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Old 2013-03-28, 09:30   Link #61
b1gdawg
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Originally Posted by Vindi89 View Post

I'm not sure how letting the village be destroyed so he could lead translates to wanting what's best for the village.
because they wouldn't have the kyuubi...
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Old 2013-03-28, 09:43   Link #62
JustRob
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Originally Posted by b1gdawg View Post
because they wouldn't have the kyuubi...
They still don't, what's your point
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Old 2013-03-28, 11:10   Link #63
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
I think we're missing some key part of the story. I thought we were going to find out why Orochimaru wanted to destroy the Leaf.
Sasuke still has one question to ask and Yondaime hasn't answered anything yet so that's probably coming soon.
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I would have used sympathy. Hashirama very much sympathizes with Madara, in large part because Kishimoto wants us to sympathize with Madara (this of course lends to my description of Madara as a tragic figure partially brought down by his pride).

I still don't know if it is empathy, but I'm willing to acquiesce.
Well I really don't think sympathy is strong enough to describe Hashirama's intent but let's not waste our time with semantic because that wasn't even my main point of contention.
At heart Madara isn't a conqueror or an avenger, subjugation wasn't his goal. Madara was a protector, what destroyed him was the lose of what he wanted to protect the most, the rejection of the rest of his clan and the realization that despite Hashirama's hopes the people from newly formed Konoha would never see him as anything else than double-edged sword at best. Madara is a discarded shield.
Hashirama had an actual point for wanting Madara to be the 1st Hokage, he's the one who gave him the idea to form an alliance with his enemy to make a place where they could protect their loved ones in peace. Had his plan worked and Madara started seeing all of Konoha as the people under his protection and with Hahirama to gound him with his ideal it'd probably had worked too and this would be a very different world, albeit a boring one.
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Old 2013-03-28, 11:42   Link #64
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Hashirama had an actual point for wanting Madara to be the 1st Hokage, he's the one who gave him the idea to form an alliance with his enemy to make a place where they could protect their loved ones in peace. Had his plan worked and Madara started seeing all of Konoha as the people under his protection and with Hahirama to gound him with his ideal it'd probably had worked too and this would be a very different world, albeit a boring one.
I don't know. During this time apparently Madara was visiting other villages effectively trying to rule them (timeline is a little wonky, but Madara should have attacked Mu and Oonoki in Iwa during this time), or at least force them into accepting Konoha as the bestendallgreatestvillageever. That doesn't really seem like a Madara is a discarded shield. Conquering may not be what Madara set out to do when he was a little boy talking with his bestest friend, but damn if his brilliant endgame plan isn't based entirely around completely controlling the populace of everywhere (as I said previously, he is something of a tragic figure).
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Old 2013-03-28, 13:27   Link #65
Hunter
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It's a little unclear when this event took place but it should be after Hashirama became Hokage around the time when Madara finally snapped for good.
But I don't think this event showed Madara trying to rule over Mu and Oonoki, I'm guessing it was basically his version of foreign policy which if anything is another argument to have Madara always staying in Konoha to protect the homeland with Hashirama doing the convincing abroad in order to make new friends instead of piles of corpses.

Last edited by Hunter; 2013-03-29 at 03:24. Reason: typo
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Old 2013-03-28, 13:31   Link #66
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
During this time apparently Madara was visiting other villages effectively trying to rule them (timeline is a little wonky, but Madara should have attacked Mu and Oonoki in Iwa during this time), or at least force them into accepting Konoha as the bestendallgreatestvillageever.
It seems there's a timeskip between Madara hearing what Tobirama was telling to Hashirama and the time when he left the village, i mean between the middle of the chapter and the end. At the end it just says "Madara turns evil", but we didn't see the process, his little battle with Oonoki and Mu could be in that time-span. First he hears how Tobirama is plotting against him, then he had to see how the "democracy" made Hashirama the hokage, which he could interpret as Hashirama's treason since he promised the position to Madara, but even if Madara didn't think that way he surely had some paranoia about Hashirama being controlled by the Senju clan more and more, so i guess all these feelings slowly alienated him to the point where he began plotting against Hashirama and the Leaf village. If the village fails then Uchiha might return to him, but the village didn't fail, so i guess he made a new plan and left the village.

