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Old 2013-07-05, 07:46   Link #561
Kirarakim
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Okay this argument is getting silly. For one I know from both Enzo and Reckoner's posts on other threads that they don't think guys should only act by a set perimeter of masculinity.

I have a lot of issues with many of what male anime fans have said about Free!, Fujoshi, and women shows in general. I never felt anything sexist from any of Enzo's and Reckoner's comments. I think this is really just an issue of miscommunication.

However I disagree with them that the characters act like middle school girls or like any girls I know. Do I think they are realistic portrayals of guys? Well no I absolutely don't.

The guys in Free! are meant to appeal to female fantasies. I am not necessarily saying they are my fantasies lol but just like the girls in KON! (the oft cited example in this thread) appeal to male fantasies, it is the same for the guys in Free! And yes many of the same tropes appeal to both genders.

They are tropes not realistic portrayals of teenage boys or girls. They aren't meant to be.
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Old 2013-07-05, 08:05   Link #562
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by totoum View Post
Ok this might be none of my business but Reck should know, he did criticize those shows on this basis and yes he's been flamed and laughed at.

If there's someone who's not being a hypocrite by complaining about the way males are portrayed here it's him.
Well then I'm not talking about him, aren't I. Sorry if I came off as unreasonably insensitive toward him personally, but I don't think I can be reasonably expected to know his background with this sort of thing. As I said I was talking in general terms about an attitude I encounter very often (not just with this anime in particular but more strongly here, for obvious reasons).

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Few dared to admit they're watching it for what this new joke portrayal of girl attitudes makes them feel, the sentiment was "leave me and my Mugi ero doujins alone!", and that's a problem. As long as Free's defenders will produce these types of arguments, it will be hard to let go of them, because they're senseless. And saying "but male otaku gets to have the exact same shit" is not the right argument for it in context of the level of realistic portrayal.
Except this is not what I was talking about at all. This is already in the "different strokes for different folks" category. If someone has an issue with the unrealistic characterization in these types of shows in general and prefer more realistic characterization that's cool, but it's not like this invalidates the entertainment value of these shows for those who enjoy them. So you enjoy Type-A Show [show with realistic characterization and serious treatment of issues] and don't like Type-B Show [frivolous, light-hearted wishfulfillment show about fantasy fanservice characters]. That's cool, but I don't think this means that Type-A Show should perish in a fire or that those who like it for what it is are doing it wrong. These shows are not supposed to have realistic characters. Realism is not what they're here for.
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Old 2013-07-05, 08:54   Link #563
hoshino_crimsonwings
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Aside from the Justin Biebers in the show, I have to say the animation quality and music is rather good. The flames this is creating all over the internet is also rather amusing. Quite a promising show so far, all things concerned.
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Old 2013-07-05, 09:22   Link #564
DragoonKain3
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Originally Posted by GDiddy View Post
I'm shipping Gou with Makoto.
I personally haven't made up my mind yet between the three, though Makoto is a bit in the lead since he's the only one who actually remembers her.

But yeah, as long as it's not Rin or the glasses guy, I'm good.


Quote:
Haruka would date her if she was a mermaid.
So you mean the other 'mermaid' of the show, namely Rin? XD
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Old 2013-07-05, 09:31   Link #565
Parchevich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
To be fair, moe shows aimed at men are under constant scrutiny for what they are. It's not as if K-ON! and Key shows didn't receive their fair share of hate, from male and female critics alike. So what exactly exempts Free! from all this criticism? Just because it's fanservice aimed at women? Don't make me laugh.

The crux here is that it took an anime company who specialized in moe contents for males* to point out just how terrible some of the knee-jerk reactions are against fanservice shows in general. For KyoAni critics such as myself, one aspect why I enjoyed the first episode is exactly because it's now the other way around, but that in itself is entertainment to me. The entertaining thing here is, people who defend the show on grounds that the industry is being dominated by male-oriented content, and that makes the gratuous fanservice OK in this case (nevermind they are drooling over underaged boys, a common argument used against the moe pedo crowds), don't realize how utterly empty that argument is. The only thing it carries is a sentiment that fanservice is bad no matter who you aim it at. This is something I cannot agree with.

*and let's not start how K-ON! was popular with females, the first season was clearly aimed at male otaku
Oh, yeah, those moe shows receive a fair amount of scrutiny in certain places. But they are accepted among anime fans as a fact of life, and that criticism has no effect on those shows being made by the dozen. Furthermore, men get lots more fanservice in shows that are for a "general" audience, which can be extremely annoying if you dislike that sort of thing. As a Junji Itou fan, I can tell you the idiotic fanservice made the Gyo adaptation nearly unwatchable for me. Yeah, that's what a horror anime adaptation of a mangaka famous for never including any fanservice needs, tentacle rape teases and boobs!

