AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Attack on Titan

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-05-06, 19:34   Link #121
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Arrows are not known to kill a Titan anymore than blessed water is.

Yeah arrows are known to kill a human, but a shot in the head is also known to kill a human, but it doesn't work on titans.

Are you nitpicking on the choice of words or you don't get what "rend away" means?
How do you know arrows are not known to kill titan? No where is that information been revealed to us. Comparing blessed water vs arrow when I am comparing arrow to blade? Does that even make sense?

I am not nitpicking the word "rend away" at all. But it does not say "rend away" prevents regeneration, not "rend away" is the only effective way to deal severe damage. All the passage says is that you need to do severe damage to the nape of the neck to outpace the giant's regeneration in order to kill it, then proceeds to say use two blades. That does not mean 100 arrows does not do severe damage or will not work. It's not the case where only method that will work is "rending away", which seems to be your take away from this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
I know I've posted this in the Episode thread, but I'll post this again here, which would be more appropriate:

I think you overlooked one point.

All that you have suggested will work, but only on a few titans. I know you mentioned something about 100 out of 1000 arrows, but that's like hitting only, what, one titan? Assuming that is so, then what does that make 100 titans? 10,000 out of 100,000 arrows? The thing is, given the small population of the human race and the limited resources, it's close to impossible to manufacture so many arrows unless the humans go out to the outside world and find more resources. Arrows are more of short-term success and certainly won't work in the long run. So basically, it requires a lot more resources to manufacture bows and arrows than swords.

Then you can argue, "We'll just have to wait for the Colossal Titan to appear, and then we'll shoot the arrows at him, since he's the biggest threat." Well, that's easier said than done. Not to mention the Colossal Titan is a smart one. As if a large rain of puny arrows would be enough to kill him. I bet he can easily deflect them.

EDIT: And by the way,



What in the world is an explosive arrow? I doubt such a thing exists in this world of titans, which is meant to reflect reality. Like someone mentioned before, you watched too much anime. It would be more believable if you said fire arrow. Unless you can give me a reliable source that explosive arrows do exist in real life.
On your first argument, yes, open war outside of the walled against giants needs to be carefully planned to control the confrontation to limit the number of titans engaged is of a number that can be taken down by limited man power. It can still be done since titans have no tactics or any semblance of organization as we see so far barring the colossal titan and the armored titan, which explanation of their existence will surely be forthcoming. However, on a defensive fight, especially where only 1 titan can walk through the 8 meter hole at a time, it makes perfect sense.

Why would it not exist since they have the tech level to produce it? They have explosive shells on the cannons, which is similar concept. Gun powder in cylindrical container with fuse attached to an arrow is an explosive arrow. Once the fuse gets to the gunpowder, it will create an explosion. Not as a big one as the explosive shells but you trade accuracy and numbers and being able to hit the weak area for it.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:22. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 19:43   Link #122
Seitsuki
Onee!
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Auckland, NZ
You are terribly terribly overestimating the accuracy of arrows at a distance, especially with the type of bows they'd be able to make with their technology. Bows were only effective when massed, and that was indiscriminate fire. You need extremely accurate shots to place them deep in the nape. How many arrows will that take? How much time per Titan? How many people needed to make those shots? And all the while more and more Titans just keep flooding in. And it's not even determined just what kind of damage is needed yet! For all we know the nape is just one massive bunch of stem cells which have to be all cut out at once. You could FILL them with arrows and as long as a few cells remain they will still regen. Seriously. No.

As for explosive arrows: the extra weight would slash the range even more. Do you realise just how big a gunpowder explosion would be need to be to erase that much area? Not just 'damage', but 'erase'? And you want to fit all that powder onto a primitive arrow?
__________________
thanks to Patchy ♥
Seitsuki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 19:57   Link #123
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
How do you know arrows are not known to kill titan? No where is that information been revealed to us.
How do you know that blessed water is not known to kill titans? No where is that information been revealed to us.

Or perhaps... it's better to assume that something doesn't work if it was never said to work

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Comparing blessed water vs arrow when I am comparing arrow to blade? Does that even make sense?
Why not? Suppose I was talking about vampires with someone who knew nothing about vampires. And suppose that the only thing he knew was that they die if you cut their head.
Would it be logical for him to exclude that they die with blessed water?

No. Because he knows nothing about vampires and he shouldn't assume that they are like humans.

But it would be logical for him to assume that they don't.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I am not nitpicking the word "rend away" at all. But it does not say "rend away" prevents regeneration,
It says they die. How could they die if they regenerated? I think you're just nitpicking here. If you cut away a portion of their nape they die. It is only logical to conclude that that's a damage they cannot regenerate. Unlike blowing their head.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
not "rend away" is the only effective way to deal severe damage.
And I never said that that's the only way. But it is clear that the damage must be substantial.

Look, I think you understand that you cannot rend away flesh using a single sword. You can cut, you can slice, you cannot rend. In order to rend you need to use two swords at the same time.

Now here you just need to use your brain and ask yourself why is it that they need to use two swords and why he specifically said that they need to rend flesh away.