Of course it could be that his encounter with Oonoki was after he left the village, but Oonoki didn't know yet that Madara is not the Leaf's representative any more.
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Old 2013-03-28, 14:12   Link #67
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I don't think Madara thought Hashirama was betraying him, everything show he understood perfectly what kind of person Shodai was. That's why he said the Uchiha's clan was doomed once Tobirama would become Hokage. He trusted Hashirama but he was just one man and once he was gone reality would take its natural course once again.
I also don't think Madara was plotting in the sense you mean. At this point he had already devised his plan to deny and overwrite reality.
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Old 2013-03-28, 14:51   Link #68
Sabaku Kyu
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Seems pretty clear that Hashirama would never give up hope on Madara, much like Naruto with Sasuke, so I'm guessing the outcome is probably that Madara (seemingly) commits seppuku when he's faced with defeat this time.

I'd like to see exactly how the Kyuubi comes into the picture here. We know that the Uchiha shrine describes how the Sharingan can control the fox, but I wonder if it'll be explained why Madara never used it until he went rogue. Maybe it was forbidden by the clan.
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Old 2013-03-28, 14:56   Link #69
Ero-Senn1n
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I also don't think Madara was plotting in the sense you mean. At this point he had already devised his plan to deny and overwrite reality.
But then his little fighing and speech to Oonoki was just how he was? In that scene he definitely was making an enemy of another village while he should know that it does go against Hashirama's will, and also their dream of having a peaceful world. So then it's probably like you told, that it happened after he left the Leaf village, and by then he was thinking that the current world is just for entertainment so he was just playing with Oonoki to have fun, that also explains why he didn't kill him. And it also explains his current behavior, he still believes that his plan will succeed, so he's just having fun fighting the kages and the army. Still it's a bit odd that he's just fooling around while he should know very well that if Obito doesn't resurrect him or Obito himself fails to control the 10-tails then his life-long plan will fail.
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Old 2013-03-28, 15:30   Link #70
Meltyred
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Would be a real nice plot twist if Tobirama turned out to be the true villain, attacking everyone after the flashback is over and then blowing up Konoha, again.
Then he goes and curbstomps Madara, and big bad final boss fight. (I mean, he did make Edo tensei, probably could have upgraded his own outdated version while Hashirama busy talking and then got back control of himself and stuff)
But Kishimoto probably won't do that.
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Old 2013-03-28, 15:30   Link #71
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
I'm guessing it was basically his version of foreign policy which if anything is another argument to have Madara always staying in Konoha to protect the homeland with Hashirama doing the convincing abroad in order to make new friends instead of piles of corpses.
I've seen some suggest another version of this as a possible Naruto ending: Sasuke becomes the future Hokage and Naruto the one that walks the land keeping everybody happy. So many parallels in this manga.

Also I thought this flashback would answer what really happened to the senju clan, but it seems we're running out of flashback time here, already spanning several chapters. Maybe they just diluted over the years and mixed in with the rest of the village, I don't know. The Uchiha were alive and well up until just before the start of the series.
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Old 2013-03-28, 15:50   Link #72
james0246
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Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu View Post
Seems pretty clear that Hashirama would never give up hope on Madara, much like Naruto with Sasuke, so I'm guessing the outcome is probably that Madara (seemingly) commits seppuku when he's faced with defeat this time.

I'd like to see exactly how the Kyuubi comes into the picture here. We know that the Uchiha shrine describes how the Sharingan can control the fox, but I wonder if it'll be explained why Madara never used it until he went rogue. Maybe it was forbidden by the clan.
I imagine next chapter will be dedicated to Hashirama describing how he came upon the Bijuu and how he gave them away. Hopefully we will also get to see a young Mito
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Old 2013-03-28, 16:08   Link #73
JustRob
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Originally Posted by Excelion View Post
I've seen some suggest another version of this as a possible Naruto ending: Sasuke becomes the future Hokage and Naruto the one that walks the land keeping everybody happy. So many parallels in this manga.