Whereas I enjoy the hypocrisy of people who were OK with fanservice aimed at men suddenly puffing up indignantly at the exact same fanservice, down to the same tropes, aimed at women. It's amazing how someone can say, unselfconsciously, that "naked apron on a man doesn't work, KyoAni!" It's like it hasn't even occured to them that for once it's not all about them.

The only way you could make the argument that it's a level playing field, if that's what you're aiming at, is if women got as much fanservice as men, which they haven't. One show doesn't equal dozens and dozens of shows, sorry.

About the ogling of teenagers, I suggest you take that up with the industry. I wonder how you managed to be an anime fan at all, if you're so offended by it, considering that so much general anime includes high-school girls' fanservice and the drooling, unapologetic fans that come with it. Me, I've got no problem appreciating the aesthetic of male bodies moving, especially since the guys in question are 4 years younger than me and perfectly legal in my country. But still, I'll be cheering your noble efforts to shift the focus of anime makers, so I won't have to contend with 40-year-olds drooling over 15-year-olds'panty shots in a shounen series ever again. Good luck!
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Old 2013-07-05, 09:45   Link #566
Reckoner
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Thank you RRR, Totoum and Kirakim for defending my consistency . Appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I never said you liked it, I said you accepted the kind of things K-on does as a default, a fact of life. But when you see it from the "outside" (so to speak) suddenly you're uncomfortable with it, and expect others to take an issue with it.
Like said by the others, who said I was comfortable with it there either? I don't consider it a fact of life with things like K-ON! I take major issue with it there as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I don't agree with any of that, but anyway... Going by this logic K-on, but also many, many other shows geared toward male otaku are a complete joke portrayal of girls and women. What I've been trying to point out is that for some reason that's not an important issue - it's male fantasies aiming to appeal to men, and so it's regarded as the default modus operandi. If someone tried to criticize those shows on this basis they would get flamed and laughed at. (Especially if it was a woman, she'd be dismissed and mocked as a frothing feminist.) But when a light-hearted fanservice show geared toward women portrays male characters in a way that doesn't appeal to men (even though the show itself is not meant to appeal to men), it's suddenly an Issue that should be taken seriously because it concerns men and notions of masculinity and omg how dare they make a show that dismisses my needs and interests. (Also re: all the whining about "GAAAAAAYYYY" in certain shows.)
That's fine and all, but I do complain about it when it comes to women too. I posted such things in the Hentai Ouji thread last season. Even in shows I like such as Sakurasou I pointed out the less favorable elements (misogynistic undertones in the premise). So it didn't "suddenly" become an issue for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
So you like that sort of thing more than this sort of thing. Cool. Mind, I love Tsuritama, I like it a lot more than I'll ever like Free (that I don't even particularly like so far). But Free is not Tsuritama. This anime is a different genre and it wants to accomplish completely different things. You don't have to like it, but you just have to accept that it's not trying to make you like it. And that's completely OK.

Also, this is a light-hearted silly fanservice show about guys stripping at the drop of a hat and showing off their hot bodies and being all doujin fodders, and I can't help but feel it kind of hilarious that we're even having this argument.

End of story, as far as I'm concerned...
I understand what this show is going for. None of us were fooled. Doesn't mean I'm going to accept it. You and others can think whatever you want, I respect that difference in opinion. What I won't respect is when people try to invalidate my position based on some generalized notion of double standards that doesn't even pertain to me.
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Old 2013-07-05, 09:59   Link #567
kuromitsu
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>Reckoner

It would've made things a lot more easier for both of us if you had just made all this clear from the start. As I said above, I don't think it's reasonable to expect me to be aware of what goes on in threads I don't read.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reckoner View Post
I understand what this show is going for. None of us were fooled. Doesn't mean I'm going to accept it. You and others can think whatever you want, I respect that difference in opinion. What I won't respect is when people try to invalidate my position based on some generalized notion of double standards that doesn't even pertain to me.
Again, if the cap doesn't fit then tell me that instead of just saying you don't like K-on. Hell, I even wrote a little disclaimer in one of my posts that included "I'm not saying ... that all men/women have the same issues with everything and blah blah blah you get my point." Also, the double standard exists - if it's not applicable in your case that's great, but it doesn't mean it's stupid and dismissable.


>Parchevich
(Quietly applauding you, too. xD )
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:27   Link #568
cyth
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Parchevich View Post
It's amazing how someone can say, unselfconsciously, that "naked apron on a man doesn't work, KyoAni!" It's like it hasn't even occured to them that for once it's not all about them.
I can agree with that, but I think you're forgetting that this isn't the first female-oriented fanservice show out there. There are dozens of pure fanservice shows aimed at women (Karneval, Hakkenden, just to name the ones from the top of my head), even examples of general-appeal anime where female-oriented fanservice threatened characterization (Tiger & Bunny). I'd agree that the playing field isn't level in terms of numbers, but I'd also say there's not nearly enough outrage over the very existence of these shows as you seem to think. In fact, I'd venture to say that they are accepted as a fact of life, at least among the more moderate anime fan circles which I frequent in offline. What's special in this case is KyoAni, which is something I already discussed in my previous post.

