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Old 2013-05-06, 12:39   Link #101
Anh_Minh
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If they could make (cheap) bombs that can take a titan out if they're stuck to his neck, they could:
- use the 3D gear to plant a hook in the titan's neck
- use 3d gear and a pulley system to drag the bomb against the hook. I mean, the 3D gear already zooms human adults around with no problem.

Not sure if they could make a good enough bomb, though.
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Old 2013-05-06, 13:51   Link #102
CJ_Walker
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post

Not sure if they could make a good enough bomb, though.
probably this, Im pretty sure they dont have the resources (or technology)to do this en masse.

Still better than the arrows idea though. . .
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Old 2013-05-06, 13:53   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If they could make (cheap) bombs that can take a titan out if they're stuck to his neck, they could:
- use the 3D gear to plant a hook in the titan's neck
- use 3d gear and a pulley system to drag the bomb against the hook. I mean, the 3D gear already zooms human adults around with no problem.

Not sure if they could make a good enough bomb, though.
That's exactly what I also proposed.

There aren't many things you can say against the feasibility of such system, and not because it is realistic, but because it is based on technology and equipment that already exist and are proven to work in the anime itself.


To whoever was skeptical on the accuracy that a ranged weapon could have, on the possibility for a hook to stick on titan flesh, on the strength required to pull explosives to them, just think of how the 3D gear works and you'll realize that all of that has been proved to work already.


Every soldier is already trained to use ranged weapons (just think about Sasha and how she rescued that guy), and they are trained to use them while moving at incredibly high speed. In relation to them every single thing is a moving target, and trees aren't that bigger than a titan.

The hooks stick on Titan flesh without any problem. We have seen Eren doing that on the colossal titan.

The pulley system using gas and hydraulics can easily and quickly work with weights that go up to 100 kg.

The only thing that's left is the bomb. We know for sure that they have explosives, because else the cannons wouldn't work.

What they probably lack is the knowledge necessary to create effective bombs using the explosives that they already have. It wouldn't take a genius to get to that, but I guess nobody there thought about it.
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Old 2013-05-06, 15:46   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
If they could make (cheap) bombs that can take a titan out if they're stuck to his neck, they could:
- use the 3D gear to plant a hook in the titan's neck
- use 3d gear and a pulley system to drag the bomb against the hook. I mean, the 3D gear already zooms human adults around with no problem.

Not sure if they could make a good enough bomb, though.
The problem with this is ideally you do NOT want to spend too much time near the Titan. Once you've latched onto the Titan, it's aware they you're there and all it takes is a reactionary swat in your direction to put that plan to waste.
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Old 2013-05-06, 15:55   Link #105
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Originally Posted by Trogdor Jube View Post
The problem with this is ideally you do NOT want to spend too much time near the Titan. Once you've latched onto the Titan, it's aware they you're there and all it takes is a reactionary swat in your direction to put that plan to waste.
The idea is to stay out of the Titan's range so it's even safer than engaging in melee combat which is what they do now.
Don't forget that Titans react to humans more than to anything else. You can't sneak up to them, they are always aware of you especially if you get close. There is no advantage whatsoever in preferring a melee approach if your problem is the Titan's awareness.

Additionally once the hook hits the target you can move away immediately using your 3d gear. You don't need to stay there.
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Old 2013-05-06, 15:57   Link #106
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Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
Maybe, but as someone said before, it's a pin-point attack. What do we know about the titan's weakpoint so far? That you need to attack the whole area, we don't even know if the thing that kills them is deep or not. We don't know if it's a small organ or a wide web of nerves. Or even if all titans have it exactly in the same place.

We only know more or less where it is, so, that reduces your idea to explosive arrows only.

Also, blades have far more momentum than arrows. It's like comparing a guillotine vs arrow when it comes to beheading humans.
Penetration to a hard surface isn't all about momentum. Guillotine will have a hard time cutting metal plates while arrow will still penetrate it. Unless there is a specific reason why 100 arrows penetrating the neck some how does less damage then a pass by melee swing from two swords, I don't see how arrows will do less damage. It will go deeper then the slash for sure and wide area with more arrows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
Melee needs one very skilled soldier to cut down a titan. Normal Arrows needs many of them per Titan. This completely discards normal arrows, because is too ineffective to have that many soldiers attacking each titan in synchronous formations/tactics.

On explosive arrows: I told you before, we don't know if they have the chemical knowledge to develop lightweight/very stable/portable/highly-volatile/impermeable explosives like C4. You are assuming too much.

