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Old 2013-04-09, 22:23   Link #21
NoemiChan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
(Looks like he just meant CG, as opposed to audience-facing 3D.)
Wait>>>>!!!!! CGs are 3D? Really? I never thought of it that way!!!

Tinklebell's CG animation are 3D!!!
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:31   Link #22
Chiibi
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Anime in 3D while all movies released in America have been DOMINATED by this freaking style?

I apologize for such a blunt reply but:

DO.
NOT.
WANT.
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:32   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuu View Post
More realistic looking characters.

EDIT: And oh, imagine hentai being done in CG. XD
By the point when something becomes "realistic looking" enough to the point that 2D animation won't be able to replicate it, I sincerely doubt it would really be labeled as anime. Also, your edit was completely unnecessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I think 3D can be a nice way of "jazzing up" certain important scenes in an otherwise 2D show. I'm probably in the minority here, but I honestly liked how 3D was used in Love Live!, for example.

But I do hope that anime remains predominantly 2D.

2D is increasingly getting pushed out by 3D in the west, so I'd like for anime to continue to embrace 2D as the most commonly used form of animation. I'd absolutely hate to see classic 2D animation disappear entirely.
This is more or less how I feel. I think 3D elements work very well sometimes in conjunction with traditional 2D animation, but completely replacing it would be rather undesirable. Whenever I see 3D animated/CG films, it just feels extremely odd instead of whatever it was trying to accomplish. Is it going for realism? Clearly not, because a lot of Pixar/Disney films still look cartoony. I really don't get it. It's not like traditional 2D animation where everything that happens in the show just feels natural, because you know that it's a cartoon. (It's actually rather hard to convey this exactly) But 3D animated/CG films are just on that uncanny valley where I don't know what it's trying to accomplish because it doesn't necessarily look better than 2D animation.
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:42   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
Wait>>>>!!!!! CGs are 3D? Really? I never thought of it that way!!!

Tinklebell's CG animation are 3D!!!
Uh, well, the terminology is just confusing. When you say "I'm going to see a 3D Movie", that usually means you're wearing 3D glasses. But, take a movie like Pixar's Toy Story or whatever, that's using "3D computer graphics" (usually abbreviated CG), but wasn't originally shown in 3D. Some people call that "CG animation". But when you're talking about visual novels, what they call "CGs" are just computer-coloured/finished 2D drawings (that can sometimes be "animated"), and not renders of 3D objects. Even if you just call it "computer animation", which probably makes sense, a lot of even regular anime is still produced with extensive computer involvement these days. So whatever term you use to describe it has conflicting definitions that can confuse people.

Anyway, could be that my mind is just blanking out, but I have no idea what the best term to use is. I don't think "3D" is it though.
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:45   Link #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marly View Post
This is more or less how I feel. I think 3D elements work very well sometimes in conjunction with traditional 2D animation, but completely replacing it would be rather undesirable. Whenever I see 3D animated/CG films, it just feels extremely odd instead of whatever it was trying to accomplish. Is it going for realism? Clearly not, because a lot of Pixar/Disney films still look cartoony. I really don't get it. It's not like traditional 2D animation where everything that happens in the show just feels natural, because you know that it's a cartoon. (It's actually rather hard to convey this exactly) But 3D animated/CG films are just on that uncanny valley where I don't know what it's trying to accomplish because it doesn't necessarily look better than 2D animation.
I pretty much agree.

Kyuu is right that 3D animation can come a bit closer to realism than 2D animation is able to... but that's actually not how 3D animation tends to be used in the more recent major animated films. A lot of those 3D CGI animated films look less realistic than your average 2D anime.

For a lot of these 3D CGI animated films, it's about taking something cartoony, and just translating it into a 3D image. It's like that old Simpsons episode where Homer temporarily goes 3D after being sent into the real world.

While this "Cartoony 3D" can be a bit amusing to look at for a little bit, I don't think I'd want to watch it for 2 hours straight. So yeah, its popularity in the west is a bit of a mystery to me. All I can guess is that kids go for it for some reason (I was an adult by the time that this "Cartoony 3D" look had taken off).


At the end of the day, I'd take a fairly standard anime style over something that makes me think of The Simpsons gone 3D.
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Old 2013-04-09, 22:46   Link #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Uh, well, the terminology is just confusing. When you say "I'm going to see a 3D Movie", that usually means you're wearing 3D glasses. But, take a movie like Pixar's Toy Story or whatever, that's using "3D computer graphics" (usually abbreviated CG), but wasn't originally shown in 3D. Some people call that "CG animation". But when you're talking about visual novels, what they call "CGs" are just computer-coloured/finished 2D drawings (that can sometimes be "animated"), and not renders of 3D objects. Even if you just call it "computer animation", which probably makes sense, a lot of even regular anime is still produced with extensive computer involvement these days. So whatever term you use to describe it has conflicting definitions that can confuse people.