Quote:
The only way you could make the argument that it's a level playing field, if that's what you're aiming at, is if women got as much fanservice as men, which they haven't. One show doesn't equal dozens and dozens of shows, sorry.
As such, this is complete bollocks. Again, I'm not saying the playing field is completely even, but I will go to defend people's right to criticize whatever they want no matter what the circumstances are. The terms you're offering are quite frankly being set up as a moving goal post. It's not enough that the industry already makes fanservice shows aimed at women, no, they have to be made in equal quantity and accepted as a way of life the way male-oriented fanservice shows are? Don't you see how this restricts criticism the exact same way when otaku recite their standard lines of defense, saying things like "it's a popular show, it sold well, you just shut up." The female fanbase will get to have the exact same opportunity with Free!, to denounce any criticism the exact same way. The way male otaku defend their shows most of the time is not something I'd recommend. But if you think you need protective layers before any criticism can actually happen, then I guess you are no better than them.

Quote:
Me, I've got no problem appreciating the aesthetic of male bodies moving
This! This is the type of argument to make. I enjoyed the first episode for also this exact same reason, and I'm male and straight and have a girlfriend (I hate putting up disclaimers, but whatever). So why the need to level out the playing field? You make perfectly fine arguments already.
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Old 2013-07-05, 10:49   Link #569
germanturkey
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so, where are all them gender bent pictures?... who wants to scour pixiv?
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Old 2013-07-05, 11:44   Link #570
Parchevich
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyth View Post
I can agree with that, but I think you're forgetting that this isn't the first female-oriented fanservice show out there. There are dozens of pure fanservice shows aimed at women (Karneval, Hakkenden, just to name the ones from the top of my head), even examples of general-appeal anime where female-oriented fanservice threatened characterization (Tiger & Bunny). I'd agree that the playing field isn't level in terms of numbers, but I'd also say there's not nearly enough outrage over the very existence of these shows as you seem to think. In fact, I'd venture to say that they are accepted as a fact of life, at least among the more moderate anime fan circles which I frequent in offline. What's special in this case is KyoAni, which is something I already discussed in my previous post.
I agree that Free! is indeed not the first anime to court fujoshi, though I'd argue Karneval is not a fanservice-heavy show (it reads to me like a kiddie show, even though I'm told it's supposed to be josei). As you say, KyoAni made Free! impossible for a certain brand of otaku to avoid. But, to me Free! is similar to moe shows the same way Hakkenden is similar to Sword Art Online, for example. Hakkenden and SAO have strong enough plot that someone who isn't in it for the fanservice can enjoy, while Free! and the moe shows the fanservice is at least as important as the slice-of-life story.

I also agree that the type of shows like Hakkenden, as well as otome shows, are mostly accepted. Male fans, though, aren't used to there being much fanservice for women outside of such niche shows. For example, there was much uproar about K, with men complaining that they couldn't enjoy their catgirl, teenaged pantyshots (again!), loli and short-skirted megane chick because the show also contained fujoshi fanservice. They not only felt entitled to fanservice for men, they felt offended that women were getting fanservice as well! Women were, to their minds, encroaching on <i>their</i> territory. It's the same now with KyoAni, which had previously only pandered to men, now catering to women. So the surface reason of the vitriol is because fanservice for women is becoming a little more mainstream, but the root of it is some men's belief that women aren't entitled to fanservice the way men are.

Quote:
As such, this is complete bollocks. Again, I'm not saying the playing field is completely even, but I will go to defend people's right to criticize whatever they want no matter what the circumstances are.
Don't misunderstand, I don't intend to use any of what I said above to shield Free! from criticism. I just think it's telling that Free! is getting this much flack for stuff that passes relatively unnoticed in anime for men. However, nitpicking about why there is so much fanservice in a fanservice anime isn't criticism. It's missing the point of the show.

Quote:
This! This is the type of argument to make. I enjoyed the first episode for also this exact same reason, and I'm male and straight and have a girlfriend (I hate putting up disclaimers, but whatever). So why the need to level out the playing field? You make perfectly fine arguments already.
Lol, thank you for reassuring me I make perfectly fine arguments, but I already knew that.

