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Old 2013-04-03, 13:02   Link #21
Casshern
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
He already had his flashback, why would he get another?
Because Kishimoto?
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Old 2013-04-03, 13:15   Link #22
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Originally Posted by Casshern View Post
Because Kishimoto?
I think there might be a possibility for Sarutobi to have a flashback, but I'm not really expecting it. More likely next chapter will be Sasuke's decision...or at least his desire to ask Madara what's the what.
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Old 2013-04-03, 13:45   Link #23
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Madara was pwned to the very end. Maybe his fantasy world is a place where he can finally win for once. I was looking forward to see Edo Madara fight Edo Hashirama, but now I don't see the point.
Yeah you're right, because the Rinnegan doesn't give him any power up or anything.

Also just saying this once more, save the Uzumaki plot dump until Naruto is present. Do you really want to see the Uzumaki flashbacks NOW, when Sasuke is there and not Naruto? You know, the main character who's an Uzumaki? Maybe I'm the crazy one.
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Old 2013-04-03, 13:57   Link #24
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Enough flashbacks! This one was pretty good since it added a lot more to Madara and the First Hokage but it would be better if they focused on the series' climax. I really have no idea what Kishimoto can come up with an Uzumaki flashback since Kushina and Minato never found that important. I really hope Sasuke finally makes up his mind next chapter so that we can go back to Naruto or at least leave the Hokages.
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Old 2013-04-03, 14:05   Link #25
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
He already had his flashback, why would he get another?
well for one, we do need exposition on the uzumakis like some of us have been wanting. also, he was hokage during the kyuubi attack and could provide insight on the uchiha's during that time. him and hiruzen can talk about orochimaru as well.

but i agree minato can wait until naruto and obito are present. one way or another, sasuke also needs to find out that minato is naruto's father, and to a lesser extent that obito is his student (but that discussion/confrontation will be more pertinent for obito, kakashi and naruto). maybe something will happen to break this discussion up and force everyone to fight. just like how tobirama sensed madara's chakra, perhaps madara can sense hashirama is back and will come to them
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Old 2013-04-03, 14:25   Link #26
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Yeah you're right, because the Rinnegan doesn't give him any power up or anything.

Also just saying this once more, save the Uzumaki plot dump until Naruto is present. Do you really want to see the Uzumaki flashbacks NOW, when Sasuke is there and not Naruto? You know, the main character who's an Uzumaki? Maybe I'm the crazy one.
Revelations of the Uzumaki seemed more natural coming from Hashirama and during his story of the villages origins (especially since the Uzumakis decided not to be part of a village). He knew them, he established ties with them, the villages symbol came from them, his wife was a Uzumaki (who supposedly did amazing things that are apparently not important enough to show), etc. Plus, the likelihood of another flashback, especially one after the fighting/story is over, seems very small and ultimately unnecessary (and to have another flashback during the fighting would be even worse).

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
well for one, we do need exposition on the uzumakis like some of us have been wanting.
Why would Minato know anything about the Uzumaki's? They had been killed off by the time he was 6 or so. Consequently, anything he would have known would have been hearsay and rumour (not even Kushina would have known much of the Uzumaki). Hashirama and the other Kages at least had a legitimate connection to the lost clan.

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also, he was hokage during the kyuubi attack and could provide insight on the uchiha's during that time.
What further insight is needed about that time? Obito and Itachi have already covered the Uchiha during that time and shortly after (Madara partially has as well), and Hashirama just filled us in on the blanks from before that time. Besides Sasuke asking if an Uchiha was involved in the attack, nothing Minato could say would be relevant or hasn't already been said.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
him and hiruzen can talk about orochimaru as well.
That could be relevant, but that could also simply be explained by Orochimaru himself...

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but i agree minato can wait until naruto and obito are present.
I like the general idea of Minato talking to Obito, but it is also somewhat pointless. It is Kakashi Obito needs to talk to, not Minato.

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sasuke also needs to find out that minato is naruto's father
Why does it matter? Plus Naruto could always simply tell him...

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
perhaps madara can sense hashirama is back and will come to them
I don't like this at all. What's the point of having any newer (living) generation characters if only the older (deader) generation can defeat them? If zombie Madara is just left to the other zombies, then everything everyone has done against him will be somewhat pointless (plus Naruto will never have the chance to surpass the previous Kages).

