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Old 2013-03-31, 02:01   Link #101
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Funny that. It seems the government is between a rock and a hard place. The big depositors are the ones that allow the banks to make the real money. But the small volume savers are the ones who allow banks to exist. So piss off big depositors = not making any money. Piss off small depositors = bank closes down. So they pick losing money over outright bankruns and default.
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Old 2013-04-07, 07:50   Link #102
AmeNoJaku
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Concerning hypocrisy, a major German bank had established as many tax-evading companies as were in Cyprus, now I wonder, will Schauble levy the poor depositors of his own country too? Let's not forget that the same bank manipulated its books the "Greek" way too, in order to evade state intervention five years ago... then again I guess justice works differently for southern and northern Europeans these days
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:02   Link #103
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
Concerning hypocrisy, a major German bank had established as many tax-evading companies as were in Cyprus, now I wonder, will Schauble levy the poor depositors of his own country too? Let's not forget that the same bank manipulated its books the "Greek" way too, in order to evade state intervention five years ago... then again I guess justice works differently for southern and northern Europeans these days
Deutsche Bank?

Oh boy a major bank doing that same shit.
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:15   Link #104
sneaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
Concerning hypocrisy, a major German bank had established as many tax-evading companies as were in Cyprus, now I wonder, will Schauble levy the poor depositors of his own country too? Let's not forget that the same bank manipulated its books the "Greek" way too, in order to evade state intervention five years ago... then again I guess justice works differently for southern and northern Europeans these days
What does this have to do with justice? You think German banks being just as bad as the rest entitles Cyprus to German money? How is that?
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:31   Link #105
AmeNoJaku
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IMHO, and obviously not very popular one, bankers everywhere are just like the common thieves wearing suites... the difference is how they are treated depending on the caste or imaginary race they happen to be born into... e.g. Cypriot ones are screwed, but on the other hand Prussian ones just get a little bad publicity now and then

Remember that I condemn both for doing the same crap to their people, but I can not ignore the fact, that one group got totally screwed over for generations to come, while the other hardly notices it, in fact they give moral lessons to the other about how pious they are
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:44   Link #106
sneaker
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Well, the moral lessons are indeed uncalled-for, but Cyprus is responsible for its own fate. No reason to blame Germany or demand anything from it. Why don't they blame Russia or the U.K.?

Last edited by sneaker; 2013-04-07 at 09:16.
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:47   Link #107
Anh_Minh
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I'd just like to point out that, should Germany be in danger of defaulting, they'd be treated with the same derision and conditional help as any southern country but for two things:
- no one'd be big enough to pull them out of the hole;
- if it comes to that, it can only mean that we're all already screwed.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2013-04-07 at 09:27.
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Old 2013-04-07, 08:48   Link #108
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneaker View Post
Well, the moral lessons are indeed uncalled-for, but Cyprus is responsible for its own fate. No reason to blame Germany or demand anything from it. Why don't they blame the Russia or the U.K.?
Not as much responsible when that gaping money hole can destroy EU if not filled.

Though it seems like a black hole sucking in money and assets to me......

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'd just like to point out that, should Germany be in danger of defaulting, they'd be treated with the same derision and conditional help as any southern country but for two things:
- no one'd big enough to pull them out of the hole;
- if it comes to that, it can only mean that we're all already screwed.
They probably don't have to default. Germany has a 13.7b trade export, with the entire world as their trading partner. The problem is that everyone wants to buy stuff from Germany, so this domestic financial fault may actually set back their potential ability to produce significantly.
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-04-07, 09:19   Link #109
AmeNoJaku
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I'd just like to point out that, should Germany be in danger of defaulting, they'd be treated with the same derision and conditional help as any southern country but for two things:
- no one'd big enough to pull them out of the hole;
- if it comes to that, it can only mean that we're all already screwed.
We or our children will unfortunately find out, as WWII should have taught them, that this behavior didn't turn out exactly to their favor At least, some hated commentators within Prussia have already noticed the grave their north-korean-styled-beloved-leaders are digging for their citizens
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Old 2013-04-07, 09:31   Link #110
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
We or our children will unfortunately find out, as WWII should have taught them, that this behavior didn't turn out exactly to their favor
What behavior? "This is my money, make your own"? I'm pretty sure the Germans aren't the only ones guilty of that. Heck, in many ways, they're less guilty than others. (As, you know, major net contributors to the EU, among other things.)

