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Old 2013-03-08, 20:12   Link #81
grey_1960
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In the U.S. we are only allowed 4 admirals at a time. There are 160 flag officers at a time in the Navy. If Oda is following some of these rules then the Marines(One piece Universe) should have no problems filling in the Admiral ranks without destroying the quality of the title. How many other Vice Admirals out their who were never given the chance like Garp was to become Admiral.

Likelihood and Odds
At Marine Ford War there was 100,000 elite troops. The WG alone is consisted of 170 nations. Your telling me you can’t get at least two replacements for Akoiji and Akainu or even fill in four admirals positions? I don’t think resources and likelihood are a problem either.

Story Line
Oda has built consistency and pretty good rules in the story. I feel like if Fujitora is weakened it will hurt the story line. In my view it will destroy some of the importance and relevance to some of the character building. For instance how about the training Luffy did over two years. Then you have the achievement and the good feeling that comes with it when you play by the same rules has everyone else. If you dumb down the Admiral just so Luffy can beat him then it starts to negatively affect other parts of the story. Keep with the rules and consistentency, Luffy does not always have to win everything. It would be just has interesting if Fujitora routed the straw hats and foiled there plans. Then the straw hats (attack team) would be forced to regroup at Green Bit were Law and Dalfamingo are making the drop off. What happens when Fujitora follows them to Green bit and sees Law, Ceaser and Dalfamingo? It would be like a three way death match. I wonder if Green Bit will be wiped off the map in this arch? We have seen giant ark threatening an Fisherman Island and Law cutting a whole mountain at punk hazard. Maybe Fujitora will make green Bit disappear. Heck that may be were the factory is hidden since no one can get there by boat. Imagine Fujitora destroying the factory instead of the Straw hats. Also watch CC get caught in the whole along with the factory. Daflamingo would be one pissed man. I could see Daflamingo shaking his fist. "Damn you Fujitora!". That would be funny to see.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2013-03-08 at 20:27.
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Old 2013-03-08, 22:09   Link #82
marvelB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
What happens when Fujitora follows them to Green bit and sees Law, Ceaser and Dalfamingo?

Of course, this would be under the assumption that Fujitora is NOT the blind man, would it not?


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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
It's not so much the fact that Akainu shouldn't try for the best quality Admiral he can acquire, so much as does he have the necessary resources to have the best quality Admiral possible?

As far as the resources comment goes, I'm pretty much with the others who said that the WG/marines wouldn't keep all of their eggs in one basket. In fact, we already DO know that the WG has powerful forces aside from the marines (CP9, Impel Down wardens like Magellan, etc.). So it may very well be the case that the marines left a few of their stronger forces to stand guard in the NW in case of any impending attacks from Dragon or whoever else. Heck, that doesn't even have to apply to admiral-level soldiers, either (remember, we never saw Vergo at Marineford, either). So who's to say those particular resources never existed before the skip?



Now as to why we never heard of those new admirals before now..... well, they could have been transferred from those other positions that I mentioned earlier (CP9, ID warden), or they could have come out of retirement as well, as Dengar suggested. And it's not like it's impossible for someone in a different government branch to transfer to the marines, anyway..... recall that Sentoumaru was originally introduced as Vegapunk's bodyguard, yet after the skip he became a marine. Similar cases could apply for Fujitora and the other new admiral(s), as well.
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Old 2013-03-08, 23:28   Link #83
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It's kinda stupid for Akainu if he send blind old man to tail/capture/eliminate Law & Strawhat Co. knowing he might not be able to identify them

