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Old 2013-10-02, 07:00   Link #801
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Heh. For me, Rui was the ongoing plot. The only time Gatchaman got focus on was... episode 1? Truly focused on, I mean as something unrelated to Galax or about a commentary of the social network. 'Passive' just because he reacts isn't passive, his actions, choices, emotions (negative as they were thanks to Berg Katze) all ended up with Katze taking full control of his life.
It's called passive because he's not the one advancing the plot. He's only reacting to it. The one advancing the plot from his side during that part of the story is Katze. Katze from his side and Hajime from the gatchaman side, though the latter is the one who gets focused the most. From episode 2, when we get our first taste of what sort of character Hajime is, to episode 10, when she declares that if JJ is like a god, he won't help, we're always in Hajime-land. We see things from her point of view, even if we can't always relate to it.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Hajime isn't a real fleshed out character, she's more of a symbol, like Katze is.
Hajime is both a properly fleshed out character and also a symbol. What you call fleshing out a character is a misunderstanding on your part. Hajime doesn't change, she's an static character. But we understand her actions as much as we understand Rui's or anyone else's in the cast. That's what developing a character means: to build the character, to make it so that the audience can understand their point of view, even if they can't always empathize with it. Hajime was pretty unconventional, and that meant the audience couldn't always relate to her, but she was properly developed so that we could understand her. Unlike Hajime, Rui is a dynamic character, as he undergoes a significant change in characterization, character growth. This doesn't mean he's more developed or better fleshed out. He's just a different character type.


On the rest of the post, we're just seeing things from different viewpoints. Does Katze gets defeated by Rui's actions? From the point of view of the most "in your face" part of the social cometary, yes, and that's probably the aspect of the show that Nakamura cared about the most, hence his choices for this episode. Is Katze really defeated? From the point of the view of the plot, not at all. He can always try on other places with other strategies, or even move on to another planet. More importantly, he isn't even defeated from a general thematic stand point, since the concept he represents can never be truly defeated. Hajime's actions at the end are meant to close that hole, but the lack of attention to it isn't necessarily a good choice from Nakamura's part. What Hajime does off-screen when she meets with Katze is by no means less important than what Rui did. In fact it parallels Rui's actions, thematically speaking. That's why I think, at least that moment, needed more attention.
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Last edited by Kazu-kun; 2013-10-02 at 07:26.
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Old 2013-10-02, 08:33   Link #802
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
It's called passive because he's not the one advancing the plot..
He created Galax and X which in turn changed the world and had Hajime and Katze involved into the schemes of things. He was the one who proposed how to defeat the Crowds without harm them and making them visible and got X back.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The one advancing the plot from his side during that part of the story is Katze.
Katze didn't do anything until Rui attacked him. He was content in trying to mind break him psychologically but when he used the Crowds and took the actions he took had nothing to do with Katze. Katze did reap the benefits of his emotional state.