Last edited by james0246; 2013-04-03 at 14:38.
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Old 2013-04-03, 14:30   Link #27
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Wow, Hashirama was damn strong, his summon did not only neutralize the kyuubi but it actually made the kyuubi look like a little animal. A hand so large that it could just grab the kyuubi as if it was some little kitten. Hashirama's summon is around the size of the 10-tails. I expected only the wood dragon sucking out the kyuubi's chakra, but the susano armor was really a nice idea from Kishimoto, and it also meant tha Hashirama had to use an even larger jutsu to beat it. No wonder that Madara gets bored when fighting the 5 kages, their jutsu was nowhere near that of the 1st hokage. Now it must really be explained who or what could kill Hashirama. Of course it could even be that he got sick as Kimimaro, that would be boring but at least it wouldn't be something stupid like someone being able to beat him in battle.

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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Revelations of the Uzumaki seemed more natural coming from Hashirama
It seems Hashirama will join this battle against Madara, and he will see there the hope of the alliance and Konoha being a young Uzumaki, that seems to be the best time to have a flashback about the Uzumaki, also Minato could be there too, so they can have a last conversation with Naruto. In which converstion they might have revelations about the clan and in the end they entrust their dream to Naruto and go back to the world of the dead. By the time they reach the alliance Naruto will be probably mentally half-broken by Tobito and Madara, so they'll give to Naruto not only their help in fighting but more importantly they will have to restore Naruto's faith. Naruto meeting all 4 hokages would be also nice because he said he will surpass them all, so here is the best chance to show them and the whole army that he can do that. Also it would be fun to see the 2nd hokage when he realizes that the new hero is like young Hashirama and he can't change that Of course Minato realizing that the masked man was Obito would be interesting too
Also i think that Hashirama and Madara will go back to the world of the dead together, they will maybe even make peace this time. Edo Tensei usually give a "happy end" to those summoned.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-04-03 at 14:41.
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Old 2013-04-03, 14:54   Link #28
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So because it's more natural coming from Hashirama Naruto should miss out on most of his clan's history?
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Old 2013-04-03, 15:03   Link #29
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Why would Minato know anything about the Uzumaki's?
his wife was uzumaki. and he used the reaper death seal. to think he didn't know a lot about the clan seems unreasonable

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What further insight is needed about that time?
then where were they during the attack?

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I like the general idea of Minato talking to Obito, but it is also somewhat pointless. It is Kakashi Obito needs to talk to, not Minato.
it's up to kishi whether it will be pointless or not, but it seems highly likely that they will meet up and have some sort of discussion/fight. also, kakashi's already had his spotlit chance to talk one on one

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Why does it matter (for sasuke to know naruto is his son)?
why does any revelation matter? naruto is sasuke's closest living bond. to know that he is the son of a hokage seems relevant for him to know to me at least. sasuke's always been dumbfounded as to how naruto was so capable despite being a dumbass

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I don't like this at all. What's the point of having any newer (living) generation characters if only the older (deader) generation can defeat them? If zombie Madara is just left to the other zombies, then everything everyone has done against him will be somewhat pointless (plus Naruto will never have the chance to surpass the previous Kages).
the living generation was useless and couldn't defeat madara. he beat all the kages at once... the most relevant person to madara is hashirama and vice versa. with all madara's upgrades he undoubtedly will be more than hashirama alone can handle anyway. it will be a team effort like in itachi and hasirama's lessons about needing a village. part of the reason for this backstory was probably to explain how edo-madara will achieve a sense of peace and leave the living world. hashirama has to be a part of that inner peace
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Old 2013-04-03, 15:50   Link #30
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So because it's more natural coming from Hashirama Naruto should miss out on most of his clan's history?
Honestly, it's not like he cares (he did have 15-16 years to ask questions, but still nothing). He has never expressed interest in his clan before (he's not Sasuke), and it's not like it would matter to him now. Additionally, anything Sasuke learned could have been told to Naruto at a later date.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
his wife was uzumaki. and he used the reaper death seal. to think he didn't know a lot about the clan seems unreasonable
Knowing a few seals is not the same as knowing intimate details from the people themselves.

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then where were they during the attack?
Where was anyone during the attack? I don't see this clamoring for info on the Nara, Hyuuga, or anyone else. Their positioning matters very little to the overall story and not knowing will not create some plot hole.

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it's up to kishi whether it will be pointless or not, but it seems highly likely that they will meet up and have some sort of discussion/fight. also, kakashi's already had his spotlit chance to talk one on one
While Kakashi is not the only one who knows what happened to Rin, it's still his words and actions that are in consideration, not Minato. And if Minato only appears to back up whatever Kakashi says, then he is essentially purposeless to the discussion.