And no, saying that it was the first thing that it crossed his mind doesn't cut it.

There's also the training scene where you clearly see that they cut away entire pieces at once from the dummy titans.

Surely there must be a reason. And there must be a reason if the drawing on the chalkboard specifically show that a chunk of meat was removed from the titan's neck.

There's more than enough of evidence. Simply repeatedly slicing the Titans' neck wouldn't work. Because they would regenerate before you can slice them again. It wouldn't amount to anything.

They need to deal a substantial damage all at once. And cutting away a chunk of meat in one strike is the only way to achieve that using blades.

Is this the only system? No, because we also know that cannons were used in the past and they worked too albeit not very effectively.

Again you can infer that a cannonball can deal substantial damage all at once at their nape with a proper shot.
And yes if it's done well it can rend away part of their flesh.


We know that these two methods work. Therefore we can assume than anything that can deal a comparable damage all at once at their neck will work too. But we cannot assume anything else.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 20:39   Link #124
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
How do you know that blessed water is not known to kill titans? No where is that information been revealed to us.

Or perhaps... it's better to assume that something doesn't work if it was never said to work

Why not? Suppose I was talking about vampires with someone who knew nothing about vampires. And suppose that the only thing he knew was that they die if you cut their head.
Would it be logical for him to exclude that they die with blessed water?

No. Because he knows nothing about vampires and he shouldn't assume that they are like humans.

But it would be logical for him to assume that they don't.
Do you like straw man that much that you have to use it in every one of your arguments? Let's put aside regeneration for a second, is it reasonable to assume that arrow will deal damage just like blade does, since we have seen the effect of cannon fire and they do get injured by conventional weapons, while there are no reasonable assumption that can be made with holy water?

I mean they obviously made certain assumption to come up with using two blades and not holy water. You have to start some where. Starting with since blade cut does injure titans, arrows also do makes perfect sense, while the logic of using holy water have no grounds.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
It says they die. How could they die if they regenerated? I think you're just nitpicking here. If you cut away a portion of their nape they die. It is only logical to conclude that that's a damage they cannot regenerate. Unlike blowing their head.
Because the exact wording is doing severe damage such that they cannot regenerate fast enough, not it stops regeneration. There is a clear distinction here. And severe damage is not limited to cutting away a portion of their nape. All this is purely your words and not what is said. A lot of arrows on the nape full fill the condition to kill the giant according to these definitions. It does severe damage that the titans cannot regenerate fast enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
And I never said that that's the only way. But it is clear that the damage must be substantial.
100 hundred arrows is far more substantial then slicing a chunk of flesh away.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Look, I think you understand that you cannot rend away flesh using a single sword. You can cut, you can slice, you cannot rend. In order to rend you need to use two swords at the same time.

Now here you just need to use your brain and ask yourself why is it that they need to use two swords and why he specifically said that they need to rend flesh away.

And no, saying that it was the first thing that it crossed his mind doesn't cut it.

There's also the training scene where you clearly see that they cut away entire pieces at once from the dummy titans.

Surely there must be a reason. And there must be a reason if the drawing on the chalkboard specifically show that a chunk of meat was removed from the titan's neck.

There's more than enough of evidence. Simply repeatedly slicing the Titans' neck wouldn't work. Because they would regenerate before you can slice them again. It wouldn't amount to anything.

They need to deal a substantial damage all at once. And cutting away a chunk of meat in one strike is the only way to achieve that using blades.

Is this the only system? No, because we also know that cannons were used in the past and they worked too albeit not very effectively.

Again you can infer that a cannonball can deal substantial damage all at once at their nape with a proper shot.
And yes if it's done well it can rend away part of their flesh.


We know that these two methods work. Therefore we can assume than anything that can deal a comparable damage all at once at their neck will work too. But we cannot assume anything else.
Surely the author is all knowing and never mistakes. No author ever does and there are never any plot holes to any story. Simply use your logic, if all it takes is to "render away" a chunk of flesh, why bother melee and not use explosive arrows even if you want to invalidate regular arrows. Why trade hundreds of thousands of death and lose 1/3 of your territory when you can hold the choke with archers using explosive arrows only, which "render away" their nape of neck even more effectively then blades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seitsuki View Post
You are terribly terribly overestimating the accuracy of arrows at a distance, especially with the type of bows they'd be able to make with their technology. Bows were only effective when massed, and that was indiscriminate fire. You need extremely accurate shots to place them deep in the nape. How many arrows will that take? How much time per Titan? How many people needed to make those shots? And all the while more and more Titans just keep flooding in. And it's not even determined just what kind of damage is needed yet! For all we know the nape is just one massive bunch of stem cells which have to be all cut out at once. You could FILL them with arrows and as long as a few cells remain they will still regen. Seriously. No.