They have gunpodwer tech, but the amount they need to blow off their weakpoint would make the arrows weight to much. I don't think this weight would hinder their ability to shoot accurately, but the ammunition that each soldier would be able to carry will be limited. Carrying too much of these explosive arrows would definitively affect the all-important mobility. Also, rain renders gunpodwer useless afaik.
We are talking about defensive tactics, offensive tactics is another matter that needs more planning. Range combat, especially in this instance, is all about controlling the environment in your favor to allow you maximize the effectiveness of your range weapons. In the example I raised, having a hole in the wall where the giants walk into the hole in a single file (since hole only allow 1 giant to enter at a time), is perfect for range combat to take them out 1 at a time and maximizes effectiveness of archers. They need to make some structure changes to the wall to build different tier for archers to station from and add some taller structure all throughout the city for additional coverage in case some giants gets pass the initial choke point. But with proper planning, you essentially create a death trap for the giants where each one is greeted with thousands of arrows, bolts, explosive arrows and such.

As for explosive arrows and gunpowder, they have tech for cannons that was demonstrated. That's enough for explosive arrows. The Chinese created them several hundred years before cannons were created. First document account of explosive arrows is 994 A.D. and first documented cannon is 1282 A.D and those are far cruder then the ones used in the show. So they definitely have sufficient tech for explosive arrows, just not using C4.

As for the explosives make the arrow weight too much, the arrows are designed differently to take account for that - such as adding long balanced tubing along and around the shaft to contain gunpowder. You lose some accuracy and range but you trade more aoe damage for it. All of this was done before cannons were even created.

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Finally, RESOURCES. I can imagine each of those arrows being more expensive than a single blade. And each blade can be used for many titans, their durability will be show next week.
Why would arrow be more costly then blade? The metal on the arrows are just the heads. It should be far far cheaper. Also arrows are reusable. Once the battle is over, you can recover them, re-sharpen them and then they are good to use again. Even the ones that have shafts snapped can reuse the arrow heads. The explosive arrows are also relatively cheap, they would at most be equivalent to cannon balls in cost, but likely much less. Instead of losing tons of human lives and metal from broken blades, this is far less resource being used.



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Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
Big dumb: You are assuming that Titans ignore humans and mind their own thing like most birds do. They don't. An archer would need to stay at a distance from them, hindering accuracy for an already reduced range due to heavier explosive arrows.
Predictable fashion: One of the first things this episode showed us is how unpredictable they are. You are wrong on this one. Many arrows will miss and that will hit on the soldier's stamina harder than melee.
Slow: Somewhat true, but not all of them are like that. There are deviant titans that can lounge towards a flying human.


Yes, if c4 explosive arrows are a possibility, they would be the better weapon.
Most Titans seems to behave exactly like zombies. They seek their prey and ignore all else and they seek the reachable prey first. I have not seen them behave otherwise so far. Even the show explained that they show no sign of intelligence, tactics, etc. Standard range for a long bow is around 200 - 300 meter. Explosive arrows may be shorter, lets say 150 - 200 meter. The wall is only 50 Meter high and giants are having problems getting pass it since they cannot climb. If you put archers on the wall at least 40 M above ground, you have plenty of range to shoot any giant coming through the hole and they would be far within your range of fire and no where even close to your max range.

We have seen several wall breach so far and there wasn't a single instance where the giants went after the solders that are stationed on the wall. Because they are simply too tall for them to reach and they just ignore them and go for human targets on the ground. So archers station on the wall or similarly tall buildings will be ignore the same.



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Originally Posted by zRichard View Post
The author, through his world building, can "force" humanity to fight one way or the other. It is fair game as long as he doesn't present a clearly better tool to fight Titans, like an abundance of advanced explosives. Bows and Arrows exist in the SnK world, but there are reasons why they are useless. You just can't accept those reasons as "sufficient".

It is not fair game is to twist the world of that author to create those new tools for yourself. Which is what you are doing. You are assuming too much things about their military technology.
With what is already shown, the tools are definitely within their tech level and resource capabilities. I am not creating new tools but using the world the author has built to generate weapons that are far more suitable for combating these titans, with much higher chance of killing them at the same time reducing casually to a very low probability.
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Old 2013-05-06, 16:13   Link #107
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Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
that's because arrow moves at a certain speed where you can't achieve it just by swinging a blade/axe
not in this case because the speed advantage arrow has is covered by 3D Maneuvers gear

