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View Poll Results: Psycho-Pass - Episode 22 [END] Rating
Perfect 10 29 27.10%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 30 28.04%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 23 21.50%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 10.28%
6 out of 10 : Average 7 6.54%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 3 2.80%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.87%
3 out of 10 : Bad 1 0.93%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 1 0.93%
Voters: 107. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-23, 18:50   Link #181
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Sheba View Post
French Revolution and its aftereffects shows that things are not that simple. Remember that after 1789, they had gone through the Terreur, the First Empire, the Restoration of Monarchy, another Revolution, a Second Republic, followed by a Second Empire, then a third Republic, WWII, Fourth Republic and now thanks to De Gaulle, France is finally stable. And that's just a rough picture.
WWII may have killed it, but the Third lasted 70 years. The Fifth isn't there yet.

But let's say it takes decades or centuries for Japan to stabilize. Is it going to take less time if you wait?

Quote:
So yeah, revolutions are not easy. Especially for countries that have a long history behind them. And in the context of Psycho Pass, Sibyl is as old as half a century.
Masaoka was an adult before the advent of Sibyl, so it can't be that old. A quarter of a century, maybe?
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Old 2013-03-23, 18:50   Link #182
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Man, i'm so glad they allowed Kogami to personally kill Makishima in the end. I was half expecting the usual to happen where the villain is spared, the charges against Kogami is dropped and everyone lives happily ever after. Instead the exact opposite happened which was like a breath of fresh air

The one thing I was surprised about is that Ginoza wasn't added to the whole Kagami vs
Makishima vs Akane interactions. I was honestly expecting what I said in the paragraph above, and that it involved Ginoza somehow since he just lost his father before his eyes. Obviously his Psycho-Pass went way up after that, especially since it was on the verge of going over the edge. I thought he would sacrifice himself to distract Makishima, allowing Akane to arrest him, or he could have killed Makishima himself since it was too late for him.

Ah well, I was actually glad Ginoza lived, and in that last scene where he was being introduced as an enforcer to the new recruit, he looked epic as well as the entire scene and dialogue

Hoping for a season 2.
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Old 2013-03-23, 18:57   Link #183
amaterasu4
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The comparisons with 1984 are getting tiring. Gen chose to make this ending more ambiguous leaving the viewer with their own answer unless they make a second season. Because the Sybil ended laughing does it mean they won? Akane never started a fight against the system and starting one would be meaningless since she could easily be killed. The only way she could destroy Sybil is by becoming the second Makishima but that's a path that Kogami is close to take.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:01   Link #184
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Gen chose to make this ending more ambiguous leaving the viewer with their own answer unless they make a second season.
Yes and therein lies the problem for me it creates a weak ending that doesn't say anything.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:06   Link #185
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Marathoned the series and i really loved it from beginning to end. Probably my favorite part about the show was how elegantly they handled all the opposing philosophies revolving around things like justice, security vs. free will, etc. I really appreciated the fact that the writer didn't hamfist one ideology down the viewers' throats as the "right" way of doing things. Instead, it felt like the various characters were free to present their beliefs without overt bias coming from the author. This resulted in some really interesting and deep villains that you could sympathize with. In the end, i got the impression from the show that conflicts of this nature are never black and white. It's just about different people fighting for what they truly believe in and that's all there really is to it; it's completely up to us as individuals to judge them.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:34   Link #186
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Yes, but what is the goal here? It's meaningless to cause a period of anarchy without an actual goal in mind.
Well sure, but Akane had already hinted at the idea of establishing a judiciary branch. I think it's clear that she's already brainstorming what a Japan without Sibyl would look like. Or at least a Japan where Sibyl has been removed from handling the justice side of things.


Quote:
... not only might people not achieve anything of note, they could end up in an even worse position.
That's an inevitable risk in virtually any revolution.


Here's the thing - Either Sybil is acceptable, or it isn't. It's one or the other.

Now, if you determine that Sybil is unacceptable, then you also have to determine when's the best time to attempt to bring it down.

A few people here have essentially stated "Akane made the right decision at this time".