As for explosive arrows: the extra weight would slash the range even more. Do you realise just how big a gunpowder explosion would be need to be to erase that much area? Not just 'damage', but 'erase'? And you want to fit all that powder onto a primitive arrow?
Even by your standard, with massive fire focused at a giant bulls eye (their nape - please do remember they are big), 90% miss and 10% hit, with 1000 archers on the wall shooting at a single giant that enters the hole, with a reload time of 1 arrow per second. They will pump at least 300 arrows into the nape of that giant before the next one shows up. So that is 3000s per giant and let say they kill 1000 giants before no other ones are close enough to show up, that's only 3 million arrows. You think losing 1/3 of your territory and 250 k lives is worth more then 3 million arrows? Besides, once the fight is over, most of the arrows can be retrieved and reused. This is merely using a small force of archers.

As for the range issue. The wall is only 50 M, even station on top and shooting down, the range is only 70 M or so at most 100M. That is close range for long bow since their max range is 200 - 300M. Even if you lose some range with explosive arrows you are still well within your bow's range.

Primitive when they have explosive shells from cannons, when the earliest form of cannon that are invented several hundred years after explosive arrows in history?
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:22. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:08   Link #125
JamJackEvo
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: The Planet Earth
Wow, this guy completely ignores the flaws stated by others and charges into the flaws of other arguments which he can rebuke.

Selective, selective, dude.

100 arrows concentrated on one titan. Need 100,000 to defeat a hundred.

Choke point, you say? Well, let's go five years after the penetration of Wall Maria (FIVE years). Let's go with your plan and let the humans do that. They wait and wait and wait, stationed in their spots. No invasion for five years. Do you think they'll stay vigilant? Will the higher-ups keep thousands of human resources waste away in their posts 24/7, 7 days a week in anticipation for an attack that might not come for a long time or never at all? Then when they do attack... what does that mean for the archers? By then, the government must've relocated some, NOT ALL, of the archers so they can at least do some other menial task than sit around and do nothing all day, everyday. The titans begin pouring in, and no, you assume that the kick Mr. Colossal made was one titan in single file. Nope. That kick would've torn a big chunk out of the wall that it'd be more like 3 titans each. But let's go ahead with your "one titan" rule.

So they kill every titan that comes in. Kill and kill and kill and kill. Wasting arrows and wasting arrows and wasting arrows and wasting arrows. Until they have none left. And there are still titans pouring in from the hole. What do they do? Go down and retrieve the arrows in the danger zone? What? Plus, as mentioned before, the creation of so many arrows is a complete waste of valuable resources that could be used for other things like building more houses and stuff. And no, when you opined explosive arrows, you rendered your argument implausible. Explosive arrows explode! What then happens to the wood and metal? Do they miraculously stay intact for people to recover? Don't even think for a second that each arrows (even explosive!) will be shot accurately or that the archers in question are so skilled that they can pull off the feats you're describing (one second per arrow? Dahell?). Not all soldiers have talent in long-range, you know.

One other thing: How do you position 1000 archers in one spot? Oh and let's not forget that, if the humans go with your plan, they'd be stationing the majority of their archers on the wall, right? Because it's safe there and a 50 meter target down below is not so difficult for them, right (you mentioned before about the average distance of a shot arrow is in the 100 meter range or something)? What did the Mr. Colossal do after he kicked the gate? Oh right, he swiped his arm over the top of the wall! What does that make, oh say, a hundred or so archers dead.

EDIT: Sorry, if I came off a little snappy. Not a morning person...

Last edited by JamJackEvo; 2013-05-06 at 21:12. Reason: I was arguing like a child, so I added an apology.
JamJackEvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:29   Link #126
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Do you like straw man that much that you have to use it in every one of your arguments?
I don't think you know what "straw man" means.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Let's put aside regeneration for a second, is it reasonable to assume that arrow will deal damage just like blade does, since we have seen the effect of cannon fire and they do get injured by conventional weapons, while there are no reasonable assumption that can be made with holy water?
Because we can easily infer that using swords alone and not in pair evidently doesn't work. Therefore it is clear that simply damaging the titans doesn't work. You need to damage them in a certain way.
Else you could argue that it is possible to kill them using a single sword, which apparently isn't true.

Just because an arrow can logically damage them, it doesn't mean that it would kill them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Because the exact wording is doing severe damage such that they cannot regenerate fast enough, not it stops regeneration. There is a clear distinction here.
Now you are making stuff up.

exact wording:

"Severe damage here (nape of neck) will prevent regeneration, and the Titan will die."


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
And severe damage is not limited to cutting away a portion of their nape. All this is purely your words and not what is said.
Purely my words?

He says that you need to rend away their flesh, he shows that you need to rend away their flesh, they are trained to cut chunks of flesh away.
And you say this is just my words.

According to you they must do all that for fun and not for necessity.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske;4669085A
lot of arrows on the nape full fill the condition to kill the giant according to these definitions. It does severe damage that the titans cannot regenerate fast enough.
Now how do you get to the conclusion that the kind of damage the arrow can deal is a damage that the titans cannot regenerate fast enough?

In the only two cases that we know that it works, they are both instant damages. A cannonball straight to their nape, or a big enough chunk of flesh removed from their nape.

