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Old 2013-09-12, 17:56   Link #181
GreyZone
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I guess it will not be possible for me to end Season 1 of the anime before people tell me the whole story of the manga directly without spoiler tags. I just want to remind that this is NOT a manga thread...


Actually Eren and Mikasa being a gender flipped "damsel in distress" situation seems to be true to a certain extent and in the other case people are at worst complaining about the trope being too overused. Why is no one complaining about Mario being so obsessed with Peach all the time? I can so see a situation in Attack on Titan where someone tells Mikasa "Thanks for saving us. Eren is in another castle."
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Old 2013-09-12, 18:31   Link #182
Anatoelle
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Originally Posted by darklegends8 View Post
I think the point was more that what's normal for us isn't normal for them. Imo it'd be worse for her if something happened to Eren while she was trying to find her self worth, there'll be plenty of time for that after the manga ends and Eren and Mikasa are together 8D
Spoiler for chapter 48:
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Old 2013-09-12, 21:19   Link #183
Veviticus
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I can so see a situation in Attack on Titan where someone tells Mikasa "Thanks for saving us. Eren is in another titan."
I fixed that for you And it works too, since some people are still alive in a titan's stomach.
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Old 2013-09-13, 00:24   Link #184
lateraldeath
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Why is no one complaining about Mario being so obsessed with Peach all the time? I can so see a situation in Attack on Titan where someone tells Mikasa "Thanks for saving us. Eren is in another castle."
lol, this is actually true.
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Old 2013-09-13, 01:31   Link #185
darklegends8
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
Spoiler for chapter 48:
Ok that's a good clarification.

As for the gender reversal thing, perhaps you would, but for the countless male doing anything to save the female stories out there, there's a lot less calls for him to find his self worth than there are for her. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 2013-09-13, 02:13   Link #186
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
Spoiler for chapter 48:
Spoiler for 49:
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Old 2013-09-13, 02:58   Link #187
lateraldeath
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
Spoiler for chapter 48:
Even if you are talking about dysfunctional defense mechanism and not relating it to our world, again I still don't see the difference between her, and anyone else in the story.

Case point below:

Spoiler for chapter 49:


Please explain to me how the above image is different in terms of dysfunctional defense mechanism compared to Mikasa's.

As for protecting Eren to the point of losing herself. That's probably true and I'd agree that's not healthy. However, it still a pointless thought if she's dead. That's something she can think about after the war's over. Frankly protecting Eren to the point of losing one self is something many recon corp members has already done. I get you are speaking of emotional development but she right when she says there is no time to spare on other crap . Shit's been happening one after another for them since they got back from the expedition. I'm not denying your point, if their world is peaceful then personally I believe she will start finding other meanings to life besides Eren.
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Old 2013-09-13, 03:31   Link #188
Parchevich
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
Spoiler for chapter 48:
Her coping mechanism isn't dysfunctional. Her priority is Eren, and she hasn't destroyed Eren or herself yet, not even close to, so it's not destructive in any meaningful way for her. She prioritises her family over her enemies, casual acquaintances and colleagues - that's normal. She's uncompromising and assertive in defending the things that matter to her - also perfectly normal, and actually preferable to being passive.

I think I brought up the "their world isn't our world" first and I mostly did it to ward off cries of "omg if my friend mothered me so much I'd ditch the weirdo, that's stalking!"and the like. I'm well aware the world isn't a safe place, and that there are plenty of people out there willing to throw their lives away for their loved ones, so your insistence that this is a problem where Mikasa is concerned is even more bizarre.

"Relationship with herself"? Do you mean her "self-esteem" or "self-worth"? Because I think she has a reasonably accurate view of herself, she knows how strong and capable she is (her speech after Eren's "death" is one example, her assertion that she'll protect Eren - that she has the strength to protect him - is another). She knows how badass she is, she just chooses to use her badassery to save her family, and that's more than fine.

You keep arguing from the position that Mikasa being willing to go to such lengths to keep Eren safe is a character flaw. It isn't.

