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Old 2013-12-15, 05:35   Link #741
shmaster
The Hades
 
 
Join Date: May 2009
Hm? But isn't that the problem? That Emilia understand she is just another everyday human instead of something special that she think she should have been.

And on BO-SO-ZOKU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%C5%8Ds%C5%8Dzoku
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Old 2013-12-15, 05:57   Link #742
ZodiacBeast
Dreaming Butterfly
 
 
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Anybody hear anything about that fan event yet? Or know of anywhere to look for news about it? Unfortunately I don't speak Japanese so I wouldn't be able to search where most people ge their news.
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Old 2013-12-15, 06:06   Link #743
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
Hm? But isn't that the problem? That Emilia understand she is just another everyday human instead of something special that she think she should have been.
Well, for one she isn't any "everyday human," since she's a Nephilim. Second, it's not about being "special", but actually embracing the role she was playing - not as what the Church raised her to be, or as some vehicle for personal revenge, but an actual hero who fights for the sake of others.
She was already doing that (in the very limited way the author allowed her), so I don't really see the reason for these latest developments that have made her reconsider her position a the Hero.

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So this is the Japanese version of the "American Badass"?
Funny
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Old 2013-12-15, 06:22   Link #744
shmaster
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Well, they also has a lot of association with gang groups and violence. This is especially bad during the 1970s, and lead to various social problems during that time.

As for Emilia's identity as a hero, I doubt that logic can work in this case. The decision she is facing here is either she gave up on her father's dream and stop a machinated war for the benefit of an arch villain, or that she choose to let the eastern continent burn just to protect that dream.
She consciously choose the later. She choose to let the people die fighting under her name, just so she can protect her life back then as a farming little girl. The very moment she valued the hostage over this on going war, she already prioritized her identity as a farm girl in the past rather the hero she should be right now.
She couldn't make any excuses for herself either, as she know no one would really get hurt even if she gives up on the hostage.
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Old 2013-12-15, 09:28   Link #745
Fwarlord
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Originally Posted by Used Can View Post
Sure, but we're not talking about real life here, but about fantasy. And this is the type of fantasy that follows the Hero and Demon Lord gimmick.
Emilia could have been developed into a good hero, but the author has decided to keep her as a gag character who seems unable to accomplish anything on her own instead.


But the whole development was precisely to achieve this.
And even then her predicament when she was blackmailed by Orba doesn't make her any less of a hero, since she is still human and any other person would have found himself in the same position.

This is why I'm saying this is shitty writing, since the whole approach could have been different.


What's the BO-SO-ZOKU joke I keep seeing around?
Actually, I fail to see how Emi could be anything other than a gag character who can't do anything on her own and only exist to get bully by others. She is just a countryside girl without any idea, believe or philosophy. Her original reason for fighting is vengeance, she don't even understand the concept of heroism, she doesn't fight for any great good. And when it turned out that the person she was desperately trying to avenge still is safe and sound, her determination to fight ceased to exist.
That also the reason why Emi could be blackmail so easily. A true hero will never succumb to evil and can be blackmail by no one because he only serve the greater good and make it his first priority before anything else. Those who fail to do that can never call themselves heroes.
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Old 2013-12-15, 13:38   Link #746
Shadow5YA
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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
Actually, I fail to see how Emi could be anything other than a gag character who can't do anything on her own and only exist to get bully by others. She is just a countryside girl without any idea, believe or philosophy. Her original reason for fighting is vengeance, she don't even understand the concept of heroism, she doesn't fight for any great good. And when it turned out that the person she was desperately trying to avenge still is safe and sound, her determination to fight ceased to exist.
That also the reason why Emi could be blackmail so easily. A true hero will never succumb to evil and can be blackmail by no one because he only serve the greater good and make it his first priority before anything else. Those who fail to do that can never call themselves heroes.
She doesn't have to be a hero to be at least somewhat competent. It's pretty obvious that Maou is the protagonist, but that doesn't mean Emi can't get things done for her own selfish reasons. Lucifer sabotaged Orba and Sariel's plans so he could go back to his easy life as a hikikomori.

Having less than heroic reasons to fight does not mean she has to be a damsel in distress all the time. At this rate, even Chiho will become a better fighter than her.
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Old 2013-12-15, 13:40   Link #747
Used Can
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shmaster View Post
As for Emilia's identity as a hero, I doubt that logic can work in this case. The decision she is facing here is either she gave up on her father's dream and stop a machinated war for the benefit of an arch villain, or that she choose to let the eastern continent burn just to protect that dream.
She consciously choose the later. She choose to let the people die fighting under her name, just so she can protect her life back then as a farming little girl. The very moment she valued the hostage over this on going war, she already prioritized her identity as a farm girl in the past rather the hero she should be right now.
She couldn't make any excuses for herself either, as she know no one would really get hurt even if she gives up on the hostage.
Ah, I see, so it was this type of choice. I suppose that indeed explains why she thinks she's unfit to be a hero, considering she let tons of people just to protect her father.

