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Old 2013-05-04, 19:30   Link #61
relentlessflame
 
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I think most childhood friends simply don't deserve to win [...]
Honestly, I think the vast majority of the childhood friend contexts I can think of don't go down the "obsessive/possessive/yandere" direction you're lamenting. Instead, it's hidden feelings with a chronic inability to admit it/take the next step either because a) they never really gave it serious thought (which usually changes when a potential rival enters the picture and they start feeling jealous), or b) they don't want to risk taking the next step and ruining their long-time friendship. This actually brings its own set of arguably-annoying clichés, but not so much the passive-aggression, the guilt trips, or the yandere. Of course, I can certainly think of some rather famous examples of the latter... but I think they're actually more the exceptions than the norm.

(If you want a prototype for what I'd call the "rule"... maybe Akari from ToHeart, or Konomi from ToHeart 2?)
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Old 2013-05-04, 19:50   Link #62
Dwalin
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Childhood friends tend to act as if they are already entitled to the lead character's romantic devotions simply by being a childhood friend. It's as if a childhood friendship means an engagement or something.
I have never seen a childhood friend act that way.
But when they do, I think it's understandable that they don't want the person who was been part of their lives for so long to be taken away by a complete stranger. If the main character doesn't agree, it's one thing, but if he can't make up his mind, I think there is nothing wrong for the childhood friend to refuse to step aside.

Last edited by Dwalin; 2013-05-04 at 20:10.
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Old 2013-05-04, 20:16   Link #63
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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Honestly, I think the vast majority of the childhood friend contexts I can think of don't go down the "obsessive/possessive/yandere" direction you're lamenting. Instead, it's hidden feelings with a chronic inability to admit it/take the next step either because a) they never really gave it serious thought (which usually changes when a potential rival enters the picture and they start feeling jealous), or b) they don't want to risk taking the next step and ruining their long-time friendship. This actually brings its own set of arguably-annoying clichés, but not so much the passive-aggression, the guilt trips, or the yandere. Of course, I can certainly think of some rather famous examples of the latter... but I think they're actually more the exceptions than the norm.

(If you want a prototype for what I'd call the "rule"... maybe Akari from ToHeart, or Konomi from ToHeart 2?)

I guess it's a problem that's not very noticeable in your typical anime or manga
but from my personal observation I see it too often in eroge
no real knowledge about Light Novels.

Also notice that I have been using gender neutral pronouns so far. The problem I see goes both ways.


//

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Originally Posted by Dwalin View Post
I have never seen a childhood friend act that way.
But when they do, I think it's understandable that they don't want the person who was been part of their lives for so long to be taken away by a complete stranger. If the main character doesn't agree, it's one thing, but if he can't make up his mind, I think there is nothing wrong for the childhood friend to refuse to step aside.
This is why you don't put all eggs in one basket. This is why you have a social life outside of your childhood friend.
A childhood friend is not a fiancee. Not a spouse. And if you consider that childhood friend of your to be family, then well, you can't eat your cake and have it at the same time.

Also, as I've said, how much of the main character not being able to make up his mind is because of Stockholm syndrome or guilt trip?
I always ask myself that when I see this in stories.

//
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Old 2013-05-04, 20:28   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
This is why you don't put all eggs in one basket. This is why you have a social life outside of your childhood friend.
A childhood friend is not a fiancee. Not a spouse. And if you consider that childhood friend of your to be family, then well, you can't eat your cake and have it at the same time.

Also, as I've said, how much of the main character not being able to make up his mind is because of Stockholm syndrome or guilt trip?
I always ask myself that when I see this in stories.
Well, I don't know, I guess it's a matter of personal tastes then. I can speak only for myself, but If I had a very close childhood friend, it would be the most likely person for me to fall in love with, I simply can't imagine myself to be attracted to somebody whom I met as adult, who maybe had other relationships before meeting me. I am an idealist who is attracted only by the kind of love that lasts since childhood till old age. If this is rare in real life, then I am fine with just reading fiction.
Crazy it may seem, this is one of the very few cases in which I don't really care whether I am considered crazy.
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Old 2013-05-04, 20:32   Link #65
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Originally Posted by Dwalin View Post
Well, I don't know, I guess it's a matter of personal tastes then. I can speak only for myself, but If I had a very close childhood friend, it would be the most likely person for me to fall in love with, I simply can't imagine myself to be attracted to somebody whom I met as adult, who maybe had other relationships before meeting me. I am an idealist who is attracted only by the kind of love that lasts since childhood till old age. If this is rare in real life, then I am fine with just reading fiction.
Crazy it may seem, this is one of the very few cases in which I don't really care whether I am considered crazy.
The person you are now, is different from the person you were 10 years ago.
And 10 years into the future you will also be a different person.
The same goes for you childhood friend.

