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View Poll Results: Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 4 Rating
Perfect 10 24 26.09%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 39 42.39%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 19 20.65%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 7.61%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 3.26%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 92. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-04-30, 14:51   Link #161
Kirarakim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
There's nothing inherently wrong with a character being archetype. Many extremely popular, and even iconic, characters are archetypes.
I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with it but I do think Gen's character suffer for this. They never fully grow as characters or feel like real people but remain set as archetypes.

His story strengths are usually not in character development to me. His plot and themes drive the characters. I see this story doing something different where this is much more a character piece.

Now I usually prefer the latter but it is a testament to Gen's writing skills that I still enjoy his work overall even though he usually does it in the former way



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So I disagree with your criticism of Gen using characters like this. And the fact is that even in real life there are people who lean more towards idealism, and there are people who lean more towards pragmatism. I know some very idealistic people, and I know some very pragmatic people.

I think we are talking about something different here.

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There's no rule saying that it can't be both. Consider some of Shakespeare's works.
Yes but Gen usually falters for me a bit in the character area.

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Yes, but much of that will come down to Ledo weighing his very logic/pragmatic-based soldier training/conditioning against what he's learning from Gargantia.

The difference here is that the conflict between two philosophically opposed sides gets internalized within one character. Ledo hence is not thesis or antithesis - He will be the one to try to arrive at a good synthesis, I think. This will indeed make him different from Gen's previous anime characters, imo.
I do see a conflict in Ledo's mind but I feel it is more because he is experiencing something completely different than he knew before.

He said himself I don't question anything, well now he is asked to question everything. If anything to me it is not necessarily important to realize there is a right answer but maybe to realize there is more than one answer.

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He openly disagrees with it, though. And he offers arguments against their approach. And Bebel did show sympathy towards Ledo - It's clear that Bebel considers Ledo's space society a rough place to be. Yes, he challenges some of the pragmatic assumptions of Ledo's world. But in arguing why he thinks he is worthy, he is by extension showing where the thinking of the Galactic Alliance may be wrong.
Disagreeing is not the same as preaching. I disagree too but I wouldn't call myself idealistic.

And considering the situation I think Bebel responded the only way he could. Ledo was telling him my society sees you as useless and he was saying I don't see myself that way. If anything I would say Bebel was being just as pragmatic in his response to Ledo.



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I didn't have any problems with the thing about the pirates. Many people didn't.
Well I know there were people who didn't have problems with it but it was a hotly contested topic last week. So I wasn't saying everyone had problems, just that people had issues with it.

Although I don't think they were being all that idealistic there either. I don't think it was just about "not killing" but more about trying to avoid something that could bring further conflict.

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You can excuse a person for being a product of his society while still disliking that society that he comes from. It's pretty clear to me that Amy and Bebel would not be fans of the Galactic Alliance.
Maybe not but so far Amy and Bebel haven't been preaching against Avalon.

But who knows what will come later.
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Old 2013-04-30, 15:11   Link #162
Reckoner
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with it but I do think Gen's character suffer for this. They never fully grow as characters or feel like real people but remain set as archetypes.

His story strengths are usually not in character development to me. His plot and themes drive the characters. I see this story doing something different where this is much more a character piece.

Now I usually prefer the latter but it is a testament to Gen's writing skills that I still enjoy his work overall even though he usually does it in the former way
I don't understand how you could possibly describe the characters in Gen works like this.

Psycho-Pass Gino and Akane definitely grew over the course of the series.

Fate/Zero we had multiple characters undergo serious growth (Kotomine, Saber, Waver, etc.).

Madoka's whole cast pretty much had plenty of growth.

Characters are actually one of Gen's biggest strengths as a writer honestly. I think thematic clarity is one of his weaker points. He has lots of interesting ideas in his works, but doesn't necessarily stick to one point completely. Exception being Fate/Zero because he had set themes to work with courtesy of Nasu from Fate/Stay Night.
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Old 2013-04-30, 15:12   Link #163
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
Come on, it's pretty clear that the Gargantians aren't exactly a well-to-do people of plenty. They're collecting rainwater, after all. That's hardly what people with abundant resources/wealth would ever bother doing.

So for them, with their obviously limited resources, to choose to use some of them to clothe, feed, and take care of a bed-ridden boy, does not ring hollow to me at all.
They aren't rich, but my point is, their continued existence isn't threatened. Their "bad guys" are pirates with whom they had some kind of arrangement.

And the point of rainwater is, they don't seem to have spent much thought on how to effectively collect it, so how precious can it really be?

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There's a difference between using just enough violence to chase off aggressors, and eliminating aggressors totally.
And they looked just about ready to use the latter on Ledo.


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They appear to place a high value on each individual human life, even the lives of pirates. That clearly is a moral contrast between them and the Galactic Alliance.