With the specification "at this time", I think it's fairly implicit that people here aren't comfortable with the idea of Sibyl ruling Japan permanently.

If so, then when's the right time to bring down Sybil? 2 years in the future? 5? 10? 20?

What makes 5 years in the future better than now? Or what makes 10 years better? Or 20 years?

I'm not seeing a concrete argument for favoring putting this off far into the future.


In fact, I see many good reasons for toppling Sibyl as soon as possible. I laid some of them out here:

Key Excerpt: 1. An entire generation of Japanese people that remember what life was like before Sybil. This generation could help younger generations adapt to a Sybil-less Japan as from their own personal memories they know of such a Japan and how it managed to function.

2. Former Lawyers, Judges, etc... that could be put back into their old roles and/or used to help train younger Lawyers, Judges.

If Sybil continues for another twenty years or more, you lose these two considerable aids in transitioning to a Sybil-less Japan.


Now, let me add a third practical reason for attempting to topple Sibyl as soon as possible:

3. You just had major riots that were centered around helmeted people overcoming the Sybil system, and basically going on a crime spree. People's confidence in Sibyl is probably now at the lowest point it's been at in several years, if not decades. To use a commonly cited analogy, the iron is hot now. So why not strike?

People are no doubt still thinking critically about Sibyl, really questioning the effectiveness of it and the Psycho-Pass system. Yes, they're definitely very relieved that these riots are over and that stability has been restored, but they'd probably love to see "the government" take actions to assure that these sorts of riots won't happen again. There's a hunger for reassuring change right now that Akane could utilize if she decided to go for it now.

But that hunger will die down as the months and years roll by without similar riots.


Keeping my third point in mind, here's a revolution idea that I came up with.



Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
What happened in the US in the 50s and 70s is of a different scale to what would happen if Sibyl were to be toppled. The latter is like Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. Pardon the political comparisons, but I think they are quite relevant in discussing this series.
The weakness with these comparisons is that foreign intervention is crucial in all of these, with the possibe exception of Syria. I think that a revolution's chances of benefiting the people goes up if it arises from the people themselves rather than if its imposed by a foreign government, no matter how well-intentioned that foreign government may be. If Akane takes down Sibyl then that's a Japanese person leading a Japanese revolution.


Quote:
Akane is in such a position, and I would say that she has made the right judgement at this time. Psycho-Pass did show us what would happen in this society is Sibyl suddenly stopped working: chaos. As Reckoner has observed, no one is ready with another system to replace Sibyl's place in society: and even if one has been conceived,
Of course one's been conceived. The one that existed before Sybil was in place. A big part of the reason why I think now is probably the best time to topple Sybil is because you still have older generations living in Sybil Japan who remember what Japan was like before Sybil took over.

And it couldn't have been that bad, or guys like Tomomi and Kougami's old Professor wouldn't come off as critical of Sybil and longing for the past as they do.


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Destroy the current system too early, and the possibility of regaining a peaceful, orderly society plummets.
Allow a system to exist for too long, and it'll be too entrenched, too ubiquitous, too dominating in the public consciousness, for people to ever be free of it barring something like a complete economic collapse or foreign invasion.


Maybe Akane shouldn't just "turn off the power" in her final meeting with Sybil in this episode. But she definitely should be starting to sow the seeds of change right now, imo. I really think toppling Sybil is only going to get increasingly hard the longer Sybil remains in power.
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Old 2013-03-23, 19:51   Link #187
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Yes and therein lies the problem for me it creates a weak ending that doesn't say anything.
Actually an ambiguous ending is really common just like in Inception where you have no idea what is the truth or Metal Gear Solid 2 where the player ended with lots of questions. The main conflict of Psycho-Pass' second half was Makishima's war on terror not the Sybil System. If society will improve or not depends on a next season or what the viewer thinks.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:16   Link #188
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What a shoddy ending!

I expected Makishima and Kogami to pair up and take down the Sibyl system. But, the Sibyl system still stands and has not been taken down. I expected Akane to tell everyone in MWSPB what the Sibyl system really is and take it down with Kogami. That didn't happen either.

