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View Poll Results: Shin Sekai Yori - Episode 25 [End] Rating
Perfect 10 69 57.50%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 37 30.83%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 7 5.83%
7 out of 10 : Good 2 1.67%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 2.50%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 2 1.67%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-03-24, 21:36   Link #141
ChainLegacy
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The grey morality of the world is what made the show great, so yes, neither side is 'right.' I can't help but sympathize with the rats, however, simply because of their lower position. I would agree with those who feel that modern, normal humanity is closer to the rats than the psionic wielders. I actually thought that was one of the themes of the story, with the outside appearances of each group being quite deceiving. Then again, I do see Saki and Satoru as human since we've gotten to know them so well, so I guess it's up for debate.

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Originally Posted by Repelsteeltju View Post
Ja, as if Bakenezumi going on a hunger strike would be treated as anything but a curiosity if not sign of rebellion and a cause for extermination. As Squealer put it the Bakenezumi are worse off then slaves. Not in the least because the Cantus users don't consider them to be human but they actually need them or their labor. It's convenient to be sure but people who take offence to killing even to colonies not affiliated with Squealers Robber Fly Colony seem far and between.

PS: Gandhi's brand of non-violence relied on instigating violence and causing social unrest.
Yes, I don't think Gandhi's approach would work very well, nor do I think Squeeler was analogous to Bin Laden.

My main question would be, what other choice do the rats have beyond annihilating humanity? Not that it's the morally 'right' thing to do, but a single human poses a massive threat to their aim of dominance. It seems more or less impossible to leave any alive, unless they are raised in rat culture like Maria's child was.

I wonder what was up with the 'invasive' species we saw early on in the show. Are there rats all throughout the world? Seems quite the endeavor to mutate all the population like that. Not that these details are integral to the story, but I was curious about what's going on outside of Japan as well.
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Old 2013-03-24, 21:54   Link #142
Solace
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Originally Posted by Qilin View Post
This all leads me to wonder: What exactly was this show trying to say? Similar to Psycho-Pass, this seems again to be an ending where very little was changed in terms of the societal constructs in play. In the end, even Saki, after learning the truth, could only continue to perceive the queerats as beasts as she killed Squealer.
Real change is rarely immediate. One only needs to look at the US rights movements to see this in action. Humans also rarely pay heed to their own advice of "those who do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it." You can also infer other morals like "power corrupts" and "the right thing to do isn't always in the boundary of the rules".

Also remember that the fiend and Squealer weren't the end of the problem. Squealer's thinking and actions have now tainted many colonies, and the views the humans had about them. Plus there are the children he kidnapped, who must be found. It's not likely that the humans will get them back by simply asking for them. So there is dirty work involved in dealing with the colonies no matter what Saki and Satoru have learned. If there's anything messier than war itself, it's the cleanup afterwards.

The hope is mostly in that the old guard are for the most part, gone. What is left are societies more malleable than ever, ripe for change. Unfortunately we won't see this explored any, and the future is left up to our imaginations.

The true hero in the story, to me at least, was Kiromaru. Unlike Squealer he had no lusts for power, only concern for the survival of his people. He held his principles deeply and clearly for all to see, and in my opinion was the closest to an equal to the humans than any queerat was in the story. His sacrifice ensured the survival of everything he swore to protect, and he did it knowing that he himself would pay the ultimate price. He was not perfect, but I think he was the best representation of the "noble human" we strive to be.
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Old 2013-03-24, 22:14   Link #143
taichi-kun
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I'm sorry but I enjoyed Yakomaru's suffering and death (I think I was laughing yeah a bit sadistic sorry but I hated him)

Serves you right Yakomaru ,bastard I really liked Maria and the other boy ()

But I do feel sorry for the rats(humans), I hope saki and satoru can change the world.

I bet their son will be a boy, a new Shun


I'm very happy that saki and satoru got married,they seemed happy together.

Shun was my favourite character.. he should have been saki's husband. But well satoru is fine too

Hey shun didn't talk to saki anymore..
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Old 2013-03-24, 23:54   Link #144
Tougarashi
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Originally Posted by taichi-kun View Post
I'm sorry but I enjoyed Yakomaru's suffering and death (I think I was laughing yeah a bit sadistic sorry but I hated him)

Serves you right Yakomaru ,bastard I really liked Maria and the other boy ()

But I do feel sorry for the rats(humans), I hope saki and satoru can change the world.

