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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 20 Rating
Perfect 10 24 39.34%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 23 37.70%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 8 13.11%
7 out of 10 : Good 4 6.56%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.64%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.64%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 61. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-08, 16:10   Link #81
Dengar
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How are you gonna do that without removing the Sibyl system?

EDIT: Ok adding a little bit. Whether you like it or not, the Sibyl system's mere existence is the only thing right now that can prevent a massive psycho-hazard.

Last edited by Dengar; 2013-03-08 at 16:27.
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Old 2013-03-08, 16:47   Link #82
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The problem lies in how the references are used. They're dropped in with maybe an additional quote or two, and that's it. This adds nothing to an argument, depth to characterization, nor does it do anything theme-wise.
Actually who the characters quote tells us a lot about their ideas and philosophies. All the quotes and references Urobuchi has used do apply to the series.


Quote:
It would be a lot better if just one or two literary pieces are brought up and explored to a degree of depth. As is though, it's just intellectual masturbation.
Eh I hate that term. Gen Urobuchi is exploring only a few ideas but you can use multiple references to do that.

This isn't meant to be a literary analysis so I don't know why he should limit himself to only two references. Personally I think what Gen Urobuchi is doing is creating a way to introduce interesting ideas into his narrative (and I do think he wants us to think about them).

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Change requires the destruction of Sybil.
No actually it doesn't. Since when does change have to equal destruction?
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Old 2013-03-08, 17:30   Link #83
Triple_R
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A couple points...

1. With the literary references, Gen expects his audience to either be very well-versed in the humanities, or for them to do research. I can understand where this can be frustrating. It's kind of like the philosophy equivalent to otaku in-jokes that you may or may not be in on.

This is particularly true since Gen doesn't just quote the easy or well-known stuff. It's not just Shakespeare, Plato, Nietzsche, and Orwell's 1984. In fact, I applaud Gen for avoiding the really overused Nietzsche quote of "When you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you." Instead of using that in a situation where it would have kinda sorta worked, Gen had Kougami come up with something original, and better-fitting for the specific situation (this was numerous episodes back, in the episode where Kougami introduced Akane to his old Sensei).

Instead of the very well-known stuff, Gen cites philosophers like Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Gulliver's Travels. When you research these references (or if you're already well-familiar with them), you can see how they fit well in the conversations that that they come up in. I personally liked that about Psycho-Pass, but again, I can see how it might be tedious or bothersome to some. I imagine it would be similar to how people were split on there being a lot of otaku in-jokes in Steins;Gate.


2. The practical problem with removing Sibyl is that most Japanese people are accustomed to getting regular mental health readings. These being Psycho-Pass ratings and hue checkups. Without Sibyl, who's going to handle these? Akane herself? That's a helluva responsibility for one lone person to take on.

Will Akane add her brain to the Sibyl collective? She takes a huge risk of getting overwhelmed by the other brains if she does that, imo.

Will Akane let Makishima succeed? That's an interesting possibility... especially since Sibyl is so focused on adding Makishima to its collective that I don't think it even ordered Akane to ensure the food supply is saved. Without such a direct order, Akane could say "Well, you never told me to stop him from ruining the food supply. I was only following your orders, Sibyl!"

Still, if Akane does this... Wow, those foreign nations better be on the speed-dial, and totally ready and willing to help, because otherwise the starvation that will hit Japan is going to be nasty.


That being said, my heart is with Vallen here. I think if there's any way that Akane can bring down Sibyl without plunging Japan into total anarchy, she will take it.
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Old 2013-03-08, 17:37   Link #84
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
No actually it doesn't. Since when does change have to equal destruction?
It does when Sybil refuses to change. And is willing to use violence to resist the change.

Sybil is the problem, so it has to go. Because it doesn't see itself as anything but perfection, and that everyone else is the problem. The only way to change the unchangeable is to remove it entirely.

You are speaking in a general sense. It is true that a government can change itself for the better. But not THIS government. Because Sybil is not legitimate as it doesn't even officially exists. It is a lie. And the reason it needed to lie is because it knows it doesn't have legitimacy. So it can't survive in the sun, it is either Sybil's destruction or maintain the status quo.
Quote:
2. The practical problem with removing Sibyl is that most Japanese people are accustomed to getting regular mental health readings. These being Psycho-Pass ratings and hue checkups. Without Sibyl, who's going to handle these? Akane herself? That's a helluva responsibility for one lone person to take on.
What's is the POINT of the mental health readings?
They are just used to send people to permanent incarcerations. They serve no actual civil function other than keeping the public in fear. Just give everyone an automatic pass, and they wouldn't even notice.
Criminals will be caught the old fashioned way. It is already a police state with cameras everywhere, the crime rates won't increase much.