So I believe Fujitora (assuming that old man really is Fujitora) has some sort of ability to identify his enemy

or a sidekick to help him identify his target but he ditched his sidekick away and went gambling by himself
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Old 2013-03-09, 07:31   Link #84
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I semi agree with James.
I can understand if the marines had a strong "egg" stored away during the war, but if there are more admirals popping up like that it would really be a creative ass pull from Oda. There has to be a limit for unknown strong characters that are on the marines side but never mentioned.
Thus it makes more sense for the story if the new admiral(s) have yet to fully grow in terms of strength and power. It's really a tad bit ridiculous if there are that many island wrecking monsters like Akainu and Aokiji.
Though if the blind man really is an admiral he is probably that super strong "egg". Considering the way Akainu talked about his dispatch as if the problem was already solved or would be in an instant. Though he seems a bit outmatched with the strongest SH's all together.
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Old 2013-03-09, 08:52   Link #85
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
I feel like if Fujitora is weakened it will hurt the story line. In my view it will destroy some of the importance and relevance to some of the character building. For instance how about the training Luffy did over two years. Then you have the achievement and the good feeling that comes with it when you play by the same rules has everyone else. If you dumb down the Admiral just so Luffy can beat him then it starts to negatively affect other parts of the story.
You do know that there were disparities amongst the original admiral trio, right? Albeit, the differences were infinitesimal to the point where they were practically negligible, but they were still there nonetheless. It's been proven at least that Akainu>Aokiji. And yes, their DF powers were evenly matched as stated by Jinbe and film Z proves this as well when we see Aokiji freezing molten magma. So there were no excuses for Aokiji's loss. Akainu edged him out slightly. And with that being said, there will also most likely be small gaps in strength with these new admirals as well. Keep in mind that these guys just became admirals as well, so chances are they're still increasing in power ever so slightly. You think Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji, were just as strong as they are now when they first became admirals? I doubt it. It takes time to reach the pinnacle of one's strength and abilities.

And either way, Luffy is not beating an admiral right now, whether they be slightly below the original trio or not.

I think some people here are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying the WG doesn't have additional resources at their disposal, for I've already said that they definitely had reserves since not all of them were present during the Marineford war. That's very evident. I'm talking about the fighting caliber of those resources in direct comparison to the admirals. There's a difference.
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Old 2013-03-09, 10:28   Link #86
james0246
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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Guide lines
In the U.S. we are only allowed 4 admirals at a time. There are 160 flag officers at a time in the Navy. If Oda is following some of these rules then the Marines(One piece Universe) should have no problems filling in the Admiral ranks without destroying the quality of the title.
I thought it was 216 flag officers and 9 potential 4-Star (full) Admirals? Whatever the case, not all Fully ranked Admirals serve combat positions. There are Admirals in charge of Medicine, Logistics, Engineering, etc (I don't know all the exact areas). Additionally, promotions are almost always based on seniority rather than necessarily 'skill' (though skill, of course, is almost always emphasized during the initial promotion stages). So, the US isn't necessarily a good comparison.

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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
How many other Vice Admirals out their who were never given the chance like Garp was to become Admiral.
Garp turned down the job. Repeatedly. But the idea of one or two other highly powerful VAs is something I already discussed. It's the idea that there could be 3 or 4 that seems a bit unreasonable to me.

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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
At Marine Ford War there was 100,000 elite troops. The WG alone is consisted of 170 nations. Your telling me you can’t get at least two replacements for Akoiji and Akainu or even fill in four admirals positions? I don’t think resources and likelihood are a problem either.
The forces gathered at Marineford represented the absolute strongest military force possible for that time. All the Admirals were present, and most of the Vice Admirals we already knew about that were given high ranking positions (Buster Call VAs). The military might of the WG was going all out for this war. So, while there were undoubtedly troops stationed other places in the world (btw, the 170 nations aren't all simply guarded by the marines, each nation generally has their own fighting force, which could conceivably have their own uber-powerful Admiral-level people), the likelihood of their being 3-4 Admiral-level characters already in the marines just floating in the ether elsewhere seems a bit preposterous. We already know the basic outline of the world, so we also know just who needs to be watched closely, but we also know that the WG wanted overwhelming odds in their favour. So, if the WG was putting the best out there, it seems unlikely that those left behind (the skeleton crew) would be equal to the best (imho).

