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Old 2013-03-13, 20:45   Link #101
Frenchie
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I don't see how Lee-Neji-Tenten were a ready made team actually.
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Old 2013-03-13, 21:26   Link #102
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
First, you keep saying 'jinchuuriki' like it's a good thing
did i? no i didnt. it's also irrelevant to this discussion but whatever. it is however a key element to the village's safety and needs to be protected, which was not the case in the chapters you're basing your argument on which is why i'm saying it's best to look at the series as a whole.

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Also, Naruto at that time hadn't shown any talent for anything at all, other than pranks. There was no reason to assume he had some "amazing potential". Also, it's not like the Third Hokage was the only one who had a say in things, and Kakashi didn't even know the kid (other than being his sensei's son).
And no, "He is the fourth's son" is not proof of potential. Neither is being a jinchuuriki.
Ero-Senn1n said it all pretty much. Naruto showed a ton of talent. he defeated a chuunin-level opponent on iruka's level before he was assigned to kakashi's team. And it would be absolutely braindead of hiruzen, jiraiya, kakashi, etc... to not put 2 and 2 together that minato sealed the kyuubi inside his son who he saw potential in. they knew kushina was about to give birth and then BAM a new born sealed with the 4th's powers... hmm... must have just been some random blond baby minato found and entrusted the village's safety with...
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Old 2013-03-13, 23:14   Link #103
james0246
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
So you mean that the 3rd, Jiraiya, Kakashi and other who knew about what happened had to assume that the 4th hokage gave up his life to seal the kyuubi into a talentless boy who will be useless to konoha?
No, Minato et al sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto in hopes that he could one day be useful. They didn't know, and later on none of the aforementioned had any reason to assume (beyond hope) that he could live up to their expectations. Naruto, like any other 10-12 year old, was filled with potential, but any way of gauging his potential previous to his stunt with Kage Bushin would have shown Naruto to be a complete failure.

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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
Graduated by learning the kage bunshin in one night and beating a chuunin by himself. If a teacher can't see talent there then he should just quit.
First signs that there was hope, but whether or not he had Kage Bushin he would have still ended up on a team with Kakashi and Sasuke (and Sakura) due to the lackadaisical nature of team assignments (putting the best with the worst for no real reason).

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
This is a curious statement. Why exactly do you think Kakashi is a bad teacher? His students leaving had little to do with him or his teaching abilites. Sasuke left because of the cursed seal, jealousy and the fact that Orochimaru is just plain stronger than Kakashi. Naruto left Kakashi because of Akatsuki, mainly and because Jiraiya is just that good. Sakura left because Tsunade could teach her stuff Kakashi couldn't. None of that reflects badly on Kakashi.
Beyond the fact that Kakashi taught them one solid piece of shinobidom (basics of proper chakra control), he never was shown to teach them anything else of real value, especially not how to work as a team (beyond the rudimentary and assbackwards 'lesson of the week' he tried to give them during their first team assignment). Compared to Team 9 and 10, Team 7 had no structure, little teamwork and no real drive (Minato's Team 7 also had this problem).

Kakashi was a failure as a teacher (at least for a team). He was experienced and very intelligent but he had no knowledge on how to actually impart knowledge (for a team).

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You've contradicted yourself here. If everyone else was practically a ready made team, obviously what was left would be random in comparison.
No, that is a problem on Kishimoto's end. Beyond the slapdash excuse of placing the best with the worst (which makes little to no sense), there was no reason why Team 7 existed. They served no purpose in a military structure and what's worse they didn't even make sense as a cohesive unit (at least if they were all friends or known rivals there might be something worth seeing in their potential teamwork, otherwise they were just three random individual shoved together with no purpose and no real direction (which is a waste of talent and potential)). And in the end they weren't even properly trained on how to work together.

The Team placement was arbitrary, senseless and clearly plot contrived to create drama. Any competent military force would have never created the team even if they were the left-overs...
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:23   Link #104
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Beyond the fact that Kakashi taught them one solid piece of shinobidom (basics of proper chakra control), he never was shown to teach them anything else of real value, especially not how to work as a team
You're forgetting the D-rank missions they did, like catching Tora. Those are designed to foster a sense of teamwork, which is why we see Kakashi supervising them. It clearly worked too, since Naruto and Sasuke managed some decent teamwork against Zabuza.