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As for protecting Eren to the point of losing herself. That's probably true and I'd agree that's not healthy.
Me too. But she's in the middle of a war and everyone is out to get the person most important to her. She has no time to take up macrame or gardening or join a dancing class to expand her social circle. If I had to defend my little sister from a bunch of former friends/enemies trying to kill/abduct her all the time, I doubt I'd stop and think "Gee, I'm losing myself here. Better stop caring for the brat so much and get a hobby, I'm acting dysfunctional". And that's considering I've got other family besides my sister and haven't the emotional trauma and baggage Mikasa has.

Last edited by Parchevich; 2013-09-13 at 03:48.
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Old 2013-09-13, 12:11   Link #189
lateraldeath
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Me too. But she's in the middle of a war and everyone is out to get the person most important to her. She has no time to take up macrame or gardening or join a dancing class to expand her social circle. If I had to defend my little sister from a bunch of former friends/enemies trying to kill/abduct her all the time, I doubt I'd stop and think "Gee, I'm losing myself here. Better stop caring for the brat so much and get a hobby, I'm acting dysfunctional". And that's considering I've got other family besides my sister and haven't the emotional trauma and baggage Mikasa has.
er, you do know I pretty much said the same thing you just said right after the quote right?
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Old 2013-09-13, 13:04   Link #190
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er, you do know I pretty much said the same thing you just said right after the quote right?
Lol I think we're recycling responses to new people who come in and say Mikasa's attachment is unhealthy or bad, I also said that Mikasa would find more meaning when there's peace earlier in this thread.
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Old 2013-09-13, 13:12   Link #191
lateraldeath
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Lol I think we're recycling responses to new people who come in and say Mikasa's attachment is unhealthy or bad, I also said that Mikasa would find more meaning when there's peace earlier in this thread.
Ya I saw your post, thus I didn't quote you and responded directly to Anatoelle. But Parch quoting me makes me wonder if he just read the part he quoted and start answering, because that would have taken what I said out of context completely.
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Old 2013-09-14, 00:39   Link #192
Anatoelle
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Her coping mechanism isn't dysfunctional. Her priority is Eren, and she hasn't destroyed Eren or herself yet, not even close to, so it's not destructive in any meaningful way for her. She prioritises her family over her enemies, casual acquaintances and colleagues - that's normal. She's uncompromising and assertive in defending the things that matter to her - also perfectly normal, and actually preferable to being passive.
It is dysfunctional in a sense that is it still failing to serve as an adjusting purpose to fully understand Eren and by extension, herself. (ETA: Perhaps this will clear it up more. When I meant "coping mechanism", it doesn't primarily govern that of what's happening around her (The Titan Invasion, Eren's capture) but what is happening within her (of the reason why she said she's heartless among other things). In the chapter titled "Compassion", she "asked" Eren what is more important than his life that he's hesitating to kill Annie and the answer is simply compassion. It is also because of that compassion that Eren saved her 6 years ago. That is why I'm calling it dysfunctional because although she knows her priority, by accepting she has no heart and compassion anymore, she is making a rift between the meaning/motivation behind why Eren saved her and by extent, making a rift between who she is and how she view herself. I agree that at this point, she is not self destructive but on the verge (not because she's willing to die for someone, but because of her acceptance that she has no heart and no compassion to give (even to those people she was with). I also prefer Mikasa being active than doing nothing, but it is painful to see that in doing so, she's missing the meaning of why Eren saved her (and it is because she deserves to live, that she has a beating heart, and that is it through compassion that Eren saved her). Through compassion she was saved, and compassion there is because of heart. Through this compassion Eren saved Mikasa and in doing so sharing her his heart. It is dysfunctional, because it breaks the heart.


Quote:
I think I brought up the "their world isn't our world" first and I mostly did it to ward off cries of "omg if my friend mothered me so much I'd ditch the weirdo, that's stalking!"and the like. I'm well aware the world isn't a safe place, and that there are plenty of people out there willing to throw their lives away for their loved ones, so your insistence that this is a problem where Mikasa is concerned is even more bizarre.
Maybe I'm not clear with my posts but it is not the act itself that is the problem but of how Mikasa approach her situation and herself.

