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Old 2013-04-04, 00:44   Link #41
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
What would Kushina know?
that's kind of my point. we dont know what kushina knew or what minato knows about them. with hashirama and tobirama dead at the time of their destruction only hiruzen and minato should be able to know everything. and i'd lean toward minato given his ties to the clan

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All I remember is that Itachi and Sasuke were left in the line of fire, and if the clan was trying to use the Kyuubi to destroy the village, they would have to be incredibly stupid to leave the clan leader's kids right in the path of destruction...
dont you find it weird that kishi didnt show the uchiha fighting the kyuubi? they must not have or else why would the village blame them for the attack? i feel like that wouldn't make sense but maybe it's not as big an issue as i think it is...

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Why do you think Minato knows the whole story if Kakashi doesn't? You've essentially said that Minato's participation in the discussion is even more inconsequential since he knows nothing about what happened to Rin...
i dont think that. you brought up Rin, but i dont think she pertains to this conversation. she'll be part of another madara and obito flashback or revelation most likely since we dont know what happened with her and it was probably all part of madara's plan to turn obito to his side of world domination

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It might be a stretch, but it is not hopeless, or at least not hopeless enough that even more deus ex machina need to come in to deal with the issue.
we need more saviors from a writing perspective. it would be lackluster to have the fight finish with the same elements it had prior to the hokages being revived and this madara flashback

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Their are no risks and no costs when two zombies fight, though.
aside from madara ruling the world or not...
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Old 2013-04-04, 00:59   Link #42
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Regarding whatever Kushina may or may not know about the Uzumakis, we know for a fact that she was on speaking terms with Mito.

That alone doesn't really mean anything, but if she did know something she wouldn't be pulling it out of thin air.
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Old 2013-04-04, 01:43   Link #43
james0246
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's kind of my point. we dont know what kushina knew or what minato knows about them.
And due to their ages, it doesn't matter what they know because it most probably isn't first hand information. Sarutobi is a possibility. Arguably, he is the only one who was alive during all flashbacks (though he had little interaction with many of the events seen previous to his ascension to Kage). If he were to tell Naruto of his heritage, that would be fine (it would also be nice to see them together again). I just don't see a time when he could adequately tell Naruto about his heritage (there is very little time for anyone to tell Naruto anything).

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
dont you find it weird that kishi didnt show the uchiha fighting the kyuubi?
Not really. There were plenty of shinobi that did nothing during the encounter. I never say a Hyuuga and beyond the Yamanaka and Akimichi (who have clan specific traits) it's hard to tell who's who and what's what.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
maybe it's not as big an issue as i think it is...
I don't discount the possibility that it is something, I just don't really see a reason for it to need to be something...

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i dont think that. you brought up Rin, but i dont think she pertains to this conversation.
Obito's entire world view is based on the assumption that life sucks since Rin is dead. He may have talked himself into believing that a dream world is a blessing for all, but the root cause of his belief is based entirely in the idea that Rin was murdered by a friend. If you erase that founding idea, then the rest of the foundation could potentially crumble.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
we need more saviors from a writing perspective.
Not really. We already have Naruto, the Kyuubi, whatever the Bijuu gave him, Sage Mode, and his two armies of clones and actual soldiers; the living Kages are coming back for Round 2 (3?); plus Sasuke is going to do something. There are already enough living characters that can be used to take down Madara is a sufficient enough manner (and only Kakashi and a good teammate are needed to take down Obito).

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
aside from madara ruling the world or not...
If a zombie is the one to defeat Madara, then what's the point of the story of Naruto? Madara, Hashirama, Obito and Sasuke are all representations of the failure of the current systems. They all have their own little solutions and ideas, and all are wrong. Naruto, for better or worse, is the only one who can lead the characters into the bright future (sickening, but true). He need not necessarily strike the final blow (though he probably will), but it is his will that is creating the fundamental existential discussion at the root of this entire encounter. His answers are trite and uninspired, but damn if Kishimoto hasn't bent over backwards to validate Naruto's answers in every possible way.
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Old 2013-04-04, 02:09   Link #44
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Flashbacks and storytelling isn't done yet. It's time for Tobirama and Hiruzen to tell their tales now. Then the 4th Hokage... and then for Sasuke to tell them his tales.