It was Rui in trouble that prompted Sugane to disobey orders for the first time too.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Katze from his side and Hajime from the gatchaman side, though the latter is the one who gets focused the most. From episode 2, when we get our first taste of what sort of character Hajime is, to episode 10, when she declares that if JJ is like a god, he won't help, we're always in Hajime-land. We see things from her point of view, even if we can't always relate to it.
She did little except well, encourage people and make them communicate with each others (which isn't little by any means, but it was indirect action). Being a positive inspiration like Katze is a negative one. That's her role, to encourage others and bring out the best of them like Katze is the opposite, you know? But they need real people to act with them. That's why they don't do stuff directly themselves. The only time I remember Hajime being proactive herself and not just as a communication proxy (even with MESS this is what she was) was during the milk Galax incident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Hajime is both a properly fleshed out character and also a symbol. What you call fleshing out a character is a misunderstanding on your part. Hajime doesn't change, she's an static character. But we understand her actions as much as we understand Rui's or anyone else's in the cast.
I don't see how she's relatable to be "understandable" (or Katze for this matter). She's a character who does things for mysterious motivations without actually learning why. She never makes a mistake, she never suffers, she never falters, she's never wrong. She's just there as a concept, she's not human in the least. She's standing above humanity like Katze's standing beneath humanity.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
That's what developing a character means: to build the character, to make it so that the audience can understand their point of view, even if they can't always empathize with it.
I'm not sure if I agree with you here.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
This doesn't mean he's more developed or better fleshed out. He's just a different character type.
Well, yes he is. Because his reasoning is explained like the logic of his actions. He has a character arc as opposed to Hajime or Katze. Even the Prime Minister had more character development than those two there and I'm not saying that's bad, it's extremely effective and contrasting.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Is Katze really defeated? From the point of the view of the plot, not at all. He can always try on other places with other strategies, or even move on to another planet. More importantly, he isn't even defeated from a general thematic stand point, since the concept he represents can never be truly defeated.
He is. He's powerless and completely impotent to do anything else in the ending. You've been proved onscreen there's nothing he could do there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Hajime's actions at the end are meant to close that hole, but the lack of attention to it isn't necessarily a good choice from Nakamura's part. What Hajime does off-screen when she meets with Katze is by no means less important than what Rui did. In fact it parallels Rui's actions, thematically speaking. That's why I think, at least that moment, needed more attention.
Which Nakamura deemed unimportant to show. Katze was already defeated, what Hajime does to him to imprison him (or merge with him) is never show because it's meaningless padding. We just note they are sharing one body in the end in the way people have good and bad sides. The way to defeat Katze was to prove him wrong. That's only something Rui and the Crowds could do with their actions. Not Hajime as we know Katze laughed and mocked Hajime earlier. Hajime actions did something, the balance Katze's influence: it was through Rui (just like how breaking Rui was how Katze got to grasp so much power in the first place). Good triumphed over Evil but like O.D. and Hajime knew in the series, it was up to Rui (and his Galax Network).

There's no parallel with Rui thematically, I think that the show is over when Katze is beaten by people's happiness in something that isn't their enjoyment of misery and destruction, giving Rui the ideological victory. His fate is an epilogue, not something truly relevant to the show main theme. Now I agree that it would have been nice to be more detailed on something beyond the show main theme, I'd like to know O.D.'s fate and Utsutsu's reaction, for instance, but the heart of the story was done. What's left is add the secondary subplots and minor details. At least IMO.
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Last edited by Thess; 2013-10-02 at 08:48.
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Old 2013-10-02, 08:40   Link #803
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Hajime doesn't have the mindset of a normal human and thus, that the reason why she is so proficient when it comes to thinking outside of the box
But this mindset also makes her emotional reactions to things really weird and hard to relate to
For instance, when Jou was heavily wounded and leaking blood, she was way too calm about it.
I mean, you can justify her actions from a certain logical perpective, but from an emotional persepective she's just.. alien

So yes, I'm going to say that Hajime is more of a mysterious force than an actual character.
But it also happens that the show does not need her to be anything else.
The theme of the show is that everyone have their own strengths, and that group cooperation is needed.
Heroes are optional. Thus, Hajime's importance in this whole matter is also optional.
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Old 2013-10-02, 08:51   Link #804
Thess
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Heroes aren't optional! But the point is that human kind had to be turned into heroes. Not the "minority with power." Traditional heroes and leaders did a good job, but failed to solve the problem. So it was the crowds' turn. That's what the modern world strives towards, that's how it's updated slowly.