That's some food for thought.
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Old 2013-05-04, 20:37   Link #66
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The person you are now, is different from the person you were 10 years ago.
And 10 years into the future you will also be a different person.
The same goes for you childhood friend.

That's some food for thought.
Not everything changes though. Some things I liked when I was a baby, I still like now. As for childhood friend stories, I really don't see how can I start thinking differently about them since I consider childhood the most innocent and happy period of life. This can be changed only if somebody brainwashes me completely in a violent way without my consent. And this wouldn't be a good thing as there aren't many things that keep me from becoming a complete cynic.
As for childhood friends changing, I am not talking about cases in which they are separated and then reunited, but when they grow up together. In this case changes are not so much noticeable as they happen slowly and gradually.
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Old 2013-05-04, 20:53   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I guess it's a problem that's not very noticeable in your typical anime or manga
but from my personal observation I see it too often in eroge
no real knowledge about Light Novels.
I was thinking mostly of eroge when making the comment, but also anime/manga/light novels. Maybe we're just reading/watching different stuff? The possessive types are a lot less common in what I've seen than the more clueless types.
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Old 2013-05-04, 21:07   Link #68
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Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
There is a difference between character's in a romantic relationship not doing much and having stories focused on friendship.

In this case I agree with Archon Wing. I would really love more stories focused on friendship in general, and I don't just mean cute girls doing cute things type of friendship examples.

There is actually very few examples of boy/girl friendships who just stay friends (and I am not counting the ones when you are friends with someone because you are in a romance with someone else).

Off the top of my head I can think of

Taki and Natsume in Natsume Yuujinchou (at first I wanted them to get together but now I am glad that they are not)

Kei in Higurashi and all the girls (although I don't think this one was really all that well written)

It was an overlooked series but Uta Koi had a great male/female friendship between Narihira, Yasuhide and Komachi. This was also significant to me because it was an adult friendship between opposite sexes.
You've got Goku and Bulma. Of course, while I love Dragonball, it's obviously not a shining piece of writing, but it is a pretty famous example.
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Old 2013-05-04, 21:13   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Dwalin View Post
Not everything changes though. Some things I liked when I was a baby, I still like now. As for childhood friend stories, I really don't see how can I start thinking differently about them since I consider childhood the most innocent and happy period of life. This can be changed only if somebody brainwashes me completely in a violent way without my consent. And this wouldn't be a good thing as there aren't many things that keep me from becoming a complete cynic.
As for childhood friends changing, I am not talking about cases in which they are separated and then reunited, but when they grow up together. In this case changes are not so much noticeable as they happen slowly and gradually.
ok... I suppose that clarifies things

then let me re-elaborate

if you loved a certain someone since a certain period, and despite changes and all, continue to love that person until now, while still being a friend

it's unlikely for your love to be reciprocated if you suddenly decide to graduate from just being a friend one day. Because some call that being a stalker. The euphemism for that is secret admirer, but really, it's the same thing.

True, you held your love and modified it according to changes the other person went though.

But can the same be said for the other person?

The assumption that the other person holds the same sentiments for you all this time must be avoided.
The assumption that hey, because I accumulated so much friendship points with that other person, It must be easier for us to fall in love must be avoided.

Romantic love is not a higher tier form of friendship
Romantic love is a different tree altogether.

if you are a childhood friend in this kind of story, and the lead character pays a considerable romantic attention to mysterious transfer student x/person that fell from the sky/foreigner from another dimension/ect

You only have yourself to blame. You may have over 9000 friendship points. But you will not get romantic attention because your romantic love points are low. And it is low because you did not attempt to gain any, only comfortable with being a friend. You have no more right to this person's heart than that new "interloper"

//

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Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
I was thinking mostly of eroge when making the comment, but also anime/manga/light novels. Maybe we're just reading/watching different stuff? The possessive types are a lot less common in what I've seen than the more clueless types.
I'm pretty sure each person watches/plays/reads different things

but from my experience

clueless type become possessive type that simply can't afford to lose the main character's attention, because they have built a lot of their life around the lead character

and I dislike that. They only have themselves to blame for the reason I stated above this post
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Last edited by relentlessflame; 2013-05-04 at 21:20. Reason: merge double-post
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Old 2013-05-04, 23:35   Link #70
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Oh, for the people who really love this type of romance, I must ask:

Will you ship childhood friends no matter what?

Like even if they don't make a good match...they're like brother/sister, or it's really one-sided or something?