Absolutely shoddy ending. Better have a 2nd season to mop things up!
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:28   Link #189
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Originally Posted by amaterasu4 View Post
Actually an ambiguous ending is really common just like in Inception where you have no idea what is the truth or Metal Gear Solid 2 where the player ended with lots of questions. The main conflict of Psycho-Pass' second half was Makishima's war on terror not the Sybil System. If society will improve or not depends on a next season or what the viewer thinks.
I never said endings that are open to interpretation are always bad. But in this case I felt it was a very weak way to end the series. Psychopass tried to be more than one thing and in the end didn't really say much of anything.


And the series should stand on its own regardless of whether there might be a 2nd season or not.
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Old 2013-03-23, 20:29   Link #190
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I expected Makishima and Kogami to pair up and take down the Sibyl system.
That was never going to happen. In the second half of the show, Kougami's only motivation was to kill Makishima.
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Old 2013-03-24, 03:33   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
The weakness with these comparisons is that foreign intervention is crucial in all of these, with the possibe exception of Syria. I think that a revolution's chances of benefiting the people goes up if it arises from the people themselves rather than if its imposed by a foreign government, no matter how well-intentioned that foreign government may be. If Akane takes down Sibyl then that's a Japanese person leading a Japanese revolution.
You're ignoring the crux of the problem, which is that, whether it begins internally or externally, a revolution doesn't end when the old system is toppled. The people who are left have to start rebuilding a lawful system. Akane realised that most people would not be able to do that - as the first helmet incident with all the people watching that woman get beaten to death in the street showed, many of them aren't even able to determine what is right and what is wrong anymore.

Perhaps, as you observed, the older people who know what it is like to live under an older system would be able to rewrite laws and judicial procedures and have them implemented once again. But that's just talking about law enforcement here - it's implied that Sibyl manages not just law enforcement, but the entire society. i.e. food production, manufacturing, education etc etc. Are there enough people to keep all of that running?

Given the extent to which Sibyl is integrated in society then, and the extreme reliance that most people have on it, try thinking it through: what actions can Akane take to bring down the system? As others have already said, if she tried to destroy the system, she'd be killed before she got very far. The same would probably happen if she tried to reveal its existence to the public: first, who would believe her? And once it was leaked, the system would know, and would probably arrange to have her disposed of. i.e. the so-called revolution you suggested would probably fail, and society would be much worse off.

Hence, Akane has chosen to try to change things within the system rather than dying without actually being able to do anything. And whilst it is slow, the show demonstrates that change is indeed happening (Saiga talking with Kasei - and we don't know whether Akane had a hand in this; what Akane says to Mika). Furthermore, there's the fact that Sibyl wants to reveal itself to the public, and wants to prepare them to knowingly subject themselves to its judgement. But Akane doesn't believe that people will chose to remain subjected to that system once it is revealed. That's the option that she's betting on.
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Last edited by karice67; 2013-03-24 at 05:35.
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Old 2013-03-24, 04:40   Link #192
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(Saiga talking with Kasei - and we don't know whether Akane had a hand in this; what Akane says to Mika)
Nice catch, I completely missed that.
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Old 2013-03-24, 05:33   Link #193
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^ I had a suspicion when I finished the episode the first time, but by then, a couple of people had already pointed it out:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LightningZERO View Post
BTW, is that Professor Saiga with the chief in the ending credits?
Quote:
Originally Posted by RollingPenguin View Post
Akane who is now new Ginoza doesnt treat enforcers like dogs(which is how Ginoza treated them),Ginoza who is new Kogami actually prefers being enforcer and also this picture http://twitpic.com/cd8ysx .Do you recognize these figures?If you do then you certainly realize its intent.
LightningZERO's summary of the 'cycle with some change' is something I generally agree with too.
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Old 2013-03-24, 08:20   Link #194
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What a shoddy ending!

I expected Makishima and Kogami to pair up and take down the Sibyl system. But, the Sibyl system still stands and has not been taken down. I expected Akane to tell everyone in MWSPB what the Sibyl system really is and take it down with Kogami. That didn't happen either.