They also have the principle of "Give fresh water to the one who catches the fish." So they believe in justly rewarding people who contribute to the common good.
Considering Ledo's accomplishment against the bill they send him for one destroyed hangar, I'd argue against the "justly".
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Old 2013-04-30, 15:16   Link #164
Triple_R
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kirarakim View Post
I am not necessarily saying there is anything wrong with it but I do think Gen's character suffer for this. They never fully grow as characters or feel like real people but remain set as archetypes.
Well, these are the Gen characters that I listed as fulfilling one of the two conflicting archetype roles - Madoka, Kyubey, Sayaka, Kyouko, Akane, Gino, and Sybil (as a collective).

I'll grant you that Kyubey and Sybil are pretty static, but all the rest showed considerable character growth and development, imo. They pretty much felt like real people to me.

If you disagree, that's fine, but I would be curious to know why. This isn't really the place for it, though, so if you disagree with me on these Gen characters, please bring it up to me in PM. It could be an interesting discussion.


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His story strengths are usually not in character development to me. His plot and themes drive the characters. I see this story doing something different where this is much more a character piece.
Well, I do think that this anime is more character-driven than Madoka Magica or Psycho-Pass were. So I agree with you there. I do see some of the same philosophical conflicts arising, though.


Quote:
I do see a conflict in Ledo's mind but I feel it is more because he is experiencing something completely different than he knew before.
I see a possibility here - Perhaps Gen wanted a sort of tabula rasa character that could work well as a character that has to mediate between two opposing sides of a philosophical conflict.

Ledo serves very well as such a character due to his knowledge/experience limitations prior to landing on Earth.

So instead of seeing two conflicting sides arguing/battling it out, we see a person weighing the two sides in his own mind.

I think it could be very interesting to see this play out. So I do see promise here.


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He said himself I don't question anything, well now he is asked to question everything.
Exactly. Quite possibly the ideal tabula rasa character. Someone with minimal predisposed biases.


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Disagreeing is not the same as preaching. I disagree too but I wouldn't call myself idealistic.
To be fair, "idealistic" might be too strong of a word, at least in some cases. Let's just say that Gen picks one side that thinks that moral considerations are valid and important considerations, and an opposing side that is pragmatic to the point that moral considerations often/typically don't even factor into things.


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And considering the situation I think Bebel responded the only way he could. Ledo was telling him my society sees you as useless and he was saying I don't see myself that way. If anything I would say Bebel was being just as pragmatic in his response to Ledo.
I disagree. Bebel was clearly appealing to emotion ("I need to be there for my sister"), imo.


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Although I don't think they were being all that idealistic there either. I don't think it was just about "not killing" but more about trying to avoid something that could bring further conflict.
And why do they want to avoid further conflict? Because they value human lives - Both their own, and that of the pirates.


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Maybe not but so far Amy and Bebel haven't been preaching against Avalon.
Why would you feel compelled to say much of anything about some far-off empire that you know next to nothing about and that you may well never come in contact with?

This isn't like, say, a Russian defecting to America circa 1980. This isn't a pressing conflict.

Let's see what the Gargantians have to say if it ever becomes a pressing conflict though...
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Old 2013-04-30, 15:35   Link #165
Kirarakim
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Triple R and Reckoner: Saying Gen's characters don't change at all would of course be false but again I feel their change is more in relation to their changes in the archetype roles.

I don't feel Gen's stories are about the character's growth themselves. But yes maybe this should be taken to another discussion.

I think Waver is kind of an exception to this though.

Quote:
Well, I do think that this anime is more character-driven than Madoka Magica or Psycho-Pass were. So I agree with you there. I do see some of the same philosophical conflicts arising, though.
You might be right

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I disagree. Bebel was clearly appealing to emotion ("I need to be there for my sister"), imo.
Well yes but again how else should he have responded. Should he have been like "yep I am useless". I can understand why he doesn't see himself as useless.

Anyways what I am trying to say was the conversation didn't come across as "your way is bad, my way is right"

Bebel didn't get upset at what Ledo said (although I think he was momentarily shocked) he was able to give an answer to Ledo. I don't think I am useless so I am not. I don't think it really matters if Bebel was looking at it from an emotional or practical standpoint. Again to me it was more about opening Ledo's world a bit.



