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Old 2012-07-07, 00:06   Link #1121
Undertaker
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@karice67

Q1: I wasn't at Japan, but I was at Taiwan at the time.


Q2: Simply put, creating as many interact points between the market and the product.

I'll give you the PVs, however those PVs of HanaIro were officially released on Youtube channel as well, (which has for past two have become a legit advertising tool in Japan). In addition, the background music from nano.RIPE, a debuting band add a little publicity for it as well. Their first 5 singles all tie in to HanaIro as well, which provide additional spots that Anohana doesn't have.


As for posters, I did mention that Seibu Rail did have poster on them as well in Chichibu City Statation.

On the other hand, Nanao Rail does the same thing so at on that front we can say at least both work were the same. (Though the follow up effort is vastly different but that's different story)

Magazine promotion and related work, I'm assuming you're agree with me.

So it really comes down to, TV spots.

Now while I not in Japan at time, I do watch enough variety shows and j-drama and can't recall seeing much CM spots about it, However I do see Variety Shows especially traveling and music variety mentioning the work, So take it for what it's worth.

Anyway, the point I was making is that most anime's primary marketing tool is manga magazine unless you have outside economical ties like say Gundams or even say AKB0048. For an original work with no prior fan base, Anohana's promotion too lacking to say call it a work targeting casual viewers.

Lastly Hanasaku's best time slot was in TOKYO MX on Sunday, 22:00-22:30 compare to Thursday 25:15-25:25 late night slot. You just don't see anime on that early a slot if it was targeting hardcore crowd.


But again this is just my take and was really not related to the original question about the condition of noitaminA.

Now looking at the ratings, the [C]/AnoHana season is obvious the second peak of noitaminA. The question here is rating regained and then subsequently lost, are the casual audience or hardcore anime fans (who should watch anything to begin with)?



EDIT:

Also one thing I think should pointed out is that the early noitaminA anime has a lot of tied-in to them even if the works were all Shojo and Josei based. Honey & Clover, Hataraki Man, Antique Bakery, Nodame, they all have popular TV drama adaption ahead of it in addition to solid fanbase who read the original manga. Paradise Kiss, Ayakashi on the other hand have source works that had mainstream publicity.

All these factors were sort of missing in recent adaptions with Thermae Romae and Usagi Drop been the only notable exception and interesting both work were able to hold down the 2% line.
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Old 2012-07-07, 00:51   Link #1122
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Q2: Simply put, creating as many interact points between the market and the product.
I'll have to disagree. Creating as many interaction points as possible means you're trying to target lots of different groups. I've never actually seen a series that has done that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
however those PVs of HanaIro were officially released on Youtube channel as well, (which has for past two have become a legit advertising tool in Japan). In addition, the background music from nano.RIPE, a debuting band add a little publicity for it as well. Their first 5 singles all tie in to HanaIro as well, which provide additional spots that Anohana doesn't have.
To me, that only proves that they're targeting specific groups of people who aren't quite the mass market. If you want to target the mass market in Japan, I think you need to use TV and other more traditional forms of advertising (yup, NOT the internet!), and you wouldn't be using a new band, but an established one, and probably covering an old, classic song.

The latter is something that AnoHana did with its ending theme, secret base ~that which you gave me~ (secret base ~kimi ga kureta mono~). The original by ZONE, was a hit back in 2001, and the theme song of a mid-day drama that ran from 1999-2003.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
As for posters, I did mention that Seibu Rail did have poster on them as well in Chichibu City Statation.

*snip*
Er...I was talking about the inner city trains in Tokyo and arguably Osaka - the major cities. Not the lines going out into the country. That said, I have very little idea what is advertised on them, given that I didn't live in those areas. But I very much doubt HanaIro was one of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Magazine promotion and related work, I'm assuming you're agree with me.
That would depend on WHICH magazines etc it was in, and whether it was in, for example, the newspapers. Again, difficult to know unless you were actually in Japan at the time. I'm not even arguing that they did a lot of advertisement, but I am saying that you can't know that they didn't either.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Now while I not in Japan at time, I do watch enough variety shows and j-drama and can't recall seeing much CM spots about it, However I do see Variety Shows especially traveling and music variety mentioning the work, So take it for what it's worth.
This also comes down to where you got those variety shows and j-drama from. Most online ones have the commercials cut out, IIRC, and of course there'd be no related commercials if the AnoHana wasn't even showing on the same channel. Once again, I think it's difficult to say unless you were actually in the country, and in a location that was broadcasting AnoHana (or any other show you might want to investigate) at the time.

I certainly never saw any noitaminA ads on TV despite 3 years in Japan - but that was because they didn't even show noitaminA in my part of the country.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Anyway, the point I was making is that most anime's primary marketing tool is manga magazine unless you have outside economical ties like say Gundams or even say AKB0048. For an original work with no prior fan base, Anohana's promotion too lacking to say call it a work targeting casual viewers.
Which is completely besides the point when we're talking about marketing to the mass market, don't you think? We're not talking about targeting casual viewers of anime, but about targeting people who normally wouldn't even consider watching anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Lastly Hanasaku's best time slot was in TOKYO MX on Sunday, 22:00-22:30 compare to Thursday 25:15-25:25 late night slot. You just don't see anime on that early a slot if it was targeting hardcore crowd.
You forget that Tokyo MX is a channel that arguably caters towards anime fans.

Rinne no Lagrange also airs from 10-10.30 at night - you're not going to tell me that's something meant for the casual anime viewer, much less the masses who don't usually watch anime, are you?



I guess my point is this: none of us really knows how AnoHana was marketed at all. You might certainly be right. But based on what I understand of the anime and mass markets, and on the comparison between what kinds of advertisement I know AnoHana and HanaIro had, I'd have to disagree.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Now looking at the ratings, the [C]/AnoHana season is obvious the second peak of noitaminA. The question here is rating regained and then subsequently lost, are the casual audience or hardcore anime fans (who should watch anything to begin with)?
The simple answer is: both. No other noitaminA series has achieved the same sales or ratings since. No show has managed to hit that sweet spot that AnoHana bullseyed in the past year, and I'm not expecting any of the others this year to either.
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Old 2012-07-07, 01:15   Link #1123
Guardian Enzo
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Robotics;Notes has the potential to do very well. It could have some crossover appeal, too - I know a lot of non-otaku and casuals fans who really liked S;G.
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Old 2012-07-07, 02:16   Link #1124
Undertaker
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I'll have to disagree. Creating as many interaction points as possible means you're trying to target lots of different groups. I've never actually seen a series that has done that.
No, the point of market is creating as many interaction point as you can with targeting market.

Anyway, isn't that what we are talking about? Is Anohana targeted casual or hardcore anime viewers?

If if is like you or Guardian Enzo was saying, then Anohana is targeting at non-hardcore anime watcher.

In that case mass marketing should be their primary strategy.

If your definition for casual market are limited to causal anime viewers, then the primary marketing strategy is aiming at what casual anime viewer to most likely to see or do.