I bet their son will be a boy, a new Shun

I'm very happy that saki and satoru got married,they seemed happy together.

Shun was my favourite character.. he should have been saki's husband. But well satoru is fine too

Hey shun didn't talk to saki anymore..
It is possible that Shun reincarnated as Saki and Satoru's son. But the thing is if the kid look just like Shun, there you go, Satoru will dump Saki. She says I am the one but the kid is not my son Season 2 materials
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Old 2013-03-25, 01:29   Link #145
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Just chiming in to say that although I have many gripes with the show as a whole, the last episode was as perfect as it could be, for an anime-only viewer. It really blew past all my expectations, which had admittedly been lowered a lot through the past few episodes.

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Originally Posted by Solace View Post
The true hero in the story, to me at least, was Kiromaru. Unlike Squealer he had no lusts for power, only concern for the survival of his people. He held his principles deeply and clearly for all to see, and in my opinion was the closest to an equal to the humans than any queerat was in the story. His sacrifice ensured the survival of everything he swore to protect, and he did it knowing that he himself would pay the ultimate price. He was not perfect, but I think he was the best representation of the "noble human" we strive to be.
As much as I liked Kiroumaru, I have to agree with Yakomaru on that he clung to the old ways far too much. Sure he was a bit of a pragmatist and was only trying the best for his people, but he wasn't willing to go through what's needed to make it all work. Yakomaru did indeed lust for power, regardless of what he said in his defense, but he still brought measurable changes for the rat-humans. More than the deal with humans, I can't agree with Kiroumaru's notion that the Queens ought to be let rule over all queerrats. Sure what Yakomaru did was disgusting, but that is still a much better solution than absolute monarchy. And while his "sacrifice" may have stopped Yakomaru's quest for power, I am not so sure it did much for his species. Yakomaru wasn't immortal and had his rebellion succeeded, the rats would have been in power. Thankfully that wasn't the case and there probably is going to be a middle way, courtesy of Saki, Satoru and a newer generation of humans, but strictly for the queerrats, Yakomaru was a better leader than Kiroumaru was. Nobility isn't always a good thing. And humans only fake nobility. Those who really believe themselves to be infallibly noble are the ones who were born with a silver spoon in their mouth and taught the aristocratic ways. And more often than not, their sticking to their nobility causes an ironically ignoble tragedy. Compassion, on the other hand, is a different thing altogether.

For me, there wasn't exactly a true hero in the show. But I loved Satoru's growth, even if the show tried its best to shaft him. And even though the last few episodes tried their best to show otherwise, Saki was a strong female lead. And other than Kiroumaru and Yakomaru, Squonk (was it?) also deserves a mention among the rat-humans. His was probably a better example of selfless service than was Kiroumaru's.
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Old 2013-03-25, 05:46   Link #146
Arya
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Great episode. Great finale. I was skeptical, looking at the direction the show had taken lately, I mean, Saki obsession about the fiend made me fear they would have spend most part of the final episode to "save" the girlfiend.
Instead they really did a great job. I mean, they dedicated basically zero time to the end of the Tokyo "arc" but with such a great symbolic impact, with a rat looking at his dead human comrade (or just to his dead weapon?) mirrored by a human looking to his queerat comrade. It's a thin line between interpretations.

Anyways, then they gave time to Squealer to speak himself, to explain himself and eventually to be vocal for the show, saying that they do are the humans Something I tried to explain before, but I understand that it's still difficult to see. And ultimately not that important.

I once thought that the best ending would have been with Squealer winning over the so called humans, because, well, because a matter of smartness. If one race has become dumb thanks to his power, it's fair that an hungry and smarter race would succeed in its plan, if its plan deserved it, not just because. And it deserved it. In the end humans survived just thanks to a queerat. And nothing else. So basically they alone would have been doomed if a queerat didn't sided with them (we can't say that he betrayed his own kind, can we?). Again, it's a thin line between interpretations.
Instead the narrative went to the opposite direction. But in a way that gave Squealer and queerat the right light to be finally balanced with the humans. In term of humanity. So in the end nobody won in the eyes of the viewers, so I think, in term of good/evil shades. For that reason this ending really surprised me among other aspects. Because it was able to establish a sort of equality that so far has been just hinted, but never truly showed and never acknowledged. And on this equality it's up to anyone siding with one or the other side, knowing that both are flawed, at best.
On my part I slightly sided with the rats as I said for a matter of smartness and this episode surely greatly reinforced that view of mine.