You are confusing what Sybil does to maintain itself, from what a society needs to survive. And we know for sure a society can survive fine without mandatory brain scanning. If they need to do it to feel better, just fake the data until it is phased out.
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Old 2013-03-08, 17:59   Link #85
Dengar
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Ok lets do it! Lets destroy the Sibyl system! Massive panic! Area stress levels rising! Psycho-Hazard spreads. No one trusts anyone anymore! People kill eachother everywhere. No one feels safe. More killing ensues. Massive bloodbath! Nice job breaking it, hero.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:09   Link #86
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Ok lets do it! Lets destroy the Sibyl system! Massive panic! Area stress levels rising! Psycho-Hazard spreads. No one trusts anyone anymore! People kill eachother everywhere. No one feels safe. More killing ensues. Massive bloodbath! Nice job breaking it, hero.
Massive panic? Why?

Why would people notice 250 brains are missing, if they never knew the brains were there to begin with?

You assume the population would care that their government was changed, when most of them don't even know what their government WAS.

Just call the new government Sybil 2.0. New and improved. People won't care about it any more than they did before. The government's functions was secret, so no one can notice changes anyway.

Sybil is unimportant. They are not special, they are not gods, and no one would miss them when they are gone. That is why they are so scared of being exposed; they are not what they say they are.

If the CIA or MI6 suddenly changed their structure and leadership, but keep their public spokespeople the same, would anyone notice?
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:26   Link #87
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
How are you gonna do that without removing the Sibyl system?
The Sibyl System would have to be abolished, of course. That's not even a necessary side effect of the change - it's one of the primary goals.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Actually who the characters quote tells us a lot about their ideas and philosophies. All the quotes and references Urobuchi has used do apply to the series.
Not really. It's what the characters say, what they do, and their non-verbal communication that informs the viewer. Name dropping only tells us who the character (or the writer!) has been reading.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Eh I hate that term. Gen Urobuchi is exploring only a few ideas but you can use multiple references to do that.

This isn't meant to be a literary analysis so I don't know why he should limit himself to only two references. Personally I think what Gen Urobuchi is doing is creating a way to introduce interesting ideas into his narrative (and I do think he wants us to think about them).
A spade's a spade. The issue isn't how many references you make, but how much in depth you go with them, and how much relevance they bear to the topic, and how skillfully they are incorporated. Any author can name drop lots of writers and books, but unless they can tie those references into the framework of their work, then it is meaningless; or worse, boring.

The references are tossed into the narrative with the subtlety of a bull in a china shop. As Swift wrote, "a young healthy child well nursed is at a year old a most delicious, nourishing, and wholesome food".
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:30   Link #88
Kirarakim
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All the quotes and references DO have relevance to the story. And it's not like Gen Urobuchi is only using quotes to tell us about the characters, it just makes for a richer narrative.

They are definitely not just random quotes that don't apply to the series. Everything that has been quoted applies.


And Vallen Maybe you can only think of destruction but that doesn't mean it is the option Akane will come up with.

And sorry I have trouble quoting from my iPOD.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:39   Link #89
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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And Vallen Maybe you can only think of destruction but that doesn't mean it is the option Akane will come up with.
So you are suggesting 250 brains of violent criminals would not resist them losing power via all means at their disposal?

It takes two to tango. We have what Akane wants, and what Sybil wants. If Sybil can't deliver what Akane wants, Akane will take what she can get.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:46   Link #90
Dengar
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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Just call the new government Sybil 2.0. New and improved. People won't care about it any more than they did before. The government's functions was secret, so no one can notice changes anyway.
Replace a shitty asshole system with an even more shitty asshole system. One that can't even read psycho-passes accurately so crimes will start happening again. And then the Psycho-hazard happens.

I'm having more and more trouble trying to explain how dangerous the psycho-hazard is. It's like introducing a simple flu to a person who has been sterile for all of their lives.