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Compared to Team 9 and 10, Team 7 had no structure, little teamwork and no real drive (Minato's Team 7 also had this problem).
That's the thing. Comparing them to those guys isn't fair, because their abilities work extremely well together, so the teamwork is practically a given. Anyone would look sloppy next to them.

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No, that is a problem on Kishimoto's end. Beyond the slapdash excuse of placing the best with the worst (which makes little to no sense)
That's not quite fair. In Lee and Negi's case, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru's as well, it seems to have had a positive effect. If this tradition helped create at least 1 person even a third as good as Jiraiya, it's well worth it.

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there was no reason why Team 7 existed. They served no purpose in a military structure and what's worse they didn't even make sense as a cohesive unit (at least if they were all friends or known rivals there might be something worth seeing in their potential teamwork, otherwise they were just three random individual shoved together with no purpose and no real direction (which is a waste of talent and potential))
You're missing the point. As I said earlier, it's quite frankly impossible to expect every single group of graduates to be able to be broken up into cells with complimentary abilities like Team 8 and 10. Most groups won't be ready-made like that. Part of being a genin is to learn. You put people who might not work well immediately on paper and see if they can learn teamwork

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And in the end they weren't even properly trained on how to work together.
To be fair, circumstances got in the way, the whole team was together, for what, 3 months or so?

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The Team placement was arbitrary, senseless and clearly plot contrived to create drama. Any competent military force would have never created the team even if they were the left-overs...
We only saw the 12 of the graduates, and if the other 9 went into teams, what should they have done with the rest of them?
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Old 2013-03-14, 02:41   Link #105
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Kakashi was a failure as a teacher (at least for a team). He was experienced and very intelligent but he had no knowledge on how to actually impart knowledge (for a team).
To be fair with the poor guy it was the first time in his life he had to teach kids and he didn't ask for it, it was Sandaime who tasked him with looking after Naruto and then Jiraiya who told him to focus on Sasuke while he took care of Naruto during the Chuunin exam.
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Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5 View Post
I've read pretty much everything till this page so i really dont understand the majority talking about a certain itachi with him guessing things right. (who cares about a correct prophecy?)
It's more of a discussion about the old stances of the fanbase on some issues as far I'm concerned . And boredom. And no chapter this week which always allow for more of topic. And boredom.
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i skimmed through them before i posted that most people didn't agree just to make sure i was right. i was.
There were discussions about Tobi possessing Zetsu parts 3 years ago, a year and a half before you even made this account so I'm really not sure what you're talking about.
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so basic that it was basically just me and Hiking_Bear against everyone else...
First there were more than two people who believed that Obito was part of the picture somehow, secondly it wasn't you and Hiking_Bear against the world because you didn't have the same opinion than him on the subject in the first place. He defended his idea(s), you defended your owns and your idea happened to be only vaguely related to what we eventually got. As I have pointed out (and which you didn't care to quote or reply) you thought and stated that Tobi being just Obito was a stupid theory.

Anyway I just can't fathom how you reached the conclusion that people are laughing at you because you made theories that turned out to be somewhat correct in the best of case.
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Old 2013-03-14, 09:42   Link #106
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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You're forgetting the D-rank missions they did, like catching Tora. Those are designed to foster a sense of teamwork, which is why we see Kakashi supervising them. It clearly worked too, since Naruto and Sasuke managed some decent teamwork against Zabuza.
Following a basic plan (you go high, I'll go low) is not real teamwork. Additionally, there was no teamwork in catching Tora in those early chapters. It was Naruto doing the work whilst everyone else mocked him.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
That's the thing. Comparing them to those guys isn't fair, because their abilities work extremely well together, so the teamwork is practically a given. Anyone would look sloppy next to them.
And that's my point exactly. In a military organization you would create teams based on individual abilities, not simply because you have left overs. Their pre-Genin years were the boot camp in which the instructors should have determined the individuals strengths and weaknesses, and then once they graduated the individuals should have been placed in teams based around those strengths and weaknesses. Kishimoto failed at coming up with a reason for Team 7's existence beyond the plot contrived drama their grouping would provide.