Agreed on Hajime though. I loved her, however. I can get behind that unstoppable force of good nature as much as I can get behind Katze's negative aspect.
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Old 2013-10-02, 09:07   Link #805
Kazu-kun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
He created Galax and X which in turn changed the world and had Hajime and Katze involved into the schemes of things. He was the one who proposed how to defeat the Crowds without harm them and making them visible and got X back.
So? I don't remember arguing about this.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Katze didn't do anything until Rui attacked him. He was content in trying to mind break him psychologically
There's a contradiction there.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
It was Rui in trouble that prompted Sugane to disobey orders for the first time too.
Which goes along my point of Rui being in a passive position during that part of the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thess View Post
She did little except well, encourage people and make them communicate with each others. Being a positive inspiration like Katze is a negative one. That's her role, to encourage others and bring out the best of them like Katze is the opposite, you know? But they need real people to act with them. That's why they don't do stuff directly themselves. The only time I remember Hajime being proactive herself and not just as a communication proxy (even with MESS this is what she was) was during the milk Galax incident.
You're misunderstanding both what it means to be proactive and also the meaning of the term proxy.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I don't see how she's relatable to be "understandable" (or Katze for this matter). She's a character who does things for mysterious motivations without actually learning why.
I didn't say she was relatable. I did say that we can understand her point of view and her actions, and I stand by my word. She might be unconventional, but her actions have their logic. You just have to pay attention to see where she's coming from.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
I'm not sure if you can empathize with someone who never struggles for anything or feels anything that isn't permanent cheer. You can admire her, but empathize? What for?
I did say she was hard to empathize with. Also, the fact that you can't easily relate to her doesn't mean she's not a proper character.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Well, yes he is. Because his reasoning is explained like the logic of his actions. He has a character arc as opposed to Hajime or Katze. Even the Prime Minister had more character development than those two there and I'm not saying that's bad, it's effective.
You keep confusing character development with character growth. They're not the same thing. Hajime doesn't grow, but she's well developed.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
He is. He's powerless and completely impotent to do anything else in the ending. You've been proved onscreen there's nothing he could do there.
Thematically speaking, yeah, but there's more to the show than that (there's the plot, for instance), and even if we only look at the issue from a thematic stand point, Katze ultimately represents something that can't be truly defeated. At the end, he just loses a battle, not the war.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Which Nakamura deemed unimportant to show.
It doesn't mean it's the right choice.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Katze was already defeated, what Hajime does to him to imprison him (or merge with him) is never show because it's meaningless padding.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
The way to defeat Katze was to prove him wrong.
He's not really proven wrong. It's not that people are suddenly more willing to do good and help out than they were before. Rui giving Crowds to everyone only levels the playing field. It's the fact that he's using gamification strategies to manipulate the attention of people to make them take positive actions what saves the day. That doesn't prove Katze's viewpoint wrong, it just fixes the situation at hand.

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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
There's no parallel with Rui thematically
That's a good one. I wonder if you even understand why I said there's a parallelism there. I think you don't.
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Old 2013-10-02, 10:21   Link #806
Thess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
There's a contradiction there.
There isn't. Katze wanted Rui to abuse the Crowds to "upgrade the world" by force. He reclaims him why he's not doing that when they met in the beginning of episode 7. He was never successful to make him do whatever he wanted him to do. Rui turning completely against him was a turning point of the plot. That was entirely Rui's choice.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Which goes along my point of Rui being in a passive position during that part of the show.
He's not really passive when the platform he created (Galax) is the main field they are fighting for. He's not really passive when his ideas were the ones that solved the issue against the Crowds and take Galax back. It's building him up to be the one who will solve this mess. Oh and he did. Hajime and O.D., two of the wisest characters, acknowledged that Rui was the one to decide.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I didn't say she was relatable. I did say that we can understand her point of view and her actions, and I stand by my word. She might be unconventional, but her actions have their logic. You just have to pay attention to see where she's coming from.
We have to disagree here. She's as erratic as Katze, only in a good way.

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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I did say she was hard to empathize with. Also, the fact that you can't easily relate to her doesn't mean she's not a proper character.
Perhaps. But she's not a human character, therefore her place in solving the plot which is all about humanity evolution and their society isn't highlight aside of (like Katze) catalyst. Because it's humans and people who take choices to make and break the world. Hajime and Katze can influence them as forces of good and evil, but remain alien to them.