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Originally Posted by grey_1960 View Post
Oda has built consistency and pretty good rules in the story. I feel like if Fujitora is weakened it will hurt the story line. In my view it will destroy some of the importance and relevance to some of the character building. For instance how about the training Luffy did over two years. Then you have the achievement and the good feeling that comes with it when you play by the same rules has everyone else. If you dumb down the Admiral just so Luffy can beat him then it starts to negatively affect other parts of the story.
Luffy already started at the lower end of the Shichibukai (let's face it, Crocodile's weakness was water (of which the vast majority of the world is covered in) or really any liquid, and that's pretty damn lame; and Moria was quite literally hoisted on his own petard), so why not the Admirals? Just because they would be potentially weaker than the initial Admirals (which they will be anyway) doesn't mean that they couldn't destroy 99% of the pirates in the world. Hell, no matter which Admiral or Yonkou falls first, they will likely always be deemed weaker in the eyes of the fans simply because they went down first.

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
So who's to say those particular resources never existed before the skip?
You misunderstand my use of the word "resource". It applied only to characters deemed Admiral-level.

To put it in perspective, the standing force at Marineford was only 100,000. That is nothing, especially when you consider that the war in Alabasta had 1,000,000 fighting (all mooks, but still fighting). Undoubtedly The marines total size is far closer to a million if not several million (since the marines/navy also represent a ground army as well...unless Oda is still going to introduce Generals). So, I've always suspected that there were probably marines scattered throughout the world. My question was how many Admiral-level marines could be out there but not participate in the war (which had the greatest military might present). Maybe your answer will be different, but my answer was two (based on currently known info concerning the world structure).

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
Now as to why we never heard of those new admirals before now..... well, they could have been transferred from those other positions that I mentioned earlier (CP9, ID warden),
I like the idea of transferring from the WG itself rather than the marines (Though I question why Akainu would consider them loyal enough to be Admirals). Undoubtedly the City of Kings (whatever it is called), has their own Admiral-level character(s) or device used to directly protect the city from invaders. And I wouldn't be surprised if there were one or two others scattered around.

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Originally Posted by marvelB View Post
or they could have come out of retirement as well,
I hate this idea. Oda has already spent two movies focusing on characters coming out of retirement (well, they were old enough to be retired at least), I don't want him to spend any more time on this idea. There are already enough old people in the series that can kick ass, we don't need to create even older characters that have already retired coming out of the woodwork just to combat Luffy. (I don't know what your obsession is with Luffy kicking old people around, but I do not share it .)

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And it's not like it's impossible for someone in a different government branch to transfer to the marines, anyway..... recall that Sentoumaru was originally introduced as Vegapunk's bodyguard, yet after the skip he became a marine. Similar cases could apply for Fujitora and the other new admiral(s), as well.
I wanted Magellan to be a high-ranking VA. Sadly, Oda didn't like the character enough...

Last edited by james0246; 2013-03-09 at 10:50.
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Old 2013-03-09, 11:23   Link #87
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Anyone else think the ink in the bottom right hand corner of the map Law shows to the Strawhat crew is Bebo's paw print?

Last edited by golgo13; 2013-03-09 at 11:28. Reason: grammar
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Old 2013-03-09, 14:38   Link #88
marvelB
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I wanted Magellan to be a high-ranking VA. Sadly, Oda didn't like the character enough...

I share your sentiments on this one, my friend. Though I wouldn't go as far as to say it's because Oda didn't like the character enough, so much as it is that he probably wanted to focus more on the new ones.



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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
You misunderstand my use of the word "resource". It applied only to characters deemed Admiral-level.

I know you were specifically referring to admiral-level fighters, but I just included marines around the VA level as well to, again, try to prove my point that the marines wouldn't keep all of their upper-tier eggs in one basket. Of course I don't doubt at all that the best forces were stationed at Marineford, but that still wouldn't mean that a few badasses could have been left on standby in the New World just to be on the safe side.....