If so.....I don't feel that's right. I think shipping should be about who the character is and their interaction with the protagonist, not how they are connected to/know the protagonist. :/

Quote:
if you are a childhood friend in this kind of story, and the lead character pays a considerable romantic attention to mysterious transfer student x/person that fell from the sky/foreigner from another dimension/ect

You only have yourself to blame. You may have over 9000 friendship points. But you will not get romantic attention because your romantic love points are low. And it is low because you did not attempt to gain any, only comfortable with being a friend. You have no more right to this person's heart than that new "interloper"
Damn, you said it!
I totally agree. Just because you've known the person longer doesn't mean you can call 'dibs' on their heart....and it really annoys me when people try to use that excuse for claiming the childhood ship is "superior".

Fan: Oh, Boy #2 should get the girl because he has loved her his entire life!
Me: ........who the f*ck cares!? She doesn't feel the same way!
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Old 2013-05-05, 02:57   Link #71
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I don't mind if childhood friends become lovers, but I hate if Childhood friendship is decessive factor that lead to it.

Like when there is love triangle. Girls "fight" for protagonist favor and than after XX episodes come conclusion: "Sorry, but we were Always together"

Why I need watch it so long, when it was decided even before it started?!

But if they got together simply cause they have good chemistry and/or good relationship in present I am cool with it.
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Old 2013-05-05, 03:15   Link #72
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If so.....I don't feel that's right. I think shipping should be about who the character is and their interaction with the protagonist, not how they are connected to/know the protagonist. :/
Do shippers really need a justifiable reason to ship their favourite pairing?

I think the reason why some people like childhood friend pairings is because they enjoy the way these stories typically play out, and they find something about the concept somehow romantic and appealing to them. I think it's no different from people who tend to "ship" forbidden-love pairings, or tsundere heroine pairings, or whatever else. Usually it's a preference that gets reinforced by certain signs or supporting characteristics in the show itself that make them think they want to see how it'll turn out (and think that it'll be better than the other options).

But anyway, I've certainly known people who are generally strongly in favour of one particular archetype sometimes favouring another pairing if it hits just the right chords. I think that, generally-speaking, it's a preference but not a firm rule.
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Old 2013-05-05, 03:52   Link #73
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I think it's a trivial, unimportant discussion tbh.

Character chemistry is far more important than some story backdrops.
I don't really care if it's a romance between childhood friends or sworn enemies, if there's a lack of character chemistry depicted between the two it's going to suck no matter what.

It's sorta like how direction and presentation is far more important than plot, yet self-claimed internet "writers" (lol) argue about plot more often in regards to quality of a show. An idea in writing is worth nothing if it's not presented attractively.
Cliche is boring because it's done boring, not because of its inherent nature as a cliche.
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Old 2013-05-05, 04:16   Link #74
hyl
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
I'm pretty sure each person watches/plays/reads different things

but from my experience

clueless type become possessive type that simply can't afford to lose the main character's attention, because they have built a lot of their life around the lead character

and I dislike that. They only have themselves to blame for the reason I stated above this post
So.. what animes did you watch to get that "experience"?
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Old 2013-05-05, 05:59   Link #75
Dwalin
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Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Oh, for the people who really love this type of romance, I must ask:

Will you ship childhood friends no matter what?

Like even if they don't make a good match...they're like brother/sister, or it's really one-sided or something?
If they are like brother and sister, then no. Also, sometimes childhood friend love gets in the way of other good things, like in "Brother bear" that I already mentioned or in "Touch" where it causes a rivalry between twins.
But if there is a love triangle or harem I almost always root for the childhood friend (except maybe in cases where she is a loli).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
O
Damn, you said it!
I totally agree. Just because you've known the person longer doesn't mean you can call 'dibs' on their heart....and it really annoys me when people try to use that excuse for claiming the childhood ship is "superior".

Fan: Oh, Boy #2 should get the girl because he has loved her his entire life!
Me: ........who the f*ck cares!? She doesn't feel the same way!
Well, I disagree. I am not trying to impose my point of view or something, but I disagree. It annoys me very much when a transfer student/foreigner/alien just comes and thinks she can take the main character like that, because she wants to.

Last edited by Dwalin; 2013-05-05 at 06:34.
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Old 2013-05-06, 21:39   Link #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame View Post
Do shippers really need a justifiable reason to ship their favourite pairing?
Yes, dammit.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwalin
It annoys me very much when a transfer student/foreigner/alien just comes and thinks she can take the main character like that, because she wants to.
"Thinks she can take because she wants to"!?
That is hardly her mindset.
Hell, a lot of times she doesn't even KNOW another girl likes him! She naturally falls in love and tries to capture his heart. Why shouldn't she? It's fair enough. She isn't thinking "I'm gonna steal him from this bitch", she is thinking "I love him and I'm gonna do my best to show that".
She has just as much right to it as the childhood friend, as long as the main character's heart is free for the taking.