In most case, that is ACG related magazine or radio program.

Either way, that is my marketing textbooks says, if you have other view of it, I'll glad to hear it from you and apply them to my work.



Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
To me, that only proves that they're targeting specific groups of people who aren't quite the mass market. If you want to target the mass market in Japan, I think you need to use TV and other more traditional forms of advertising (yup, NOT the internet!), and you wouldn't be using a new band, but an established one, and probably covering an old, classic song.
Have you recently keep track on Japanese TV and music scenes? For example AKB has be using net and blogs as the primary tool for events and advertising and announcement. Variety TV shows now have regular Net shows to supplement it. Take London Hearts for example, their NET movie which show stuff that they weren't able to air has over 10 million hits.

And we are not even talking about Ameba, G+,or Twitters effects. Heck there are many variety shows right now dedicate on following celebrity blogs and twitters.



Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The latter is something that AnoHana did with its ending theme, secret base ~that which you gave me~ (secret base ~kimi ga kureta mono~). The original by ZONE, was a hit back in 2001, and the theme song of a mid-day drama that ran from 1999-2003.
Fine, but how many 10 year old PV do you see on Variety in Japan that allow you to drop the name of the series that uses it?

As far as I know only Music Station does that in their Birth Year song corners, otherwise unless Zone has new works and was promoting them the marketing effect on it is minimal.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Er...I was talking about the inner city trains in Tokyo and arguably Osaka - the major cities. Not the lines going out into the country. That said, I have very little idea what is advertised on them, given that I didn't live in those areas. But I very much doubt HanaIro was one of them.
Then I can't comment on them.

All I can say is that I know in Kanazawa City there are heavy promotion for Hanasaku which made news to the point that even the Ishikawa Prefecture itself got involved. Anohana might have similar promotion in Chichibu City that it is much smaller city compare to Kanazawa and I don't remember seeing any news on Saitama Prefecture's involvement.



Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
That would depend on WHICH magazines etc it was in, and whether it was in, for example, the newspapers. Again, difficult to know unless you were actually in Japan at the time. I'm not even arguing that they did a lot of advertisement, but I am saying that you can't know that they didn't either.
Agree, which is why all we can do is from the news material and the magazines that we were exposed. BTW, in Taiwan there are shops dedicate to raw Japanese magazines, you can even but they in convenient shops so at least on that front I don't think my knowledge would be much off base.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
This also comes down to where you got those variety shows and j-drama from. Most online ones have the commercials cut out, IIRC, and of course there'd be no related commercials if the AnoHana wasn't even showing on the same channel. Once again, I think it's difficult to say unless you were actually in the country, and in a location that was broadcasting AnoHana (or any other show you might want to investigate) at the time.
Not disagreeing here, but let me ask you logically.

If you're a marketing director on Fuji TV, would you use CM slots on prime time for a show airing at 1:15 AM for would you sell it big companies for big CM money?

While I agree with you that even if you live in Japan it's be hard to say how often the CM shows and even then unless youare a HUGE Fuji TV fan, it would have to know how often.

But logically thinking, if even I can hear the show got mentioned in various variety shows doesn't that shows that at least on TV marketing front HanaIro is superior?

Of course, that is unless Fuji TV has more viewers than all other Japanese TV station combined.?


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I certainly never saw any noitaminA ads on TV despite 3 years in Japan - but that was because they didn't even show noitaminA in my part of the country.
So I'm not commenting on this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Which is completely besides the point when we're talking about marketing to the mass market, don't you think? We're not talking about targeting casual viewers of anime, but about targeting people who normally wouldn't even consider watching anime.
Then this is where you miss my biggest point and the core of marketing.

All marketing efforts are tie to it's sponsors. Without sponsors, you can't even market if you wanted, which is why we see selected product placement in anime or marketing efforts on sponsor front.

Being target toward mass market only increase their importance not lessen it. Because you got more resources and product tie-in that helps to promo the shows and drive ratings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
You forget that Tokyo MX is a channel that arguably caters towards anime fans.

Rinne no Lagrange also airs from 10-10.30 at night - you're not going to tell me that's something meant for the casual anime viewer, much less the masses who don't usually watch anime, are you?
Then it depends on the show in front and after it. It just happens that the show in front that slot is drama and after it is comedy variety, both target young adults crowd, which is legit market for mech and shonen/seinen type shows.

The lead-in audience from the drama can be retained some what going in and then the carrying-over viewer from that anime slot can go into the comedy program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I guess my point is this: none of us really knows how AnoHana was marketed at all. You might certainly be right. But based on what I understand of the anime and mass markets, and on the comparison between what kinds of advertisement I know AnoHana and HanaIro had, I'd have to disagree.

Actually, now I'm confused. because your argument doesn't seem to completely support that Anohana is targeting at mass market just that HanaIro is not targeting at mass market.

In that case, they we just wasted our time.

Because my stand is that both HanaIro and Anohana are aimed toward anime viewers.

I was only using HanaIro as a test ground for Guardian Enzo since GE's view is that HanaIro is aimed at mass market while Anohana is not.

My reasoning is that, based from what I know of the effort and my specialty in marketing, how can Anohana being aimed toward mass market and HanaIro is not when the marketing effort and exposure is vastly inferior for Anohana in my opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The simple answer is: both. No other noitaminA has achieved the same sales or ratings since. No show has managed to hit that sweet spot that AnoHana in the past year, and I'm not expecting any of the others this year to either.
Then that's where the question should be. What is exactly the point for noitaminA? is it trying to get ratings? DVD sales? or sale boost for related product?

You can't really expect a 3+% in that slot all the time, that is just not reasonable, and frankly not possible. None of other series then the ones I listed in my last post have an established mass market appeal or related project.

Anohana's 2.6% is still great, and 2.1% in 1:15AM is still pretty decent, and if you can attract the right demographic that number is definitely ok. Which is basically Usagi Drop and Thermae Romae did.

Dip below 2%, now that is more concerning.
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Old 2012-07-07, 03:24   Link #1125
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
You can't really expect a 3+% in that slot all the time, that is just not reasonable, and frankly not possible.
Well it certainly once was possible as the ratings posted by cyth here demonstrate. The bigger question to me is whether the audience for late-night anime has shrunk.

I was browsing some of the ratings from 2007-2008 posted by Siegel Clyne earlier in this thread. While few late-night shows other than noitaminA offerings topped 3%, there were some others like Kaiji, Nougami Neuro, and xxxHolic that scored in the mid-to-high twos. Looking at the numbers for the first half of 2012 shows many more late-night series with ratings under 1.0. I've thought from time to time about comparing timeslots over the past few years to see what the trends have been. My general sense from looking at these numbers over the past half-dozen years is that late-night anime viewership is in decline.

Part of the reason for that might be demographics as the numbers of adolescents and young adults in Japan continue to shrink. The Japanese Census authority estimates that the population aged 15-24 will fall from 10.9% in 2005 to 8.2% by 2030. Still that pace of change is too slow to be a primary reason for declining rates of late-night viewing. I suspect it has more to do with changing tastes. Perhaps anime just isn't as relevant to its primary viewing audience as it once was. Perhaps the production committees have given up on reaching out beyond the otaku audience and have been somewhat responsible for the decline in the medium's broader appeal.

