AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2013-05-04, 16:15   Link #21
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
So 1: He's human and 2: He shoots an enemy, big whoop.

I always thought people hated him cos he's communist or something.
If that's all there was to it, Yamato would be equally hated for also having a socio-political philosophy just as extreme.

1: The "I'm human" excuse does not justify his actions. A celebrity in rehab could relapse into his/her drug addiction for the 4th time, or the leader of a charity organization could embezzle all the funds for himself. The fact that they're still "human" with goals driven by self-interest does not make what they do any better.
He's supposed to be a leader in charge of changing the world.

2: This was not even in the heat of battle. It was not self-defense; the target did not attack him, nor did she plan to attack him. There's no way around the fact that it was murder.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 17:18   Link #22
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Spoiler for Late Game Stuff:
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 17:51   Link #23
Blizzard
KIRABOSHI☆!!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 22
It's basically "How dare Hotsuin Yamato try to save the humanity and install his own agenda. I will defeat the Septentrions while effectively murdering and sabotaging everyone else and create MY ideal world. Because obviously he's evil and I'm holy pure righteous."
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 18:22   Link #24
Angelic Cross
Soul-eating Librarian
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Within the stacks. . .waiting to devour you. . .
Another point against Ronaldo is that he doesn't really seem to think too far beyond the present. He never has any plans beyond, "screw JPs and Yamato Hotsuin" over in the game. I don't even recall any dialogue from him that mentions wanting a return to normalcy like the other characters. The only time he actually has a plan is when he hears about Yamato's own plans. Compare this with Daichi and the MC; the former at least has an option that isn't just a carbon copy of Yamato's plan (except replace with his own ideology), and the latter winds up being the one to think up the Kingmaker route.

For an example here in the anime, the fact that, despite having actually been in JPs and knowing about what was coming and
Spoiler for The state of the world:
he still has his peons distribute supplies willy nilly. This is not someone I want leading me.
Angelic Cross is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 19:16   Link #25
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
I don't recall Ronaldo having a plan either. He's entirely focused on fighting Yamato and that's it. Screw everything else or if he makes things worse.

You're also right that he has no idea what he's doing and just handing out free stuff doesn't mean said free stuff is being used the most effectively or getting to those that need supplies the most or to those that will actually make a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
It's basically "How dare Hotsuin Yamato try to save the humanity and install his own agenda. I will defeat the Septentrions while effectively murdering and sabotaging everyone else and create MY ideal world. Because obviously he's evil and I'm holy pure righteous."
Yes.

That's Ronaldo to a dot and the Anime hasn't done anything to change that.

He sees Yamato as evil and himself as a "Hero" and ignores everything he does because he's a "Hero" so it "has" to be the right thing to do!

Ugh.

Hate him.

Murdering Makoto is just at the tip of his trainwreck.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 20:11   Link #26
Blizzard
KIRABOSHI☆!!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 22
If I'm remembering the game version of day 3 right with Jungo and Daichi and another video, Ronaldo isn't that much of a leader either. For the most part, he's just taking advantage of the needs and frustrations of people to set them against JPs like a pack of rabid dogs instead of actually supporting or inspiring them. BTW did he ever take responsibility for that one or what since he's the one who pretty much started it? Seriously, his so called equality never really seems to stretch to those who disagree with him.

Honestly he's a jerk but I'd take Yamato over Ronaldo any day. At least he takes responsibility for his actions and backs what he says without sugarcoating things with millions of deluded excuses.

That aside though, this new confirmation of Yamato's former status makes me reconsider the way he seemed so viciously anti-Alcor in the game. Through that whole flashback, Alcor was pretty much the only one he communicated with as anything remotely close to an equal. Yet, now that same Alcor is out all drooling over his new "shining one" and declaring Yamato basically sucks while actively trying to get him killed at times.

He probably wouldn't admit it even if you cut him open but that has to hurt. Especially considering how he takes the protagonist betraying him when they haven't know each other for even a week. More like isn't this guy kinda too starved for human contact for a supposed sociopath? What with how fast he latches on to him to begin with. I'm not trying to say it's pathetic but it's kinda pathetic. This development pretty much makes all of his truly batshit moments about abandonment issues. I mean yeah he's a teenager and all but dude.
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 20:43   Link #27
Destined_Fate
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
Ronaldo never takes responsibility for anything he does which makes sense. He has tricked himself into believing he's right and everything he does is justified because he's doing it. Ronaldo also never cared about the people, he just wanted an army to fight Yamato.

I can see that quite well.. Though I hate that they changed Ronaldo's history in the anime since I know they'll push that since he was with them at one point than he's totally right for doing stupid things to oppose them.
Destined_Fate is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 21:35   Link #28
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Most likely they changed his history to remove any reference to Dera-Deka.