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the living generation was useless and couldn't defeat madara.
They seem to have been doing a pretty damn good job last we saw.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it will be a team effort like in itachi and hasirama's lessons about needing a village.
Undoubtedly...which is what the last chapter of the actual battle was showing us. Zombies fighting zombies sounds ridiculously boring to me. If a character can't die, then there is nothing at stake, so what's the point? And since all the older generation are essentially wrong about everything (even Hashirama has been shown to be "wrong" now), their victory over Madara's ideology would just usher in further darkness and discontent. No, Naruto has to be leading the current generation in defeating Madara or any defeat will be pointless.

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part of the reason for this backstory was probably to explain how edo-madara will achieve a sense of peace and leave the living world. hashirama has to be a part of that inner peace
True, but since Naruto has already been compared to Hashirama (and Madara...and Obito...and the Sage...and Minato...and etc), anything he says could just as easily remind Madara of Hashirama, which will in turn spark that inner peace. I'm not discounting the affect Hashirama would have on Madara, I just don't think it is necessary for a completion to the story (even if Kishimoto wants Madara to have a happy ending...after killing 10,000s).
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:19   Link #31
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finally the flashback is done!
We're going to need some more flashbacks though. We need to find out how Madara survived and what he took from Hashirama. There's also the matter of what happened to the Uzumaki and the Senju, as well as what the Uchiha Clan was doing during the 9-tails attack. Aside from the details of how Hashirama defeated Madara, we didn't find out all that much from this last flashback that we didn't already know.

I don't have any particularly strong theories on how Madara survived. The fact that both of his eyes survived to the present suggests that he didn't use Izanagi. Zetsu would have been able to copy Madara's appearance exactly and substitute a dead body (like he did with Kisame), but it's not clear if Zetsu even existed at this point. (Not the black/white Zetsu obviously, but just a regular white one)
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Old 2013-04-03, 16:44   Link #32
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Hashirama seems to be pretty certain he killed Madara. Yet we know for a fact Madara survived.

Also, Zetsu didn't exist until later. Madara did not have Hashirama's DNA before their fight.
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:03   Link #33
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Explanatory flashbacks are fine by me.
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Old 2013-04-03, 17:37   Link #34
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Explanatory flashbacks are fine by me.
At some point you have to stop explaining things and need to get back to moving the main plot along. Flashbacks are best in small doses.
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:19   Link #35
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Yeah you're right, because the Rinnegan doesn't give him any power up or anything.
After this flashback anything to do with Hashirama seems pointless. Madara had to witness the death of a loved one to attain his MS, lose his eyesight, then take his own brother's eyes to acquire his EMS, all the time driven crazy by his own doujutsu, and then even used the kyuubi, just to be on a level with the power that Hashirama was simply born with without any drawbacks. To see Madara defeating Hashirama now, after this ridiculously convoluted Aizen-esque plan, and needing to use Hashirama's own power no less, is just "meh". And it's not even certain that he'll win.
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Old 2013-04-03, 18:54   Link #36
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Hashirama seems to be pretty certain he killed Madara. Yet we know for a fact Madara survived.

Also, Zetsu didn't exist until later. Madara did not have Hashirama's DNA before their fight.
I think the reason he seems sure about killing him is because Madara as a final gamble used his sharingan. The last time we see it turned on is when the 1st jumps down from the smoke, then its turned off completely. I think he captured him with it and took part of him while in his head he killed madara but in reality he didn't.

Because we see the 1st fall to one knee later, it could be mean hes exhausted which would make sense, or that could be the time madara took a part of him and he dropped from that. Would explain how he survived instead of someone bringing him back to life.
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Old 2013-04-03, 20:17   Link #37
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I bet there was some deep symbolism in the final fight involving the rocks. Too bad I didn't pay attention. Still, now it's obvious. The First Hokage and Madara are the mirror image of Naruto and Sasuke although the former pair were pressured since they led groups.
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Old 2013-04-03, 20:49   Link #38
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I think the reason he seems sure about killing him is because Madara as a final gamble used his sharingan. The last time we see it turned on is when the 1st jumps down from the smoke, then its turned off completely. I think he captured him with it and took part of him while in his head he killed madara but in reality he didn't.