Quote:
"Relationship with herself"? Do you mean her "self-esteem" or "self-worth"? Because I think she has a reasonably accurate view of herself, she knows how strong and capable she is (her speech after Eren's "death" is one example, her assertion that she'll protect Eren - that she has the strength to protect him - is another). She knows how badass she is, she just chooses to use her badassery to save her family, and that's more than fine.
By relationship with herself, I simply meant the "have no heart" part. She knows she's strong and capable of fighting but for her, they are just tools to meet her true goal (and that is to save Eren). People are admiring her for her strength but this strength she has isn't tied to a healthy relationship with herself. Maybe I'm wrong with equating it with self-worth because while using that I have in my mind was the words "no heart and no compassion to give".

I get the feeling that many misunderstood my post and define it as simply me not wanting Mikasa to protect Eren or inhibiting her to sacrifice herself for him. It is not that. In this whole praxis (reflection - action), the reflection part (Mikasa's self- acceptance that she has no heart) is what I am critical on. Is she the only character in the series who showed sacrificial tendencies? Hell no. Should I be then stop critically analyzing her whole behavior because others are more or less doing what she's doing anyways? No. The justification that her reflection - action was solely because she's protecting the person she loves and that is a normal occurrence in life for me doesn't encompasses her whole character. More than anything else, I want to understand how Isayawa develops Mikasa.

Quoting myself:
Quote:
And this is where I think lies her character development - the change of the perception of herself (that she does no longer consider herself heartless, or believe that she has no compassion to give) while keeping her self-promise to protect Eren.
I know there are people who are pissed by Mikasa's "protect Eren, protect Eren, protect Eren" and just dismiss her as emotionally dependent (read: clingy). I even once read a post comparing her with Orihime (Bleach). To use that simple rubric in approaching Mikasa's behavior is erroneous for so many reasons. Perhaps I fueled that ridiculously burning fire

Last edited by Anatoelle; 2013-09-14 at 01:16.
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Old 2013-09-14, 01:23   Link #193
darklegends8
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
It is dysfunctional in a sense that is it still failing to serve as an adjusting purpose to fully understand Eren and by extension, herself. (ETA: Perhaps this will clear it up more. When I meant "coping mechanism", it doesn't primarily govern that of what's happening around her (The Titan Invasion, Eren's capture) but what is happening within her (of the reason why she said she's heartless among other things). In the chapter titled "Compassion", she asked Eren what it is more important than his life that he's hesitating to kill Annie and the answer is simply compassion. It is also because of that compassion that Eren saved her 6 years ago. That is why I'm calling it dysfunctional because although she knows her priority, by accepting she has no heart and compassion anymore, she is making a rift between the meaning/motivation behind why Eren saved her and by extent, making a rift between who she is and how she view herself. I agree that at this point, she is not self destructive but on the verge (not because she's willing to die for someone, but because of her acceptance that she has no heart and no compassion to give (even to those people she was with). I also prefer Mikasa being active than doing nothing, but it is painful to see that in doing so, she's missing the meaning of why Eren saved her (and it is because she deserves to live, that she has a beating heart, and that is it through compassion that Eren saved her). Through compassion she was saved, and compassion there is because of heart. Through this compassion Eren saved Mikasa and in doing so sharing her his heart. It is dysfunctional, because it breaks the heart.




Maybe I'm not clear with my posts but it is not the act itself that is the problem but of how Mikasa approach her situation and herself.



By relationship with herself, I simply meant the "have no heart" part. She knows she's strong and capable of fighting but for her, they are just tools to meet her true goal (and that is to save Eren). People are admiring her for her strength but this strength she has isn't tied to a healthy relationship with herself. Maybe I'm wrong with equating it with self-worth because while using that I have in my mind was the words "no heart and no compassion to give".