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At least, some hated commentators within Prussia have already noticed the grave their north-korean-styled-beloved-leaders are digging for their citizens
So now Germany's like North Korea? How?
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Old 2013-04-07, 09:31   Link #111
sneaker
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Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Germany has a 13.7b trade export, with the entire world as their trading partner.
And that's just the surplus - from January, not annually. Germany exports more goods than the U.S. or Japan. Total annual exports exceed 1 Trillion Euro.

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Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
We or our children will unfortunately find out, as WWII should have taught them, that this behavior didn't turn out exactly to their favor At least, some hated commentators within Prussia have already noticed the grave their north-korean-styled-beloved-leaders are digging for their citizens
Yes, Germany's taxpayers guaranteeing for other European economies' debts. Hitler's dream finally came true.
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Old 2013-04-07, 09:41   Link #112
MeoTwister5
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Ok honestly I don't know if it's just because I'm dumb, but how exactly is Germany comparable to it's Nazi past and current North Korea?

Because AFAIK when the Nazis came to power they actually instituted reforms to repair the damage incurred from the Treaty of Versailles, and clearly they don't have a cult of personality that NK has.

This is a stupid comparison.
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Old 2013-04-07, 09:52   Link #113
AmeNoJaku
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As I wrote, criticizing over-hyped German capitalists that spread misery Europe-wise is not popular... But unfortunately, you will figure out like your grandmothers did half+ a century ago
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Old 2013-04-07, 10:23   Link #114
willx
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Re: Deutsche Bank -- The claims that they may have hidden CDS valuation losses to avoid default is concerning. That said, as a person familiar with CDS, their valuation is incredibly opaque. There's no appropriate central clearing house and as they are defined and written as "contracts" there are often varying assumptions and disputes for when they do or do not get paid out.

As for the "offshore accounts issue" -- as I mentioned this to other people. Both criminals as well as wealthy individuals, many of whom had made their money legally, use off-shore accounts and corporate structures to avoid taxation. A famous one that I see a lot is HoldCo - ShellCo1 (Canadian) -> ShellCo2 (Barbados?) -> OpCo. It is not the offshore nature of accounts that are the issue, it's in particular, the illegal ones. There is such a thing as "legal tax evasion/deferral" .. ask any CPA?

The difference between Deutsche and Cyprus is obvious, the story clearly tip-toes around the subject, but Deutsche's CDS business is part of its securities lending and wholesale banking arm. Cyprus' deposit business is part of its business, retail, business and perhaps wealth management business. The comparison perhaps not clear to many is in the degree of stupidity and near criminal irresponsibility. You can take my word for it or not but Cyprus offering deposits 5% was 4 degrees of magnitude more stupid and was done by a single entity. Whereas Deutsche's retail operations were sound, strong and remain so, but the wholesale division apparently was not -- even then that is not yet clear and is currently an allegation.

Have a look at an old Moodys report on Deutsche to better understand large complex financial institutions: https://www.deutsche-bank.de/ir/de/d...5_Jul_2011.pdf
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Old 2013-04-07, 11:54   Link #115
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
As I wrote, criticizing over-hyped German capitalists that spread misery Europe-wise is not popular...
Which does nothing to explain your point of view. Seriously, stop whining your opinion is not popular. Try to state it clearly instead. Maybe it will be unpopular, but at least it'll be out there.

Or what, it can be summed with "it's all the fault of German bankers"?

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But unfortunately, you will figure out like your grandmothers did half+ a century ago
That again? Are you seriously trying to imply the Germans will start WWIII over this debt business?
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Old 2013-04-07, 12:55   Link #116
SaintessHeart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willx View Post
Re: Deutsche Bank -- The claims that they may have hidden CDS valuation losses to avoid default is concerning. That said, as a person familiar with CDS, their valuation is incredibly opaque. There's no appropriate central clearing house and as they are defined and written as "contracts" there are often varying assumptions and disputes for when they do or do not get paid out.

