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View Poll Results: Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 7 Rating
Perfect 10 24 25.81%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 34 36.56%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 27.96%
7 out of 10 : Good 7 7.53%
6 out of 10 : Average 1 1.08%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 1.08%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 93. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-05-19, 20:59   Link #81
MeggieMay
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
They are clearly sentient. I think the word you are looking for is sapient.

They seem sapient enough to make space fortresses, carriers and do spacefaring
Where/when did the show say or show that? I know someone said Ledo said as much but I don't remember that said or shown in the series. I thought the Hideouze were shown to just be floating out in space eating stuff in episode 1, not having space ships. Can someone direct me to where it is at in the CR version of the show? Also, if this information comes from the official site, someone please point me over to where I can find it there (I have to switch browsers to go look at the site).

BTW, I always meant to say that the Hideouze reminded me of the antagonists space alien species in Gunbuster, FWIW, which I just finished seeing earlier this year (though I guess those were suppose to be based on insects, not aquatic life). Either way, beings don't have to be all that sapient to have strategies to defend itself. Insects and aquatic life both (think Ants, Bees and I've seen some recent stuff in the news about fish that have been shown to move the way they do so they can best round up food). What we saw the Whalesquid do could have been a primal reaction to the death of their fellow pod memember verses a thought out military campaign (because Chamber admitted, in his own way, that the WhaleSquid and the Hideouze are related but not the same and not the same is important here in my opinion). I do think the Hideouze are more sapient than say sharks but I cann't shake the feeling that one of the big problems with is that they are really just top of the food chain creatures who do what they do to survive and can't be negotiated with because they aren't sapient enough to do so. However, if they're building space ships that shows that they should be able to be approached in some manner to negotiate some sort of way to co-exist.

At this point I think my main issue with what's being presented in this episode is that neither Ledo or Garganitia take on how to deal with things seems to be the correct one. Ledo's wrong, IMO, in that he doesn't have enough tactical backup to start up a war but Garganitia is also wrong in trying to avoid the Whalesquids completely and not try and re-gain some of their lost tech. A lot of how things need to be dealt with depends on just how Sapient the Hideouze are and if they do have the ability to communicate, what there take is on co-existence. As another poster mentioned earlier, the Alliance's situation and the one on Earth isn't exactly the same. If the Hideiouze aren't sapient enough to communicate then the Alliance may not have a good way to approach the issue other than the one they took. Even if they are sapient enough to communicate, the Hideouze in space may have no reason to not just annihilate the humans (they may see them as nothing more than bugs or cows - something they don't even think about or as a food commodity). However, the Whalesquid isn't in the same situation. Space is large and infinite, a planet like Earth is not. IMO a balance could be struck here in both parties interests, where there may be no good reason for either side in Space to be able to do that.
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Old 2013-05-19, 20:59   Link #82
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Regarding that map. I'd like to advance the hypothesis that perhaps it isn't "land" what we see there.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:08   Link #83
MeggieMay
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Regarding that map. I'd like to advance the hypothesis that perhaps it isn't "land" what we see there.
That's a reasonable hypothesis, as well. The reason I'm not leaning towards it at this point is that in my opinion the shapes on the map look too organic to be ship flotillas. There's also a map in the room a bit later (it's on the other large wall) of Gargantia and you can see how looks from a aerial view. Ship fleets don't really have room to curve around like some of the "islands" on the map seem to be doing. So that's why I'm leaning towards those being islands, though after re-looking over the maps it is possible that the land in them isn't completely above water at this point (but that land is awfully close to breaking out above the ocean surface, if that's the case).
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:09   Link #84
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Regarding that map. I'd like to advance the hypothesis that perhaps it isn't "land" what we see there.
Are you suggesting those are sea mounts? Doesn't make sense why they are brown on blue.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:15   Link #85
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Oh yeah, I agree that Ledo probably doesn't think that it is a suicidal mission, but that's precisely because he doesn't recognize it as such that I criticize him.
This is probably due to the fact that he is an indoctrinated soldier through an thorough, He can only think about killing Hideauze and doesn't have much of a grasp of what strategy is.
I'm pretty sure he even disagreed with the Alliance's decision to retreat after the failed attempt to destroy the Hideauze nest in the first episode. If it was for him he would have ordered to keep attacking.


I wasn't particularly surprised. I think that the Gargantians are being misunderstood a lot.
They aren't fundamentalist pacifist, and they aren't superstitious barbarians either.
They are simply pretty pragmatic and make a priority out of avoiding conflicts.

It's not like they revere the whalesquids, they simply know that it's better to leave them alone if they want to avoid problems. But in the end what they value the most is their own life and their well-being. If the whalesquids decide to kill them all, then they'll feel that they have no choice but to fight back.