I get the feeling that many misunderstood my post and define it as simply me not wanting Mikasa to protect Eren or inhibiting her to sacrifice herself for him. It is not that. In this whole praxis (reflection - action), the reflection part (Mikasa's self- acceptance that she has no heart) is what I am critical on. Is she the only character in the series who showed sacrificial tendencies? Hell no. Should I be then stop critically analyzing her whole behavior because others are more or less doing what she's doing anyways? No. The justification that her reflection - action was solely because she's protecting the person she loves and that is a normal occurrence in life for me doesn't encompasses her whole character. More than anything else, I want to understand how Isayawa develops Mikasa.

Quoting myself:


I know there are people who are pissed by Mikasa's "protect Eren, protect Eren, protect Eren" and just dismiss her as emotionally dependent (read: clingy). I even once read a post comparing her with Orihime (Bleach). To use that simple rubric in approaching Mikasa's behavior is erroneous for so many reasons. Perhaps I fueled that ridiculously burning fire
Why does she have to follow Eren's raison d'être? Just because Eren choose to have compassion for others doesn't mean she has to. And why are you assuming that this version of her, where she choose to care only for Eren and not for others, is not who she really is?

Your first paragraph is a nice piece of pathos, but seems to assume that Mikasa = Eren
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Old 2013-09-14, 02:42   Link #194
Anatoelle
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Why does she have to follow Eren's raison d'être? Just because Eren choose to have compassion for others doesn't mean she has to. And why are you assuming that this version of her, where she choose to care only for Eren and not for others, is not who she really is?

Your first paragraph is a nice piece of pathos, but seems to assume that Mikasa = Eren
Not to follow precisely, but to understand. To understand, and then to reflect and to reflect, to realize that she has a heart. To realize that "who" she is isn't a person that is "heartless" but a person who has love/heart and a person to protect because of it. Again, I have no problem with her protecting Eren, but on how she view herself in doing so. For her to ask Eren in the chapter called "Compassion" why he is hesitating to kill Annie is a clear misunderstanding (on her part) of why Eren also saved her 6 years ago. In her train of thought, Eren is the one who save her. FULL STOP. No reflection of why he did so and in return no understanding of what is shared during that situation. In her admittance that it was decided - for her- that there is no heart within her and no compassion to give due to what transpired 6 years ago, truly epitomizes her inner struggle for self - control. Eren also has a problem with this one. He also can't see Mikasa's perception and because of that misunderstanding, they aren't able to communicate well. It is why her coping mechanism with her inner struggle was dysfunctional. It is because she accepted within herself that heart only hinders her and that it should not dominate her being, that she can't understand Eren and by extent, she can't create a healthy relationship with herself.

Because who she is is an admirable person who is willing to die for the person she loves but in her perception, it is simply because it was decided 6 years ago. This is why I like the part where Levi voiced out Mikasa's feelings for Eren. Through this kind of communication, Mikasa will truly understand herself and to see the idea that she is indeed, not heartless at all.

But yeah, let us see. My interpretation of her character isn't certain. She is after all, the subversion of a "shounen hero" trope.

Last edited by Anatoelle; 2013-09-14 at 03:02.
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Old 2013-09-14, 04:40   Link #195
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
It is dysfunctional in a sense that is it still failing to serve as an adjusting purpose to fully understand Eren and by extension, herself. (ETA: Perhaps this will clear it up more. When I meant "coping mechanism", it doesn't primarily govern that of what's happening around her (The Titan Invasion, Eren's capture) but what is happening within her (of the reason why she said she's heartless among other things). In the chapter titled "Compassion", she "asked" Eren what is more important than his life that he's hesitating to kill Annie and the answer is simply compassion. It is also because of that compassion that Eren saved her 6 years ago. That is why I'm calling it dysfunctional because although she knows her priority, by accepting she has no heart and compassion anymore, she is making a rift between the meaning/motivation behind why Eren saved her and by extent, making a rift between who she is and how she view herself. I agree that at this point, she is not self destructive but on the verge (not because she's willing to die for someone, but because of her acceptance that she has no heart and no compassion to give (even to those people she was with). I also prefer Mikasa being active than doing nothing, but it is painful to see that in doing so, she's missing the meaning of why Eren saved her (and it is because she deserves to live, that she has a beating heart, and that is it through compassion that Eren saved her). Through compassion she was saved, and compassion there is because of heart. Through this compassion Eren saved Mikasa and in doing so sharing her his heart. It is dysfunctional, because it breaks the heart.
She is demonstrably not without compassion. She also has better sense than to put that compassion ahead of her own survival and that of her friends.