Also I thought this flashback would answer what really happened to the senju clan, but it seems we're running out of flashback time here, already spanning several chapters. Maybe they just diluted over the years and mixed in with the rest of the village, I don't know. The Uchiha were alive and well up until just before the start of the series.
In my opinion this shows the difference between the Uchiha and the Senju. As I suggested in another topic, the Uchiha most likely partnered exclusively with clanmembers in order to uphold their powerful bloodline.

The Uchiha are definitely a kind of clan that would want to keep their Sharingan exclusive to themselves, despite how kind that fat old lady in Sasuke's flashbacks seemed...
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Old 2013-03-28, 17:16   Link #74
Miraluka
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So... Am I the only one expecting Kishimoto to make Naruto give up his dream and give it Sasuke thus having the first Uchicha Hokage

Guys, you don't know how painful is that thought.

Spoiler for Like this:



Oh, and I feel like the next chapter will include Madara's own version of Orochimaru, or something like that.
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Old 2013-03-28, 17:16   Link #75
b1gdawg
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Originally Posted by JustRob View Post
They still don't, what's your point
if naruto was captured by pein, im sure Danzo would have stepped in. If danzo was evil, why wouldn't he have gone and joined the akatsuki himself.
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Old 2013-03-28, 17:23   Link #76
JustRob
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if naruto was captured by pein, im sure Danzo would have stepped in. If danzo was evil, why wouldn't he have gone and joined the akatsuki himself.
Right, and what would Danzo have done against Pain? I honestly don't think he would risk his life once Naruto falls into Akatsuki hands.

I never said Danzo was evil. However, for Danzo, anything goes as long as he can become the Hokage. He didn't mind half the village being slaughtered if it meant that he could become Hokage. That may not be evil, but it's a really messed up way of thinking.
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Old 2013-03-29, 00:42   Link #77
Miraluka
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I knew Tobirama was realistic but then I found this.

Quote:
Tobirama realistically killed off all of Hashirama’s efforts.
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Old 2013-03-29, 03:41   Link #78
Hunter
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The problem with people saying Tobirama (or worse Danzou) were pragmatic is that they don't realize those characters aren't living in our world. Pragmatism is the philosophy to base your theories and belief on practice and actual data.
Therefore to be pragmatic in this world would be to admit the empirical fact that the like of Naruto and Hashirama are always right. It doesn't matter if their decision seems dangerous or even insane to you, the fact of the matter is that reality always vindicates them and so in the name of practicality idealism should be the new realpolitik.
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Old 2013-03-29, 07:38   Link #79
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I'm wondering if after the final battle between Hashirama and Madara,if Hashirama kills himself then.Maybe Madara wakes up after he does this and takes Hashiramas body to that underground hideout.Maybe the Zetsu tree is Hashiramas body,maybe thats why Zetsu acted all goofy.I wonder if Edo Hashi can re-absorb all this dna going around.
Oh ,and i hope we find out what Yamatos fate was,is,whatever.
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Old 2013-03-29, 08:03   Link #80
Sabaku Kyu
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
The problem with people saying Tobirama (or worse Danzou) were pragmatic is that they don't realize those characters aren't living in our world. Pragmatism is the philosophy to base your theories and belief on practice and actual data.
Therefore to be pragmatic in this world would be to admit the empirical fact that the like of Naruto and Hashirama are always right. It doesn't matter if their decision seems dangerous or even insane to you, the fact of the matter is that reality always vindicates them
Of course you know, the characters themselves have no way of realizing that. They're incapable of realizing that because their failure to understand is part of the story. You can't say that characters who don't follow Hashirama and Naruto's philosophy are acting irrationally. Within the context of the plot, they are pragmatic though they lack the vision and faith the true heroes have. And the heroes themselves are acting on what they know is right, not knowledge that their actions will invariably be proven to be the correct decision.
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