Realistically, Kishimoto might have had a basic idea for Team 7. As a General team (which is also a stupid idea to begin with), Naruto could have been Ninjutsu, Sasuke Taijutsu and Sakura Genjutsu. Sadly, even this basic idea (which was at least brought up as a possibility during the first training session with Kakashi) was never dealt with.

Truthfully, if Sakura wasn't placed on the team, I think they would have been more cohesive. Don't get me wrong, I like Sakura, and honestly none of the other known female genin would have worked, but someone like Shikimaru or Shino would have been a great addition to Team 7, able to balance out the personalities while helping to sustain overall levels of performance.

That being said, there is something to the basic logic as to why Kakashi got Sasuke. And Naruto is debatable (ideally Yamato should have always been training Naruto), but it is at least somewhat understandable. Sadly, he had no reason to even try to teach Sakura (and he never did).

Team 7 was a plot contrived overly dramatic team literally created to fail. Their break-up was obvious from the start and was even readily apparent by the characters very placement in the Team.

edit: To put it in perspective, every single "Team 7" (the best with the worst) that we know of has ended in abject failure for one reason or another (there are dizzying highs, but the lows are abysmal). If this always happens, doesn't that mean maybe you should change something?

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
That's not quite fair. In Lee and Negi's case, and Jiraiya and Orochimaru's as well, it seems to have had a positive effect. If this tradition helped create at least 1 person even a third as good as Jiraiya, it's well worth it.
The same "positive" effect was also found with Kakashi-Obito and Naruto-Sasuke. I am not disputing the relationships forged due to their forced involvement, I am merely pointing out the ludicrous plot contrived nature of their involvement.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
You're missing the point. As I said earlier, it's quite frankly impossible to expect every single group of graduates to be able to be broken up into cells with complimentary abilities like Team 8 and 10. Most groups won't be ready-made like that.
Not really. Everyone has their own personal strengths and weaknesses, and their teams were created accordingly. Kishimoto, for whatever reason, simply decided not to make any complimentary abilities/personalities for Team 7. They just were.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
Part of being a genin is to learn. You put people who might not work well immediately on paper and see if they can learn teamwork.
Again, that is stupid. If you are potentially going in to live or death situations, then you need some sort of cohesion in a team. Without that cohesion, you're just random individuals working toward a common goal.

That being said, part of the development of a genin is to learn and study with their team. Sadly, Kakashi had little experience, or simply couldn't properly teach how to work as an efficient team.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
To be fair, circumstances got in the way, the whole team was together, for what, 3 months or so?
Fair enough. Still, there's a lot you can learn in that amount of time, but sadly he wasted that time with the month just for Sasuke, the mission to Wave, and seemingly lazing around during the early days.

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Originally Posted by Endscape View Post
We only saw the 12 of the graduates, and if the other 9 went into teams, what should they have done with the rest of them?
Again, this was Kishimoto's fault for not properly explaining team placements and possibly not actually understanding what a teams purpose is...

Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-14 at 11:31.
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Old 2013-03-14, 09:48   Link #107
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
No, Minato et al sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto in hopes that he could one day be useful. They didn't know, and later on none of the aforementioned had any reason to assume (beyond hope) that he could live up to their expectations. Naruto, like any other 10-12 year old, was filled with potential, but any way of gauging his potential previous to his stunt with Kage Bushin would have shown Naruto to be a complete failure.
what about his genetics? genetics have proven to be an essential factor in ninja's potential. naruto was the son of the fourth hokage and of a powerful uzumaki (close relation to the senju). how is that not more potential than any other 10-12 year old?
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Old 2013-03-14, 10:04   Link #108
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
what about his genetics? genetics have proven to be an essential factor in ninja's potential. naruto was the son of the fourth hokage and of a powerful uzumaki (close relation to the senju). how is that not more potential than any other 10-12 year old?
Genetics? Well, lets talk to Ms. Hinata, the heir of the current most powerful clan in Konoha, and ridiculously weaker than her other known relatives not to mention most other ninjas. Genetics are not everything. Just look at Itama or all the dead Uchiha, or all the dead Senju, Uzumaki, the countless bloodline users killed in Mist, etc. Just because you are predisposed to potential greatness doesn't mean you will ever live up to that potential (Obito falls in to this chategory somewhat; he became great but only through outside factors). Everything pre-Kage Bushin showed Naruto having a simple and average existence. That's not to say the potential wasn't there, it just wasn't shown in any observable way (which is a long line of peoples faults, all the way from Naruto needlessly acting like an idiot to get attention, to the villagers needlessly condemning him, up to Sarutobi never teaching him correctly or even making an effort to make sure he was taught correctly).
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Old 2013-03-14, 12:20   Link #109
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Genetics? Well, lets talk to Ms. Hinata, the heir of the current most powerful clan in Konoha, and ridiculously weaker than her other known relatives not to mention most other ninjas. Genetics are not everything.
i never said genetics are everything. (although kishi has pretty much said this over the past few years) also, hinata has gotten considerably stronger over the years and seems to be one of the premier hyuugas now. the hyuugas aren't that powerful in the scheme of things. i'm not sure what you're expecting out of them. neji was their genius and he was recently reduced to a human shield.