Because we see the 1st fall to one knee later, it could be mean hes exhausted which would make sense, or that could be the time madara took a part of him and he dropped from that. Would explain how he survived instead of someone bringing him back to life.
i like this...
i do believe however that madara stated he placed the cells directly into his wound. so it just as likely he removed the blood from his scythe from when they did that jump across the water/field thing ninjas tend to do when dueling to the death.

plus i tend to think kishi pays attention to detail when it counts lol...and that sword seemed to midline to have impaled madaras heart...
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Old 2013-04-03, 22:12   Link #39
itachi-san314
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Knowing a few seals is not the same as knowing intimate details from the people themselves.
so you're assuming he never had an intimate conversation with kushina about it from childhood up until their deaths? also, to know those seals he probably went to the uzumakis shrine which we were just shown

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Where was anyone during the attack? I don't see this clamoring for info on the Nara, Hyuuga, or anyone else. Their positioning matters very little to the overall story and not knowing will not create some plot hole.
the hyuuga and nara weren't being blamed for it. the uchiha's absence is the only clan that matters

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While Kakashi is not the only one who knows what happened to Rin, it's still his words and actions that are in consideration, not Minato. And if Minato only appears to back up whatever Kakashi says, then he is essentially purposeless to the discussion.
why do you think kakashi knows the whole story about rin? i bet it is only madara. the reveal will probably make obito turn on him. futilely of course.

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They seem to have been doing a pretty damn good job last we saw.
edo-madara is barely trying right now. from what i've seen they haven't done much at all. certainly nothing close to victory or 'a pretty damn good job'

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Undoubtedly...which is what the last chapter of the actual battle was showing us. Zombies fighting zombies sounds ridiculously boring to me. If a character can't die, then there is nothing at stake, so what's the point? And since all the older generation are essentially wrong about everything (even Hashirama has been shown to be "wrong" now), their victory over Madara's ideology would just usher in further darkness and discontent. No, Naruto has to be leading the current generation in defeating Madara or any defeat will be pointless.
i agree about naruto leading, but all the zombie stuff is boring. it doesn't make it more boring to me if it's 2 zombies as opposed to one. no matter what, the zombies can't die in normal fashions. they're already dead which is why this war sucks. at least partly why it sucks. one whole side is basically made up of no real living people aside from obito and kabuto

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True, but since Naruto has already been compared to Hashirama (and Madara...and Obito...and the Sage...and Minato...and etc), anything he says could just as easily remind Madara of Hashirama, which will in turn spark that inner peace. I'm not discounting the affect Hashirama would have on Madara, I just don't think it is necessary for a completion to the story (even if Kishimoto wants Madara to have a happy ending...after killing 10,000s).
obviously it's just a guess, but i doubt the hokages were brought back without kishi planning some very personal reunions with madara, obito, kakashi, naruto and even hiruzen and orochimaru to a larger extent then we have seen so far.
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Old 2013-04-03, 23:36   Link #40
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so you're assuming he never had an intimate conversation with kushina about it from childhood up until their deaths? also, to know those seals he probably went to the uzumakis shrine which we were just shown
What would Kushina know? The Uzumaki were destroyed while she was only a child, and she wasn't even in the country when her clan was destroyed. Any info she would have would be just as much hearsay and rumour as anything Minato would know. And if the repeated flashbacks addressing the same events have taught us anything, not being directly connected to an event means you don't actually know what happened which means even more flashbacks to try and explain what happened...

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the hyuuga and nara weren't being blamed for it. the uchiha's absence is the only clan that matters
All I remember is that Itachi and Sasuke were left in the line of fire, and if the clan was trying to use the Kyuubi to destroy the village, they would have to be incredibly stupid to leave the clan leader's kids right in the path of destruction...

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why do you think kakashi knows the whole story about rin? i bet it is only madara. the reveal will probably make obito turn on him. futilely of course.
Why do you think Minato knows the whole story if Kakashi doesn't? You've essentially said that Minato's participation in the discussion is even more inconsequential since he knows nothing about what happened to Rin...

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
edo-madara is barely trying right now. from what i've seen they haven't done much at all. certainly nothing close to victory or 'a pretty damn good job'
It might be a stretch, but it is not hopeless, or at least not hopeless enough that even more deus ex machina need to come in to deal with the issue.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but all the zombie stuff is boring.
I don't mind many of the zombie fights. Gaara's father, Sai's brother, Muu and the third Raikage. Most/All of them are a little fillerish and definitely pandering, but they are still somewhat dramatic and there are risks and costs in their battle. Their are no risks and no costs when two zombies fight, though.

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at least partly why it sucks.
Bad pacing and focus on uninteresting characters is why the war is boring to me.

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obviously it's just a guess, but i doubt the hokages were brought back without kishi planning some very personal reunions with madara, obito, kakashi, naruto and even hiruzen and orochimaru to a larger extent then we have seen so far.
Sadly, this is probably true.
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