Absolutely shoddy ending. Better have a 2nd season to mop things up!
Sorry, but that would never happen. Makishima is a murderer whom Kougami planned to kill from the start.

Telling everyone in MWSPB is a bad idea because it would create a chaos which then would spread outside and create a bigger riot/panic than helmets incident did.

You can't just destroy Sibyl System without a plan. If system goes down now, who is to protect the citizens and keep the law? Dominators would be useless and there is not enough man power to stop everyone. You can't just destroy system without something to replace it.

What Akane did was a right choice at this stage of time.
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Old 2013-03-24, 08:24   Link #195
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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
You're ignoring the crux of the problem, which is that, whether it begins internally or externally, a revolution doesn't end when the old system is toppled.
I'm not ignoring that at all. Good grief, I'm not that naive. I fully recognize that there will inevitably be a messy transition period between the toppling of an old system and the full establishment of a new one.

Realistically speaking, this is indeed inevitable. Which actually is part of the reason why I really question the value of putting this off for some unknown, future date.

Changing a nation's form of government is always going to be messy. I don't see any good reason to think it's going to be any less messy 10 or 20 years from now than it would be if its implemented as soon as possible. In fact, I see many reasons to think it'll be harder and messier the longer you put it off.


You either decide that Sybil is unacceptable and hence this messy transition period is worth it, or you don't decide that. Personally, I lean heavily towards the former.


Quote:
The people who are left have to start rebuilding a lawful system. Akane realised that most people would not be able to do that - as the first helmet incident with all the people watching that woman get beaten to death in the street showed, many of them aren't even able to determine what is right and what is wrong anymore.
That's not how I interpreted that scene. I interpreted that scene as people being so reliant on the Sybil system, and used to it keeping this sort of completely open violence off the streets, that they honestly couldn't register what was happening right in front of their eyes. Plus, there is of course the Bystander Effect.

But if you look at various scenes later on during the riots, I honestly felt that people adapted very quickly to the idea that they had to take matters into their own hands in order to deal with these helmeted criminals. People surprisingly went too far in meting out vigilante justice, but it shows that they still have some sense of personal agency and ability to adapt left in them. As ugly as those scenes were, it showed me that these people could live in a society without Sybil. They just need the right leadership to get them there.


Quote:

Perhaps, as you observed, the older people who know what it is like to live under an older system would be able to rewrite laws and judicial procedures and have them implemented once again. But that's just talking about law enforcement here - it's implied that Sibyl manages not just law enforcement, but the entire society. i.e. food production,
You're seriously bringing up food production after the whole hyper-oats bit?

If anything, this is a mark against Sybil. In any event, I don't see much indication that Sybil is particularly needed any more to handle hyper-oats production. The system seems entirely self-sustaining and self-perpetuating to me. There wasn't even a lone person needed at that entire massive food production factory, for crying out loud.


Quote:
manufacturing,
Like that factory from Episode 3 that's completely off the grid (no internet access or anything), and thus is actually a place that Sybil doesn't directly oversee? Yes, that factory may just be a very small part of the total manufacturing output of Sibyl Japan, but nonetheless it clearly shows that people don't need Sybil just to run some factories and manufacturing plants. However, to be fair, Sybil's impact is felt even there. Due to the disproportionate emphasis Sybil causes people to put on psychological health (disproportionate compared to, say, basic moral concerns), everybody at this factory now thinks it's perfectly fine to harshly bully a co-worker in ways that would get you fired (if not land you in jail) in any civilized society. Again, this is a mark against Sybil.

And if this is simply about ensuring that everything gets built on time, then honestly, that's just very basic bureaucrat work.


Quote:
education
Yeah, because Oryo and Kougami's old Professor showed that's going just great, eh? So a third mark against Sybil! Can we say "three strikes, you're out!"? Seems fitting, given Japan's love of baseball - Oh wait, I wonder if the Japanese people even get to enjoy competitive sports like baseball anymore? Since, you know, losing can hurt one's psychological well-being...