There are many other things I'd like to say but since I have not much time I'll go straight to the point. And the point is that in the end the true Squealer got revealed and so here my Squealer's apology:

1) Squealer the Coward never existed. I mean, it was always a matter of strategy, a matter of logic. A chess game. Where you have to defend your King. And attack with your Queen.
But when his Queen died, he didn't try to escape, he didn't try to kill himself, he didn't beg for mercy. He faced his fate. Whatever it took. And now we do know what it took. And even Squealer knew it, more or less. And that requires not just balls, but big balls. It's easy to be killed/killing himself considering that living would be far more atrocious.
2) When he lost he even discarded his mask. In fact he didn't speak with deference anymore, he didn't looked afraid anymore, not in the way he played to be. He didn't need to lie anymore too. His plan failed. For that reason that was the true Squealer. For better or for worse. And to me he looked far more dignified in that cell, spoiled of his clothes, like a naked mole rat, than before.
3) I think that the fact he surrendered to the humans had his meaning in term of awareness. He didn't escaped because he knew from the start that what he was doing was wrong. Utterly wrong. He knew it all along. But he did for his kind. His whole kind. So he said. And surrendering he demonstrated that he knew it, being in that way honorable. He lost and faced the consequences because he knew that it was wrong killing all that people. Even if they were of a different kind of him.
And we can't say the same for the humans. Saki's request to Squealer to apologize demonstrated it. And for that reason Squealer reply to her felt that strong. Because addressed exactly this difference I'm speaking about.
Having said that, he is still a fa***ng ba***rd who did horrible things and so deserved his punishment if it lasted just some weeks.

In the end basically I guess that what made me siding with the rats was this feeling that humans lacked awareness that killing rats was wrong. And they still lack. And the fact that now they somehow know that rats were humans doesn't matter. It should not matter in the first place. If a being resembles you a bit, speaks like you, walks like you, is smart like you and suffers like you, is it really so relevant if he belongs to your kind or not? I mean, you can kill each other any time, because it is a human nature, but you should know that what you are doing is wrong. It is also human nature. And the show implied that Rats, with Squealer, did know, and humans did not.

Well, I guess that I can end here my Squealer Apology. But I was really surprised to see so much counterbalance in just one episode. But the show was loyal to itself afterall. I mean, you can hate him or not, but Squealer made the show
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Old 2013-03-25, 06:49   Link #147
Tougarashi
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Originally Posted by vansonbee View Post
Good Service~

Best Hero Sacrificial Death Scene award goes to Kiroumaru! Charge out there with that turban, almost fool me thinking he is a human ninja. BELIEVE IT!

Yakomaru chat with Saki/Satoru seem truthful to me. Am I overestimating Yakomaru motivation for this war? Maybe, just maybe, his simple goal was protect the colony and live (reminds me of ants).

Now here are my questions:
1) What the moral of the series?

2) Will Saki master the technique to stay young?

3) The biggest and disgusting twist was the queerat decedents of the former mutated non-powered humans?

Man, if I was those guys back in the day and was certainly transform into a giant looking retarded rat and going home to my lovely family of rats? OH man, now that's a bigger horror than this war...
1) What the moral of the series?

Even the democracy is waring against the dictatorship or communism, it can be failed if there is no Messiah. Think of all the possible ways to protect Messiah who is leading the revolution.

2) Will Saki master the technique to stay young?
Saki won't be because Tomiko-san didn't teach her anything about how to manipulate the telomeres.