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Just look at Itama or all the dead Uchiha, or all the dead Senju, Uzumaki, the countless bloodline users killed in Mist, etc. Just because you are predisposed to potential greatness doesn't mean you will ever live up to that potential (Obito falls in to this chategory somewhat; he became great but only through outside factors).
i totally agree. no offense, but i dont think you understand the meaning of the word 'potential'. it specifically doesnt mean that a person will live up to it. it is merely what they could live up to.

potential: 1: possible, as opposed to actual. 2: capable of being or becoming
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Old 2013-03-14, 12:49   Link #110
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i totally agree. no offense, but i dont think you understand the meaning of the word 'potential'. it specifically doesnt mean that a person will live up to it. it is merely what they could live up to.
You've misunderstood my sentence and the argument (it's my fault, it was badly worded). Just because Naruto has seemingly genetic superiority and the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything if he was never shown to be worth anything. Pre-Kage Bushin Naruto had no known observable potential. Many may have hoped he had potential due to birth or status (these are quantifiable reasons to assume Naruto might be worth something - potential), but based on observable data there was no reason to assume that Naruto actually was capable of anything (he seemed to fail at everything, so why would anyone assume otherwise?). Genetics, etc are important factors, they're just not the be-all end-all (though I do agree with the implicit supposition that most elite are already connected to greatness through genetics).
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Old 2013-03-14, 13:15   Link #111
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You've misunderstood my sentence and the argument (it's my fault, it was badly worded). Just because Naruto has seemingly genetic superiority and the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything if he was never shown to be worth anything. Pre-Kage Bushin Naruto had no known observable potential. Many may have hoped he had potential due to birth or status (these are quantifiable reasons to assume Naruto might be worth something - potential), but based on observable data there was no reason to assume that Naruto actually was capable of anything (he seemed to fail at everything, so why would anyone assume otherwise?). Genetics, etc are important factors, they're just not the be-all end-all (though I do agree with the implicit supposition that most elite are already connected to greatness through genetics).
ok. yes, i agree with this. the thing is that we were discussing his placement onto team 7 though and the kage bunshin incident happened prior to that. so there was observable potential to be seen in naruto prior to him ever even meeting kakashi
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Old 2013-03-14, 13:19   Link #112
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No, Minato et al sealed the Kyuubi in Naruto in hopes that he could one day be useful. They didn't know, and later on none of the aforementioned had any reason to assume (beyond hope) that he could live up to their expectations. Naruto, like any other 10-12 year old, was filled with potential, but any way of gauging his potential previous to his stunt with Kage Bushin would have shown Naruto to be a complete failure.
Well if someone defines "hope" by saying it's when the hokage gives up his life to bet the future of his village and probably the whole world on it then i think "hope" is much much more than just relying on luck. But i understand your reasoning, it doesn't make less sense to look at it that way. Kishimoto often creates situations where someone who should be wrong just can't be wrong as it seems that the laws of this magical world define a very different logic than what the real world has. I mean almost all characters in the Narutoverse act irrationally, some less and some more, but then it often turns out that apparently their actions in the Narutoverse are considered to be rational and responsible For instance the 4th hokage easily beats the mysterious masked man (who turns out to be his ex-apprentice) but immedately after this short encounter he comes to the conclusion that he and Kushina have to die and leave their child alone in the forest (from where Tobi just teleported away and could teleport back at any time and kidnap the child along with the kyuubi, or he could return at any later time to kidnap Naruto from a village that has no strong kage any more) just because he somehow realized in that brief time that his son must be the savior who's the only one that will be able to beat the masked man. And the list of such decisions just goes on...