While I respect that you're a very good debater who often raises good points, I nonetheless can't help but find it amusing that you raise food production, manufacturing, and education, when honestly, these are all areas where Sybil has serious marks against it. I would argue that these three areas are three where Sibyl's flaws have been clearly displayed in the anime itself.


Quote:
Are there enough people to keep all of that running?
I've sure we can find the 0 people necessary to keep running that hyper-oats factory.

And I wonder how many people are like Kougami's old Professor, and would love to have a crack at shaping some young minds when they no longer have to worry so much about managing their students' potentially fragile psychological health.


Quote:
Given the extent to which Sibyl is integrated in society then, and the extreme reliance that most people have on it, try thinking it through: what actions can Akane take to bring down the system?
I really wish somebody would at least consider the revolution plan I came up with. Maybe it's flawed, but still, it would be nice if somebody at least evaluated it.


Quote:
As others have already said, if she tried to destroy the system, she'd be killed before she got very far.
Roger Rambo has frequently laid out how ridiculously easy it would be to wipe these brains totally out. Admittedly, that's not the ideal way to go about it, but if surviving the wrath of the brains requires you to kill them, it can be done.

A Korean hacker and a team armed with some pipe bombs would likely be enough to do it.


Quote:
The same would probably happen if she tried to reveal its existence to the public: first, who would believe her? And once it was leaked, the system would know, and would probably arrange to have her disposed of. i.e. the so-called revolution you suggested would probably fail, and society would be much worse off.
I think my suggested revolution has a pretty good chance of succeeding, really.


Quote:
Hence, Akane has chosen to try to change things within the system rather than dying without actually being able to do anything.
How is she changing things within the system?


I want to be clear - I think this was a pretty good ending overall. But I really would have liked to have seen more from Akane. More signs that she's taking practical steps to truly combat Sybil.
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Old 2013-03-24, 09:15   Link #196
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How is she changing things within the system?


I want to be clear - I think this was a pretty good ending overall. But I really would have liked to have seen more from Akane. More signs that she's taking practical steps to truly combat Sybil.
To add to this, the very last scene in the show is a callback to the very first one, which suggests that Akane is willing to follow along with the Sibyl System for the time being. While it's likely that she's looking for opportunities to overthrow the system, she's not going out of her way to create these opportunities.

To be honest, I don't think that this last scene was a very good idea.
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Old 2013-03-24, 09:28   Link #197
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I really wish somebody would at least consider the revolution plan I came up with. Maybe it's flawed, but still, it would be nice if somebody at least evaluated it.
The major problem with this plan is that it assumes Akane already has total control of Japan, is accepted as dictator, and all that's left is to reeducate the masses.

It doesn't explain how to wrest control away from the brains, and do so without fracturing society in the process.
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Old 2013-03-24, 09:38   Link #198
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Akane who is now new Ginoza doesnt treat enforcers like dogs(which is how Ginoza treated them),Ginoza who is new Kogami actually prefers being enforcer
I don't really see this as changing the system just a change of the characters.

Akane never thought of the enforcers like dogs. That is just a difference between her and Gino. Heck I don't think Kougami thought of the enforcers as dogs when he was an inspector.

It's of course good that Akane is teaching the new inspector to look at the enforcers as humans but it doesn't really change their position in the long run.

Gino might be happier that he is an enforcer but again that is not a change of the system. Gino is happier because he no longer has to worry about his psychopass going down. This was a blessing to him because well the inevitable finally happened. The worrying was worse than the event for him.

However Gino being an enforcer doesn't change his actual position for the better. I can argue that the other enforcers were not really stressed either. But still their choice stays the same go in a correction facility or become an enforcer. In the end Gino just has to accept this position in life.
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Old 2013-03-24, 09:51   Link #199
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
To add to this, the very last scene in the show is a callback to the very first one, which suggests that Akane is willing to follow along with the Sibyl System for the time being. While it's likely that she's looking for opportunities to overthrow the system, she's not going out of her way to create these opportunities.

To be honest, I don't think that this last scene was a very good idea.
Agreed.