Either way, I still cannot say I like this development since this leaves Emi with nothing. Her role in the story was that of the Hero, but now she's just another haremette and a gag character who can't properly do anything (she couldn't even keep her job).
I honestly would have preferred if the author wouldn't have written this development.

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A true hero will never succumb to evil and can be blackmail by no one because he only serve the greater good and make it his first priority before anything else. Those who fail to do that can never call themselves heroes.
I really cannot agree to that. No matter how great a person is, if you mess with their loved ones, they'll always show weakness and depending on how close the people in question are to him, the more easily it will be to manipulate him.
Of course, an author can always write some scenario showing the hero is some unparalleled genius who can come up with some really contrived plan to save both his love ones, everyone else and get some Hollywood ending with cool music and dancing at the end.
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Old 2013-12-15, 15:42   Link #748
Frozt
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In the Dark Knight, Batman chose Rachael over Harvey Dent.
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Old 2013-12-15, 21:02   Link #749
Fwarlord
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I really cannot agree to that. No matter how great a person is, if you mess with their loved ones, they'll always show weakness and depending on how close the people in question are to him, the more easily it will be to manipulate him.
Of course, an author can always write some scenario showing the hero is some unparalleled genius who can come up with some really contrived plan to save both his love ones, everyone else and get some Hollywood ending with cool music and dancing at the end.
Well, an actual hero cannot be considered as a "normal person", so he isn't supposed to act like one. Indeed, he isn't a "person", but a personify of the idea he serve. It means he must be ready to sacrifice anything to protect that idea, be it himself or those who dear to him.
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Old 2013-12-15, 22:32   Link #750
Used Can
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You're talking about an ideal of what heroism is supposed to be like - and I'm sure most people wouldn't consider heroic some person who lets their loved ones die for the sake of the greater good. So, I'm not sure where you're pulling this ideal from.
Of course, heroes are expected to make some personal sacrifices, but they're almost always expected to save everyone, or at least try (even if they end up failing).