3) The biggest and disgusting twist was the queerat decedents of the former mutated non-powered humans?
PK users are retards. They started killing humans in the past and in order for their race to survive they alter the human DNA and made themselves Gods. Changing one's DNA from human to mole-rat is already immoral, slavery is nothing better. On the top of that they create commie village and kill their own kids every now and then in order for their community to survive.
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Old 2013-03-25, 07:01   Link #148
brocko
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I thought Tomiko's ability to manipulate telomeres was something special that only she could do. Kind of like a birth-right or so (similar to Shiseis four pupils and his other wacky abilities). Anyways if it was just merely training, then maybe she could've passed it down to Satoru who would then in turn give it to Saki? (yea a little bit of wishful thinking and perhaps a stretch, i know lol )

I find it rather disappointing that after centuries upon centuries of this 'gotta prevent fiends from ever occurring' prioritised type society, that their best contingency plan for when it does happen is to run wherever the hell away from it as far as you can and hope it starves itself to death or something lol. This along with the above posts raised by Tougarashi do make me feel that PK users were pretty damn narrow-minded. But I guess it's only Human Nature to make mistakes and constantly stumble ass backwards onto the ground over and over again until you miraculously get it right that one time that counts lol
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Old 2013-03-25, 07:36   Link #149
kuromitsu
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Originally Posted by taichi-kun View Post
Hey shun didn't talk to saki anymore..
Yep, Shun never appeared her mind anymore after the akki incident. I think him appearling like that was due to the huge stress and mental/emotion exhaustion in the first place. But now that she remembered him she could finally lay him to rest.

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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
And the show implied that Rats, with Squealer, did know, and humans did not.
What makes you think so?

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I thought Tomiko's ability to manipulate telomeres was something special that only she could do. Kind of like a birth-right or so (similar to Shiseis four pupils and his other wacky abilities).
Yes, Tomiko says that this was says that this was a speciality, something that not even Shisei could do. I always had the impression that her promise of teaching it to Saki was, at least in part if not fully, a way to coax Saki into trusting her even more so she can carry out her mission. Perhaps she really intended to try and teach it to Saki, but then stuff happened.

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I find it rather disappointing that after centuries upon centuries of this 'gotta prevent fiends from ever occurring' prioritised type society, that their best contingency plan for when it does happen is to run wherever the hell away from it as far as you can and hope it starves itself to death or something lol.
Well, Saki's mom dedicates a long section in her letter to tell that they tried, but nothing they tried ended up working. Maybe further research and Saki's experiences will, eventually, help them come up with something.

Last edited by kuromitsu; 2013-03-25 at 08:17.
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Old 2013-03-25, 09:01   Link #150
Arya
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What makes you think so?
Well, as I said, just the fact that he didn't try to avoid to be judged, in any ways, despite what supposedly would wait him, proves it. If you didn't feel guilty about something surely you didn't stay there to be caught (so it's what the anime implied). I think that his choice to be judged by humans implies some morality within his cruelty.
What he said later was that what he did was for strategic reasons. He basically said that there weren't any other ways to accomplish his goal. And to me it sounded like he implied he gave away morality for the logic of his own strategy. The fact that he said that implied that he knew what he was giving away.
But what made it clear was Saki's request. She asked him to deeply apologize. And he didn't refuse to do it, he just asked for equality instead. He'll do it if she also does. His answer hit the nail on the head twice. Firstly because he reaffirmed his desire of equality between races, giving more credit to his true intentions, secondly because he showed us how Saki and Satoru still didn't get the point. Squealer was ready to apologize. And he was because he knew that what he did was wrong, Saki's didn't, because she didn't understand it, yet.

On that surely SSY and PP are quite similar on how they ended. Yes, some more potential on Saki's, but it's a slight difference.
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Old 2013-03-25, 09:38   Link #151
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In the end basically I guess that what made me siding with the rats was this feeling that humans lacked awareness that killing rats was wrong. And they still lack. And the fact that now they somehow know that rats were humans doesn't matter.
Actually the sad thing I get from the story is knowing the rats are intelligent creatures actually won't change anything in fact Saki and Satoru make it clear they can't think of them as human. It comes down to the very reason why the scientists changed them into that in the first place.

If the Pk users think of the Monster Rats as human then it is the Monster Rats who are in control of the PK users. That is to not say it is unfair and cruel, it certainly is. It also is a pretty bleak look at humanity that only if we have these type of controls in place and someone is on top we can survive. This is the same reason why the Monster Rats attacked the humans, in the end it was for their own survival.

I expected for a long time that the Monster Rats were really human, but the "why" they were created hit me the hardest in the same way the explanation of why the children are killed had also hit me.

It is understandable why Squealer thinks of himself as the same as the PK users. We can identify & understand that. I can also understand why Squealer might not be able to accept his place in life like Kiroumaru could, but maybe Kiroumaru was more wise and foreseeing in the end. After all he was at least able to secure the safety and survival of his tribe.