Even otaku-oriented shows haven't done all that well of late. Look at the figures for Sengoku Collection, Medaka Box, or Daily Lives of Highschool Boys. The latter reached ratings in the low ones on occasion; the others struggled to break 0.5. In comparison to those figures, the ratings for noitaminA, while low in historical perspective, may actually be pretty decent. Still whether advertisers will buy time in a show that reaches 1.5% of the audience is another question entirely. They might be persuaded if that audience is sufficiently distinctive and not likely to watch other types of television programming or be reachable via other media channels. (Sports plays that role with respect to the hard-to-reach young male demographic here in America; I suspect that's true globally as well.) I have no idea whether that applies to the anime viewing audience in general, or the noitaminA audience in particular.
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Old 2012-07-07, 03:43   Link #1126
karice67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
No, the point of market is creating as many interaction point as you can with targeting market.

*snip*

In that case mass marketing should be their primary strategy.
What I understand of marketing is that advertisers market a particular product to a target audience. Where you and I seem to differ is what the product is, and thus what the target audience is.

E.g. linking anime with Kanazawa tourism means targeting anime fans who might visit Kanazawa because of the anime. Or perhaps the other way around - getting people from Kanazawa (~400,000 people) or Ishikawa Prefecture (~1.1 million people) to watch HanaIro. I personally think the first is the primary aim of the advertisements - i.e. this strategy, to me, involves primarily marketing TO viewers of HanaIro the idea of touring Kanazawa.

That said, I'm open to being convinced that it's a mass-marketing strategy for the anime, if you can explain to me how it works as such given that the anime stigma would still have most people going 'ah, anime, not interested'.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
If your definition for casual market are limited to causal anime viewers, then the primary marketing strategy is aiming at what casual anime viewer to most likely to see or do.

In most case, that is ACG related magazine or radio program.
That's the thing, I don't think the AnoHana producers advertised just to - or even, perhaps, primarily to - casual viewers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Have you recently keep track on Japanese TV and music scenes? For example AKB has be using net and blogs as the primary tool for events and advertising and announcement. Variety TV shows now have regular Net shows to supplement it. Take London Hearts for example, their NET movie which show stuff that they weren't able to air has over 10 million hits.

And we are not even talking about Ameba, G+,or Twitters effects. Heck there are many variety shows right now dedicate on following celebrity blogs and twitters.
I guess my question here would be: WHO are the people at the other end? i.e. the people reading those tweets, or reading those blogs?

And who are producers aiming to target with those blogs or twitter accounts?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Fine, but how many 10 year old PV do you see on Variety in Japan that allow you to drop the name of the series that uses it?

As far as I know only Music Station does that in their Birth Year song corners, otherwise unless Zone has new works and was promoting them the marketing effect on it is minimal.
Er...they wouldn't have to do that. The cover version is the one that people would have heard, and they'd link it to the original. Isn't that how covers work? Hearing the cover leads to recollection of the original, which is what people are familiar with, thus making those people interested in the artist or property that is associated with the cover?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Not disagreeing here, but let me ask you logically.

If you're a marketing director on Fuji TV, would you use CM slots on prime time for a show airing at 1:15 AM for would you sell it big companies for big CM money?

While I agree with you that even if you live in Japan it's be hard to say how often the CM shows and even then unless youare a HUGE Fuji TV fan, it would have to know how often.

But logically thinking, if even I can hear the show got mentioned in various variety shows doesn't that shows that at least on TV marketing front HanaIro is superior?

Of course, that is unless Fuji TV has more viewers than all other Japanese TV station combined.?
On those CM slots, I think it depends on whether the producers are willing to back the show or not.

As for HanaIro's stuff: what kinds of variety shows were they, and how was it presented?



Then again, having gotten to the following, nevermind.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Actually, now I'm confused. because your argument doesn't seem to completely support that Anohana is targeting at mass market just that HanaIro is not targeting at mass market.
The latter was precisely my point.

The former is something I don't have much evidence for - other than noting that AnoHana had 5 TV spots, and I think I did see people posting about newspaper articles / things published in non-ACG related media.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
In that case, they we just wasted our time.

Because my stand is that both HanaIro and Anohana are aimed toward anime viewers.
Yeah, because my stand is that they're not. Which I would say is reflected in some of the differences in marketing strategies.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
I was only using HanaIro as a test ground for Guardian Enzo since GE's view is that HanaIro is aimed at mass market while Anohana is not.
Other way round, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
My reasoning is that, based from what I know of the effort and my specialty in marketing, how can Anohana being aimed toward mass market and HanaIro is not when the marketing effort and exposure is vastly inferior for Anohana in my opinion.
Well, my question to you then is, what exactly do you know of how AnoHana was marketed? Have you based your comparison on an extensive coverage of all the possible means of advertisement in Japan, or supplemented it with information from the AnoHana producers on how they advertised?

I am not a marketing specialist, and I will never claim to be. I'm just someone who questions data and the way it is collected and interpreted, because that is what several degrees involving research in the social sciences has taught me to do.


I also know rough results of whatever marketing the AnoHana producers/backers did. In an article talking about its ratings shortly after its run, the producer observed that (1) AnoHana was the only noitaminA show to follow Nodame's and Hakaba Kitarou's footsteps in being talked about widely in public, and that (2)* the ratings/sales disjunct also supports the idea that it had more casual viewers.

(*Basically, he compared it against the ratings and sales that Madoka had - Madoka had lower ratings for higher sales than AnoHana. The caveat here, of course, is perhaps that Madoka could have been available via other means, e.g. streaming on Nico video, or some other online sites (in contrast, noitaminA still isn't streamed in Japan, if I'm not mistaken, at least, not during the original run), or perhaps, illegal downloading, so its viewership arguably may not reflect the actual number of weekly viewers, thus making the comparison suspect.)

So, I'm not convinced that AnoHana wasn't marketed to a more general audience just by so-called 'lack of evidence'.


For HanaIro, I don't even know whether it got further out to a more general audience. The fact that a film is coming out this year suggests that it might have had some success there (ala K-ON, perhaps?). Does anyone actually know?

-----

You'll need to ask the noitaminA producers about that. Though several interviews over the last year or two suggest that they're still testing the waters.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-07-07 at 03:55.
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Old 2012-07-07, 06:39   Link #1127
Undertaker
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You pretty much answered your question. This basically cross branding or cross marketing. It happens when there is two or more beneficiaries and products.