Anyway, could be that my mind is just blanking out, but I have no idea what the best term to use is. I don't think "3D" is it though.
3D *models* but yeah, a virtual camera is placed and the recording is equivalent to 2D. Games can be played with focus to increase the depth illusion.

CG animation is probably a fair term but that could just as easily describe Pac-man as Pixar ... hmmm. So far all I've got is waving my arms and saying "yeah, that stuff". bzzzzzt to me.
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Old 2013-04-09, 23:40   Link #27
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There are some people that just cannot handle CG anything.
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Old 2013-04-09, 23:52   Link #28
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This is 3d anime. Eroge OP..

NSFW
Warning: Not safe to view at work or school!
Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?
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Old 2013-04-10, 00:02   Link #29
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Originally Posted by GenjiChan View Post
This is 3d anime. Eroge OP..

NSFW
Warning: Not safe to view at work or school!
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I've seen a small clip from this series somewhere. It's "hyper realistic" (exaggerated movements and shiny) but kind of mezmerizing.
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Old 2013-04-10, 00:03   Link #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I've seen a small clip from this series somewhere. It's "hyper realistic" (exaggerated movements and shiny) but kind of mezmerizing.
It's lovely right?! Neh, neh?
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Old 2013-04-14, 09:38   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Anime in 3D while all movies released in America have been DOMINATED by this freaking style?

I apologize for such a blunt reply but:

DO.
NOT.
WANT.
Yeah, but I wish the anime industry would adapt something like the Paperman short film from Disney.
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Old 2013-04-14, 09:58   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I guess a key question is whether the original poster meant "3D" as in "using CG to animate 3D objects" (in which case a lot of anime already does this, at least in part), or "3D" as in wear the glasses and things are popping-out of your monitor/TV and slapping you in the face ( ). I suppose it's unlikely you'd have the latter without using CG, though, because the costs of 3D compositing would be too high for something hand-drawn. (I think it probably has been done, though, and cel-shading has definitely been getting better.)

(Looks like he just meant CG, as opposed to audience-facing 3D.)
The later does not sounds so bad through.

Oh even better, a dating sims using that 3D mechanic.

The problem is of course the cost, too risky for any anime studio to try out
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Old 2013-04-14, 14:24   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
The later does not sounds so bad through.

Oh even better, a dating sims using that 3D mechanic.

The problem is of course the cost, too risky for any anime studio to try out
Well you do have the new Love Plus game on the 3DS that is in 3D, and there are some other games related to the genre on the same platform.

For traditional anime to be in audience-facing 3D... I agree that it'd probably be too cost-prohibitive unless it was actually all "3D CG" to start with as well. I think artists are getting better at retaining the anime visual aesthetic in 3D, though, so it certainly isn't insurmountable.

(In general terms, though, the audience-facing 3D thing doesn't seem to have really caught on with the general public that much, mostly due to the glasses issue. It's an idea that probably will come back around again in some time once technology improves further.)
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Old 2013-04-14, 16:24   Link #34
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Originally Posted by Benigmatica View Post
Yeah, but I wish the anime industry would adapt something like the Paperman short film from Disney.
Yeah, the "Paperman" short is just beautiful to watch. It's clearly a cartoon with the exaggerated eyes and caricatures but it is exceptionally immersive.
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Old 2013-04-14, 22:34   Link #35
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I know we're talking about 3D in terms of the actual models and the animation, but I do want to do a little tidbit on what we "Americans" know as 3D.

During what I feel may have been the height of 3D movies (about the time they started pushing for it. I feel like they've really stopped caring so much), I had the chance to see a couple 3D movies and I really liked what I saw. Let me explain...

Pirates of the Caribbean: On Stranger Tides was by far the best movie I could have watched to get an idea of what 3D is really best at: Creating a sense of depth, a third dimension if you will. I give that movie a lot of credit for that technology because they did a very good job of using it to the advantage of the scenes. I think that anime could certainly replicate this effect (perhaps more easily because it's not filmed) and put it to good use.

As far as what we're actually talking about, CG in anime has come a long way since what it used to be. For many anime the CG used is at the point where it's very tolerable. Once upon a time CG was bulky-looking, discolored, and alien. Now it can fit with the style of the series far better.

If at this point I've somehow not touched on the subject of this topic I'm going to find my corner.
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Old 2013-04-15, 07:09   Link #36
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First post for me for years on this forum.

I've never been a massive fan of 3D cgi in anime, be it Appleseed or 2001 Nights: TO. I like the 2D much more.

One thing I am looking forward to is in a couple of weeks though is Sci-Fi London's Anime All-nighter (my 9th time going to it). They are showing 2 films that will be a good test for modern 3D.