This follows logically. Only severe damage can prevent them from regenerating, if you deal anything short of "severe damage" they will regenerate. A single arrow will not deal "severe damage". You can throw a second arrow but by the time you throw that second arrow the damage of the first will be already regenerated, because it wasn't "severe damage".

Your only way to make it work with arrows is therefore to use enough of them at the same time to deal that severe damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske;4669085A
100 hundred arrows is far more substantial then slicing a chunk of flesh away.
Unless by "100 hundreds" you mean 10000 that's debatable. I think you'd need more than 100 arrows to deal a comparable damage.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske;4669085A
Surely the author is all knowing and never mistakes. No author ever does and there are never any plot holes to any story. Simply use your logic, if all it takes is to "render away" a chunk of flesh, why bother melee and not use explosive arrows even if you want to invalidate regular arrows. Why trade hundreds of thousands of death and lose 1/3 of your territory when you can hold the choke with archers using explosive arrows only, which "render away" their nape of neck even more effectively then blades.
Just how many times do I need to repeat that I'm not excluding that explosives will work?
They can, but they must cause severe damage all at once. Because else it's not severe damage, and it will be regenerated before you can land the second shot.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:38   Link #127
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
Wow, this guy completely ignores the flaws stated by others and charges into the flaws of other arguments which he can rebuke.

Selective, selective, dude.
Can you point what flaws you are referring? The ones that I giver proper rebuke for? Where I address every single point raised by every person?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
100 arrows concentrated on one titan. Need 100,000 to defeat a hundred.
Your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
Choke point, you say? Well, let's go five years after the penetration of Wall Maria (FIVE years). Let's go with your plan and let the humans do that. They wait and wait and wait, stationed in their spots. No invasion for five years. Do you think they'll stay vigilant? Will the higher-ups keep thousands of human resources waste away in their posts 24/7, 7 days a week in anticipation for an attack that might not come for a long time or never at all? Then when they do attack... what does that mean for the archers? By then, the government must've relocated some, NOT ALL, of the archers so they can at least do some other menial task than sit around and do nothing all day, everyday. The titans begin pouring in, and no, you assume that the kick Mr. Colossal made was one titan in single file. Nope. That kick would've torn a big chunk out of the wall that it'd be more like 3 titans each. But let's go ahead with your "one titan" rule.
The show stated exact size of the hole, it's 8 meters tall. Judging by the visual and how when one titans came out, there were no space around him to fit another, I'd say single file is exactly what it is. Now granted the Colossal titan can choose to make a wider hole but he didn't. He could choose to destroy entire section of wall too, but he also didn't do it. The gate guards were on duty as we saw. It isn't like having arm force be ready is a foreign concept to them. I mean we saw it in the show.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
So they kill every titan that comes in. Kill and kill and kill and kill. Wasting arrows and wasting arrows and wasting arrows and wasting arrows. Until they have none left. And there are still titans pouring in from the hole. What do they do? Go down and retrieve the arrows in the danger zone? What? Plus, as mentioned before, the creation of so many arrows is a complete waste of valuable resources that could be used for other things like building more houses and stuff. And no, when you opined explosive arrows, you rendered your argument implausible. Explosive arrows explode! What then happens to the wood and metal? Do they miraculously stay intact for people to recover? Don't even think for a second that each arrows (even explosive!) will be shot accurately or that the archers in question are so skilled that they can pull off the feats you're describing (one second per arrow? Dahell?). Not all soldiers have talent in long-range, you know.
With the population they have, supporting 1000 archers is too much? It looks like they have a much larger standing army then that. Did you forget they armed and sent out 250k people to retake Wall Maria? There is got to be a fairly sized military presence to arm 250000 people. How is killing titans wasting arrows while throwing life at meleeing titans not wasteful? What you think that there are unlimited number of titans that are surrounding the walls? Sooner or later the population near the wall will thin out and eventually no giants will be close by unless the entire population giants hangs out right outside below the wall, which is not what we saw from the perspective that was shown. So when battle is over, recover arrows is easy. Making arrow is also easy and cost far less then blades.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamJackEvo View Post
One other thing: How do you position 1000 archers in one spot? Oh and let's not forget that, if the humans go with your plan, they'd be stationing the majority of their archers on the wall, right? Because it's safe there and a 50 meter target down below is not so difficult for them, right (you mentioned before about the average distance of a shot arrow is in the 100 meter range or something)? What did the Mr. Colossal do after he kicked the gate? Oh right, he swiped his arm over the top of the wall! What does that make, oh say, a hundred or so archers dead.
Am I missing something? Why do you need to position them in one spot? It's a giant wall, you can fan out. Even if Mr Colossal swipe his arm over top of wall, and you lose 100 archers, that's far better exchange rate then losing all those lives meleeing and not being able to stop giants from getting in. Besides they could have taken time to construct additional tiers on the wall to allow archers station at different height. I mean great wall of china was build to host archers on top and inside with holes to shoot out from. Castles are designed with that in mind as well. Plenty of high towers can also be build through out the city to house archers, so it gives them more field of fire as well as deal with giants that some how do manage to get pass the choke.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:50   Link #128
articuzwolf
Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Orange Road
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Armor penetration with arrows isn't all about momentum. It's a combination of momentum and kinetic energy with KE being the deciding factor. That's why the armor piercing rounds actually weighs less then normal rounds and same reason why arrows will pierce plate armor while melee swing will not.