Let's sticking to TV shows and assuming the simplest case for now. Stations creates show so they can air, the rating brings in revenue so that they can make new shows. The revenues comes from advertising dollars. That's the basic formula. Now, making shows is not cheap, so to spread the risk, sponsors are needed. Usually the return for those sponsors is the message "the program is sponsored by..." That is part of marketing, at same time they might get a free CM spot or at a discount depend on the agreement. In essence sponsors "prepaid" the purchase of their CM spot. So at this point both parties' best interests are tied. Sponsor marketing the shows on their own product in hope the rating goes up, this way station makes money, the CM spot become more expense, the sponsor company's CM spot deal also become more cost-effective

In this anime's case, the Prefecture/Cities use the show to increase tourism, but at same time the show benefited from high exposures to that prefecture. What was exchange was that all family names of the show taken from the local area in prefectures and the local business like Mitsuoka Motor(who HQ is in the neighboring prefecture that located in same peninsula) and local hot spring hotel to invests to increase the capital for creating the show. (who knows, maybe the local government also invested budge themselves)

So this is not one sided affair where the prefecture just using the show to benefit from local tourism. Also by have setup various events, the prefecture is fulfilling it's sponsor role in advertising for the show for the win-win situation. Those event then have multiplies effect once they become news and get local station involved, and non-anime viewer might get attracted to see that this anime is about (and the time of the show isn't bad at all), which comes back to full circle as ratings.



Actually, what the hell was I talking about in the previous post toward the end.
My stand was that HanaIro was aimed at mass market, and Anohana was not.

Stay up all night long because it's the weekend, really mess up my head.


Now, with that clear and out of the way, the only thing our stands differ is whether Anohana is aiming towards mass market or not.

To that, however, I'm now not so certain. But not because G.E.'s reason that it was because of the story. My uncertainty is now because that there is a potential that Anohana uses the same marketing strategy (to a lessor degree) as HanaIro.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
I guess my question here would be: WHO are the people at the other end? i.e. the people reading those tweets, or reading those blogs?

And who are producers aiming to target with those blogs or twitter accounts?
That's besides the point, the main point here (for marketing) is exposure. Who sees/read them doesn't matter, as long as they do watch/read them.

And that really is the core of marketing, other stuff about isolating the market and such are elements to lower cost and improve cost/effect ratio.

And this really is the beauties about internet marketing, if your target is broad enough, it allows you to do mass advertising with very little capital.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Er...they wouldn't have to do that. The cover version is the one that people would have heard, and they'd link it to the original. Isn't that how covers work? Hearing the cover leads to recollection of the original, which is what people are familiar with, thus making those people interested in the artist or property that is associated with the cover?

On those CM slots, I think it depends on whether the producers are willing to back the show or not.

As for HanaIro's stuff: what kinds of variety shows were they, and how was it presented?
These two sort of related, basically the artist goes on music show and they'll drop the names of show here and there. Also when the PV was airing there'll be message that the song was used in this program as OP/ED.

These advertising effects in now more apparent in past few years with anime song on a rising and many artists start to use it tool for their debuting, though it's fairly common for drama and movie theme songs. BTW, AKB is extremely good at play this type of games. Their sub-units like No3b, French Kiss, Diva all had their singles used in anime OP/ED and they promote the hell out of them when they were on shows.

But let's just stop on the HanaIro/Anohana debate since now you and I agrees on HanaIro and I'll reserve my opinion on Anohana for lack of evidence on my part.



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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Well it certainly once was possible as the ratings posted by cyth here demonstrate. The bigger question to me is whether the audience for late-night anime has shrunk.
Don't really want to get into another long post debate right now, So I'll keep short. (or as short as I can)

Sure it's possible, but but it's a stretch to expect it all the time when the best performers in noitaminA usually have more then just source material to lean on.

Honey & Clover, Hataraki Man, Antique Bakery, Nodame, all had real live drama or movies that adds to their fanbase that would attract viewers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
I was browsing some of the ratings from 2007-2008 posted by Siegel Clyne earlier in this thread. While few late-night shows other than noitaminA offerings topped 3%, there were some others like Kaiji, Nougami Neuro, and xxxHolic that scored in the mid-to-high twos. Looking at the numbers for the first half of 2012 shows many more late-night series with ratings under 1.0. I've thought from time to time about comparing timeslots over the past few years to see what the trends have been. My general sense from looking at these numbers over the past half-dozen years is that late-night anime viewership is in decline.
This I would agree.


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Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Part of the reason for that might be demographics as the numbers of adolescents and young adults in Japan continue to shrink. The Japanese Census authority estimates that the population aged 15-24 will fall from 10.9% in 2005 to 8.2% by 2030. Still that pace of change is too slow to be a primary reason for declining rates of late-night viewing. I suspect it has more to do with changing tastes. Perhaps anime just isn't as relevant to its primary viewing audience as it once was. Perhaps the production committees have given up on reaching out beyond the otaku audience and have been somewhat responsible for the decline in the medium's broader appeal.
While I agree on the demographic part, I had different view on the production committees.

Being a variety show viewer, what I did observe was that there are 2 industries in an up climb, Manzai/Sketch Comedy and Idols. (primarily due to the rise of 48 groups)

There are more and more of variety shows that starts up in these past few years that are competing for ratings. Especially late night variety, its pretty much becomes a glorified infomercial with selective product placement. The rise of those shows will certainly attract casual viewer (who are still up at time) while with recent transformation of Idols industry to stress "down-to-Earth" idols even have those idols being ACG otaku themselves. Many ACG otaku now doubles as Idol otaku. To this point, ACG otaku nowaday might be more selective on which to watch live which in turn impacts anime with lower profile so they can watch the Variety Shows that features idols like Idolling, Akabingo, Ariyoshi's AKB Republic, and the increase late night drama that features young idols. (BTW, those late night dramas also starts to feature more and more manga adaptions like Rokudenashi BLUES, Detective Conan, Kurohyo: Ryu ga Gotoku Shinsho, Mirai Nikki, etc)


Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Even otaku-oriented shows haven't done all that well of late. Look at the figures for Sengoku Collection, Medaka Box, or Daily Lives of Highschool Boys. The latter reached ratings in the low ones on occasion; the others struggled to break 0.5. In comparison to those figures, the ratings for noitaminA, while low in historical perspective, may actually be pretty decent. Still whether advertisers will buy time in a show that reaches 1.5% of the audience is another question entirely. They might be persuaded if that audience is sufficiently distinctive and not likely to watch other types of television programming or be reachable via other media channels. (Sports plays that role with respect to the hard-to-reach young male demographic here in America; I suspect that's true globally as well.) I have no idea whether that applies to the anime viewing audience in general, or the noitaminA audience in particular.
That I agree, but in case of pure anime shows, they still tie-in products and source material to fall back on. The question does .5-1 rating capable of sustaining merchandise sell and CM revenue?

If it can, then noitaminA would be fine as long as other type shows doesn't out rate it. If those variety shows did out rate noitaminA, than is 1.5 enough to support the slot? After all majority of those late night variety were much cheaper to produce than outsourcing to studio in order to create anime.
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Old 2012-07-07, 07:20   Link #1128
karice67
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
You pretty much answered your question. This basically cross branding or cross marketing. It happens when there is two or more beneficiaries and products.