If they however are given the option then they rather steer clear of them even if that means renouncing to powerful lost technologies.

Their attitude with the pirates is similar. They know they can't avoid conflicts with them, so they try to keep those conflicts to the minimum, even if that means that once in a while they will have to pay a "tribute" to them in the form of stolen salvaged goods.

Even that is a form of co-existence. Not something that I quite agree with though. it's simply... pragmatic and completely devoid of ideals.
Actually Chamber and Red know about strategy. He wouldn't be a good soldier if he didn't. The Alliance wants soldiers not rabid dogs. In the first episode, he recognized that they were losing even before they called a retreat and he disobeyed orders to rescue fellow soldiers who were caught by the Hideauze and couldn't get out. Also, since his CO also sacrificed his life despite regulations, it's obvious that the Alliance's soldiers are not automatons. They are just soldiers dedicated to their cause, and it happens to be all they have every known. They are soldiers who have never gotten a chance to experience civilian life.

Another indication that Red knows strategy is that he took the time to plan with Chamber, find out if there was anyway he could get reinforcements, he then went and asked Bevel about their numbers, ways, and how they travel, and other important strategic information. He asked for that info for a reason. If he didn't know strategy, he would have just charged out there guns blazing, wasting energy and time.

As for Gargantia's philosophies, I can see that they are suited very well for surviving, and for several generations, they've been surviving. However, they are not living, which is quite a different thing. They think they are, but they're not. They are stuck in a continual rut, never changing and afraid to do so because it will upset the status quo, the balance that they've maintained to survive. And yet, they will never be able to truly live as long as they are afraid to make something more of themselves despite their fears.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:19   Link #86
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
Actually Chamber and Red know about strategy. He wouldn't be a good soldier if he didn't. The Alliance wants soldiers not rabid dogs. In the first episode, he recognized that they were losing even before they called a retreat and he disobeyed orders to rescue fellow soldiers who were caught by the Hideauze and couldn't get out. Also, since his CO also sacrificed his life despite regulations, it's obvious that the Alliance's soldiers are not automatons. They are just soldiers dedicated to their cause, and it happens to be all they have every known. They are soldiers who have never gotten a chance to experience civilian life.

Another indication that Red knows strategy is that he took the time to plan with Chamber, find out if there was anyway he could get reinforcements, he then went and asked Bevel about their numbers, ways, and how they travel, and other important strategic information. He asked for that info for a reason. If he didn't know strategy, he would have just charged out there guns blazing, wasting energy and time.

As for Gargantia's philosophies, I can see that they are suited very well for surviving, and for several generations, they've been surviving. However, they are not living, which is quite a different thing. They think they are, but they're not. They are stuck in a continual rut, never changing and afraid to do so because it will upset the status quo, the balance that they've maintained to survive. And yet, they will never be able to truly live as long as they are afraid to make something more of themselves despite their fears.
Not only that but he didn't do anything once he saw how many there were. You could see it in his face
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:31   Link #87
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:33   Link #88
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
Actually Chamber and Red know about strategy. He wouldn't be a good soldier if he didn't. The Alliance wants soldiers not rabid dogs. In the first episode, he recognized that they were losing even before they called a retreat and he disobeyed orders to rescue fellow soldiers who were caught by the Hideauze and couldn't get out. Also, since his CO also sacrificed his life despite regulations, it's obvious that the Alliance's soldiers are not automatons. They are just soldiers dedicated to their cause, and it happens to be all they have every known. They are soldiers who have never gotten a chance to experience civilian life.

Another indication that Red knows strategy is that he took the time to plan with Chamber, find out if there was anyway he could get reinforcements, he then went and asked Bevel about their numbers, ways, and how they travel, and other important strategic information. He asked for that info for a reason. If he didn't know strategy, he would have just charged out there guns blazing, wasting energy and time.
In my opinion that's tactic and not strategy. A tactician cannot see anything beyond the battlefield, a strategist sees the whole picture including future battlefields and even diplomacy.

Ledo as a soldier has a good understanding of battle tactics. He therefore knows the importance of intelligence and planning. However the end of a tactic is always winning the battle, not the war.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:34   Link #89
Irenesharda
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Originally Posted by MeggieMay View Post
BTW, I always meant to say that the Hideouze reminded me of the antagonists space alien species in Gunbuster, FWIW, which I just finished seeing earlier this year (though I guess those were suppose to be based on insects, not aquatic life). Either way, beings don't have to be all that sapient to have strategies to defend itself. Insects and aquatic life both (think Ants, Bees and I've seen some recent stuff in the news about fish that have been shown to move the way they do so they can best round up food). What we saw the Whalesquid do could have been a primal reaction to the death of their fellow pod memember verses a thought out military campaign (because Chamber admitted, in his own way, that the WhaleSquid and the Hideouze are related but not the same and not the same is important here in my opinion). I do think the Hideouze are more sapient than say sharks but I cann't shake the feeling that one of the big problems with is that they are really just top of the food chain creatures who do what they do to survive and can't be negotiated with because they aren't sapient enough to do so. However, if they're building space ships that shows that they should be able to be approached in some manner to negotiate some sort of way to co-exist.