And btw, arrows travel around 50-60 m/s, not 5.
I already said it before, arrow advantage over normal blade under normal circumtances is covered by 3D maneuver gears and of course including kinetic energy (they're both moving for christ sake), and of course you don't forget that KE also have mass in it?. and what next? pressure, angle of arrival, impact, choice of material?
I keep it as simple as possible so it won't become a full blown study about system dynamics hence I only mentioned momentum.

you can't read part that the number is all assumption part there? I thought you were mad because people don't read your post throuroughly.

soldier speed using 3DMG aren't 5 as well, can be 50 or even more, 5 is just a number that I made up to prove a point what happen if 3DMG and arrow has the same speed
from we have seen so far, It can leap several buildings within second (eps 1,3,5), faster than a horse (eps 3), heck it might be even be faster than the arrow

you can argue that arrow is faster, but i doubt it's 50x faster than 3DMG to make up with minimum mass difference between those two
and worst part about arrow is it couldn't move directly to the target
__________________
articuzwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:51   Link #129
Warm Mist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Holy shit man, arrows are retarded. It's not even about if they can kill Titans or not, or how many you would need, it's about Titans not killing you.
Titans WILL kill you if you have literally zero mobility, they go fast, they can jump, use their arms, step on you, tear buildings down, turn around so you don't even have a clear target, and most importantly appear en masse so that you can't bring them down all at once.
There are even deviants who will dodge your arrows if they see them, let alone if they face you upfront and run at you.

The system they have is probably one of the best they could have implemented with their technology, and against this specific type of foe. You'll see good soldiers using the 3DMG very soon, and you'll realize that it can be extremely effective.
Warm Mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:56   Link #130
CJ_Walker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Los Angeles, California
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
How do you know arrows are not known to kill titan? No where is that information been revealed to us.
If you haven't read the manga then you wouldn't know. I'd suggest you read the manga before you go down this road, then you'd see that even IF they could kill titans with arrows, there's reasons why that are IN THE STORY that it wouldn't work against the titans.

you really need to stop now while you're ahead.

actually, you're not ahead at all.

so you need to just stop.

In fact, I'm gonna have to put you on my ignore list, you're that annoying.
CJ_Walker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 21:56   Link #131
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I don't think you know what "straw man" means.
A "Straw man" is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, which is what you are doing with your vampire and holy water examples.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Because we can easily infer that using swords alone and not in pair evidently doesn't work. Therefore it is clear that simply damaging the titans doesn't work. You need to damage them in a certain way.
Else you could argue that it is possible to kill them using a single sword, which apparently isn't true.

Just because an arrow can logically damage them, it doesn't mean that it would kill them.
What am saying here is not about killing them, it's about the logic of both blades and arrow can 'damage' the titans and there fore the assumption can be made with certain basis, where as holy water does not 'damage' titans and thus have no basis. Killing is irrelevant here.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now you are making stuff up.

exact wording:

"Severe damage here (nape of neck) will prevent regeneration, and the Titan will die."

Purely my words?

He says that you need to rend away their flesh, he shows that you need to rend away their flesh, they are trained to cut chunks of flesh away.
And you say this is just my words.

According to you they must do all that for fun and not for necessity.
When you read stuff, do you only focus on limited context without taking account for what is said before and after? The prevent here does not mean it stops regeneration. If you would read further: "If you can strike that vital spot, you will kill them before they have time to regenerate." The prevent here, base on the context of what is said, means you will deal more damage then the speed of regeneration, thus resulting in preventing regeneration, not that it actually stops the titan from regenerating. This is pretty clear from the original Japanese.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Now how do you get to the conclusion that the kind of damage the arrow can deal is a damage that the titans cannot regenerate fast enough?

In the only two cases that we know that it works, they are both instant damages. A cannonball straight to their nape, or a big enough chunk of flesh removed from their nape.

This follows logically. Only severe damage can prevent them from regenerating, if you deal anything short of "severe damage" they will regenerate. A single arrow will not deal "severe damage". You can throw a second arrow but by the time you throw that second arrow the damage of the first will be already regenerated, because it wasn't "severe damage".

Your only way to make it work with arrows is therefore to use enough of them at the same time to deal that severe damage.
How is arrow not instant damage? It's not like 100 arrows hit after a long period of time. It is hit at once. It's basically puncturing 100 holes in the nape instantly vs slicing a piece of flesh away. It's far more severe damage. If they can regenerate in the fraction of seconds between each arrow hit, which multiple will land at exact same time anyways, then it stands to reason they will regenerate the missing flesh instantly as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Unless by "100 hundreds" you mean 10000 that's debatable. I think you'd need more than 100 arrows to deal a comparable damage.
Typo, 100 arrows.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Just how many times do I need to repeat that I'm not excluding that explosives will work?
They can, but they must cause severe damage all at once. Because else it's not severe damage, and it will be regenerated before you can land the second shot.
Because you are arguing only blade works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ_Walker View Post
If you haven't read the manga then you wouldn't know. I'd suggest you read the manga before you go down this road, then you'd see that even IF they could kill titans with arrows, there's reasons why that are IN THE STORY that it wouldn't work against the titans.

you really need to stop now while you're ahead.

actually, you're not ahead at all.

so you need to just stop.
Well, since I am arguing base on existing info given to us by anime. There has not been a single manga reader that come out and say, hey, arrows doesn't work, manga will explain it later. All the argument is defending using blade purely because author said so.