That all being said I think Saki and Satoru's hope in the end reflects that maybe they can still find ways to change for the better and still survive and at the very least maybe they have more understanding of where the Monster Rats are coming from.
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Old 2013-03-25, 09:54   Link #152
omimon
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The two people that were wet for Shun got together. How many animes can you honestly list out where love rivals get together at the end.
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Old 2013-03-25, 10:21   Link #153
Kakkou
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The two people that were wet for Shun got together. How many animes can you honestly list out where love rivals get together at the end.
How many animes can you list where the main love interest and virtually the rest of the main and supporting cast died off before it happened?
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Old 2013-03-25, 11:27   Link #154
Arya
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Actually the sad thing I get from the story is knowing the rats are intelligent creatures actually won't change anything in fact Saki and Satoru make it clear they can't think of them as human. It comes down to the very reason why the scientists changed them into that in the first place.

If the Pk users think of the Monster Rats as human then it is the Monster Rats who are in control of the PK users. That is to not say it is unfair and cruel, it certainly is. It also is a pretty bleak look at humanity that only if we have these type of controls in place and someone is on top we can survive. This is the same reason why the Monster Rats attacked the humans, in the end it was for their own survival.

I expected for a long time that the Monster Rats were really human, but the "why" they were created hit me the hardest in the same way the explanation of why the children are killed had also hit me.
Yes, I didn't spend a word about how previous humans became rats, because, really, if you think about it for more than 2 consecutive seconds it is horrifying far beyond what words can express.
What is sad of this specific act is that I can't really say we wouldn't be able to do it. Even for less relevant reasons.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
It is understandable why Squealer thinks of himself as the same as the PK users. We can identify & understand that. I can also understand why Squealer might not be able to accept his place in life like Kiroumaru could, but maybe Kiroumaru was more wise and foreseeing in the end. After all he was at least able to secure the safety and survival of his tribe.
On this matter our views differ. Firstly because I generally like people proactive who try their best to get better (not referring it to Squealer, generally speaking). And on that surely Squealer and Kiromaru lied in different positions of the pyramid. So (I guess Dawnstorm pointed this out) it's easy to be nice, be honorable, be merciful when it doesn't cost you anything, because of your position. So my consideration of Kiromaru is not that great just because of that.
But if you look closely Squealer didn't win just because of Kiromaru. I mean, he almost won if Kiromaru didn't butt in. In the end even if you don't like squealer he would have freed the queerats from the slavery. So I wouldn't call Kiromaru more wise and foreseeing. Or at least I would if I considered him as my slave. Anyways, in the end he chose to save his tribe remaining a slave over freeing his entire population/race. Whatever you would choose certainly you won't be wrong. But in my opinion what you choose surely defines you as a person.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
That all being said I think Saki and Satoru's hope in the end reflects that maybe they can still find ways to change for the better and still survive and at the very least maybe they have more understanding of where the Monster Rats are coming from.
On Saki and Sautoru I agree that there is some hope. That surely was the message at the end of the show.
Even if I had to be honest Saki never hit me with her proactive-ness. IIRC Saki always made her decisions driven by the feeling for his friends. She started lying to protect his friends, broke the rules for them and ended avoiding to kill the fiend risking to be annihilated, her with her entire population, to save a friend. She was never moved by anything else. But on that I would be glad to be proven wrong.
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Old 2013-03-25, 11:29   Link #155
4Tran
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I figured they were going to bring up that little quip eventually, and I can't say the solution caught me by surprise. I'm just not particularly fond of the clumsy way made the reveal, and in the final episode no less. But that's a minor matter.
I think that the reveal was for the sake of Saki and Satoru, not for the viewer. We've had the clues about the queerats being human since episode 4, but the villagers are wired (indoctrinated even) to not dwell upon the issue. Squealer managed to figure it out on his own, and probably without needing any special library.

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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
I once thought that the best ending would have been with Squealer winning over the so called humans, because, well, because a matter of smartness. If one race has become dumb thanks to his power, it's fair that an hungry and smarter race would succeed in its plan, if its plan deserved it, not just because. And it deserved it. In the end humans survived just thanks to a queerat. And nothing else. So basically they alone would have been doomed if a queerat didn't sided with them (we can't say that he betrayed his own kind, can we?). Again, it's a thin line between interpretations.
That would have been the traditional ending of the evil overlords being overthrown. We've already had a taste of that in one of the early pre-opening vignettes.