*snip*
(+)

That's besides the point, the main point here (for marketing) is exposure. Who sees/read them doesn't matter, as long as they do watch/read them.
Who is being marketed to is important, because even if there is exposure, if it's not in the right place, you're not actually going to reach your target group.

To me, tourism-associated marketing is marketing primarily to anime fans. Twitter, online etc also involves marketing to particular types of audiences. Heck, any advertising involving anime images is going to be marketing to anime viewers - hard-core or casual. The question is: how to get the attention of the people who would normally simply dismiss an advertisement that uses an anime image?

Hence, one of my arguments is that, to appeal to a more general audience, they're going to need different strategies. That is, I think AnoHana used different marketing strategies from HanaIro, which is how it got to the more general audience that its producer was talking about after its run.



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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
These two sort of related, basically the artist goes on music show and they'll drop the names of show here and there. Also when the PV was airing there'll be message that the song was used in this program as OP/ED.

*snip*
Er...as you pointed out, the song and PV used to market the show would have been the cover song that was actually used in the anime and its PV, not the originals from 10 years ago. I.e. it would have been the new artistes (the three seiyuu, in this case) that would have gone on music shows to name drop and talk about the anime. The significance of the original is simply that the familiar tune would have gotten its fans, the ones from 10 years ago, paying attention to the new artistes and the new cover.

----

Anyways, I agree that it's better that we both stop, though for different reasons. One of them is that I don't even know what you're trying to argue anymore; the other is that we're still not really in agreement on the product that is marketed or to whom it is being marketed; and whether that matters or not.
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Old 2012-07-07, 09:16   Link #1129
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Honey & Clover, Hataraki Man, Antique Bakery, Nodame, all had real live drama or movies that adds to their fanbase that would attract viewers.
There's a causality problem with this argument. For Hataraki Man and Honey and Clover, the anime version preceded the live-action version. In the case of Antique Bakery, the live-action version came first, but it aired seven years before the anime, so I doubt there was much connection between the two. Only Nodame Cantabile fits the model of an audience of live-action viewers later choosing to watch the anime adaptation as well.
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Old 2012-07-07, 10:37   Link #1130
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my last post on the marketing part unless you have something new:

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Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Who is being marketed to is important, because even if there is exposure, if it's not in the right place, you're not actually going to reach your target group.
The problem here that in marketing sense, any exposure is marketing. The so call target audience is simply a way to limit expense (which I mentioned), if that cost line (budget) is not broken, then you keep marketing to people regardless of the buyers.

Let's put this way, right now there is 100 people and your product is a bag of beams selling at $10 each. Let's assume that historically 10% of people buys beams.

In a perfect world, the ideal marketing strategy is to advertise to all 100 people, period.

Here is where target group comes in:

Since this is not a perfect world, and there is cost associated to advertising, the concept of a target group is created. That's assume that it's a $1 for every person a TV commercial is able to reach. In that case to market to all 100 people cost $100. Since ultimately only 10 people will buy the beams. You are not making any money.

Now, through market research and historical data, you realized that a group of 30 people with similar traits is likely to buy at 20% rate. There fore instead of spending $100 to make sure you reach everyone, you isolate the market, spending $30 and have those 6 people to buy beam. This way you ends up with +$30 profit.

Now here comes cost line and budget.

Say you are given $50 for marketing, you know that spending $30 would like to net you 6 buyers. What do you do? Spend $30 and save $20 for next time? NO!!!

What you do is spend the other $20 and hopefully the 4 eventual buyers are among those 20 people that you were able to reach.


Which brings us to mass advertising:

Now, let's say that you found a way to reach 90 people with $60 in this case, marketer will go to the boss and say we need extra $10 and spend all $60 to reach 90 people even if they don't know the purchase rate of those 90 people. The thought process here is that even if we don't know the buy rate of those 90 people, we do know that the ultimate buy rate is 10%, so it'll like be around 9 buyers and if lucky all ten buyers are among those 90 that the message was able to reach or even better, your message somehow able to get 12 people to buy. In that case, congratulation, you just expanded your market share.

Of course there is risk involved, your return might end up to be 8 people or less, but that is the inherit risk of marketing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
To me, tourism-associated marketing is marketing primarily to anime fans. Twitter, online etc also involves marketing to particular types of audiences. Heck, any advertising involving anime images is going to be marketing to anime viewers - hard-core or casual. The question is: how to get the attention of the people who would normally simply dismiss an advertisement that uses an anime image?
The point you are forgetting here is that your product IS ANIME. You can't just say that all anime poster is aimed toward anime fan and leave it at that. It's like saying all poster with Coca Cola symbols are marketed towards soft drinks drinkers only.

The people you simply dismiss advertisement with anime image on it is not going to change their mind period.

The only way it attract them is through thing that interest them. And that's where cross-marketing comes in. People like hot spring saw the promotion that is running in local area, got their interest piked so once they got back they check out anime to see what the fuzz is about or people who like watching news, saw the news of the event and remembers the great time they had in spring and decides to check out the anime to see if the local is faithfully adapted. That is where the win-win situation I was talking about coming from.

In Coca Cola poster case, that is where you get celebrities to endorse it for you. The hope is that somehow the Pepsi royalists who usually discard Coca Cola posters, will give Cola a shot because their favorite celebrities in on the poster. On the other hand, the celebrities hoping that by being on Cola poster, Cola royalists who hates that particular celebrity will change their mind and become fan.

Either way, you are giving marketing too much of a credit. For the perfect marketing effort, junk mails, the purchase rate is 1-2% on average. Once you isolates the markets to improve purchase rate, it also means that the purchase rate for none target groups will decline toward zero.

To put more blatantly, having posters in the prefecture is not going to make out-of prefecture people to come to hot spring what it will be is attract people in the prefecture to watch the anime and drive up ratings. on the other hand, the anime is reaching crowds that tourism guide can't reach and make anime crowds to be interested in the Hot Spring at that area. If everything works out the way it was planed, and is become a social events, it'll start to get people who are neither anime fans or live in the local to start get interest in one of the two choice. Once the pick one, they are now in the bubble and help make this money bubble to grew bigger.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Hence, one of my arguments is that, to appeal to a more general audience, they're going to need different strategies. That is, I think AnoHana used different marketing strategies from HanaIro, which is how it got to the more general audience that its producer was talking about after its run.
Exactly what did AnoHana did that was different from HanaIro in terms of marketing?

You just say all anime image is market to anime fans only, so what were they advertising then? The ED song? But you don't know the ED song unless to see the anime and unlike HanaIro's OP/ED where there band's music video that can be use as a marketing tool that fits your "no anime image" concept.

Beside, you don't change marketing strategies, anyway. The only time you changes it is when the result is not up to your expectation.

If the result is there, what you do is to add more resource and doing the same thing to the group you didn't reach before till now.

Besides, from the reason you gave, the only thing AnoHana had was 15s CMs, serialization novels, and posters in station, which HanaIro all have and more from the things I listed like manga serial, artist debut, an organized festival etc..