As for I am ahead or not, what does that got to do with anything? This is a discussion thread about the world and technology and I am giving what I consider a good case on what combat tactics and technology would have made sense given what they are facing. I have yet to see a convincing counter argument except for asking me to accept things as they are and make no assumptions.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:22. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 22:08   Link #132
eplipswich
The Anime Maniac
 
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Singapore
Age: 27
Well, sorry to say, sagara, but at any rate, arrows are just not feasible. And seriously? Reuse the arrows after the fight? And when exactly will the fight end? You are aware that there are a lot of titans, right? Sure, there's only one hole created, but what makes you think another hole won't be created? You are basing the fact that titans are entering through one hole. Yeah, the colossal and armored titans can easily create multiple holes, for all we know.
__________________
Currently Watching:
Attack on Titan, Suisei no Gargantia, Ore no Imouto Season 2

I only watch highly recommended animes ~ ~
eplipswich is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 22:08   Link #133
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warm Mist View Post
Holy shit man, arrows are retarded. It's not even about if they can kill Titans or not, or how many you would need, it's about Titans not killing you.
Titans WILL kill you if you have literally zero mobility, they go fast, they can jump, use their arms, step on you, tear buildings down, turn around so you don't even have a clear target, and most importantly appear en masse so that you can't bring them down all at once.
There are even deviants who will dodge your arrows if they see them, let alone if they face you upfront and run at you.

The system they have is probably one of the best they could have implemented with their technology, and against this specific type of foe. You'll see good soldiers using the 3DMG very soon, and you'll realize that it can be extremely effective.
Why haven't any giants jumped up the 50 Meter wall in the past 100 years? You do realize that archers on are those walls right?

Deviants can see behind them?

The system is probably implemented because the author wanted to make a cool impression of how they combat the titans and drive into home how hopeless the situation is. It not because it actually is practical or effective.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eplipswich View Post
Well, sorry to say, sagara, but at any rate, arrows are just not feasible. And seriously? Reuse the arrows after the fight? And when exactly will the fight end? You are aware that there are a lot of titans, right? Sure, there's only one hole created, but what makes you think another hole won't be created? You are basing the fact that titans are entering through one hole. Yeah, the colossal and armored titans can easily create multiple holes, for all we know.
That's a good question, why don't they create more holes or even take down the entire wall? Given that those two are unknown and must have reasons doing what they did. We can only base on that to make decisions on what is the better strategy. Throwing many human lives and still lose the area due to breach or waste a lot of arrows and successful defend the breach and have time to seal it up.

There are a lot of titans but they are not all right outside. Sooner or later the ones nearby will all die off trying to come in. How does 250k people even attempt to retake lost territory if there were unlimited number of titans out there? There obviously sufficient space between them that there ones far enough that won't be invading since they are far off and does not see the hole.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:23. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 22:15   Link #134
Warm Mist
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Yes, put the archers up the 50M wall. Between the ones that will be killed by the gigantic fella, the crappy archers that are bound to be the overwhelming majority, and the non-existence of a meat-shield amongst your military, I assure you that the civilians will have the time of their lives.
Perhaps you could even use them as bait! Make them group on a corner so that all the titans go in the same direction, making the job easier for them (and well, the slow, uncomplete killing of the archers).

Two more things, but these are light-mild manga spoilers, so don't read if you don't want to:
Spoiler for Technology from the manga:
Warm Mist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 22:15   Link #135
articuzwolf
Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Orange Road
Age: 24
hi guys, I think we agree that people already explained enough to him.

I even gave him a dynamics + physics point of view why blade + 3DMG is more efficient than arrow and he's still convinced that arrow is better and no good argument yet

It's clear that he is just another case of Destined_Fate, old proverb said you can't teach an old dog

this maybe another example of that case

I'm done here and let him assume whatever he want
__________________
articuzwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 22:27   Link #136
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
A "Straw man" is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position, which is what you are doing with your vampire and holy water examples.
Not at all. I'm not implying that you said what you didn't say, therefore this doesn't qualify as "straw man".

The kind of argument I used is the same as the "Russel teapot", and it isn't fallacious at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
What am saying here is not about killing them, it's about the logic of both blades and arrow can 'damage' the titans and there fore the assumption can be made with certain basis, where as holy water does not 'damage' titans and thus have no basis. Killing is irrelevant here.
Let me resume the exchange we had about this issue:

You: Holy water is not known to kill unless you are a vampire. Arrows however is known to kill.
Me: Arrows are not known to kill a Titan anymore than blessed water is.
You: How do you know arrows are not known to kill titan? No where is that information been revealed to us.
Me: How do you know that blessed water is not known to kill titans? No where is that information been revealed to us.