Spoiler for manga:


Sometimes heroes see their principles tested. Maybe Batman could be faced with the sadistic choice of saving Robin or the Joker. Or Robin and and innocent. And even in the first case, he'd agonize over it, "never take a life yadda yadda...", and in the end would think of a way to save both because he's the goddamn Batman.

Well, faced with a similar choice, Mikasa would save Eren and not think twice. That's what you want to call dysfunctional?
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Old 2013-09-14, 04:59   Link #196
lateraldeath
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Originally Posted by Anatoelle View Post
It is dysfunctional in a sense that is it still failing to serve as an adjusting purpose to fully understand Eren and by extension, herself. (ETA: Perhaps this will clear it up more. When I meant "coping mechanism", it doesn't primarily govern that of what's happening around her (The Titan Invasion, Eren's capture) but what is happening within her (of the reason why she said she's heartless among other things). In the chapter titled "Compassion", she "asked" Eren what is more important than his life that he's hesitating to kill Annie and the answer is simply compassion. It is also because of that compassion that Eren saved her 6 years ago. That is why I'm calling it dysfunctional because although she knows her priority, by accepting she has no heart and compassion anymore, she is making a rift between the meaning/motivation behind why Eren saved her and by extent, making a rift between who she is and how she view herself. I agree that at this point, she is not self
It's funny to me how you pretty much ignored mine, Darklegends8, and Parchevich similar point and go on to explain the same thing you've said the past few days that we all counterpointed against.

Which is, yes it's not healthy for Mikasa to be so caught up on Eren emotionally, none of us debates that. But there is a TIME to think about everything and right now, it's certainly not time for Mikasa to think about "how I should lead my life?" when Eren's the most important thing for the entire human race.

Let me put it into an analogy for you. If you and you're family are in a bank that's being robbed. Your first thought isn't going to be, "should I change careers and discover myself a bit more?" I mean common, no one's going to have that kind of long term thought in that moment. Everyone's going to be thinking "how the hell am I suppose to get me and my family out of this life or death desperate situation, what the hell do I have to sacrifice to accomplish that?" And for pretty much the entire series, Mikasa and Eren has been in a long ass life or death bank robbery. I can't understand why you ignore this simple fact that Mikasa is doing what she is doing out of human nature fitting to the situation she is in, and argue for a point that does not apply to her situational context what so ever.

Last edited by lateraldeath; 2013-09-14 at 05:19.
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Old 2013-09-14, 10:46   Link #197
Iron Maw
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I guess it will not be possible for me to end Season 1 of the anime before people tell me the whole story of the manga directly without spoiler tags. I just want to remind that this is NOT a manga thread...


Actually Eren and Mikasa being a gender flipped "damsel in distress" situation seems to be true to a certain extent and in the other case people are at worst complaining about the trope being too overused. Why is no one complaining about Mario being so obsessed with Peach all the time? I can so see a situation in Attack on Titan where someone tells Mikasa "Thanks for saving us. Eren is in another castle."
Except he's saved her too, more than once at that.
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Old 2013-09-16, 08:33   Link #198
n120cky
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Except he's saved her too, more than once at that.
Umm, am I forgeting something or Mikasa never save Eren from anything? Except when they still kid... And thats just once...
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Old 2013-09-16, 13:28   Link #199
moncikoma
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im a no manga reader...so spare me from any spoiler...


"why mikasa so hate and hate annie sooooo much...?"

is she jelous? or something...haha
i bet she is...!
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Old 2013-09-16, 14:12   Link #200
Anh_Minh
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Well, remember who trained Eren in hand-to-hand (or, as we say in French, corps-à-corps, body-to-body) combat... Who taught him all kinds of submission techniques, sweating it out on the ground for hours on end...
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