Unless you can list more tool that AnoHana has and HanaIro don't, this debate is pointless for us to keep arguing about since like I said, I'm willing to reserve my judgement on AnoHana after look through the marketing effort and process.


Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Er...as you pointed out, the song and PV used to market the show would have been the cover song that was actually used in the anime and its PV, not the originals from 10 years ago. I.e. it would have been the new artistes (the three seiyuu, in this case) that would have gone on music shows to name drop and talk about the anime. The significance of the original is simply that the familiar tune would have gotten its fans, the ones from 10 years ago, paying attention to the new artistes and the new cover.
Then all it does is what Nano Ripe do for HanaIro isn't it? Besides, the OP for Anohana performed better than ED anyway, it's highest spot on Oricon was #9 while the ED cover was 10.

On the other hand HanaIro's 1st OP is #15 and 2nd OP is #34 and a insert song is #59.

With that been said, I'll change my view and give Anohana a slight edge. But that is doesn't show Anohana did that HanaIro doesn't do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Anyways, I agree that it's better that we both stop, though for different reasons. One of them is that I don't even know what you're trying to argue (is it 'HanaIro is marketed at anime viewers' or 'HanaIro is marketed as the mass market'? Because you've said both...); the other is that we're still not really in agreement on the product that is marketed or to whom it is being marketed; and whether that matters or not.

The bold part.

The disagreement was on Anohana, which I state in last post that I'm welling to give it benefit of doubt and after this post I'm willing to give the edge to Anohana on music part, though I still doesn't tell me what Anohana did that didn't HanaIro didn't do marketing wise.

As for the marketing part, well I've told what I can from a professional view, if you still can't see it, then as you said, there is no point to continue and let's just agree to disagree.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
There's a causality problem with this argument. For Hataraki Man and Honey and Clover, the anime version preceded the live-action version. In the case of Antique Bakery, the live-action version came first, but it aired seven years before the anime, so I doubt there was much connection between the two. Only Nodame Cantabile fits the model of an audience of live-action viewers later choosing to watch the anime adaptation as well.
My bad then, I thought both Hataraki Man and Honey&Clover drama were just ahead of anime, I was going through my memory and didn't bother to double check.

As for Antique Bakery, I knew it was somewhere in 2000-2002, but IMO that still had impact for name recognition on none manga readers who did watch the drama, it was a damn good drama with Abe in it.

In that case, the lost of viewership is more drastic than I thought and the competition for non-anime is probably higher as well.

In addition to that, maybe it have something to do with economics as well, there are not that many people able to stay late past midnight with all the increase of work hours.
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Old 2012-07-07, 13:49   Link #1131
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Undertaker, I'd just like to correct your use of the term "mass tourism." What HanaIro was doing isn't a typical mass tourism pattern. Mass tourism involves transportation and travel agencies working together to bring customers tourist packages. Mass tourism is company-tourist oriented.

This is not the case with HanaIro. In this case, it's a local initiative that's trying to tap into the informational infrastructure, mostly the internet communities, which ties to individual preferences of potential customers. So this is otaku-oriented tourism by definition.

If you want to know more about these differences, check out Anime Pilgrimage and Local Tourism Promotion: An Experience of Washimiya Town, the Sacred Place for Anime “Lucky Star” Fans paper.
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Old 2012-07-07, 18:05   Link #1132
karice67
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
*snip*(on mass advertising)
cyth explained what I'm getting at, and I believe the same applies for all the examples of marketing you have described: soft drink promotion, etc etc. That kind of advertising targets anime fans, trying to get them to buy those products. I grant you that some of the other users may check out the anime because of that, but there is limited effect compared to the other way around.

You tell me that, in this case, the product is ANIME. Well, to me, the product appears to be all the things that they are using the anime to promote - tourism, soft drinks, food. The reverse effect, where soft drink buyers, visitors to the hot spring etc check out the anime, is just a bonus.

It is also important to remember the anime production model. Sponsors put up funding for an anime and what they get in return is, typically, the use of the anime as a marketing tool for their own products (tourism, drinks, food, toys) etc. These sponsors are the ones who determine how those marketing campaigns run, though there might be some agreement on how the anime could be presented on those products (e.g. they might have a short description of the show that aims to inform a more general audience about the anime) so as to draw the occasional 'outsider' to give the show a try.

The question is: did the AnoHana production team do something different, something that is aimed directly at non-anime viewers, who are NOT going to buy other products such as the opening and ending singles (I prefer the ZONE version of the song myself, so I'd actually buy that - it's seiyuu fans who would have bought the cover) or BDs/DVDs, but who would just watch the show as it was airing? I.e. Did they actually attempt to market the ANIME itself, as opposed to marketing other products through the anime?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Beside, you don't change marketing strategies, anyway. The only time you changes it is when the result is not up to your expectation.
If someone came to you with a brief asking for a campaign that targeted non-anime viewers, trying to get them to simply watch a show, and you went with the usual (exemplified by anime-tourism, advertising in ACG magazines and on ACG radios), do you think you've satisfied that brief?

Moving on what actually happened, our difference in opinion about who HanaIro was marketed to might be an issue.

I maintain that the marketing campaigns involving HanaIro were aimed primarily at anime viewers - hardcore and casual. Hence, if I'm trying to see who AnoHana was marketed to, the fact that there was less marketing of the HanaIro sort actually suggests to me that it may not have been marketed as hard to the anime viewing audience! That is, looking for the same types of advertisement is merely going to tell me how much AnoHana was marketed to anime viewers in comparison to HanaIro (or whatever other series). Do note, however, that there have been several AnoHana projects directed at anime fans in the last year as well - the seiyuu festival, goods and exhibitions at the noitaminA store etc etc.

I did a Factiva search on both titles for the year (just in case: Factiva is database of newspaper/magazine publications, both print and online - though it doesn't seem to cover entertainment/hobby magazines).

HanaIro comes out on top in terms of mentions at 68, with AnoHana at 24. However, most of the HanaIro stuff comes from publications out of Ishikawa prefecture, and are focused on the anime side of it. The earliest publication in a major newspaper seems to have been a Yomiuri Shimbun article in July, focused on how the anime has brought customers to hot springs in Ishikawa. This seems to support my argument that the advertising associated with HanaIro is, as cyth noted, "otaku-orientated tourism" and so on.

In contrast, AnoHana appeared in the Mainichi Shimbun in a print article as early as May. Also interesting is the fact that it appeared in a set column ("Mantan Place"), which introduces pop culture, including movies, TV, manga, anime and games to the Mainichi Shimbun audience. The focus of the article on AnoHana was on a "fantasy about youth" - the word anime doesn't appear in the headline (although it did when the same column advertised Fractale, a noitaminA title from the previous season).

There were also a few articles in May about ZONE reforming for a limited period, with live performances scheduled for August, in conjunction with the anime.