Now you say that it never was about "killing" but about "damaging"?
I never used the example of the "blessed water" for anything that wasn't "killing them".
And I never denied that arrows can damage titans, I deny that they can kill them.
So no, sorry, killing is relevant here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
When you read stuff, do you only focus on limited context without taking account for what is said before and after? The prevent here does not mean it stops regeneration. If you would read further: "If you can strike that vital spot, you will kill them before they have time to regenerate." The prevent here, base on the context of what is said, means you will deal more damage then the speed of regeneration, thus resulting in preventing regeneration, not that it actually stops the titan from regenerating. This is pretty clear from the original Japanese.
This is so wrong that I don't even know where to start from.

1) You are the one who is ignoring the "rend the flesh" part as if it was the only thing irrelevant
2) The last sentence does not deny in any way the first. Severe damage prevents regeneration (because it kills them).
3) It logically follows that if they die they cannot regenerate. If severe damage kills them, then severe damage also prevents them from regenerating.
4) What you infer from the last sentence is illogical. What you should actually infer is that you need to kill them before they have the time to regenerate. That means the only thing that can beat their regeneration rate is instant death.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
How is arrow not instant damage? It's not like 100 arrows hit after a long period of time. It is hit at once. It's basically puncturing 100 holes in the nape instantly vs slicing a piece of flesh away. It's far more severe damage. If they can regenerate in the fraction of seconds between each arrow hit, which multiple will land at exact same time anyways, then it stands to reason they will regenerate the missing flesh instantly as well.
You think you can effectively make that many arrows hit the same spot all at the same time?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
Because you are arguing only blade works.
Then you assume I'm saying what I never said, and that is a straw man.
__________________

Jan-Poo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 22:34   Link #137
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
I already said it before, arrow advantage over normal blade under normal circumtances is covered by 3D maneuver gears and of course including kinetic energy (they're both moving for christ sake), and of course you don't forget that KE also have mass in it?. and what next? pressure, angle of arrival, impact, choice of material?
I keep it as simple as possible so it won't become a full blown study about system dynamics hence I only mentioned momentum.

you can't read part that the number is all assumption part there? I thought you were mad because people don't read your post throuroughly.

soldier speed using 3DMG aren't 5 as well, can be 50 or even more, 5 is just a number that I made up to prove a point what happen if 3DMG and arrow has the same speed
from we have seen so far, It can leap several buildings within second (eps 1,3,5), faster than a horse (eps 3), heck it might be even be faster than the arrow

you can argue that arrow is faster, but i doubt it's 50x faster than 3DMG to make up with minimum mass difference between those two
and worst part about arrow is it couldn't move directly to the target
I just disagree with speed of 3DMG is same as speed of arrow. I don't think it is even faster then horse, especially after seeing Eren maneuver around colossal titan. They are also not directly using their weight to crash into the target but more like spinning pass them and cut using two blades. Thus the mass in the calculation is also not accurate. V is also squared in the formula. Actual numbers can influence the outcome by a lot. You just happen to choose favorable number to support your argument.

And arrow will move directly to the target if you aim and shoot behind them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Not at all. I'm not implying that you said what you didn't say, therefore this doesn't qualify as "straw man".

The kind of argument I used is the same as the "Russel teapot", and it isn't fallacious at all.
I am using the logic this way:
Blade are weapons, arrows are weapons. Blade does dmg to Titans, but they regenerate, arrows does dmg to titans, but they regenerate. Blade carve out a chunk from nape of neck from titan is severe enough damage that outpaces titan regeneration, 100 arrows puncture holes through titan nape is severe enough damage that outpaces titan regeneration. Thus, both kills Titans.

You are false representing my position by comparing titan to vampire, using blades to beheading and arrows being just arrows when my position is that both blades and arrows are functionally killing the titan (i.e. beheading the vampire). There is straw man no 1.

Next, holy water.

My logic again is the same from first, Blade are weapons, arrows are weapons. Blade does dmg to Titans, but they regenerate, arrows does dmg to titans, but they regenerate. In order to make certain assumptions, you have to have basis to make them from. My assumption from arrows is based on the fact that arrows are in fact a weapon that can injure titan. Yet you use holy water when there are no basis that it can injure a titan. There is straw man no 2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Let me resume the exchange we had about this issue:

You: Holy water is not known to kill unless you are a vampire. Arrows however is known to kill.
Me: Arrows are not known to kill a Titan anymore than blessed water is.
You: How do you know arrows are not known to kill titan? No where is that information been revealed to us.
Me: How do you know that blessed water is not known to kill titans? No where is that information been revealed to us.