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Well, lets talk to Ms. Hinata, the heir of the current most powerful clan in Konoha, and ridiculously weaker than her other known relatives not to mention most other ninjas.
I can't agree with that, she became a very good ninja by now. Her main problem was that she was shy and didn't have self conficence, but that doesn't mean she was some talentless girl. It just means that her father was an idiot who couldn't see any value in Hinata and gave up on her. Sure she doesn't have as much talent as Neji or her younger sister, but she's good and has some pretty impressive special moves of her clan. If she was not a Hyuuga then she would be much weaker, she would need a lot more talent (like Minato and others who didn't have a special clan or genetics) to stand against those who have special clan secret jutsu (Shikamaru and his team) or even special genetic abilities (Hyuuga, Uchiha, Kaguya, ....). But since Hinata has a genetic ability and also special clan jutsu we can assume that even with her moderate ninja talent she's stronger than most of the ninja that ever existed (for example the 60-70 thousand alliance ninja who are already dead).

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Old 2013-03-14, 13:26   Link #113
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ok. yes, i agree with this. the thing is that we were discussing his placement onto team 7 though and the kage bunshin incident happened prior to that. so there was observable potential to be seen in naruto prior to him ever even meeting kakashi
As long as Naruto was still the lowest grade in the class, he would have always been placed on Team 7 with the highest grade in the class (Sasuke). That's just how Team 7 works.

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Kishimoto often creates situations where someone who should be wrong just can't be wrong as it seems that the laws of this magical world define a very different logic than what the real world has. I mean almost all characters in the Narutoverse act irrationally, some less and some more, but then it often turns out that apparently their actions in the Narutoverse are considered to be rational and responsible
LOL, There is a fair bit of truth in what you've written ...
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Old 2013-03-14, 14:49   Link #114
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As long as Naruto was still the lowest grade in the class, he would have always been placed on Team 7 with the highest grade in the class (Sasuke). That's just how Team 7 works.
but that's looking at things the way they were in the first few chapters which accounts for roughly 5-10% of the total story and was about a decade ago and retconned into oblivion. back then, konoha didnt mind sending their jinchuuriki on a mission where ninja at haku and zabuza's levels were serious threats. if a kage-level ninja or akatsuki member was there, konoha would have lost the 9 tails easily.

i look at things based on the overall story, or if you want to look at it as the latest 90% or so of the story then that's fine. in the overall story, students are not given teachers based on lowest and highest grades. it is no coincidence that kakashi, minato's best pupil, was given minato's son as a student. nor is it a coincidence that he was given sasuke who he could help with the sharingan regardless of whether sasuke was top of the class or not. that old way of thinking makes no sense given the story the way it is portrayed now.
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:06   Link #115
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but that's looking at things the way they were in the first few chapters which accounts for roughly 5-10% of the total story and was about a decade ago and retconned into oblivion. back then, konoha didnt mind sending their jinchuuriki on a mission where ninja at haku and zabuza's levels were serious threats. if a kage-level ninja or akatsuki member was there, konoha would have lost the 9 tails easily.