In normal condition i.e. people swinging a blade and the other shooting an arrow, you might be able to argue that arrow has more penetration power to do so, but let's refresh your memory from scenes from episode 2
in episode 2, Jean & Eren specifically said that they weren't able to cut deep enough (especially if you compare those to what Mikasa did)
Momentum = Mass*Velocity

Eren and Jean weigh around 55-60Kg, arrow probably only weigh less than 1 -2Kg and I highly doubt it will go around 50times faster than 3D Maneuvers gear to achieve the required momentum and penetrate deep enough through Titan skin (not to mention they also swing their hand/blade as hard as they could before hitting the neck part which increase the momentum tremendously)

Code:
Soldier = 50kg
Speed = 5m/s
Momentum = 250 kg m/s + the swing  power (differs from person to person)

arrow = 1kg
Speed = 5m/s
Momentum = 5 kg m/s + none

(5/250)*100 =  2%

hence assuming arrow and 3D gear have the same speed, arrow will only deal 2% damage (max) of what swinging blade could achieve

*all the number above just an assumption to prove my point
you can argue that you can deal enough damage by using many archers at the same time creating some sort of arrow rain, but again by doing so you will need space to accomodate all the archers (I don't see the wall or street are wide enough to fit all those archers).
It will also lose even more power compared to just aim straight to the target.

and the problem here is not just dealing enough damage but dealing deep enough damage.

and assuming your method is working, the problem appears 100 years after peaceful era of humanity without any significant attack of "normal" titan behind the wall where 60m Colossus Titan (that can appear & disappear and generating some sort of steam enough to repel Eren and his 3D Maneuvers gear let alone an arrow) and armored titan (which could repel a goddamn cannonball so an arrow is not so much a threat is it?) suddenly appeared and destroy their peaceful day
Armor penetration with arrows isn't all about momentum. It's a combination of momentum and kinetic energy with KE being the deciding factor. That's why the armor piercing rounds actually weighs less then normal rounds and same reason why arrows will pierce plate armor while melee swing will not.

And btw, arrows travel around 50-60 m/s, not 5.
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Old 2013-05-06, 16:53   Link #108
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I think Titan's weak point is not about piecing it or cutting it. It's about removing large chunk of it from titan's body. Look at how Eren and co. slash dummy in their training. You can piece a hundred holes into titan neck but I doubt it will do anything. Ok a hundred holes may do something but stills ^^".



I think the idea of hook a bomb at titan sound the best so far. It sound more safer than hooking and sending a flesh human in a thousand time lol.
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Old 2013-05-06, 17:17   Link #109
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There is still explosive arrows.

Not sure why removing chunk is needed since the show has not provide any rationale for it yet. When they are slashing in training, it's naturally that way since they are using 3D gear and duel whield and slicing while spinning. But if giants regenerate anyways, not sure why slicing chunks off makes any difference vs penetrating deep.
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Old 2013-05-06, 17:47   Link #110
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
There is still explosive arrows.

Not sure why removing chunk is needed since the show has not provide any rationale for it yet. When they are slashing in training, it's naturally that way since they are using 3D gear and duel whield and slicing while spinning. But if giants regenerate anyways, not sure why slicing chunks off makes any difference vs penetrating deep.
However it's a fact that that's necessary. That's the reason they need two blades to begin with. Normally it wouldn't make sense to use two swords, but simply slashing that area wouldn't do any good.
Two swords are necessary to cut away an entire chunk of the nape before it regenerates.

Destroying it completely is another option, which is why cannons with a bit of luck can also work.

The rationale for that is unknown, they do not know it themselves, they just know that there's no other way to kill them.
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Old 2013-05-06, 18:16   Link #111
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Where is this "fact" that it is necessary?

Regeneration still applies if you slash a chunk away, make a cut wound or stick an arrow deep. And explosive arrow essentially is taking a chunk away, even larger chunk at it.
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Old 2013-05-06, 18:17   Link #112
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The rationale for that is unknown, they do not know it themselves, [...]
I thought it was because swords are cool.

("But Knackwurst, if you rely on metareasoning, nothing is ever fun anymore...!")

Removal would make sense if it wasn't a matter of severing the spine (being able to regenerate a destroyed head would support that) but if what's in the neck region is something like an extra organ that has to be removed to kill the titan, and that merely punching holes in it isn't enough, due to the regeneration factor.

Warts and cancer come to mind.
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Old 2013-05-06, 18:21   Link #113
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Regeneration applies both losing a piece of the organ or a hole in the organ. I don't see how that is any different. In fact, I would bet it is much harder to regenerate 100 deep holes then losing a small chunk of that organ.