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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
The Sibyl System would have to be abolished, of course. That's not even a necessary side effect of the change - it's one of the primary goals.
Both of you seem to not get how rooted the Sibyl system is. You can think what you want of it, but it's keeping the peace. If you forcefully remove it, there will be nothing left to keep the peace.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
If Sybil can't deliver what Akane wants, Akane will take what she can get.
What Akane WANTS, is what's good for the greatest amount of people.


Actually, if I were her, I would capture Makishima and indeed have him added to the system. It would drastically improve things imho.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:48   Link #91
Quadratic
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It would be interesting to see if Kogami manages to kill Makishima, because then Akane's next action will have to be consistent.
If she chooses to destroy the brains, Kogami must also die.
If she chooses to spare the brains, Kogami can live.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:50   Link #92
Reckoner
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Yeah the assumption seems to be that we can just drop the system and give responsibility back to the people instantly. Why would Kougami be so uncomfortable with the idea of a jury a few episodes back if he felt it was something they could do? It would not be easy and any transition to a totally new system would require a lot of time.

Then it also might just not be worth it to get rid of it all. What would it accomplish? Society is safer right now than it was before. There will be more disorder and chaos, and I take it that the average citizen under Sibyl might not be cool with that.

Personally I think reforming the system is the best thing possible, not getting rid of it.
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:55   Link #93
cyth
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Well, I think a whole lot of you are sidestepping the possibility that destroying the Sybil system wouldn't be the same as destroying the (arguably weak) infrastructure the country has in place for it. The current brains have to go, but they can always be replaced with less murderous ones. It's not like Sybil produced people who are completely useless without it. The short mention of economic stability actually implied to me that Japan is still competing on the global marketplace, it just doesn't take any kind of input from outside. So to have this economic force, you need people capable of powering it. Also, I'm sure society isn't completely void of people who let the splendor of their soul shine, Akane being one of them. People like her could take the place of current brains and just improve on what they've done so far. Unless you guys actually believe that the current set of brains is irreplaceable, that is why the system can't function if they get overthrown?
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Old 2013-03-08, 18:56   Link #94
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Both of you seem to not get how rooted the Sibyl system is. You can think what you want of it, but it's keeping the peace. If you forcefully remove it, there will be nothing left to keep the peace.
I disagree. The idea of Sibyl is keeping the peace. That's why it's so important for Cybil to keep their real nature a secrete. As for the criminals... most of the people who get captured aren't even criminals, just stressed out people who ended even more stressed because of the system (remember episode 1?).


Vallen Chaos Valiant's right. You could change the system covertly, and then let the people slowly get used to the change. I don't think things would get much worse than they are now. It would take a while, but society would slowly relearn to rely on themselves instead of letting the system decide everything in their place.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:01   Link #95
Dengar
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I disagree. The idea of Sibyl is keeping the peace. That's why it's so important for Cybil to keep their real nature a secrete. As for the criminals... most of the people who get captured aren't even criminals, just stressed out people who ended even more stressed because of the system (remember episode 1?).
She was stressed out because of the rapist, not because of the system (also she was shown to be recovering after being apprehended, which was also due to Akane's judgment. Why else do you think that Sibyl places so much value in Akane?). I agree (as does Akane, by the way) that the need for secrecy shouldn't have been there for the start. But it's there now.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Vallen Chaos Valiant's right. You could change the system covertly, and then let the people slowly get used to the change. I don't think things would get much worse than they are now. It would take a while, but society would slowly relearn to rely on themselves instead of letting the system decide everything in their place.
When you put it that way, it makes a lot more sense than "LOL lets crush Sibyl and lets make a flimsy not-well-thought-out shadow government that can't even read psycho-pass".

There's just the matter of that there's only so much a single person can do by herself.

Ironically, adding Makishima to their repertoire could change things for the better. Unlike the other 250-odd brains, Makishima understands humanity's desire for freedom.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:09   Link #96
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Yeah the assumption seems to be that we can just drop the system and give responsibility back to the people instantly. Why would Kougami be so uncomfortable with the idea of a jury a few episodes back if he felt it was something they could do? It would not be easy and any transition to a totally new system would require a lot of time.

Then it also might just not be worth it to get rid of it all. What would it accomplish? Society is safer right now than it was before. There will be more disorder and chaos, and I take it that the average citizen under Sibyl might not be cool with that.

Personally I think reforming the system is the best thing possible, not getting rid of it.
You seem to not understand my point; reform is only possible if Sybil is willing.