As for the "offshore accounts issue" -- as I mentioned this to other people. Both criminals as well as wealthy individuals, many of whom had made their money legally, use off-shore accounts and corporate structures to avoid taxation. A famous one that I see a lot is HoldCo - ShellCo1 (Canadian) -> ShellCo2 (Barbados?) -> OpCo. It is not the offshore nature of accounts that are the issue, it's in particular, the illegal ones. There is such a thing as "legal tax evasion/deferral" .. ask any CPA?

The difference between Deutsche and Cyprus is obvious, the story clearly tip-toes around the subject, but Deutsche's CDS business is part of its securities lending and wholesale banking arm. Cyprus' deposit business is part of its business, retail, business and perhaps wealth management business. The comparison perhaps not clear to many is in the degree of stupidity and near criminal irresponsibility. You can take my word for it or not but Cyprus offering deposits 5% was 4 degrees of magnitude more stupid and was done by a single entity. Whereas Deutsche's retail operations were sound, strong and remain so, but the wholesale division apparently was not -- even then that is not yet clear and is currently an allegation.

Have a look at an old Moodys report on Deutsche to better understand large complex financial institutions: https://www.deutsche-bank.de/ir/de/d...5_Jul_2011.pdf
Thank you for the informative reply. I thought getting someone who actually works for a financial institution would actually help clear up a few matters of the complexity of financial institutions.

Though it begs the question, why would big business owners want to evade tax by offshoring their monies?
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When three puppygirls named after pastries are on top of each other, it is called Eclair a'la menthe et Biscotti aux fraises avec beaucoup de Ricotta sur le dessus.
Most of all, you have to be disciplined and you have to save, even if you hate our current financial system. Because if you don't save, then you're guaranteed to end up with nothing.
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Old 2013-04-07, 13:15   Link #117
willx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintessHeart View Post
Thank you for the informative reply. I thought getting someone who actually works for a financial institution would actually help clear up a few matters of the complexity of financial institutions.

Though it begs the question, why would big business owners want to evade tax by offshoring their monies?
It's not just evasion of taxes. For example, my friend does business in Europe -- certain countries for example limit certain business activities to "domestic companies" -- therefore he founds EuropeCo B.V.

So, CanadaCo->HoldCo1->HoldCo2->EuropeCo B.V. So he has a European company that conducts operations in that country with shared services agreements with CanadaCo. Remember, countries have different tax treaties with each other with regards to double-taxation etc, so you want to efficiently flow your profits back to your shareholders while efficiently navigating the myriad of international laws.
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Old 2013-04-12, 05:52   Link #118
AmeNoJaku
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I should have chosen another title, but current events got the better of me, in hope of some hope from the union

Anyway, more sad news, Schauble ridiculed the Greek FM about the unpaid Nazi War reparation, Cyprus needs about the double, maybe triple the money to execute Germany's bank rescue plan, after they one-shot the country's economy, and an obscure euro-group directive was brought up by the usual suspects about levying depositors in fear of a French bank collapse... all these from German media, in between

@Ahn_Minh: Whining You misunderstand observations and criticism from a perspective that the majority here does not want to listen to for whining... it is the easiest thing in the world to discard other perspectives as whining, trolling, etc... that is just evading constructive dialogue... or to put it in the opposite perspective from mine, despite personally disagreeing with the point of view from most capitalist-fanboys&girls/communist-haters here, I find their opinions (stripped of insults and degradation of counter-arguments, instead of constructively arguing against them) constructive after filtering them of useless emotions, since I don't abide to either ideologies
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Old 2013-04-12, 05:58   Link #119
Mentar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AmeNoJaku View Post
As I wrote, criticizing over-hyped German capitalists that spread misery Europe-wise is not popular... But unfortunately, you will figure out like your grandmothers did half+ a century ago
And you repeat this total BS line over and over and over again.

German capitalists don't spread misery, they are called by countries who brought misery on themselves by ENTIRELY their own volition, and who now demand that German money should bail them out. And in return we're being insulted as Nazis.

I've explained that several times and still you insist on this "spread misery" crap. Why is that?
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Old 2013-04-12, 06:31   Link #120
sneaker
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22106194
Quote:
Cost of Cyprus bailout 'rises to 23bn euros'

The cost of the bailout for Cyprus has increased to 23bn euros ($30bn; 19.5bn), according to a draft document prepared by the country's creditors.
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