i look at things based on the overall story, or if you want to look at it as the latest 90% or so of the story then that's fine. in the overall story, students are not given teachers based on lowest and highest grades. it is no coincidence that kakashi, minato's best pupil, was given minato's son as a student. nor is it a coincidence that he was given sasuke who he could help with the sharingan regardless of whether sasuke was top of the class or not. that old way of thinking makes no sense given the story the way it is portrayed now.
I'm not sure what your argument is, but if we're looking at this from a story perspective, Yamato, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Shikimaru's father (just due to his overall intelligence plus his general placement within the military structure), and a few others were all better candidates for Naruto's patronage and tutelage. Kakahsi knew nothing about Jinchuuriki, he knew nothing about how to train Jinchuuriki, and it seems he never even attempted to try (the greatest instruction Kakashi ever gave Naruto occurred 2 years after the team collapsed). As I've already mentioned, Kakashi's only real 'fit' was with Sasuke (training him how to use the Sharingan), otherwise he was not the best choice for the Team and his failure as a teacher only adds to my conclusion that the team was doomed to fail from the onset (just like most of the known Team 7s from the past).
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Old 2013-03-14, 15:38   Link #116
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I'm not sure what your argument is, but if we're looking at this from a story perspective, Yamato, Sarutobi, Jiraiya, Shikimaru's father (just due to his overall intelligence plus his general placement within the military structure), and a few others were all better candidates for Naruto's patronage and tutelage.
well my argument was glossed over in your previous post that was apparently responding to it, so i started talking about what you seemed to want to direct the conversation into my previous argument was that naruto showed potential prior to his induction into team 7 which i think is proven at this point. i hope at least. what i'm saying now is exactly what you are saying just using other examples. that if you want to discuss naruto based on the first few chapters, then not much will make any sense, particularly naruto being a jinchuuriki, like i said to Dengar earlier:

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it depends on how you want to look at the series. i try to look at it on a whole. you apparently are looking at it based on the first few chapters. if you do that (which you're welcome to do of course) then not much concerning naruto will make any sense, particularly him being a jinchuuriki.
if the beginning of naruto were to make sense with what we know now, then yamato should have been by his side at all times and hiruzen should have kept naruto better protected in the village and away from missions that could have resulted in him being potentially attacked and stolen. hence why i've been saying that using the beginning of the series as proof of anything is pretty much useless
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Old 2013-03-14, 18:29   Link #117
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Just because Naruto has seemingly genetic superiority and the Kyuubi doesn't mean anything if he was never shown to be worth anything. Pre-Kage Bushin Naruto had no known observable potential. Many may have hoped he had potential due to birth or status (these are quantifiable reasons to assume Naruto might be worth something - potential), but based on observable data there was no reason to assume that Naruto actually was capable of anything (he seemed to fail at everything, so why would anyone assume otherwise?). Genetics, etc are important factors, they're just not the be-all end-all (though I do agree with the implicit supposition that most elite are already connected to greatness through genetics).
It seems a bit strange that you're bringing up examples in this thread where genetics don't necessarily guarantee anything (like Hinata), yet a couple chapters ago you seemed pretty adamant stating that Naruto possessing his genetics and a “nuclear bomb” in his stomach meant a win(or at least him being on par with anyone he's faced I take it) --so much so that you didn't consider Naruto ever to be outclassed or even an underdog at all for the entire series.
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Old 2013-03-14, 18:54   Link #118
Hunter
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Hinata is a good example of genetic inferiority anyway : she's female and in this manga that's a virtually insurmountable obstacle.
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Old 2013-03-14, 19:19   Link #119
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Hinata is a good example of genetic inferiority anyway : she's female and in this manga that's a virtually insurmountable obstacle.
lol, can't argue with that
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Old 2013-03-14, 22:39   Link #120
james0246
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Originally Posted by Owlman View Post
It seems a bit strange that you're bringing up examples in this thread where genetics don't necessarily guarantee anything (like Hinata), yet a couple chapters ago you seemed pretty adamant stating that Naruto possessing his genetics and a “nuclear bomb” in his stomach meant a win(or at least him being on par with anyone he's faced I take it) --so much so that you didn't consider Naruto ever to be outclassed or even an underdog at all for the entire series.
As I said, just because Naruto had these amazing gifts doesn't mean anything to the team placements, especially since he was never shown to actually posses any of these gifts growing up. The conclusion for Naruto is obvious after the first chapter (why I dispute the notion that he was once an underdog), but his actions before that chapter never indicated anything but failure to anyone watching him, especially if they had no knowledge of his heritage. I never disputed Naruto's genetic superiority (in fact I said that most of the elite are undoubtedly connected to greatness through genetics), rather I emphasized that his superiority was not truly observable until he performed Kage Bushin.

To simplify, Naruto had hidden potential that no one could assume existed simply because he was never observed to do anything amazing. Then he did something amazing.

(btw, I don't think I ever said outclassed.)
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