At this point I think my main issue with what's being presented in this episode is that neither Ledo or Garganitia take on how to deal with things seems to be the correct one. Ledo's wrong, IMO, in that he doesn't have enough tactical backup to start up a war but Garganitia is also wrong in trying to avoid the Whalesquids completely and not try and re-gain some of their lost tech. A lot of how things need to be dealt with depends on just how Sapient the Hideouze are and if they do have the ability to communicate, what there take is on co-existence. As another poster mentioned earlier, the Alliance's situation and the one on Earth isn't exactly the same. If the Hideiouze aren't sapient enough to communicate then the Alliance may not have a good way to approach the issue other than the one they took. Even if they are sapient enough to communicate, the Hideouze in space may have no reason to not just annihilate the humans (they may see them as nothing more than bugs or cows - something they don't even think about or as a food commodity). However, the Whalesquid isn't in the same situation. Space is large and infinite, a planet like Earth is not. IMO a balance could be struck here in both parties interests, where there may be no good reason for either side in Space to be able to do that.
Chamber states that the Hideauze of Earth are genetically the same but have adapted their outer shells for Earth seas where as the ones in space are outfitted for Space. So if they're genetically the same, they are all pretty much the same species. This means the ones on Earth are capable of the same things as the ones in space.

However, I do agree with you that Earth and the Alliance are in different situations. No matter who started it, at this point, there is no possible way for co-habitation for the Alliance. If there ever was a bridge, it's been burnt long ago.
There might be a possibility for Earth, but that depends on the nature of the Earth Hideauze and what they are really about. We really need more information about them.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:39   Link #90
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Spoiler for Episode 7:
they obviously need to attack, you think they can co-exist if you gotta POWER DOWN THE ENTIRE FLEET every time they come by cuz if you don't they gonna sink you?!
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:43   Link #91
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So you're welling to use your hyper advanced super weapon to strong arm a relatively primitive civilization? I don't know if I should call this evil or just general dickery...
They chose to point their weapons at Ledo. And to defend the Hideauze. So, while I'd be open to less radical solutions - yes, if they persist in behaving like enemies, they should be treated as enemies.

Besides, they've shown time and again that they don't have much respect for the one that uses overwhelming power on their behalf, but that they do for the one using overwhelming power against them.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:46   Link #92
Irenesharda
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In my opinion that's tactic and not strategy. A tactician cannot see anything beyond the battlefield, a strategist sees the whole picture including future battlefields and even diplomacy.

Ledo as a soldier has a good understanding of battle tactics. He therefore knows the importance of intelligence and planning. However the end of a tactic is always winning the battle, not the war.
"Tactics" is synonymous to "strategy".

Strategy- the science or art of combining and employing the means of war in planning and directing large military movements and operations.

Tactics- the art or science of disposing military or naval forces for battle and maneuvering them in battle.

A tactician works in the same capacity as a strategist. I am making a plan to win a battle or a war either on a small scale or a large one. You are saying that Red's strategy for fighting is only meant for a single battle not for the whole war. Someone else, usually a higher up would plan a larger strategy for winning the war. No, that was not Red's capacity in the army since he's only an ensign. However, he's not trying to win a war here. The Hideauze would have to be wiped out for that. He can however plan one battle at a time, which is really all he needs to do at this point.
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Old 2013-05-19, 21:49   Link #93
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Tactics and strategy are very different concepts, both in life generally and certainly in military terms. Kingdom has a very interesting discourse (from the unforgettable General Wang Qi) on just how different they are.
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:07   Link #94
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What Guardian Enzo said.

Strategy and tactics are commonly used as synonymous, but they can be used to specify very different concepts.