Now you say that it never was about "killing" but about "damaging"?
I never used the example of the "blessed water" for anything that wasn't "killing them".
And I never denied that arrows can damage titans, I deny that they can kill them.
So no, sorry, killing is relevant here.
In this specific instance, I am purely describing arrows and blade as weapons that have similar function and both can damage titans regardless whether they kill or not to establish a basis to make my assumption. This was not the killing argument. This was to make a point on why making an assumption with arrow make sense and holy water does not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
This is so wrong that I don't even know where to start from.

1) You are the one who is ignoring the "rend the flesh" part as if it was the only thing irrelevant
2) The last sentence does not deny in any way the first. Severe damage prevents regeneration (because it kills them).
3) It logically follows that if they die they cannot regenerate. If severe damage kills them, then severe damage also prevents them from regenerating.
4) What you infer from the last sentence is illogical. What you should actually infer is that you need to kill them before they have the time to regenerate. That means the only thing that can beat their regeneration rate is instant death.
1. I am not ignoring rending the flesh at all. I am taking the entire passage and telling you that prevent here is not stopping regeneration in the sense that titans can no longer regenerate but preventing it due to doing more damage then the speed of regeneration.
2. I never said it deny the first.
3. By that logic, arrows also kills them. If they die they cannot regenerate.
4. No what I inferring is clearly you need to do damage faster then they can regenerate. And it is not true that instant death is the only way to beat their regeneration since they do not have instant regeneration.

How about let's just see in future episodes that if this is the case. I am pretty sure that my interpretation is correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
You think you can effectively make that many arrows hit the same spot all at the same time?
It's a big spot. They are titans after all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Then you assume I'm saying what I never said, and that is a straw man.
So you agree explosive arrows work? Using blades is not the only way or even the effective way? They should have archers instead of training these people for suicide melee combat? That sure is not the sense I get from arguing with you.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:23. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 23:01   Link #138
articuzwolf
Wolf in Sheep's Clothing
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Orange Road
Age: 24
Quote:
Originally Posted by SagaraSouske View Post
I just disagree with speed of 3DMG is same as speed of arrow. I don't think it is even faster then horse, especially after seeing Eren maneuver around colossal titan. They are also not directly using their weight to crash into the target but more like spinning pass them and cut using two blades. Thus the mass in the calculation is also not accurate. V is also squared in the formula. Actual numbers can influence the outcome by a lot. You just happen to choose favorable number to support your argument.

And arrow will move directly to the target if you aim and shoot behind them.
yes the mass in calculation is not accurate, some soldier (reiner) weigh around 70kg + equipment + 2 blades and arrow definitely weigh less than or around 1 kg. but it only do me a favor not you. v^2 but happen for both arrow and human +3DMG, not to mentioned that's delta(v)^2 which also favour my conclusion since you can actually accelerate (faster) using 3DMG while you can only accelerate (down) while using arrow (thanks to gravity)

about 3DMG speed, this image is more than enough



eren movement against collosal isn't direct movement,

there are a lot of circling and turn around (the hand, neck, etc) so it is not comparable since arrow can't do that right?

not satisfied? I already put reference of other scenes that elaborate 3DMG speed in my previous post
__________________
articuzwolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-06, 23:03   Link #139
SagaraSouske
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
hi guys, I think we agree that people already explained enough to him.

I even gave him a dynamics + physics point of view why blade + 3DMG is more efficient than arrow and he's still convinced that arrow is better and no good argument yet

It's clear that he is just another case of Destined_Fate, old proverb said you can't teach an old dog

this maybe another example of that case

I'm done here and let him assume whatever he want
I gave you the same dynamics + physics view right back. All I said is I disagree with your numbers and point out there are things that needs to considered in how it is calculated.

Even if let's say you are right and blade is more efficient. What about human lives? what about the horrible exchange rate in order to kill a giant? Why would you not consider a tactic that does not throw bodies at titans even if it is somewhat less efficient? Are you even taking account for these factors or just wanted to prove that blade is more efficient then arrows?

Quote:
Originally Posted by articuzwolf View Post
yes the mass in calculation is not accurate, some soldier (reiner) weigh around 70kg + equipment + 2 blades and arrow definitely weigh less than or around 1 kg. but it only do me a favor not you. v^2 but happen for both arrow and human +3DMG, not to mentioned that's delta(v)^2 which also favour my conclusion since you can actually accelerate (faster) using 3DMG while you can only accelerate (down) while using arrow (thanks to gravity)

about 3DMG speed, this image is more than enough



eren movement against collosal isn't direct movement,

there are a lot of circling and turn around (the hand, neck, etc) so it is not comparable since arrow can't do that right?

not satisfied? I already put reference of other scenes that elaborate 3DMG speed in my previous post
That's launched from a horse. But sure, you are probably right after taking account for being able to launch from a horse or roof run that the KE of the blade can be higher then arrow.
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/images/as.icon/signaturepics/sigpic63006_2.gif

Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2013-05-06 at 23:23. Reason: Please use the "edit" button to add content to your post instead of double posting.
SagaraSouske is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-07, 01:35   Link #140
PzIVf3
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Somewhere at Earth
Did they try experimenting the cold H20 to see what reaction their heat body?
PzIVf3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 19:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.