Who was the epitome of humanity who got to decide? It's Rui.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
Thematically speaking, yeah, but there's more to the show than that (there's the plot, for instance), and even if we only look at the issue from a thematic stand point, Katze ultimately represents something that can't be truly defeated. At the end, he just loses a battle, not the war.
And people understand that (Rui understood that), because they accepted that evil will always be there like flaws. That's why Hajime merges with him, the process isn't important, just the result, the understanding of this and the nod afterward. If you have time to pad this, sure, show it, but it's redundant when you don't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
He's not really proven wrong. It's not that people are suddenly more willing to do good and help out than they were before. Rui giving Crowds to everyone only levels the playing field. It's the fact that he's using gamification strategies to manipulate the attention of people to make them take positive actions what saves the day. That doesn't prove Katze's viewpoint wrong, it just fixes the situation at hand.
It proves him wrong. Katze didn't believe people could have fun in other people's happiness, regardless of what they do. He has a conversation of this with Hajime, saying who would even listen to others go on how happy they are. Did you forget HE had to gamificate stuff to get the lazy Neo Hundred to move their asses too? He had to cherrypick them too or give Crowds to scared and angry people rather than open them to all as Rui did, he's cherrypicking is a way to show he was wrong. He was proved wrong because he never had the guts to stick with his guns and give the Crowds to everyone if human kind was just as bad as he claimed it was, why didn't he? You're missing the point, Rui wanted to have this same control over "quality" to choose his Crowds too but he grew up to believe he didn't need to, he embraced humanity in all his flaws and chose to believe in them and his ideal.

He was right. The ending with the Prime Minister saying they are valuable because they are open to everyone and how the system had become more horizontal, regardless of the minor setbacks (crime) is what gives him the victory. You see Rui enjoying him and having fun while Katze completely ignored and disgusted.

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That's a good one. I wonder if you even understand why I said there's a parallelism there. I think you don't.
Please explain what you mean with that.
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Old 2013-10-04, 09:01   Link #807
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That was good. Although, the ending seemed a bit idealistic in regards to politics. Considering in real life, that kind of solution would impossible to pull off.
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Old 2013-10-16, 06:28   Link #808
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Any word on that announcement?
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Old 2013-10-19, 07:57   Link #809
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Any word on that announcement?
YES!

【イベント情報】さて、いままで大人の事情で秘匿してまいりましたが、今回のオールナイトイベントでは、D VDボックスに収録されますスペシャル映像を特別に先行上映(予定)でございますよ。その内容に関しまして は、みなさま当日まで想像を膨らませてくださいませね。
https://twitter.com/GATCHAMANCrowds/

Looks like there will be additional footage to be released with the box set, with a special preview screening on the 26th.
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:03   Link #810
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Code:
http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20131026-00000001-mantan-ent
I don't know how and why this is happening but are you ready for more? *link stolen from /a/*
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:17   Link #811
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Cool

http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ets-2nd-season

Gatchaman Crowds second season officially announced.

All I can say is there is God...
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:38   Link #812
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http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news...ets-2nd-season

Gatchaman Crowds second season officially announced.

All I can say is there is God...
Oh ho?

Great news! ^^
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:43   Link #813
Obelisk ze Tormentor
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Oh yes! More Hajime & Katze!
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:47   Link #814
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Well it will at least clarify that ending...
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Old 2013-10-26, 02:54   Link #815
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Well it will at least clarify that ending...
Admit it! You are dancing wildly on the roof of your apartment/home in a toga right now, aren't you?

No? Oh. Well... anyway (cough cough).

I thought the series should have gotten more love, so hopefully if S2 was as enjoyable as S1 (or better!) it will get more good attention. At least imo. ^^
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Old 2013-10-26, 03:13   Link #816
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Old 2013-10-26, 06:10   Link #817
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Excellent news!
So long as Miyano Mamoru gets plenty more occasions to really chew the scenery, I'll be happy.

(After all, villains are never totally vanquished, so I'm certain Berg Katze will be back for more!)
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Old 2013-10-26, 06:12   Link #818
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Admit it! You are dancing wildly on the roof of your apartment/home in a toga right now, aren't you?

No? Oh. Well... anyway (cough cough).

I thought the series should have gotten more love, so hopefully if S2 was as enjoyable as S1 (or better!) it will get more good attention. At least imo. ^^
No I'm actually dressed as a motor vehicle accident patient for a Halloween party later.
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Old 2013-10-26, 10:17   Link #819
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I never expected this of all shows to get a second season. I would have rather had Tsuritama 2, but I'll take what I can get.
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Old 2013-10-26, 14:36   Link #820
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I loved Tsuritama but I actually think it had a perfect ending. There many other series that I rather have a sequel for. As far Nakamura I'd love more Mononoke.

Now I wasn't a fan of Gatchaman Crowds personally, I didn't even get to the end, but I am happy for its fans.
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