Is it possible for any government to reform without violent revolution? Yes.
Is it possible for a government to reform if those in charge are violently opposed to the idea? NO.

I am not questioning Akane's willingness to reform the system.I am questioning Sybil's willingness to reform withthout them saying "Over our dead brains". And just start disintegrating wannabe reformers with drones.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:13   Link #97
Kazu-kun
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She was stressed out because of the rapist, not because of the system. I agree (as does Akane, by the way) that the need for secrecy shouldn't have been there for the start. But it's there now.
I was talking about the rapist actually. He snapped when he found out his psyco-path had gone up. He already had a high psyco-path, but he wasn't a criminal. He only became a criminal as a result of his fear of the system.

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Ironically, adding Makishima to their repertoire could change things for the better. Unlike the other 250-odd brains, Makishima understands humanity's desire for freedom.
Are you sure? How do you know there aren't others "brains" who think that way already? Maybe they do, but can't do anything because they can only act collectively. If that's the case, then adding Makishima would be a fucking waste.

Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that letting Sybil take Makishima would be a crime. Makishima might be a criminal, but Sybil isn't interested in making him account for his crimes; they only want his brain for their own ends.

Would Akane, who already sees Sybil as a criminal, let it do whatever they want with Makishima? I'm no so sure about that. I think Akane would want Makishima to be properly accounted for his crimes, and of course... Sybil too.

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If she chooses to destroy the brains, Kogami must also die.
If she chooses to spare the brains, Kogami can live.
Isn't it the opposite? If Mikishima dies, only destroying Sybil would save Kogami.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:22   Link #98
Dengar
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I was talking about the rapist actually. He snapped when he found out his psyco-path had gone up. He already had a high psyco-path, but he wasn't a criminal. He only became a criminal as a result of his fear of the system.
Irl rapists also have all kinds of excuses for their actions. Don't buy any of those either.

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Are you sure? How do you know there aren't others "brains" who think that way already? Maybe they do, but can't do anything because they can only act collectively. If that's the case, then adding Makishima would be a fucking waste.
Of curse I'm not sure. A scientist who thinks they're sure isn't a proper scientist. But there's one thing though. If there really was another Makishima in there, then they would understand Makishima, yet all the evidence points to the fact that they don't.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Besides, you're overlooking the simple fact that letting Sybil take Makishima would be a crime. Makishima might be a criminal, but Sybil isn't interested in making him account for his crimes; they only want his brain for their own ends.
By Sibyl's logic, their contribution to society as a whole counts as more than attonement. Whether you agree with that or not is up to you of course.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Would Akane, who already sees Sybil as a criminal, let it do whatever they want with Makishima? I'm no so sure about that. I think Akane would want Makishima to be properly accounted for his crimes, and of course... Sybil too.
That's certainly what she wants, I don't disagree with that. And maybe she'll find a way to pull it off (the makishima thing I mean, taking care of Sibyl is a more difficult matter). On the other hand, maybe she thinks the same way I did, and put him in there. If you view it like that, Makishima would be nothing more than a tool to change a flawed system into a slightly less flawed system.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:31   Link #99
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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It is quite amazing, really. The amount of people here who genuinely believe Sybil's every word is gospel. And that if they do everything Sybil asks, everything would be fine... Truly, a Theocracy in action.
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Old 2013-03-08, 19:32   Link #100
merakses
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There is absolutely no way for a painless transition to a Sybil-free society. Even if Akane knows Sybil's real form, she doesn't really have any solid proof. In order to overthrow it(them?), she would obviously have to share the information with others - and at this point she gets rammed by a classical Morton's Fork, since:
-she either leaks the information to a large amount of people (on the net, for example), and hopes that, even without solid proof, the resentment which has built towards Sybil among certain social classes will lead them to try and change society. Result: chaos, anarchy, riots, etc.
-or she tries to convince a small number of key people high up in the 'hierarchy' set up by Sybil... and you completely fail, since the kinds of people who benefit most from the system aren't likely to believe you that the system is 250 evil brains in jars... especially when you have no evidence.

In any case, even supposing she did have the necessary organized support from at least a part of the population (which she doesn't, and she can't obtain), there is still the matter of Sybil controlling not only the CID, but also the Border Control division... and those not-very-friendly-looking huge drones of theirs.
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