It might annoy you because you always like the childhood friend better, but you can't sit there and tell me the new character is "unfair" to the childhood friend just because she's "newer". If the main character sees this new girl as "love interest" and childhood friend as "sister", is that really "new girl"'s fault?
If you're gonna blame somebody, blame the guy for being dense to osanajimi-chan's feels.

Oh, Dwalin, I have a question for you!!
Have you seen Itsuka Tenma No Kuro Usagi?
BOTH love interests are childhood friends!!
Spoiler for Osanajimi Love Triangle:

NOW, CHOOSE. WHO DO YOU ROOT FOR!?

Spoiler for Chiibi's ship choice:
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Old 2013-05-06, 23:47   Link #77
Dwalin
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Yes, dammit.



"Thinks she can take because she wants to"!?
That is hardly her mindset.
Hell, a lot of times she doesn't even KNOW another girl likes him! She naturally falls in love and tries to capture his heart. Why shouldn't she? It's fair enough. She isn't thinking "I'm gonna steal him from this bitch", she is thinking "I love him and I'm gonna do my best to show that".
She has just as much right to it as the childhood friend, as long as the main character's heart is free for the taking.

It might annoy you because you always like the childhood friend better, but you can't sit there and tell me the new character is "unfair" to the childhood friend just because she's "newer". If the main character sees this new girl as "love interest" and childhood friend as "sister", is that really "new girl"'s fault?
If you're gonna blame somebody, blame the guy for being dense to osanajimi-chan's feels.
Yes, but if the childhood friend tries to capture his heart in the same way you are talking about the newcomer, she is often insulted by fans just for these attempts, no matter how altruistic she is to others, even in cases she lets it go at the end, for respect of the rival (I personally don't think I would be able to be so strong to force myself to back down to please somebody else unless I was 100% sure the childhood friend didn't want me).
If a fan uses your logic impartially towards all characters, it's all right for me. But some people just dismiss the whole "childhood love" genre as inferior. I once talked to a writer of some books that featured a childhood friend love story and she said she was sad many people told her it wasn't possible in real life and that it was difficult for her to help me finding other books with similar stories because they are often simply not published (even she had to auto-publish her trilogy). I once found a very good fictional love story about 2 children falling in love (no love triangles; there were obstacles to overcome in the plot of course, but the relationship was never put into doubt), but it wasn't published, we had to specifically ask for the author's permission and promise to not show it around until it's published.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Oh, Dwalin, I have a question for you!!
Have you seen Itsuka Tenma No Kuro Usagi?
BOTH love interests are childhood friends!!
Spoiler for Osanajimi Love Triangle:

NOW, CHOOSE. WHO DO YOU ROOT FOR!?

Spoiler for Chiibi's ship choice:
I haven't seen it, so I don't know who would I root for. But the question is difficult indeed for me. I usually don't like love triangles that much. I often feel sorry for the one who loses even if she isn't a childhood friend. For me it's often enough to see the character cry. I felt sorry for Tina in "Ai Yori Aoshi" for example, and the relationship between childhood friends Aoi and Kaoru ddn't impress me that much, as Aoi always referred to him with his honorific samurai title and he didn't mind (and was also quite dense), it seems to me more like a relationship between a benevolent master and a servant rather than lovers.
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Old 2013-05-07, 03:01   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chiibi View Post
Oh, for the people who really love this type of romance, I must ask:

Will you ship childhood friends no matter what?

Like even if they don't make a good match...they're like brother/sister, or it's really one-sided or something?

If so.....I don't feel that's right. I think shipping should be about who the character is and their interaction with the protagonist, not how they are connected to/know the protagonist. :/
Well, incest has never stopped anyone in anime ever...
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Old 2013-05-07, 09:12   Link #79
Akito Kinomoto
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I like childhood friend romances in theory. There's something fairy tale-esque about overcoming the Westermarck Effect and finding out the love of your life was your closest friend all along. It has longevity over ye olde high school sweethearts and an advantage of familiarity. But this is before the writing happens.
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Well, incest has never stopped anyone in anime ever...
But they weren't blood related so it's all guuuuuuuuud~
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Old 2013-05-07, 09:58   Link #80
Chiibi
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Well, incest has never stopped anyone in anime ever...
It has stopped QUITE a few people, including me.

But yeah, if they're not really related, that's different.
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