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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
2) When he lost he even discarded his mask. In fact he didn't speak with deference anymore, he didn't looked afraid anymore, not in the way he played to be. He didn't need to lie anymore too. His plan failed. For that reason that was the true Squealer. For better or for worse. And to me he looked far more dignified in that cell, spoiled of his clothes, like a naked mole rat, than before.
It's the line "Call me Squealer!" that resonates even more to me than his "We are humans!" The former speaks so much to his dignity and how little he cared for his trappings. The latter is a revelation, but more to the villagers than anyone else.

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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
In the end basically I guess that what made me siding with the rats was this feeling that humans lacked awareness that killing rats was wrong. And they still lack. And the fact that now they somehow know that rats were humans doesn't matter. It should not matter in the first place. If a being resembles you a bit, speaks like you, walks like you, is smart like you and suffers like you, is it really so relevant if he belongs to your kind or not? I mean, you can kill each other any time, because it is a human nature, but you should know that what you are doing is wrong. It is also human nature. And the show implied that Rats, with Squealer, did know, and humans did not.
Exactly. And really, making the queerats human is only to inform the readers who hadn't caught the message earlier.

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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
Well, I guess that I can end here my Squealer Apology. But I was really surprised to see so much counterbalance in just one episode. But the show was loyal to itself afterall. I mean, you can hate him or not, but Squealer made the show
He might be the second greatest rodent-shaped character in anime.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
It is understandable why Squealer thinks of himself as the same as the PK users. We can identify & understand that. I can also understand why Squealer might not be able to accept his place in life like Kiroumaru could, but maybe Kiroumaru was more wise and foreseeing in the end. After all he was at least able to secure the safety and survival of his tribe.
But how safe is it when they still must constantly fear the threat of extermination?

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
That all being said I think Saki and Satoru's hope in the end reflects that maybe they can still find ways to change for the better and still survive and at the very least maybe they have more understanding of where the Monster Rats are coming from.
We can at least be assured that Saki would never agree to the destruction of a queerat colony.
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Old 2013-03-25, 11:45   Link #156
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
But how safe is it when they still must constantly fear the threat of extermination?
I meant the safety and security of his tribe for now.

As the future well I think if Saki and Satoru don't figure something out what happened this time with the Monster Rats could certainly happen again. Just stopping Squealer is not stopping the problem.

Which is why it is important that they don't continue treating them in the same way (even if they can't see them as the same as them).
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Old 2013-03-25, 12:22   Link #157
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I meant the safety and security of his tribe for now.
But vying for temporary security is neither wise nor foreseeing. Only long term plans that can leave them free from the threat of extermination can do that.

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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
As the future well I think if Saki and Satoru don't figure something out what happened this time with the Monster Rats could certainly happen again. Just stopping Squealer is not stopping the problem.

Which is why it is important that they don't continue treating them in the same way (even if they can't see them as the same as them).
Squealer was quite right that the current system was unsustainable. The difference is that he didn't know that there was a way for the village leaders to start seeing things his way. To be fair, the village leaders at the time didn't know this either.
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Old 2013-03-25, 12:54   Link #158
Kirarakim
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
Even if I had to be honest Saki never hit me with her proactive-ness. IIRC Saki always made her decisions driven by the feeling for his friends. She started lying to protect his friends, broke the rules for them and ended avoiding to kill the fiend risking to be annihilated, her with her entire population, to save a friend. She was never moved by anything else. But on that I would be glad to be proven wrong.
Is that wrong though? Should Saki have only looked at the bigger picture? Do her friends and loved ones not matter? You say she wasn't moved by anything but her friends but if you are not moved by those closest to you then what does that say about you as a person? I think it was very understandable and human that Saki did everything to save those closest to her even at the cost of everything else.


I am not saying Saki didn't make mistakes, she certainly did but mistakes don't make you less of a strong character.