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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
There are already enough old people in the series that can kick ass, we don't need to create even older characters that have already retired coming out of the woodwork just to combat Luffy. (I don't know what your obsession is with Luffy kicking old people around, but I do not share it .)


It's not so much about Luffy smacking around seniors as it is about the seniors being the ones to smack around fools left and right. I'm just a fan of the whole "badass geezer" trope, is all.....
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Old 2013-03-09, 23:16   Link #89
solidguy
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The world government should have some sort of next gen development program out there to keep the supply of admirals coming. The OG trio were once VA's as someone already pointed out. If there's 2 new admirals I'd guess that one of them would be an older marine coming out of retirement kinda deal and the other would be a younger VA who's been fast tracked up. Solves the problem of there being "too many tough marine's" out there because 1 old guy coming out of retirement is cool but 2 is just shit. A young gun marine would also serve to kinda parallel the young gen of pirates stuffing shit up in the new world.
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Old 2013-03-09, 23:36   Link #90
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http://images.nationalgeographic.com...10_600x450.jpg

fujitora holes
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Old 2013-03-10, 00:55   Link #91
grey_1960
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Originally Posted by Blackbeard D. Kuma View Post
You do know that there were disparities amongst the original admiral trio, right? Albeit, the differences were infinitesimal to the point where they were practically negligible, but they were still there nonetheless. It's been proven at least that Akainu>Aokiji. And yes, their DF powers were evenly matched as stated by Jinbe and film Z proves this as well when we see Aokiji freezing molten magma. So there were no excuses for Aokiji's loss. Akainu edged him out slightly. And with that being said, there will also most likely be small gaps in strength with these new admirals as well. Keep in mind that these guys just became admirals as well, so chances are they're still increasing in power ever so slightly. You think Akainu, Kizaru, and Aokiji, were just as strong as they are now when they first became admirals? I doubt it. It takes time to reach the pinnacle of one's strength and abilities.

And either way, Luffy is not beating an admiral right now, whether they be slightly below the original trio or not.

I think some people here are misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying the WG doesn't have additional resources at their disposal, for I've already said that they definitely had reserves since not all of them were present during the Marineford war. That's very evident. I'm talking about the fighting caliber of those resources in direct comparison to the admirals. There's a difference.
The Title Admiral
I have a certain expectation of the Admirals, so for me its either they are admirals or they aren’t. There can not be anything in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I thought it was 216 flag officers and 9 potential 4-Star (full) Admirals? Whatever the case, not all Fully ranked Admirals serve combat positions. There are Admirals in charge of Medicine, Logistics, Engineering, etc (I don't know all the exact areas). Additionally, promotions are almost always based on seniority rather than necessarily 'skill' (though skill, of course, is almost always emphasized during the initial promotion stages). So, the US isn't necessarily a good comparison.
The Foundation and inspiration
My source for the numbers of flag officer and Admirals came from wiki. That not reliable, so you are probably right. I was merely establishing a foundation of how ranks are formed. Oda does acquire a lot of his inspiration from real life things. Look at Dressrosa a lot of people on the forum compared it to Spain. U.S. may not be the best comparison, but I personally don’t know which navy old or new would be. A lot of the traditions, rankings, technology, terminology, and concepts were built through centuries of sailing the seas. No one country can claim that they were 100% responsible for everything. I don’t know if there really is any one true Navy you could say that Oda has copied or was heavily influenced by. Fact, the U.S. Navy did have 4 people who once held the title of Fleet Admiral and the Admiral ranks is the second highest in the U.S. Navy. Finally, most if not all promotions are not based on seniority. Ranking is based on competence first. You have to be able to do the job and past the test required of you. If both individuals are competent and equal in results then seniority will play a role. Seniority is not affective promotion tool.