And yet again, explosive arrows achieves better results then slicing away a piece.
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Old 2013-05-06, 18:26   Link #114
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Where is this "fact" that it is necessary?

Regeneration still applies if you slash a chunk away, make a cut wound or stick an arrow deep. And explosive arrow essentially is taking a chunk away, even larger chunk at it.
The "fact" comes from the direct experience of those who have dealt with the titans.

They cut the titans' nape. Do they die? No, the cut regenerates.

They damage the titans' nape. Do they die? No, the damage regenerates.

They cut away an entire chunk of titans' nape. Do they die? Yes! regeneration does not apply if you cut away a chunk of their neck.

They completely destroy a large enough portion of a titans' nape. Do they die? Yes!


That's simply how it is. They don't know why, but they have factual proofs that this is how it is.


What are you basing your denial of this on, anyway? You can't apply logic for something that you know absolutely nothing about. Do you know why and how they regenerate?
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Old 2013-05-06, 18:34   Link #115
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
The "fact" comes from the direct experience of those who have dealt with the titans.

They cut the titans' nape. Do they die? No, the cut regenerates.

They damage the titans' nape. Do they die? No, the damage regenerates.

They cut away an entire chunk of titans' nape. Do they die? Yes!

They completely destroy a large enough portion of a titans' nape. Do they die? Yes!


That's simply how it is. They don't know why, but they have factual proofs that this is how it is.


What are you basing your denial of this on, anyway? You can't apply logic for something that you know absolutely nothing about. Do you know why and how they regenerate?

Did the anime address shooting 100 arrows into the nape and giant does not die? Nope.

Cutting doesn't work because of regeneration is explained. You simply need to do enough damage beyond it's ability to regenerate, thus slicing a large piece away. That does not however mean punching 100 holes does not do the same.

And once again you are straight out ignoring that explosive arrows does precisely the same as cutting a large piece of nape away with even better results.

I don't know why and how they regenerate, thus I am basing on the information that is given so far. If you want to say there are valid reasons but will be revealed later, fine I will wait until that is revealed to judge if it makes sense. But don't say that based on what we were told so far that I am in denial. The fact that you some how denies that blowing away a bigger chunk of the nape is less effective then slicing a chunk away makes me doubtful of a valid rationale since your whole argument was based slicing a chunk away is what needs to kill it and now I am take a bigger chunk away by blowing it to pieces and yet somehow that does not kill it.

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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
They cut away an entire chunk of titans' nape. Do they die? Yes! regeneration does not apply if you cut away a chunk of their neck.
Please point out to me where exactly in the first 5 episodes is this stated. That cutting a chunk away prevents regeneration. What I have seen shows the opposite.
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Old 2013-05-06, 18:51   Link #116
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Did the anime address shooting 100 arrows into the nape and giant does not die? Nope.
Yeah then perhaps they can die if you throw blessed water at them, they haven't addressed that either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Cutting doesn't work because of regeneration is explained. You simply need to do enough damage beyond it's ability to regenerate, thus slicing a large piece away. That does not however mean punching 100 holes does not do the same.
It doesn't mean that that will work either.
Your argument is as good as saying that since a vampire can die if you cut his head, then 100 arrows thrown at his head will kill him too. Though I've never heard of anyone even suggesting that before, there's no absolute logic that would dictate that it must work too, because the piece of meats would still be connected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
And once again you are straight out ignoring that explosive arrows does precisely the same as cutting a large piece of nape away with even better results.
Stop assuming and read carefully what I wrote. I said that completely destroying a large portion of their nape works too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Please point out to me where exactly in the first 5 episodes is this stated. That cutting a chunk away prevents regeneration. What I have seen shows the opposite.
It was explained with an explanatory image too



The teacher specifies that they need to use two swords, and that they need to do substatial damage before they regenerate. and as we have seen they regenerate very fast.
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Old 2013-05-06, 19:01   Link #117
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post

Spoiler for canons, I think it was mentioned in ep 5:
Going back a bit on this, the episode does give info on the cannons, but only in the eye catches:

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Old 2013-05-06, 19:05   Link #118
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Yeah then perhaps they can die if you throw blessed water at them, they haven't addressed that either.

It doesn't mean that that will work either.
Your argument is as good as saying that since a vampire can die if you cut is head, then 100 arrows thrown at his head will kill him too. Though I've never heard of anyone even suggesting that before, there's no absolute logic that would dictate that it must work too, because the piece of meats would still be connected.