This suggests to me that the producers were making some efforts to appeal to a more general audience, and the fact that noitaminA already had an established presence in a major newspaper may have helped. Factiva doesn't tell me anything about print ads (as opposed to articles) that appear in newspapers, but it doesn't seem a stretch to imagine that there might have been some advertisement associated with that column before May. And I would say that it is possible to market an anime without relying on its images - AnoHana has made excellent use of its flower motifs, and I can imagine a print ad using it, focused on the story, mounted in a newspaper etc.

I would guess, also, that interest in AnoHana would have been spread by word-of-mouth, in which case, hooking a number of casual anime viewers (and some of the hard-core otaku) might have been enough. But for it to keep the interest a more general audience, that's where the importance of any emphasis on the story comes in.

----

But if you maintain that HanaIro was marketed to a mass audience, we're never going to see eye to eye on this, so let's just agree to disagree. We have also derailed this thread for long enough.


p.s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
You just say all anime image is market to anime fans only, so what were they advertising then? The ED song? But you don't know the ED song unless to see the anime and unlike HanaIro's OP/ED where there band's music video that can be use as a marketing tool that fits your "no anime image" concept.
Er...people still listen to the radio, you know... My point about the song has always been that its appeal and 'edge' for advertising to a more general audience would have been audio as opposed to visual.
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Old 2012-07-07, 21:25   Link #1133
Undertaker
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Originally Posted by cyth View Post
Undertaker, I'd just like to correct your use of the term "mass tourism." What HanaIro was doing isn't a typical mass tourism pattern. Mass tourism involves transportation and travel agencies working together to bring customers tourist packages. Mass tourism is company-tourist oriented.

This is not the case with HanaIro. In this case, it's a local initiative that's trying to tap into the informational infrastructure, mostly the internet communities, which ties to individual preferences of potential customers. So this is otaku-oriented tourism by definition.

If you want to know more about these differences, check out Anime Pilgrimage and Local Tourism Promotion: An Experience of Washimiya Town, the Sacred Place for Anime “Lucky Star” Fans paper.
eh, I never used the term "mass tourism" in my posts.

And I agree with you assessment, I'm just stressing on that in Hana Iro's case there is also an economical relation between the local and anime studio results in a cross marketing situation that was slightly different from say K-On effect, even if the result was the same.

The debate was about the intend, ie: the marketing front.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
snip*

You tell me that, in this case, the product is ANIME. Well, to me, the product appears to be all the things that they are using the anime to promote - tourism, soft drinks, food. The reverse effect, where soft drink buyers, visitors to the hot spring etc check out the anime, is just a bonus.

It is also important to remember the anime production model. Sponsors put up funding for an anime and what they get in return is, typically, the use of the anime as a marketing tool for their own products (tourism, drinks, food, toys) etc. These sponsors are the ones who determine how those marketing campaigns run, though there might be some agreement on how the anime could be presented on those products (e.g. they might have a short description of the show that aims to inform a more general audience about the anime) so as to draw the occasional 'outsider' to give the show a try.

*snip
And you are taking the anime studio/TV station out of equation when you shouldn't be.

Unless the TV station and anime studio are both owned by the local business and government, they are separate entities.

For the local involvement, the product here tourism. They are using anime as tool for their return on investment. On the other hand, the station/studio's product is anime, its get free use of locals, history, location, names, resource, as well as the the advertising effort of locals as free promotion for the anime and rating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
The question is: did the AnoHana production team do something different, something that is aimed directly at non-anime viewers, who are NOT going to buy other products such as the opening and ending singles (I prefer the ZONE version of the song myself, so I'd actually buy that - it's seiyuu fans who would have bought the cover) or BDs/DVDs, but who would just watch the show as it was airing? I.e. Did they actually attempt to market the ANIME itself, as opposed to marketing other products through the anime?
This part I agree, and this is where we differ, ATM, I don't see any proof that AnoHana 's marketing effort is more multi-facet than HanaIro. So that agree to disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
If someone came to you with a brief asking for a campaign that targeted non-anime viewers, trying to get them to simply watch a show, and you went with the usual (exemplified by anime-tourism, advertising in ACG magazines and on ACG radios), do you think you've satisfied that brief?
Than that brief should being done before the show when on air or earlier, before the show even created.

Which is what I was saying before. If Anohana was intended to market toward the mass all along, there would be much more marketing effort BEFORE the show started, but there no sign that the show got any major push before that.

Once the show when on air, you don't changed the market strategy unless the result (ratings) was bad. Only thing you do is that you increase the marketing effort toward the secondary markets in hope to eventually reach everyone on planet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
Moving on what actually happened, our difference in opinion about who HanaIro was marketed to might be an issue.

*snip*

But if you maintain that HanaIro was marketed to a mass audience, we're never going to see eye to eye on this, so let's just agree to disagree. We have also derailed this thread for long enough.
Agreed, so let's stop here on HanaIro/Anohana debate.

Just quick notes on a few thing:

The part about the news is interesting, , especially the date. But from my view, that is HanaIro article was an added bonus resulted from a successful economic bubble.

It actually a great example to show the fundamental of marketing that you seem to misunderstood.

In you eye that article is aimed toward anime viewers because it has anime mentioned in headline. When marketing wise, that article is actually aiming at EVERY Yomiuri Shimbun "readers", not just anime fan.

Who reads that article isn't the point nor the target. The point is that the entire readership of Yomiuri Shimbun got a "potential chance" to read the article.

Like I say, the average result a marketing message reaching customer is 1-2%, that is not the percentage of people purchasing, that is the percentage of people who sees and responded with interest but still not necessarily to buy.

That it what marketing does.

As for word-of-mouth, again, valid marketing tool. Though without data and research surveys, there is not enough evidence to suggest that was case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by karice67 View Post
p.s. Er...people still listen to the radio, you know... My point about the song has always been that its appeal and 'edge' for advertising to a more general audience would have been audio as opposed to visual.
I do know, and but so does Nano Ripe's music and they got an added bonus being an actual debuting band that is more likely to appear live in music related programs that three VAs. (though VAs do get added bonus for potentially hosting their own radio shows)

That is really one of my issue here, is that the things you listed like music and word-of-mouth. You seem to suggest that these things is Anohana's competitive advantage that Hanasaku can't do when in reality, Hanasaku have both of these factors and there is no proof to suggest otherwise.

I'm will to take a step back saying that both Anohana and Hanasaku uses those approach, but you seemed unwilling to even think that it could be the case...


Well, I guess that's that, sorry about more marketing lectures, but my professional pride is on the line. I didn't took over 80 credits of marketing/management in university just to be told that I don't know the basic about marketing....
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Old 2012-07-08, 01:53   Link #1134
karice67
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Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
It actually a great example to show the fundamental of marketing that you seem to misunderstood.
I don't think I misunderstand, because I am talking about 'getting people to see the show as it is airing', NOT after. I'm not even talking about buying the product, just about watching it as it is airing. That's what noitaminA was established to try to do - increase viewership amongst people who were more likely to watch dramas (and perhaps, variety shows): it wasn't about selling anime (or anime-associated) products. That's what I mean by marketing to a general audience. That's why, to me, it's more significant that noitaminA already had an established presence in major papers, because that would have enabled them to reach out to the general audience there before and during the show's broadcast.