Then the plot can finally move forward.
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Old 2013-04-04, 02:11   Link #45
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I don't mind more flashbacks as long as it's good stuff.

Madara could use a few more flashbacks as well. What has he been doing from his fight with Hashirama up until the end of his life? In Obito's flashback he was already an old man, surely he hasn't just been sitting still next to the Gedo Mazo doing nothing?
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Old 2013-04-04, 02:41   Link #46
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I think... enough of this flashback we got the idea, all fruit are harvested from this story and now it's about a time to have some action with main plot.
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Old 2013-04-04, 02:47   Link #47
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Yeah because Jyuubi firing bijuudama's and Madara and Naruto bashing each other's head in is very exciting
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Old 2013-04-04, 05:17   Link #48
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
I think there might be a possibility for Sarutobi to have a flashback, but I'm not really expecting it. More likely next chapter will be Sasuke's decision...or at least his desire to ask Madara what's the what.
That's what you would logically expect to happen.. but we all know Kishimoto is dragging it out as much as possible.
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Old 2013-04-04, 08:11   Link #49
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Why is this history so secretive. The foundations of Konoha should have been written in stone as a warning that the Village and what it stands for comes first!
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Old 2013-04-04, 09:46   Link #50
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by james0246 View Post
Obito's entire world view is based on the assumption that life sucks since Rin is dead. He may have talked himself into believing that a dream world is a blessing for all, but the root cause of his belief is based entirely in the idea that Rin was murdered by a friend. If you erase that founding idea, then the rest of the foundation could potentially crumble.
i agree, i just think its more of a madara revelation than a minato one, since madara was most likely the one behind it all. how else would he have known exactly where to send obito at exactly the right time? my guess is that he had zetsu set the whole thing up. we also need to find out what happened to spiral zetsu so whatever that flashback is would probably be the best time to include the last bits of info on rin.

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Not really. We already have Naruto, the Kyuubi, whatever the Bijuu gave him, Sage Mode, and his two armies of clones and actual soldiers; the living Kages are coming back for Round 2 (3?); plus Sasuke is going to do something. There are already enough living characters that can be used to take down Madara is a sufficient enough manner (and only Kakashi and a good teammate are needed to take down Obito).
agree to disagree i guess. from what i see, hashirama is by far the most important character to madara. if they don't meet and or fight then i'd be very surprised

Quote:
If a zombie is the one to defeat Madara, then what's the point of the story of Naruto? Madara, Hashirama, Obito and Sasuke are all representations of the failure of the current systems. They all have their own little solutions and ideas, and all are wrong. Naruto, for better or worse, is the only one who can lead the characters into the bright future (sickening, but true). He need not necessarily strike the final blow (though he probably will), but it is his will that is creating the fundamental existential discussion at the root of this entire encounter. His answers are trite and uninspired, but damn if Kishimoto hasn't bent over backwards to validate Naruto's answers in every possible way.
dont get me wrong. i agree that naruto will be the ultimate savior here, i just think the hokages will play a role in this fight up until that point. its a fighting manga above all else. to re-introduce 4 of the best fighters ever and not have them fight would be more than strange and squander an amazing opportunity for some kickass fights and moments
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Old 2013-04-04, 11:48   Link #51
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I think the reason he seems sure about killing him is because Madara as a final gamble used his sharingan. The last time we see it turned on is when the 1st jumps down from the smoke, then its turned off completely. I think he captured him with it and took part of him while in his head he killed madara but in reality he didn't.