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So my consideration of Kiromaru is not that great just because of that.
But if you look closely Squealer didn't win just because of Kiromaru. I mean, he almost won if Kiromaru didn't butt in. In the end even if you don't like squealer he would have freed the queerats from the slavery. So I wouldn't call Kiromaru more wise and foreseeing. Or at least I would if I considered him as my slave. Anyways, in the end he chose to save his tribe remaining a slave over freeing his entire population/race.
Kiroumaru was also fighting against Squealer who was responsible for killing his entire tribe minus the queen. Kiroumaru did not decide to keep his people as slaves (and it is questionable if whether he even thinks of them as that) he wanted to secure the safety of his queen. Kiroumaru's tribe was always his first priorty

I understand Kiroumaru's plan might seem "short term" but if he saves the queen in the short term than the species can find ways to survive in the long term.

Kiroumaru said himself he would have attacked the humans if the opportunity for it came (hence why he was looking for the WMD's) but it was not to better their position it was for their survival.

Anyways Squealer might have been pretty low down the chain in the beginning but he gained power and influence pretty much equal to Kiromaru. I understand why he attacked the humans and he had a good chance of winning but in the end he did not.
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Old 2013-03-25, 13:31   Link #159
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Originally Posted by Arya View Post
On this matter our views differ. Firstly because I generally like people proactive who try their best to get better (not referring it to Squealer, generally speaking). And on that surely Squealer and Kiromaru lied in different positions of the pyramid. So (I guess Dawnstorm pointed this out) it's easy to be nice, be honorable, be merciful when it doesn't cost you anything, because of your position. So my consideration of Kiromaru is not that great just because of that.
But if you look closely Squealer didn't win just because of Kiromaru. I mean, he almost won if Kiromaru didn't butt in. In the end even if you don't like squealer he would have freed the queerats from the slavery. So I wouldn't call Kiromaru more wise and foreseeing. Or at least I would if I considered him as my slave. Anyways, in the end he chose to save his tribe remaining a slave over freeing his entire population/race. Whatever you would choose certainly you won't be wrong. But in my opinion what you choose surely defines you as a person.
But even if Squealer alone has a truly universal conception of humanity, he can only realize it by resorting to tribal politics, his tribe against other Queerat tribes, and Queerat tribes against the PK tribe. He is like Lenin, proclaiming universal revolution, but in actual fact carrying out traditional czarist expansionist policies.

I don't think the ideological differences between Squealer, Kiromaru, and the PK villagers particularly matter. No matter which figure "won," there was only going to be the same sort of tribal politics the show itself illustrates the day after the glorious victory.
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Old 2013-03-25, 18:57   Link #160
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Originally Posted by hyperborealis View Post
But even if Squealer alone has a truly universal conception of humanity, he can only realize it by resorting to tribal politics, his tribe against other Queerat tribes, and Queerat tribes against the PK tribe. He is like Lenin, proclaiming universal revolution, but in actual fact carrying out traditional czarist expansionist policies.

I don't think the ideological differences between Squealer, Kiromaru, and the PK villagers particularly matter. No matter which figure "won," there was only going to be the same sort of tribal politics the show itself illustrates the day after the glorious victory.
Well, what I was trying to say is not that Squealer was the right choice per se, because honestly despite this episode gave us a more rounded and balanced view of Squealer I can't really affirm that he wouldn't have been the worst choice because, really, probably he would, for the reasons you stated about how tribal politics and rivalries usually led to other new conflicts. And for Squealer alone. In fact I did understand Kiromaru choice prioritizing his own tribe over the others.
Where I disagree with you is considering PK villagers like just another tribe. Because they are not. The difference in power is far greater than some queerat tribes. In fact, for now, the status quo has been re-established. And if I recollect right, even before, tribes fought each other. So it's not like having some Gods looking over them preserved them from inter tribes wars.
Instead, considering a Squealer winning scenario in which he would have had the girlfiend as a weapon, it would have been a far more balanced situation. Because she worked only against humans as a lethal weapon, and not queerats.
Anyways, from a queerat perspective, as a race, I would have found more queerat-ish to betray PK-ers instead of queerats. Because in the latter case you, a queerat, are putting your hopes to a single person with a wider mind, among the majority holding a grunge against your race. And more, a person of another race who still doesn't consider you as a "person". In the former case you are betting on a majority who has not any particular view on the matter against a person who you don't know if is good or not, but in the worst case that sooner or later will die.
For that reason I said that this kind of choice would define the person you are. Because choosing your tribe over your race is understandable, but choosing your race over your tribe is what would distinguish you from the crowd.
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