Stop assuming and read carefully what I wrote. I said that completely destroying a large portion of their nape works too.
Holy water is not known to kill unless you are a vampire. Arrows however is known to kill.

That's a straw man argument about beheading the vampire. Because this show does not specifically say cutting away a chunk of flesh is the only way to kill him.

Here is what the anime said in Eps 5, based on Crunchyroll Sub:
Severe damage here (nape of neck) will prevent regeneration, and the Titan will die. Thus, we use two swords to rend away their flesh. If you can strike that vital spot, you will kill them before they have time to regenerate.

I listened to the original Japanese several times to compare to the sub and what I see and hear is exactly what I thought before, you just need to do severe enough damage before they can regenerate fast enough. It does not however state that cutting away flesh prevents regeneration nor does it state that is the only way to do severe damage. Only that this is what they come up with. This is why I said, unless there are other reason not told down the road in the story, or that the author simply choose to force the story down its path using this way to combat the giants, there is no reason why arrows do not work, especially explosive arrows.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maw View Post
Going back a bit on this, the episode does give info on the cannons, but only in the eye catches:

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It doesn't say grape shot hitting the back of the neck. Just in general it is less lethal, which is understandable since it is just a cannon ball. So basically shells can kill as long as they hit the head and blow it up including the nape of neck, since most cannons are facing giants and not firing from behind. This already proves that explosive arrow will work. It will be far more accurate, aimed at nape of neck and does explosive damage.
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Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:24. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
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Old 2013-05-06, 19:17   Link #119
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I know I've posted this in the Episode thread, but I'll post this again here, which would be more appropriate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I don't know if people don't read the posts or just skim past them. I will format it in an fashion that is easier to read:

1. Arrow cannot penetrate neck skin.
Arrows have far more penetration power then swinging a blade. If a blade can cut it, arrows can penetrate it. Long bow arrows are used to penetrate plate armor in the 14th and 15th century.

2. Not enough damage from arrows.
Lots of arrows hitting giant neck will do more damage then cuts. Explosive arrows will blow the entire area into pieces.

3. Giant's neck is hard to hit because it is moving.
It's far easier to hit a big area on a big dumb target that is moving at a constant speed in a predicable fashion. If an archer can hit a bird flying, he or she can hit a large patch of skin on the giant's neck that is moving far slower.

4. Neck will regenerate as well.
Well with arrows, especially explosive ones, you do far more damage, far faster then getting close and cut with swords, even if you are spinning to slice pieces off, and also with zero risk of you being picked off before you even get the cut in, just like Eren's squad.

The only reason why the author isn't having the humans using archers is because either he didn't think it through himself or force plot into a certain direction, in which case he should have given better reasoning why bows don't work against giants. What we know so far from these first episodes does not give sufficient cause to favor melee combat over range combat, especially at the horrible exchange rate for a kill.
I think you overlooked one point.

All that you have suggested will work, but only on a few titans. I know you mentioned something about 100 out of 1000 arrows, but that's like hitting only, what, one titan? Assuming that is so, then what does that make 100 titans? 10,000 out of 100,000 arrows? The thing is, given the small population of the human race and the limited resources, it's close to impossible to manufacture so many arrows unless the humans go out to the outside world and find more resources. Arrows are more of short-term success and certainly won't work in the long run. So basically, it requires a lot more resources to manufacture bows and arrows than swords.

Then you can argue, "We'll just have to wait for the Colossal Titan to appear, and then we'll shoot the arrows at him, since he's the biggest threat." Well, that's easier said than done. Not to mention the Colossal Titan is a smart one. As if a large rain of puny arrows would be enough to kill him. I bet he can easily deflect them.

EDIT: And by the way,

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Explosive arrow
What in the world is an explosive arrow? I doubt such a thing exists in this world of titans, which is meant to reflect reality. Like someone mentioned before, you watched too much anime. It would be more believable if you said fire arrow. Unless you can give me a reliable source that explosive arrows do exist in real life.
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Old 2013-05-06, 19:17   Link #120
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Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Holy water is not known to kill unless you are a vampire. Arrows however is known to kill.
Arrows are not known to kill a Titan anymore than blessed water is.

Yeah arrows are known to kill a human, but a shot in the head is also known to kill a human, but it doesn't work on titans.


Quote:
Severe damage here (nape of neck) will prevent regeneration, and the Titan will die. Thus, we use two swords to rend away their flesh. If you can strike that vital spot, you will kill them before they have time to regenerate.
Are you nitpicking on the choice of words or you don't get what "rend away" means?
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