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Let's see what the Gargantians have to say if it ever becomes a pressing conflict though...
Well I suppose I could see Avalon becoming a conflict if they directly oppose Gargantia in some way and Ledo has to make a choice that way.

edit: And to explain further what I mean the dystopian elements of Avalon are not necessarily anything we haven't seen many times before. So I think trying to argue against them seems pointless. I don't think that is the theme (practicality vs idealism) is what Gen is necessarily going for here. Ledo might discover what he learned in Avalon is wrong but that's not what I think we as the audience are supposed to get from this story. I think Ledo's experiences are more metaphorical for something else.
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Old 2013-04-30, 16:11   Link #166
Triple_R
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Kirarakim: I don't think that Gen is saying that the emotionally-driven moral-considering side is always right. I don't think he's discounting that the logic-driven ruthless pragmatist side has some valid points on their side of the discussion as well. Actually, I think that's why Gen's works lacks thematic clarity, as Reckoner pointed out. I think it's because Gen himself hasn't come to a strong personal stand here. That's probably exactly why this philosophical conflict appears to fascinate him. I think he keeps coming back to it because he views it as a compelling puzzle to grapple with.


That's why Bebel isn't simply saying "The Galactic Alliance is wrong. Wrong I tell you!" Because I think Gen is aiming for something more nuanced here (also because it wouldn't suit Bebel's soft-spoken character, really).

I actually think this could be the work where Gen takes a clear thematic stance on the two conflicting sides. And that's why I really like what I see with Ledo, as I think he could be a Mediator that brings a synthesis out of the thesis and antithesis.
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Old 2013-04-30, 17:32   Link #167
Kirarakim
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I just don't think the point of the story is debating between these two systems.

And while Avalon might not be all bad (the people who were fighting with Ledo don't seem bad at all) it's hard to justify killing people because they are not well.

I don't think the story will try to justify the other side as in I don't think that was Gen's point with this episode.

As for Gen's themes even if he doesn't always give an answer I am largely fine with how he presents them but more so in Madoka & Fate Zero than Psychopass.
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Old 2013-04-30, 20:46   Link #168
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Yeah, I can't really go and judge the system with such a limited look at it. If they are fighting for their very survival out there, it's not surprising extreme measures are being taken. Though I do wonder with Bevel what the Alliance will do if they manage to win this conflict. Can they simply transition out of the way they've been living for who knows how long? An extreme threat is a good catalyst for change, but not having that threat might not be as good a catalyst.

Either way it's good for Ledo to get to experience another culture that doesn't have to exist the way the Alliance does.
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Old 2013-04-30, 22:57   Link #169
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
And they looked just about ready to use the latter on Ledo.
Although "getting rid" of him was one of the suggestions, they were probably just exploring all possible options, in the end they just decided to wait and see.

They don't look like the type of people who would use poison in an act of deceit so I wondered how they would actually get rid of him. One possibility is trying to shoo him away or asking him to just leave. Then he'd just join the pirates and they'd end up fucked.
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Old 2013-05-01, 00:15   Link #170
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Other than the blonde guy who no one is listening to , who else is suggesting getting rid of Ledo?
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Old 2013-05-01, 01:49   Link #171
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The Gargantian's being nice and forgiving to the pirates isn't simply blind idealism: Resources are strapped worldwide an NO ONE wants an escalating war that wastes resources. If they did have enough resources? Then yeah, maybe the Gargantian's would attack the pirates. But they don't and their best gear is coated in rust, so I get the feeling neither side wants conflict because they know they'll all end up being boned if they do win in the end because they wasted too much time and resources fighting.

Rackage seems to be an exception, given her "Ax Crazy" nature.
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Old 2013-05-01, 03:12   Link #172
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One thing's for sure... that kid is wise beyond his years. I'd assume that his heart condition has probably put him in a life-threatening condition before to give him such a worldview.

It also bring a very existential dilemma for Ledo...
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Old 2013-05-01, 03:19   Link #173
Anh_Minh
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They'd need to spend a lot less in defense and pirate tributes if the pirates were properly afraid of the authorities instead of the other way around.
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Old 2013-05-01, 03:51   Link #174
Eratas123
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They'd need to spend a lot less in defense and pirate tributes if the pirates were properly afraid of the authorities instead of the other way around.
Its not so much tribute, really. If the Gargantian's prove "Look, we have more guns than you. You really wanna try this?", then the pirates back off. Again, Rackage seems to be the exception to this rule since she's so unhinged. She was enjoying the chance to fight.

And besides, they were threatening Gargantia; a single fleet. What would happen if the pirates pissed off all the fleets? Something tells me they wouldn't be much of a threat then.
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Old 2013-05-01, 04:48   Link #175
Anh_Minh
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Its not so much tribute, really. If the Gargantian's prove "Look, we have more guns than you. You really wanna try this?", then the pirates back off. Again, Rackage seems to be the exception to this rule since she's so unhinged. She was enjoying the chance to fight.

And besides, they were threatening Gargantia; a single fleet. What would happen if the pirates pissed off all the fleets? Something tells me they wouldn't be much of a threat then.
And yet Bellows explain exactly the opposite - they must not piss off the pirates because the pirates are so scary. The leaders of Gargantia agree with that sentiment and are all too willing to bend over and spread them. The only reason it didn't happen exactly like that is that Ledo didn't get the memo and pissed the pirates off in a way that can't be apologized over.