Here's my main issue with the last scene, and where I think it might be coming off as overly ambiguous to some viewers (such as Kirarakim and myself).

I don't know if this scene is supposed to make me feel disturbed at how so little has changed from the very first episode (since this logically means Sybil is as in control as ever), or if it's supposed to give me the warm fuzzies given all of the sentimentality surrounding it.

And before anybody says "It's supposed to do both!", that's quite the internal contradiction, imo.
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Old 2013-03-24, 09:52   Link #200
cyth
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Realistically speaking, this is indeed inevitable. Which actually is part of the reason why I really question the value of putting this off for some unknown, future date.
It's not inevitable if there's an evolutionary dynamic rather than a revolutionary one to changing the system. I interpreted karice67's comment about protests against the Vietnam war more in terms of the U.S. populace realizing something was wrong with their country's involvement in the war.

I just don't understand what's so wrong with letting Akane and characters of similar stature to work their magic and give time for things to change gradually. I guess what I really admire about characters like Akane is that they see and believe in change that doesn't involve a bloody conflict, whereas you don't seem to believe that's possible at all. The only question is whether Akane can come up with a method for producing a better society that Sibyl can reason with or rather one that bypasses Sibyl's ambitions completely.

Quote:
That's not how I interpreted that scene. I interpreted that scene as people being so reliant on the Sybil system, and used to it keeping this sort of completely open violence off the streets, that they honestly couldn't register what was happening right in front of their eyes.
I also interpreted it this way, but I believe there are enough signs without it to believe the only basis for people to comprehend the concept of justice under Sibyl is their arbitrarily assigned Psycho-Pass numbers. They took down those criminals because they wanted to protect their beloved Sibyl. This is why I put an emphasis on people's relationship with Sibyl in my rablings. Granted, the show could have done a better job at portraying Sibyl as a God-like entity.

Quote:
The system seems entirely self-sustaining and self-perpetuating to me. There wasn't even a lone person needed at that entire massive food production factory, for crying out loud.
That factory didn't look very self-sustaining, to be honest. Besides, you need people to understand its inner workings after Sibyl collapses. One way is to bring experts out of their hiding, the other is to import them from overseas. What you don't want is to just leave it operating under the assumption nothing can ever happen to it. What if another Makishima tries to blow it up again?

Quote:
And if this is simply about ensuring that everything gets built on time, then honestly, that's just very basic bureaucrat work.
Right, but in a society devoid of bureaucrats after Sibyl's lights get turned off? They'd need training and, again with the emphasis, time.

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While I respect that you're a very good debater who often raises good points, I nonetheless can't help but find it amusing that you raise food production, manufacturing, and education, when honestly, these are all areas where Sybil has serious marks against it.
Why would you want to force a rough transition when Sibyl's ubiquitous nature requires a certain approach to taking it down? I think this was karice67's point. Yes, turn off the lights, but use your head first.

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I really wish somebody would at least consider the revolution plan I came up with. Maybe it's flawed, but still, it would be nice if somebody at least evaluated it.
Some of us have been doing that, I just don't think you're reading our posts too closely. Two points why it fails: you write off manufacturing, food production, the economy, educational system as a logistic problem, when in actuality Sibyl Japan would need substantial man power to replacing their omnipotent God.

My solution was quite simpler, actually: replace the current brains with less psychopathic ones. Saiga and Akane were perhaps perfect candidates for the job. Here I should mention that Akane's character greatly reminds me of the local Information Commissioner. She's done a marvelous job at protecting and raising questions regarding data and privacy protection rights in public. She's even barred access to Google Maps from surveying our streets because they weren't willing to employ basic privacy protection principles before entering the country. Truly, a marvelous bureaucrat.

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I think my suggested revolution has a pretty good chance of succeeding, really.
A revolution is over when a presiding government gets overthrown by the people. Of course, it seems like all the problems will magically line up to disappear once that happens, but that's rarely the case. It somehow reminds me of a boy confessing to a girl and the girl says yes, but then the boy foolishly thinks he's won her heart for good.
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