Source for Fleet Admiral :http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq36-1.htm

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
The forces gathered at Marineford represented the absolute strongest military force possible for that time. All the Admirals were present, and most of the Vice Admirals we already knew about that were given high ranking positions (Buster Call VAs). The military might of the WG was going all out for this war. So, while there were undoubtedly troops stationed other places in the world (btw, the 170 nations aren't all simply guarded by the marines, each nation generally has their own fighting force, which could conceivably have their own uber-powerful Admiral-level people), the likelihood of their being 3-4 Admiral-level characters already in the marines just floating in the ether elsewhere seems a bit preposterous. We already know the basic outline of the world, so we also know just who needs to be watched closely, but we also know that the WG wanted overwhelming odds in their favour. So, if the WG was putting the best out there, it seems unlikely that those left behind (the skeleton crew) would be equal to the best (imho).
Why join the WG in the first place?
You don’t have to military guarding or stationed in the country. 170 countries are part of the WG organization, meaning they have a vested interest. So I don’t see were the WG would have a hard time of finding recruits or Admiral Level people who are interested in serving the Marines. Second how many other people like Zephyr (One Piece Z Flim), Sengoku, and Garp gave up there position but were convinced in staying has instructors? Zephyr (One Piece Z Flim) was in his late 30s Mid 40s when he gave up his Admiral rank after the family tragedy. Would they have been pulled into the MarineFord War if they were instructors or advisors? Also if your Admiral level, there is a good chance you going to be old. Being an admiral means you are going to dedicate most of your life to the service. Most will probably never reach the rank until they are in there 50s or 60s. It is just the nature of the title itself. That also goes for most top fighters on the pirates side too.

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Luffy already started at the lower end of the Shichibukai (let's face it, Crocodile's weakness was water (of which the vast majority of the world is covered in) or really any liquid, and that's pretty damn lame; and Moria was quite literally hoisted on his own petard), so why not the Admirals? Just because they would be potentially weaker than the initial Admirals (which they will be anyway) doesn't mean that they couldn't destroy 99% of the pirates in the world. Hell, no matter which Admiral or Yonkou falls first, they will likely always be deemed weaker in the eyes of the fans simply because they went down first.
Shichibukai, Admirals, and Good Story
Shichibukai are all over the place when it comes to power. They range from Buggy to Daflamingo. The Admirals at least have standards, there powers do not fluctuate nearly has much has the Shichibukai. The Marine Rank system prevent the huge power differences you see in the Shichibukai. With the Ranking system I don't see how Fujitora could turn out weaker then the other admirals. Personally I doubt the Admirals will bring FullBody in the their ranks anytime soon. I think your right that, no matter which Admiral or Yonkou falls first, they will be deemed weaker in the eyes of the fan, but I also think fans can tell when a story is being contrived and placed there to make the main character look good.

Last edited by grey_1960; 2013-03-10 at 01:05.
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Old 2013-03-10, 01:19   Link #92
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The Title Admiral
I have a certain expectation of the Admirals, so for me its either they are admirals or they arenít. There can not be anything in between.
There are stronger and weaker admirals though, Kuzan and Akainu for example. There isn't a perfect, equal trinity at play here. And I'm willing to wager that Kizaru is the weakest of the three
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Old 2013-03-10, 01:31   Link #93
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There are stronger and weaker admirals though, Kuzan and Akainu for example. There isn't a perfect, equal trinity at play here. And I'm willing to wager that Kizaru is the weakest of the three
Hard to determine. Kizaru didn't even sweat or got scratched during the war. I understand that he didn't face monsters like WB though.

And it's all about matchups. Luffy could beat Enel, but Enel's power is clearly more destructive, even though it's ineffective against Luffy.

There's also Logia tiers. Magma beats Fire, and I guess that Ice and Fire are at the same tiers, so I'd say that Kuzan fared pretty well considering how Akainu can pretty much nullify ice, as shown during the war.