In the games, his hatred stems from the fact that he believes Yamato's family is responsible for the death of his mentor.

This is honestly one change I don't mind. At least this way it'll look more like Ronaldo opposes Yamato because of clashing ideologies instead of a petty grudge.

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-05-04 at 21:57.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-04, 21:59   Link #29
Blizzard
KIRABOSHI☆!!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 22
That and it also means we won't waste time with the Dera-Deka subplot with only 13 episodes. Kinda like how they're removing the last day three faction clash by having them take care of their issues spread out on the way between the boss fights. That whole thing would've been total filler in anime format with no multiple endings to begin with. Though they'll still have to take care of some problematic individuals on the way probably.

Overall I'm kinda glad they're taking an anime original route? Since DeSu2 isn't linear and relationship centered like Persona 4, all endings combined make the whole plot so trying to adapt any single one of them would've been kinda botched on top of predictable and boring. As well as the fate events and stuff. So yeah shiny new stuff and expanded universe instead of the rehashing Break Record is going to do, fully voiced, anyway?

That said the hypocrite inside me still wants the takoyaki scene and sometimes it feels like I'm trying to brainwash myself into liking it.
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 04:50   Link #30
jeroz
Art Block Specialist
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Think they pretty much "ticked the box" for the takoyaki scene in that flashback for Yamato.
__________________
She's not Mary Sue, she's Hajime-su!
jeroz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 04:55   Link #31
maplehurry
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelic Cross View Post
For an example here in the anime, the fact that, despite having actually been in JPs and knowing about what was coming and
Spoiler for The state of the world:
he still has his peons distribute supplies willy nilly. This is not someone I want leading me.
well.. they only have 5 more days either way. And I still remember how chaotic it was out there in DeSu1 when there were no food for the public.

So while it's not the smartest idea to equally share the food, it makes some sense to spare some away.

But I would agree that Ronaldo's a less competent leader than Yamato.
maplehurry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 05:20   Link #32
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
Murdering Makoto is just at the tip of his trainwreck.
Killing your opponent in a conflict resembling war is considered murder now?


If anything, saying that is borderline insulting to Makoto.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 06:14   Link #33
Blizzard
KIRABOSHI☆!!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Killing your opponent in a conflict resembling war is considered murder now?


If anything, saying that is borderline insulting to Makoto.
Well Ronaldo was basically gathering an angry mob to attack, damage and sabotage a sanctioned GOVERNMENT organization a) responsible for protecting the world and pulling humanity through this whole mess b) led by a Hotsuin whose family has been protecting Japan even at the cost of their own lives for ages c) where people actually get the job done also even at the cost of their own lives.

They're not even withholding resources to survive. They do it to FIGHT as efficiently as they can to save humanity. As demonstrated several times, each JPs member is ready to lay down his or her own life if necessary. Whereas Ronaldo's people just want to save their own hides. Plus the thing where whatever plans Yamato has are for after beating Polaris which should be the priority over Ronaldo's one sided grudge.

He's not waging anything nearly as deep and complicated as war. Humanity and Septentrions are doing that. Ronaldo is a TERRORIST. And he's constantly, intentionally, ruining whatever extra changes humanity might have with the real enemy with his hostile meddling and along the way he killed a hardworking government official who wasn't even doing anything anymore basically JUST BECAUSE HE COULD AND HE WANTED TO STICK IT TO YAMATO. It's at the point where they could easily get away claiming he was actually being mind controlled by Polaris to do all that or something.

Let's not glorify his cause or conduct. The dude is as bad as the monster he's fighting if not worse. At least Yamato is consistent, effective and not needlessly petty.

In any case let's not use Makoto's tragedy to legitimize his bull either. She did everything she could to accomplish her duty and protect her comrades and went down with dignity at the face of death. Trying to make it out like she gave her all against a honest, brilliant leader instead of a childish, deluded hypocrite? That by itself makes her end less than it is while glorifying Ronaldo for managing to take down such a magnificent (unresisting) woman.
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 07:18   Link #34
eiyuu99
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
If his actions borderline insult Makoto on Day 6, Ronaldo rubbed salt in on Day 7.
eiyuu99 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 08:09   Link #35
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
Killing your opponent in a conflict resembling war is considered murder now?


If anything, saying that is borderline insulting to Makoto.
Declaring war and starting a conflict over a grudge in the first place is fine now?

You do realize that in the game, the generic summoners who follow him were called "Rioter(s)", right?

Trying to justify a conflict he started in the first place is borderline insulting to his mentor.