>Kuromitsu
I've been enjoying your posts as well
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Old 2013-07-05, 11:53   Link #571
DragoonKain3
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The way I see it is this: Group A makes criticism about the show (be it moeness, fan service, or what not) while Group B defends why Group A doesn't do the same with male-oriented shows. I think the problem with Group B is automatically thinking that Group A does NOT do the same with male oriented shows, when THAT is a very VERY faulty assumption to make (well at least for this criticism heavy forum; can't speak about other forums though XD)

Me? All I can say to both groups is "Why so serious?" Then again just give me even the remote possibility of opposite gender osananjimi ending up together and the show is almost automatically alright in my book, so yeah...
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Old 2013-07-05, 12:13   Link #572
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Me? All I can say to both groups is "Why so serious?"
Yeah, I kind of have to agree.

While I respect where the more critical viewers are coming from, I also have to wonder just what they were expecting with this show. It's a fujoshi-focused show by KyoAni, and it comes with everything that entails.

Were some people actually expecting this to be The Legend of the Galactic Swimmers?
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Old 2013-07-05, 12:38   Link #573
Skane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Yeah, I kind of have to agree.

While I respect where the more critical viewers are coming from, I also have to wonder just what they were expecting with this show. It's a fujoshi-focused show by KyoAni, and it comes with everything that entails.

Were some people actually expecting this to be The Legend of the Galactic Swimmers?
You just made me think of them in swimmer trunks, and damn near died from choking on my cola.
.
.
.
.
Good show.
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Old 2013-07-05, 12:49   Link #574
kuromitsu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Were some people actually expecting this to be The Legend of the Galactic Swimmers?
I used to have a doujinshi like that. Well, it was about Reinhard & Gang hanging out at some tropical resort and there was swimming and diving (more importantly, shots of the characters in swimming gear). Unfortunately I lost it during a moving along with my other LoGH doujins. :/
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Old 2013-07-05, 12:53   Link #575
Dark Wing
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Were some people actually expecting this to be The Legend of the Galactic Swimmers?
I'm actually hoping for something along the lines of Prince of Swimming.
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Old 2013-07-05, 12:56   Link #576
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
You just made me think of them in swimmer trunks, and damn near died from choking on my cola.
.
.
.
.
Good show.
I bet that Yang Wenli would have a killer backstroke.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I used to have a doujinshi like that. Well, it was about Reinhard & Gang hanging out at some tropical resort and there was swimming and diving (more importantly, shots of the characters in swimming gear). Unfortunately I lost it during a moving along with my other LoGH doujins. :/
It's pretty hilarious that there was actually a doujinshi like that.


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Originally Posted by Dark Wing View Post
I'm actually hoping for something along the lines of Prince of Swimming.
I haven't watched Prince of Tennis, so I can't comment much on that. How would you describe Prince of Tennis?
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Old 2013-07-05, 13:06   Link #577
Skane
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
~~ I haven't watched Prince of Tennis, so I can't comment much on that. How would you describe Prince of Tennis?
Completely over the top.

It's something like Gintama... but on a more "realism" scale. Everybody treats Tennis as a matter of life or death, and to an outsider(eg, us) it will seem completely batshit insane at times, but it is precisely that level of absurdity that gives it its charm.

Cheers.
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Old 2013-07-05, 13:15   Link #578
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuromitsu View Post
I used to have a doujinshi like that. Well, it was about Reinhard & Gang hanging out at some tropical resort and there was swimming and diving (more importantly, shots of the characters in swimming gear). Unfortunately I lost it during a moving along with my other LoGH doujins. :/
I have no interest in doujin but I would so buy this.
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Old 2013-07-05, 13:16   Link #579
Dark Wing
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Exactly what Skane just said. It seems to start off as your typical sports anime/manga series then then everyone starts developing superhuman tennis abilities. It was a great ride I'll tell you that.
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Old 2013-07-05, 13:24   Link #580
Kismet-chan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
Okay this argument is getting silly. For one I know from both Enzo and Reckoner's posts on other threads that they don't think guys should only act by a set perimeter of masculinity.

I have a lot of issues with many of what male anime fans have said about Free!, Fujoshi, and women shows in general. I never felt anything sexist from any of Enzo's and Reckoner's comments. I think this is really just an issue of miscommunication.

However I disagree with them that the characters act like middle school girls or like any girls I know. Do I think they are realistic portrayals of guys? Well no I absolutely don't.

The guys in Free! are meant to appeal to female fantasies. I am not necessarily saying they are my fantasies lol but just like the girls in KON! (the oft cited example in this thread) appeal to male fantasies, it is the same for the guys in Free! And yes many of the same tropes appeal to both genders.

They are tropes not realistic portrayals of teenage boys or girls. They aren't meant to be.
Often times I prefer to keep out of discussions like the one going on in this thread, but Kirarakim often puts my exact thoughts out there for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
While I respect where the more critical viewers are coming from, I also have to wonder just what they were expecting with this show. It's a fujoshi-focused show by KyoAni, and it comes with everything that entails.

Were some people actually expecting this to be The Legend of the Galactic Swimmers?
^This.
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