Anyhow, I'm not talking about some abstract ideas, but about actual characters that have been considered heroes. In the end, they're not supposed to be machines, but people who also have feelings and weaknesses. So, using their loved ones as hostages will generally put them in a bad position.
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Old 2013-12-15, 23:36   Link #751
dragon1412
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Originally Posted by Fwarlord View Post
Well, an actual hero cannot be considered as a "normal person", so he isn't supposed to act like one. Indeed, he isn't a "person", but a personify of the idea he serve. It means he must be ready to sacrifice anything to protect that idea, be it himself or those who dear to him.
the problem is the term "hero" you are using, the original meaning behind hero is just courage, that's why back in barbarian story, there are many person who assault village, kill many, but still consider hero, the word is mean to praise their strength and courage. The "hero" you are mentioning, is belong to the second age, basically, idealism, something that very rare or possibly it's existence is questionable as the ideal of hero is someone who willing to sacrifice everything but their motivation become questionable over time, leading to 3rd age, basically those who fight for a reason, and the reason just happen to overlap with greater good, people who fight for their family, but just happened to protect the world where their family live in. The hero you believe in, if exist, is untrustworthy, because someone who is willing to sacrifice everything is questionable as a hero, as the ideal maybe true for one but not other, if he let his loved one die for greater good, then his very personality is questionable as a human. There is also the term " normal person", the original hero is another meaning for Demigod, no good and no bad, the heroism exist when human overtake the term "hero", and human required reason to fight, hero in idealism, is simply the wish of people, as such, the ideal hero never sacrifice anything but himself.
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Old 2013-12-16, 12:50   Link #752
Fwarlord
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
the problem is the term "hero" you are using, the original meaning behind hero is just courage, that's why back in barbarian story, there are many person who assault village, kill many, but still consider hero, the word is mean to praise their strength and courage. The "hero" you are mentioning, is belong to the second age, basically, idealism, something that very rare or possibly it's existence is questionable as the ideal of hero is someone who willing to sacrifice everything but their motivation become questionable over time, leading to 3rd age, basically those who fight for a reason, and the reason just happen to overlap with greater good, people who fight for their family, but just happened to protect the world where their family live in. The hero you believe in, if exist, is untrustworthy, because someone who is willing to sacrifice everything is questionable as a hero, as the ideal maybe true for one but not other, if he let his loved one die for greater good, then his very personality is questionable as a human. There is also the term " normal person", the original hero is another meaning for Demigod, no good and no bad, the heroism exist when human overtake the term "hero", and human required reason to fight, hero in idealism, is simply the wish of people, as such, the ideal hero never sacrifice anything but himself.
How can an ideal hero be untrustworthy? Usually, people give the title "hero" to someone because he can accomplish great deeds that others cannot. It mean to deserve his title, a hero must get the job done no matter what. Only those who can abandon anything for his agenda can do such task. Why border questioning a hero's humanity if he can always accomplish his missions? On the contrary, if all it take to stop a hero from saving the world is threatening a single person, how can people trust him with their lives?
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Old 2013-12-16, 12:59   Link #753
dragon1412
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How can an ideal hero be untrustworthy? Usually, people give the title "hero" to someone because he can accomplish great deeds that others cannot. It mean to deserve his title, a hero must get the job done no matter what. Only those who can abandon anything for his agenda can do such task. Why border questioning a hero's humanity if he can always accomplish his missions? On the contrary, if all it take to stop a hero from saving the world is threatening a single person, how can people trust him with their lives?
the problem lies in their existence, you see, the thing is : it is because they done great deeds that they were called hero, not that because that they are hero so they have to done great deeds, being a hero is altruism, not responsibility.
As for your next question, a hero who can be threatened is far more trustworthy to and your life into, why ?? if he can sacrifice anything for his ideal, you are no exception, someone who can be threatened is someone who have care for the hostage, as for other, if some one threaten him " i will kill 600 man if you did not give up remaining 700" your ideal will cause the death of 600 simply because 700 is greater than 600, if it was me, i'd rather trust the one who can be threatened.
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Old 2013-12-16, 21:33   Link #754
liemtodaisu
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Originally Posted by dragon1412 View Post
the problem lies in their existence, you see, the thing is : it is because they done great deeds that they were called hero, not that because that they are hero so they have to done great deeds, being a hero is altruism, not responsibility.
As for your next question, a hero who can be threatened is far more trustworthy to and your life into, why ?? if he can sacrifice anything for his ideal, you are no exception, someone who can be threatened is someone who have care for the hostage, as for other, if some one threaten him " i will kill 600 man if you did not give up remaining 700" your ideal will cause the death of 600 simply because 700 is greater than 600, if it was me, i'd rather trust the one who can be threatened.
This takes me back when I first played Fable III, the king ordered the protagonist to kill the villagers and spare the protag's childhood friend, or one way another. Still depressed for making the former choice until today .
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Old 2013-12-18, 18:20   Link #755
Avaricia
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i am gonna bet on Nyarlathotep
I bet she's in her swimsuit
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Old 2013-12-18, 21:47   Link #756
Bakaizer
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Ah, I see, so it was this type of choice. I suppose that indeed explains why she thinks she's unfit to be a hero, considering she let tons of people just to protect her father.

Either way, I still cannot say I like this development since this leaves Emi with nothing. Her role in the story was that of the Hero, but now she's just another haremette and a gag character who can't properly do anything (she couldn't even keep her job).
I honestly would have preferred if the author wouldn't have written this development.
its like your saying heroes don't have any downfalls. I think this a realization to her mistakes and her own personal desires which had huge negative effects. Emi must pull herself together and must act according to a true ideal hero even when she would force herself to sacrifice her personal desires
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Old 2013-12-19, 19:00   Link #757
Used Can
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That's what I'm saying though. However, the spoilers (unless I'm reading them wrong) say Emi is dropping the Hero deal for good, since she thinks she never was one and is unfit to be one.
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Old 2013-12-19, 21:09   Link #758
Endscape
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That's what I'm saying though. However, the spoilers (unless I'm reading them wrong) say Emi is dropping the Hero deal for good, since she thinks she never was one and is unfit to be one.
Being a hero was almost like Emi's actual career, wasn't it? I doubt she's going to stop doing what she always did, it's just that she won't call herself a hero anymore while she does it.
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Old 2013-12-19, 21:16   Link #759
ReaperxKingx
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I am wondering, why on Earth is there a discussion about the definition of a hero?
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Old 2013-12-19, 22:53   Link #760
Used Can
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Because there's a character playing the role of "The Hero" in this story and she just questioned if she really was one in the latest volume?
It seems a fairly normal discussion to have after that.

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Being a hero was almost like Emi's actual career, wasn't it? I doubt she's going to stop doing what she always did, it's just that she won't call herself a hero anymore while she does it.
Ahe only did it for revenge, by her own admission. Though this clearly contradicts her actions since the beginning of the story, as she's always been helping everyone out simply because she's a nice person.

Anyhow, I know she won't stop helping out and fighting bad guys because she no longer calls herself "The Hero," but I'm hoping she doesn't drop the title, but realises instead she's been one ever since she took the sword - despite her desire for revenge or even if the Church was full of shit.
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