Because we see the 1st fall to one knee later, it could be mean hes exhausted which would make sense, or that could be the time madara took a part of him and he dropped from that. Would explain how he survived instead of someone bringing him back to life.
You think he used Tsukuyomi on Hashirama? I guess it's possible, but I feel that Hashirama, after spending an entire lifetime fighting the Uchiha, would have developed a counter to it. I think the fact that Madara had to resort to Susanoo shows that Hashirama was above the level where he could be taken out by Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.

Another possibility is that Madara used a fission technique similar to the one performed by the 2nd Tsuchikage Muu. It would have left Madara alive, but at half his normal strength.
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Old 2013-04-04, 12:06   Link #52
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
You think he used Tsukuyomi on Hashirama? I guess it's possible, but I feel that Hashirama, after spending an entire lifetime fighting the Uchiha, would have developed a counter to it. I think the fact that Madara had to resort to Susanoo shows that Hashirama was above the level where he could be taken out by Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.
yea, seeing as how hashirama and tobirama showed no sign of intimidation at sasuke's MS, i have to agree that they (especially hashirama) were beyond being genjutsu'd into believing things. edo tensei is apparently not even strong enough to hold hashirama. something like tsukiyomi seems inferior at this point when dealing with 'the god of shinobi'. we saw sasuke break itachi's tsukiyomi at just a normal sharingan level

just adding: another possibility is that madara awakens the rinnegan after he integrated hashirama's dna into himself after the VotE fight we just saw. so he could either control life and death or absorb chakra to rejuvenate himself. we saw jiraiya will himself back to life for a short amount of time, so if madara did that with rinnegan it should be enough to justify him living on

Last edited by itachi-san314; 2013-04-04 at 12:17.
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Old 2013-04-04, 12:31   Link #53
JustRob
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Originally Posted by Hiking_Bear View Post
You think he used Tsukuyomi on Hashirama? I guess it's possible, but I feel that Hashirama, after spending an entire lifetime fighting the Uchiha, would have developed a counter to it. I think the fact that Madara had to resort to Susanoo shows that Hashirama was above the level where he could be taken out by Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi.

Another possibility is that Madara used a fission technique similar to the one performed by the 2nd Tsuchikage Muu. It would have left Madara alive, but at half his normal strength.
I don't think there is any counter to Tsukuyomi. If there was, Obito and Madara wouldn't be planning to control the whole world through Tsukuyomi. There would be no point if someone could break it.

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yea, seeing as how hashirama and tobirama showed no sign of intimidation at sasuke's MS, i have to agree that they (especially hashirama) were beyond being genjutsu'd into believing things. edo tensei is apparently not even strong enough to hold hashirama. something like tsukiyomi seems inferior at this point when dealing with 'the god of shinobi'. we saw sasuke break itachi's tsukiyomi at just a normal sharingan level

just adding: another possibility is that madara awakens the rinnegan after he integrated hashirama's dna into himself after the VotE fight we just saw. so he could either control life and death or absorb chakra to rejuvenate himself. we saw jiraiya will himself back to life for a short amount of time, so if madara did that with rinnegan it should be enough to justify him living on
You have to take into consideration that Itachi may have allowed Sasuke to break Tsukuyomi, since Itachi wanted Sasuke to win.

Also, Madara said he awakened Rinnegan right before he died. So he couldn't have awakened it right after the battle.
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Old 2013-04-04, 12:50   Link #54
itachi-san314
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I don't think there is any counter to Tsukuyomi. If there was, Obito and Madara wouldn't be planning to control the whole world through Tsukuyomi. There would be no point if someone could break it.
there is a difference between tsukiyomi and infinite tsukiyomi that isn't exactly clear yet, but there is definitely a difference. whatever genjutsu madara was capable of during the VotE fight probably wasn't even comparable to infinite tsukiyomi's power.