Rackage isn't the exception. She's the one that unites the pirates to punish the fleets that dare to resist. And till Ledo arrived, it's worked for her.
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Old 2013-05-01, 05:54   Link #176
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And yet Bellows explain exactly the opposite - they must not piss off the pirates because the pirates are so scary. The leaders of Gargantia agree with that sentiment and are all too willing to bend over and spread them. The only reason it didn't happen exactly like that is that Ledo didn't get the memo and pissed the pirates off in a way that can't be apologized over.

Rackage isn't the exception. She's the one that unites the pirates to punish the fleets that dare to resist. And till Ledo arrived, it's worked for her.
The way I see it is how Japanese used to think of war prior to and during WWII.

War to Imperial Japan is another form of negotiation. When Japan won the Russo-Japanese War they believed they were equal to the Western powers.

Japan got an oil embargo from the US because of the occupation of China and their excursiveness. Without oil Japan's industry and war machine would halt.

So Japan thought of this idea to bring the US into a negotiation advantageous to them by initiating a war and at the same time increasing their occupied territory thus be a supreme power in the Asia Pacific.

Showing the US and its allies it is not advantageous to them fight a war with Japan while they themselves are occupied dealing with Germany and Italy.

To put it plainly Japan grossly overestimated their advantage and underestimated the US industrial might. Also they bet wrongly on Germany winning the European theatre.

Even when they were losing they adhered to the Decisive Battle Doctrine that Japan would get a better deal in peace negotiation even after defeat. The mere possibility of unconditional surrender was not acceptable until the US showed the H-bombs.

While not escalating a conflict is smart Gargantians are disillusioned in thinking pirates would be rational like them. Indeed Rackage will be back after the beating she got.

They are so set in their ways that they could not wrap their minds an alliance with Ledo would be very beneficial for them or he has the capability of wiping both them and the pirates or anybody else on Earth.
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Old 2013-05-01, 06:09   Link #177
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Sorry 4 the lenguage, i'm new i'm italian XD

The episode 4 was beautiful. The main protagonist of the episode is that Ledo deprived of his life purpose or "take orders" tries to spend time looking for the meaning of Gargantia. In fact Ledo begins to wonder just when no longer un'obbiettivo, purpose, and I really liked it a phrase that is said in this episode that is "live = remain pending orders"

The episode exposes the multiplicity of external and internal Gargantia, we see both the inhabitants, structures, some internal policies and ways of living, but we also and above all the moral within the Gargantia very different from the cold policy of the alliance which comes Ledo. (I will not open parentheses or controversy of who knows what kind, but I'm curious to see if the fleet Gargantia also has some religious belief because if Council does not, really, I am standing on a chair and I'll kill myself of applause XD)

The flute part, gave me tears in his eyes because even in its "trivial issue" (the classic stereotype of a boy soldier who does not know what a family), the episode manages to transport you and tell all in a very discourse with a sparkling direction and in fact I repeat, just started playing the flute came to my shining eyes

Beautiful episode.

PS: I would recommend Ledo read some of Freud's book if they were ;D

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-05-01, 07:47   Link #178
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Rackage seems to be an exception, given her "Ax Crazy" nature.
"Rackage" Didn't want a war either, she only wanted to punish them and make them understand who is the boss again.

The pirates she commands have no interest in seriously damaging the fleet or to keep them focused on a long standing war. That would be for them one less cow to milk.
They need them to remain relatively at peace and focus on salvaging goods, valuable and technology from the bottom of the sea so that they can then reap part of the fruits of their efforts.

Which is why Rackage decided to aim for the commander of the Gargantia. Her objective was clear, she wanted to kill him to set an example so that the next person in command would think twice before messing with her and her pirates.

The commander was well aware of that, and that's why he told the others to leave him alone. After his death Rackage would have simply retreated, perhaps looting a bit as a collateral for the expenses she sustained, but otherwise leaving the Gargantia fully operational.


However the situation has probably changed. Depending on how Rackage reacted to that defeat she might either decide to accept the superiority of Gargantia and steer clear from them or decide that it has become something personal and plot a way to destroy them or make them miserable to get her revenge.


It all comes to this. As long as it is just business the pirates will never try to seriously damage the Gargantia. Make them sworn enemies and a real war will ensue.
Until this point for years the Gargantia always tried to avoid a war at all costs, because it is clear that they would have all been exterminated if that happened.
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Old 2013-05-01, 07:50   Link #179
orpheus2
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Looks like Ledo will now have to think what to do now after all the fighting is done. Maybe he should just stay with the Gargantians. After all, they seem to have a more fulfilling life when compared to the Alliance.
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Old 2013-05-01, 08:34   Link #180
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I just hope there's not a surprise death scene that pops up.
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