Whether HanaIro did advertise in those papers, I don't know - I've always looked at it as a more otaku-oriented series, and what you described to me of the marketing campaigns that centered around it only serve to support that, according to my understanding of the broad Japanese market.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
That is really one of my issue here, is that the things you listed like music and word-of-mouth. You seem to suggest that these things is Anohana's competitive advantage that Hanasaku can't do when in reality, Hanasaku have both of these factors and there is no proof to suggest otherwise.
HanaIro would have had word-of-mouth appeal too, I totally accept that. And the question of word-of-mouth amongst whom can only be answered by someone who has researched that in Japan, so I'm not fussed about it.

But I am saying that the way that the music could have and arguably would have been used as advertisement would have been different, because of the differences between the talents and the fame of the songs used.

Let me give another example (NB: this isn't an example I expect would actually be used in advertising). Try thinking about this from the consumer's point of view.

Say that, in creating TV spots to advertise a particular film, advertisers have used two different songs, one for each of two CMs. One of them is the movie theme song, a new pop tune by a new artist that is just starting to hit the airwaves. Another is a much older, but much more famous song, for example's sake, John Lennon's Imagine. Going just by the music, which potential consumer might be more interested in the CM using the pop song? And which potential consumer might be more interested in the CM using Imagine?

"Hana no Iro" is more like the first song, and the new version of "secret base" is more like Imagine. There are different associations, and hence, different potentials for marketing. Unless you want to tell me that older, famous songs are used in the same way as new artistes and songs in the marketing industry?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
I'm will to take a step back saying that both Anohana and Hanasaku uses those approach, but you seemed unwilling to even think that it could be the case...
Basically, I disagree with the argument that most of HanaIro's marketing was directed at the mass audience.

Mass audience in Kanazawa, surrounding areas, and along that train line, yes.
'Mass audience' amongst anime fans, yes.
Mass audience in most of Japan most major population centres, no.

Hence, I disagree with the use of HanaIro's marketing campaigns as a standard to judge whether AnoHana was marketed to a mass audience or not.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertaker View Post
Well, I guess that's that, sorry about more marketing lectures, but my professional pride is on the line. I didn't took over 80 credits of marketing/management in university just to be told that I don't know the basic about marketing....
I think the main issue is that we disagree about the product being marketed and thus the aim of the marketing campaign. You talk about sales, tourism, etc. I'm talking about the boosting of viewership as the anime was airing.

Unless marketing to achieve those different aims is the same? Honestly, if you tell me that the marketing campaigns to achieve these different aims is the same, I'll accept it.

Even if I'll keep wondering why in the world advertising theory would be that illogical. And if I were actually in marketing, I'd set out to find out if the relevant theories actually hold.

You also gave the argument that most of the advertising would have been done in ACG-related media. Well, for AnoHana, given what noitaminA purports one of its important target audiences to be, I wouldn't be surprised they didn't advertise much there at the start - if that was indeed the case. My question remains: in terms of reaching out to a more general audience, what did they do? (edit: here's something (hxxp://yaraon.net/blog-entry-1652.html) - third week in (late April 2011), a three page special in the Saitama paper, with a major focus on it being a story about "human relationships" and wanting the show grounded in a feeling of living in the area in question) I'm not in a position to provide any concrete answers - although I think the fact that AnoHana had many TV spots is quite important - but a focus on ACG-related media can't answer that either.
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Last edited by karice67; 2012-07-08 at 03:26.
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Old 2012-07-08, 22:31   Link #1135
Atarashii
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Old 2012-07-12, 21:36   Link #1136
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Old 2012-07-12, 23:28   Link #1137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHT View Post
07/12/12
ノイタミナ 2.2
Forum Rule 1.0 requires the use of English on these boards. Please translate the show name if you can, or push it through a translator like Google Translate to get an English approximation. Sometimes they sound pretty silly, but usually show titles don't come out too badly.

By the way, Google Translate tells me it's "noitaminA". That's an 0.4 increase over last week's rating in Katapan's table.

By the way, it looks like whoever was keeping the pages at Geocities has stopped doing it as of mid-May. There is no "2012b" page yet either, with figures for July. I think it's time I archive all these before they vanish one day.
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Old 2012-07-13, 03:09   Link #1138
Katapan
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noitaminA ratings up to 12/07/12:

Wk. 1Wk. 2Wk. 3Wk. 4Wk. 5Wk. 6Wk. 7Wk. 8Wk. 9Wk. 10Wk. 11Wk. 12Avg
Tatami Galaxy - House of Five Leaves -1.51.61.72.12.51.51.82.82.02.32.32.52.05
Moyashimon (drama) - Shiki3.42.42.62.32.72.32.62.52.92.02.5-2.56
Kuragehime - Shiki2.3-2.23.12.82.71.82.41.62.52.12.72.38
Fractale - Hourou Musuko1.91.81.62.1-1.52.11.91.81.30.92.51.76
[C] - AnoHana1.62.53.92.82.52.92.22.02.42.93.2-2.63
Usagi Drop - NO. 61.22.42.12.62.12.5-2.31.62.41.62.52.11
UN-GO - Guilty Crown2.62.41.32.72.61.82.01.92.01.73.0-2.18
Thermae Romae - Guilty Crown2.12.61.8---------2.17
Black★Rock Shooter - Guilty Crown---1.82.32.11.71.42.02.41.5-1.90
Kids on the Slope - Tsuritama2.62.32.32.11.71.52.10.91.71.51.62.51.90
Moyashimon Returns - Natsuyuki Rendez-vous1.82.22.00

Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
By the way, it looks like whoever was keeping the pages at Geocities has stopped doing it as of mid-May. There is no "2012b" page yet either, with figures for July. I think it's time I archive all these before they vanish one day.
This person has been doing it in large chunks for the past few years. It was easier in the past when all ratings came out on a weekly basis, but it's been much more irregular in the past: we haven't even gotten the usual TV Tokyo ratings (which encompass many late-night shows, prime-time Jump shows and the likes) for the past few weeks. I am pretty sure it'll be updated whenever someone drops by the National Library to dig these ratings up.
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Old 2012-07-13, 21:18   Link #1139
Undertaker
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I wonder what was the reason for the 0.9 rating in wk.8 last season. The spike during season change is fairly common, but that on week dip was really weird.

2.2 isn't bad, the question now is wether it can maintain that level before the Olympic hits.
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Old 2012-07-17, 06:01   Link #1140
Atarashii
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エイガテンゴク 25:59-27:50 トキヲカケル 1.5

ワンピ再 4.4 (OP rerun)
GOチャギントン 3.3 (Chuggington)
トリコ 6.8 (Toriko)
ワンピ 8.9 (OP)
チビマル 10.0 (Chibi)
サザエ 16.1 (Sazae)

ドラエモン 10.2 (Doraemon)
クレシン 9.9 (Shin-chan)
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セイントセイヤ 1.6 (SS Omega)
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