They are 009 Re: Cyborg in 3D, which will be my first animated feature seen in 3D and the other is the first Berserk film. I've seen the first 2 already, no question the second one looks alot better. But My real question is how will they look on the big screen.
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Old 2013-04-21, 19:05   Link #37
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It's been mentioned twice before but I'll echo it with a link to the video. If you haven't already, watch Disney's Paperman short:



If I had not been informed ahead of time that it was made completely with 3D CGI tools and rendered I would not have known that it wasn't hand-drawn and created with traditional animation. Knowing that it's 3D you can pick out some 3D "behaviors" in the animation, but they're subtle.

If 3D CGI is used to replicate the appearance and overall manner of standard animation then what does it matter to us, the viewers?

The only real impact that I can think of that 3D CGI would have on anime, even if the overall appearance were unchanged, would be on the amount of motion that occurs. A lot of anime series are based around fairly static scenes; mouths may move but things overall are pretty static. If you're doing 3D animation then it would be very simple to add in things like gentle swaying or other minor movements. How much that would change the feel of anime series would depend on how it was used. If used to a minor degree then it would just up the realism factor a bit, or allow for more character mannerisms to be presented to the viewer. If over-used (as done in some video games) then the 3D CGI elements would be clear and the character would appear puppet-like, which would be a step down from anime as we know it.
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Old 2013-04-21, 19:17   Link #38
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I like to see 2D as predominant. I don't mind the 3D... Like Berserker in Fate/Zero.
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Old 2013-04-21, 21:52   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
It's been mentioned twice before but I'll echo it with a link to the video. If you haven't already, watch Disney's Paperman short:



If I had not been informed ahead of time that it was made completely with 3D CGI tools and rendered I would not have known that it wasn't hand-drawn and created with traditional animation. Knowing that it's 3D you can pick out some 3D "behaviors" in the animation, but they're subtle.
Honestly, my take is almost the complete opposite. Paperman very clearly comes across to me as a sort of Pixar-style/anime-style hybrid. The 3D CGI aspect of it is very obvious to me. There's stuff in this that just screams "The Incredibles" to me. They're anything but subtle, imo.

That's not to say it's bad, of course. It's a good visual style for some shows (such as... The Incredibles, and Paperman itself). That doesn't mean I'd want to see it become the predominant visual style for anime, though.

I honestly don't get why some people (not speaking to you in particular here) seemingly can't accept the fact that some of us can discern 3D CGI animation from traditional hand-drawn 2D animation, and have an aesthetic preference for the latter. Why can't people just accept that, and move on?

Different people will have different aesthetic tastes, period. Not everybody is going to jump on-board the 3D CGI bandwagon. And it's not like Pixar is hurting for support, and need anybody's help to sell its style to people. Their style is totally predominant for modern animated films in North America. If any animation style is under-appreciated in America today, its classic hand-drawn 2D animation.

And yet, I almost get the impression that some people want classic hand-drawn 2D animation to die. As if some people won't be satisfied until the only animation is 3D CGI style. Why would anybody want that? Why would anybody want less diversity?


Quote:
If 3D CGI is used to replicate the appearance and overall manner of standard animation then what does it matter to us, the viewers?
Because I significantly prefer the visual style of most anime shows to the visual style of Paperman? I don't dislike the Paperman style, but I love most of what KyoAni and P.A. Works puts out (at a purely visual level). I'd absolutely hate to completely lose what KyoAni and P.A. Works currently has to offer.
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Old 2013-04-21, 22:03   Link #40
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
I honestly don't get why some people (not speaking to you in particular here) seemingly can't accept the fact that some of us can discern 3D CGI animation from traditional hand-drawn 2D animation, and have an aesthetic preference for the latter. Why can't people just accept that, and move on?
Just responding in general, but who is pushing for 3D to overtake 2D? I didn't get the impression that this thread was about the superiority of 3D over 2D.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Because I significantly prefer the visual style of most anime shows to the visual style of Paperman? I don't dislike the Paperman style, but I love most of what KyoAni and P.A. Works puts out (at a purely visual level). I'd absolutely hate to lose what KyoAni and P.A. Works currently has to offer.
Paperman showed that it's possible to emulate traditional 2D animation with 3D. They didn't do it perfectly, but I'm not sure that's what they were going for, either. I think they just wanted the character designs and line art to resemble traditional ink-and-pencil animation over 3D. The animation is too fluid and in some scenes the lighting is probably too sophisticated, which can give away the fact that it's 3D. In both cases it's possible to scale things back to even further resemble and emulate 2D.

That's basically what I'm getting at. If 3D were utilized such that it looked and felt exactly like 2D, then what does it matter? That's my response to the opening post. What we care about is the appearance and feel of a series. I don't think that most of us care how the animators get there. However, the "anime style" has not been static over the past few decades, either. Using 3D, even if to emulate current anime styles perfectly, would doubtless result in a shift in the style simply because of what would become possible. Then again, the style is shifting even as we speak, with or without 3D CGI.
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