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You have to take into consideration that Itachi may have allowed Sasuke to break Tsukuyomi, since Itachi wanted Sasuke to win.
itachi wanted to prove to himself that sasuke was strong enough to defend himself. if he didnt make sasuke break the technique on his own, then doing it at all would have been pointless. also, black zetsu explained that a normal sharingan could break a MS technique since they are just tools and it's the user who's skill matters. the part when everything turned black and white and the image was separated like a puzzle was indicative of the technique being dispelled

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Also, Madara said he awakened Rinnegan right before he died. So he couldn't have awakened it right after the battle.
that whole 'right before he died' business has already been proven to be more metaphorical or at least not even close to an exact timeframe since we know he gave it to nagato when nagato was very young, which was well before madara died.

also if madara awakened rinnegan and then died at that time like hashirama thought and then was brought back to life somehow, then he did in fact gain the rinnegan right before he died. there are many ways kishi can explain it
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Old 2013-04-04, 13:05   Link #55
kitten320
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Am I the only one who finds Madara pathetic?

I still don't get why he decided to destroy Konoha that he himself build.
If he was a psycho who enjoyed destruction, yes. But sadly he is not and his motivations are pretty dumb.

He also didn't seem like big shot if Hashirama took him down alone. Though it makes current Kage's look even worse but then again Madara is immortal now.

However, if he did die that day. Then how did he ended up old in a cave with Obito?
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Old 2013-04-04, 13:18   Link #56
JustRob
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
there is a difference between tsukiyomi and infinite tsukiyomi that isn't exactly clear yet, but there is definitely a difference. whatever genjutsu madara was capable of during the VotE fight probably wasn't even comparable to infinite tsukiyomi's power.

itachi wanted to prove to himself that sasuke was strong enough to defend himself. if he didnt make sasuke break the technique on his own, then doing it at all would have been pointless. also, black zetsu explained that a normal sharingan could break a MS technique since they are just tools and it's the user who's skill matters. the part when everything turned black and white and the image was separated like a puzzle was indicative of the technique being dispelled

that whole 'right before he died' business has already been proven to be more metaphorical or at least not even close to an exact timeframe since we know he gave it to nagato when nagato was very young, which was well before madara died.

also if madara awakened rinnegan and then died at that time like hashirama thought and then was brought back to life somehow, then he did in fact gain the rinnegan right before he died. there are many ways kishi can explain it
Even so. Tsukuyomi is a pretty powerful technique and even Kakashi couldn't break it even though he had his Sharingan a lot longer then Sasuke. Also, Itachi was stronger then Sasuke. Obito said he had no doubt that Sasuke would be dead if Itachi had been serious. How could he possibly break the ultimate genjutsu?

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Am I the only one who finds Madara pathetic?

I still don't get why he decided to destroy Konoha that he himself build.
If he was a psycho who enjoyed destruction, yes. But sadly he is not and his motivations are pretty dumb.

He also didn't seem like big shot if Hashirama took him down alone. Though it makes current Kage's look even worse but then again Madara is immortal now.

However, if he did die that day. Then how did he ended up old in a cave with Obito?
Madara didn't die. He just didn't. I don't know how he survived, but people can't just magically come back to life after dieing. A lot of crazy stuff happens in Naruto, but that's not one of them.
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Old 2013-04-04, 14:07   Link #57
Eragon
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I don't know how he survived, but people can't just magically come back to life after dieing. A lot of crazy stuff happens in Naruto, but that's not one of them.
Yeah, right........Who does that? Killing people only to bring them back?

"People die when they are killed" - never thought I would find something where this actually applies.
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Old 2013-04-04, 14:20   Link #58
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Yeah, right........Who does that? Killing people only to bring them back?

"People die when they are killed" - never thought I would find something where this actually applies.
Are you trying to be sarcastic or what?
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Old 2013-04-04, 14:23   Link #59
Eragon
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For someone posting so many sarcastic one liners, you really have to ask?
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Old 2013-04-04, 14:24   Link #60
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For someone posting so many sarcastic one liners, you really have to ask?
You got me there.
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