--as long as the change is good change.

The change to F2P is not a good change. It's a bad change, end of discussion. It is possible to do free-to-play correctly, but no business will do it because it makes too much money for them to compromise their integrity in some way or another.

Microtransaction models only hurt the customer--and they think they're getting some kind of awesome deal. Sure, what an awesome deal you're getting--before F2P, you paid $15 per month.

After F2P, who knows how much you'll have to pay? Unless, of course, you're totally fine with a neutered, watered-down demo version of the game. Then you can play totally free.
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Old 2013-03-13, 11:27   Link #113
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
I don't know about now, but surely it was back then. That game was unrelenting and noob-unfriendly in the extreme.
In that case, Everquest One would laugh in your face.

-Players cannot solo pass level 6

-Players forced to group to take on mob "camps"

-If Death, you teleport back to your starting city, which could be HALF A WORLD AWAY.

-Exp loss are huge. To recover, you need to find your corpse, either call a Bard or Necro to cast a divination, know how to use the /LOC marco before you die, or have a necro/priest cast a expensive "summon corpse" spell, which cost a hugely expensive component.

-Oh, you don't have a mini map pointing where you are either. Or where your body/bodies are.

-If you die You SPAWN NUDE, so your gear are left at your death site, which could HALF A WORLD A WAY IN THE BOTTOM OF A OCEAN. Happy Corpse run. You are also target of all random mobs in the way.

-Mana regen is almost non existent, to regen in less than 10 minutes you have to have a spellbook in your face (cover the entire screen) and sit down to regen mana. Better hope you don't get ganked by a mob or a hostile player.

-Did I mention Your mana is usually only good for 7-8 spells?
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Old 2013-03-13, 11:36   Link #114
ArchmageXin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Such a noble purchase, one that players like you are just jumping at the chance to... sit back and let other people handle.



And I'm sure you don't have the maths to back that up. The reason why many sub games went F2P is not because they needed significant subscriber base due to the $15 fee, it was because they overspent themselves out of a reasonable time frame to recoup the cost during development. Do not confuse piss-poor project management with the viability of subscription model. Hell, EVE online started with a subscriber base that barely reached 5 digits.

Besides, this line of reasoning is more against F2P, where you need a far larger playerbase because the vast majority of them won't be paying a single cent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massive...e#cite_note-40

Quote:
The cost of developing a competitive commercial MMORPG title often exceeded $10 million by 2003.[39] These projects require multiple disciplines within game design and development such as 3D modeling, 2D art, animation, user interfaces, client/server engineering, database architecture, and network infrastructure.[40]
Another example could be http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_Studios Kingdom of Alumar, which had to scale to single player after not enough funding to finish @ a whopping bond of 75 million.

There are also costs such as just maintenance, IT, bug fix that also go upward of millions a month.

You think your $15 at average of a few hundred thousands of users is going to cover all that?

Graphic artists, engineer people, and IT equipment don't grow on trees.
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Old 2013-03-13, 11:39   Link #115
Sassarai
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That sounds a lot like FFXI back in the days.

-Can't solo-check

-Force grouping to camp for xp (Had to fight for mobs to get xp because camps were often over crowded)
Also could take hours to forum a group because of level range and class specific requirements. - check

- If Death, you teleport back to your starting city, which could be HALF A WORLD AWAY.

-Huge xp loss but no corpse run - check

-Everything aggros and can kill you even at max lvl - check

-A ton of hard battles that requires 18-64 people check

etc

So it wouldn't quite laugh in my face cuz I'm used to it.
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Old 2013-03-13, 11:48   Link #116
synaesthetic
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Games don't do that anymore because that's not where the money is. MMOs aren't nearly as small a niche genre as they used to be and there are quality of life improvements that are pretty much standard for the genre these days.

FFXI's changed a lot, too. It's possible to solo to the cap and you don't have to purely grind mobs to do it--you can quest-grind. The level caps for missions were lessened so that new players aren't completely locked out when the veteran player base has long since passed them.

The reason F2P works at all is because it depends upon low player expectations. It depends on players letting the developer/publisher get away with virtual murder because the game is "free" and beggars can't be choosers.

If F2P games were held to the same high standards as World of Warcraft, they would not make any money at all.
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Old 2013-03-13, 11:51   Link #117
Sassarai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by synaesthetic View Post
Games don't do that anymore because that's not where the money is. MMOs aren't nearly as small a niche genre as they used to be and there are quality of life improvements that are pretty much standard for the genre these days.
Yeah I know most people wouldn't want to go back to those days neither would I. 24hr spawns, 3hr windows, 3-7 day + chance of high quality pop. Yuck! Great experience but {Thanks for the offer but I'll have to pass!}
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Old 2013-03-13, 14:10   Link #118
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
In that case, Everquest One would laugh in your face.

-Players cannot solo pass level 6

-Players forced to group to take on mob "camps"

-If Death, you teleport back to your starting city, which could be HALF A WORLD AWAY.

-Exp loss are huge. To recover, you need to find your corpse, either call a Bard or Necro to cast a divination, know how to use the /LOC marco before you die, or have a necro/priest cast a expensive "summon corpse" spell, which cost a hugely expensive component.

-Oh, you don't have a mini map pointing where you are either. Or where your body/bodies are.

-If you die You SPAWN NUDE, so your gear are left at your death site, which could HALF A WORLD A WAY IN THE BOTTOM OF A OCEAN. Happy Corpse run. You are also target of all random mobs in the way.

-Mana regen is almost non existent, to regen in less than 10 minutes you have to have a spellbook in your face (cover the entire screen) and sit down to regen mana. Better hope you don't get ganked by a mob or a hostile player.

-Did I mention Your mana is usually only good for 7-8 spells?
Ah the good old days ... when making mistakes had consequences
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Old 2013-03-13, 14:16   Link #119
ArchmageXin
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Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Ah the good old days ... when making mistakes had consequences
Which carefully keep people like parents, professionals, girls and other "casual" gamers from access the market. Leaving anyone who made to level 20 to be hardcore and anyone above level 40 elite, and anyone who come close to the cap to be GOD LIKE~

I still remember in the early days of WoW a ton of EQ converts screaming murder on how easy and noob friendly WoW is, and demand WoW ramp up things like PVP-can loot other player's gear and gold, and death should be "serious business" that affect your "in game rep"

They melted apart fairly easily though. Blizz knew making your playerbase rage is the fastest way to make a franchise collapse. The soccer Mom and her two kids gaming together worth a lot more than one "elite fan"
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Old 2013-03-13, 15:28   Link #120
Kaisos Erranon
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Originally Posted by ArchmageXin View Post
Which carefully keep people like parents, professionals, girls and other "casual" gamers
That might be taken a certain way which may in turn paint you in a bad light...
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