You also know that thing of his called an occupation? He is a detective. Isn't it his duty to investigate and bring the truth to justice? Yeah... he doesn't really do that either. If Daichi of all people can figure out how the world works by simply asking people like Fumi, Ronaldo has no excuse for being preoccupied with only Yamato. He didn't so much care where the summoning app or the Septentriones came from as much as he thought "I have power, therefore I will use it to do what I wanted to do but couldn't before."

Last edited by Shadow5YA; 2013-05-05 at 08:31.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 08:53   Link #36
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blizzard View Post
In any case let's not use Makoto's tragedy to legitimize his bull either. She did everything she could to accomplish her duty and protect her comrades and went down with dignity at the face of death. Trying to make it out like she gave her all against a honest, brilliant leader instead of a childish, deluded hypocrite? That by itself makes her end less than it is while glorifying Ronaldo for managing to take down such a magnificent (unresisting) woman.
Okay, let me get a few things straight here. I never legitimized anything. I never claimed Ronaldo te be brilliant, and I never glorified anyone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow5YA View Post
Declaring war and starting a conflict over a grudge in the first place is fine now?

You do realize that in the game, the generic summoners who follow him were called "Rioter(s)", right?

Trying to justify a conflict he started in the first place is borderline insulting to his mentor.


You also know that thing of his called an occupation? He is a detective. Isn't it his duty to investigate and bring the truth to justice? Yeah... he doesn't really do that either. If Daichi of all people can figure out how the world works by simply asking people like Fumi, Ronaldo has no excuse for being preoccupied with only Yamato. He didn't so much care where the summoning app or the Septentriones came from as much as he thought "I have power, therefore I will use it to do what I wanted to do but couldn't before."
I never claimed or denied any of those things either. There is only one point I am trying to make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eiyuu99 View Post
If his actions borderline insult Makoto on Day 6, Ronaldo rubbed salt in on Day 7.
And you misread my words. I said, if you do something as silly as label what happened to Makoto as "murder", then you are being unfair to Makoto, treating her as if she's some sort of helpless victim who can't do anything.



Seriously though, I don't know where any of you guys get off putting words in my mouth, but I wish you wouldn't do that.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 09:17   Link #37
Soliloquy
Secret Schemer
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Trendy Backwater
Age: 28
Who knows the anime might drastically change Ronaldo to quit acting idealistic. At this point, I think it's way too early to pick up torches and fork over one character. Seems now Ronaldo has an association with JPs, he might be a little more reasonable. Honestly I have not seen any idealistic characters with rational mind all the time or likable for that matter. Even in this anime, Ronaldo wouldn't really make any long lasting impression, his best option is to let Kuze Hibiki to be the leader.

And even if I do not like this overwhelming disdain for one character, I feel it's somewhat reasonable and I'd say it's pointless to change their minds to give this character a chance. Still very unfortunate.
__________________
Enthusiastic Slice of Life Guy
Soliloquy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 09:23   Link #38
Dengar
Kamen Rider Muppeteer
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Unknown
Age: 29
^I suppose you're right about that. But that doesn't make it any less frustrating when people misinterpret everything I say and try to counter arguments I never made.
Dengar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 09:38   Link #39
Shadow5YA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
And you misread my words. I said, if you do something as silly as label what happened to Makoto as "murder", then you are being unfair to Makoto, treating her as if she's some sort of helpless victim who can't do anything.



Seriously though, I don't know where any of you guys get off putting words in my mouth, but I wish you wouldn't do that.
Are these not your words?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dengar View Post
So 1: He's human and 2: He shoots an enemy, big whoop.

I always thought people hated him cos he's communist or something.
Feel free to correct me, but I interpret that "big whoop" as sarcasm... meaning you do not think it was a big deal that Ronaldo killed a person. That is where I disagree because of many reasons, some of which were already stated.


Another reason is how the cutscene specifically played out in the game. Makoto wasn't killed in the midst of battle, nor did either of them have their phones out to use magic or demons. Makoto forfeited her life as the scapegoat for JP's deeds.

A kill is a kill, whether you want to play semantics with its synonyms or not.


You also were the one who wanted to know the reason why people hated Ronaldo in the game, and I told you why. I don't know why you're getting defensive over an answer you asked for. It's not even a complaint about the anime - I stated how the anime portrayed him in a better light so far.
Shadow5YA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2013-05-05, 10:06   Link #40
Blizzard
KIRABOSHI☆!!!
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Age: 22
I don't even actually hate Ronaldo though =v= More like those are the traits that make him interesting to have around and add an extra dimension to the plot instead of making it one long boring boss rush. For the most part I'm just in love with melodramatic ranting.
Blizzard is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:39.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.