In the end, only battle experience, creativity and Haki count when the abilities are similar.
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Old 2013-03-10, 10:14   Link #94
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There are stronger and weaker admirals though, Kuzan and Akainu for example. There isn't a perfect, equal trinity at play here. And I'm willing to wager that Kizaru is the weakest of the three
My sentiments exactly.

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In the end, only battle experience, creativity and Haki count when the abilities are similar.
This pretty much sums things up when two combatants are virtually equal.

----

For some reason, some people here are not pleased with the possibility of the newer admirals being SLIGHTLY (yes, I've said this word for the umpteenth time now; Grey, I'm looking at you ) weaker than the original trio. The admirals we know of are at the absolute top in the One Piece world, which means they're an outstanding group of individuals even amongst the best. It's perfectly reasonable for there to be many combatants weaker than them (whether the differences range from large to incredibly small). Nothing wrong with this at all.

As stated already, overall, the war consisted of the best the marines had to offer. There's no disputing this, thus my reasoning of these newer admirals being, again, SLIGHTLY weaker than the admirals we're familiar with (because I, too, agree that there are high expectations and demands for the admiral position). Being SLIGHTLY weaker than the original trio won't reduce the effectiveness/prestige of the admiral rank as some are led to believe.
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Old 2013-03-10, 14:15   Link #95
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^I can only speak for myself here, but I suppose my mentality is that since we're now in the second half of the series, the stakes should be higher, hence my stance on the new admirals being equal to the original ones. Like, we're getting all this crazy info like one of the emperors having an entire army of zoans or the supernovas making alliances with each other, so it would only make sense for the marines to appropriately beef up their forces (and again, I'm sure that someone like Akainu would feel exactly the same way). True, I guess we could make due with the new admirals being roughly equal to the old ones, but I still sorta feel that all of them being equal in power would be a better sign that the NW marines aren't messing around.....
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Old 2013-03-10, 14:33   Link #96
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^Everything has been too plot oriented for quite a while now. Honestly, I kind of wish Luffy would have just gone off and had a nice Skypiea style arc right now. Some fun fantasy adventuring with great comedy and decent drama mixed in.

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Old 2013-03-10, 16:14   Link #97
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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^I can only speak for myself here, but I suppose my mentality is that since we're now in the second half of the series, the stakes should be higher, hence my stance on the new admirals being equal to the original ones. Like, we're getting all this crazy info like one of the emperors having an entire army of zoans or the supernovas making alliances with each other, so it would only make sense for the marines to appropriately beef up their forces (and again, I'm sure that someone like Akainu would feel exactly the same way). True, I guess we could make due with the new admirals being roughly equal to the old ones, but I still sorta feel that all of them being equal in power would be a better sign that the NW marines aren't messing around.....
Actually, I would prefer that the new admirals are just as strong as the original ones for reasons you mentioned. According to Jinbe, the marines under FA Akainu's leadership are more powerful than ever. That could be attributed to a number of things unknown to us at the moment. I'd be more than happy if Oda proves me wrong with these new guys, but I'm a bit skeptical for the time being.

-----

On a side note, I'm thinking that Dressrosa is going to be the Arabasta arc of the New World, that is, the first major arc that will have grand repercussions in this half of the story.
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Old 2013-03-10, 16:46   Link #98
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There's also the possibility of one or two guys having gotten stronger over the past two years to make Admiral. Why do people dismiss this possibility so easily?

I mean, look what two years did to the straw hats.
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Old 2013-03-10, 17:06   Link #99
Blackbeard D. Kuma
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^ No one has dismissed that possibility. Not everyone has the same growth rate, though.
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Old 2013-03-10, 18:13   Link #100
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There's also the possibility of one or two guys having gotten stronger over the past two years to make Admiral. Why do people dismiss this possibility so easily?

I mean, look what two years did to the straw hats.
It's plausible if they're young, still having to reach their primes.

However, it's EXTREMELY unlikely for a marine who has been serving for YEARS, to become strong in 2 years. Only maybe if he/she ate a strong fruit.
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