When I said that Ledo doesn't have a grasp of strategy I meant it in that specific sense.
Therefore the fact that Ledo is capable of planning doesn't invalidate my point.
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:10   Link #95
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Tactics and strategy are very different concepts, both in life generally and certainly in military terms. Kingdom has a very interesting discourse (from the unforgettable General Wang Qi) on just how different they are.
In terms of the way I was using them and in my thesaurus, they are synonymous. I interchange them as I feel fit. Sorry if there happened to be any confusion. I was merely pointing out that Red does know how to strategize and he doesn't go into battle without a plan as was suggested.
And I think it also depends on if you are using the word "tactics" in plural or singular, or if you are using it as a noun or verb.
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Old 2013-05-19, 22:17   Link #96
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I think what happens with Ledo (especially last week) is quite relavant because I think to some extent Suisei no Gargantia is intended to express the alienation of the current generation of young adults in Japan. In this instance quite literally, as Ledo is an alien on his ancestral home world - but I think that symbolizes the way many young Japanese feel. They have no connection to the world their parents made for them - their parents struggles and their prejudices mean little to them, and they enter a world where the virtual guarantee of lifelong economic security their parents and grandparents had is denied them. Of course they feel alienated - they're forced to make their way in a world someone else made, and they don't share its values. Japan is perpetually a struggle between the old and the new, between tradition and change, and I think the way Ledo feels as he struggles to make a life for himself is meant to express that. The frustration at the way he's "mismatched" to this world, the first feelings of serious romantic love, loneliness, intellectual curiosity - I think these are different themes for Gen to be putting on the front burner, and I think he should be taken at his word about what he hoped to accomplish with this series.
This episode also got me thinking about the underlying message the show may be intending to sent, but I had a different interpretation (yours may be more on point, though). I thought perhaps since we've been told this is a show for young adults entering the 'real world' we're seeing the contrast between living a more simple life and trying to be 'successful' in modern Western civilization. To have a stable career, to make lots of money, to accomplish lots of great things - this is the Spartan existence of Ledo's fleet. Ultimately, sacrifices are made for the greater cause, fun is cut to a minimum, while purpose and achievement are paramount.

On the other hand, you have the Gargantians, who represent a more simple, subdued living, not as driven, and without the grand purpose. They have a more carefree and at times more enjoyable life, but they'll never be as powerful or accomplished as the GA. They'll have to swallow their pride and accept the status quo, sometimes recognizing there are forces out there they can't much up against.

Then there's Ledo, who's experienced both, and with a taste for both sides, has to balance his priorities in each direction. I think this is pretty similar to what many people face today. People want to be successful, some people even want to be powerful, but of course everyone also wants to enjoy their life and spend time with their families and friends. Drift too far towards your career and the drive to succeed and you may end up living that Spartan Galactic Alliance lifestyle. Drift too far into carefree mode, and you might end up helpless against those who threaten you and without any purpose to your life. The ideal is to be somewhere in between and recognize the merit of having a bit of both philosophies guiding your behavior.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
They chose to point their weapons at Ledo. And to defend the Hideauze. So, while I'd be open to less radical solutions - yes, if they persist in behaving like enemies, they should be treated as enemies.

Besides, they've shown time and again that they don't have much respect for the one that uses overwhelming power on their behalf, but that they do for the one using overwhelming power against them.
It's for this reason I've found Ridget's character to be thoroughly vexing. I understand her place in the plot and even her perspective, but I'd like to see her knocked down a peg or two sometime.
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Old 2013-05-19, 23:07   Link #97
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Well an interesting development. Not surprising that the discovery of the Hideauze being the Sea Squids causes quite a change in the status quo. Makes you wonder what exactly the truth of the matter is. Are the Squids just the type to leave things be or are they simply ignoring the humans on the ocean because they are so inferior? The theory about energy and them feeding off it in space and on Earth could make sense. In space it's a major threat with them going after stars and ships, while they can somewhat dodge them at the present by turning everything off.

If that is the case though there is hardly a good long term relationship to be had here. If humanity wants to take steps forward they have to expand and develop their tech which would make them greater targets. But at the same time Ledo can't just rush off into battle either. He can barely fight them one on one in the ocean. He takes on a handful and he could very well lose.

Going to be some tough episodes ahead. As we see just where Ledo's path goes. It really can be a who knows kind of situation. If the Alliance finds Ledo it only gets more complicated. But hard to say if that will happen. Gargantia itself will possibly lead to a change in leadership at the worst time for it.
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Old 2013-05-19, 23:29   Link #98
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"Even if you don't kill those squids, you are you..."
Yes, the power of love and friendship is the perfect argument for why you should remove the dangers before they actually attack you, yes, boy?

Anyways, I think the useless Megane woman and old man should actually talk with Ledo for once, instead of chasing him out and talking between themselves and then getting all made because he acted without any knowledge.
But at least Kira Death Noted the captain, so that removes him out of the picture. Megane hysteric.

I'm all for Ledo extincting the squids if they really start a rampage when just one of their kinds get killed, but I'm not sure it is possible. There are just so many! Unless there is like some Mother Brain somewhere...
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Old 2013-05-19, 23:56   Link #99
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I'm glad the map has not gone unnoticed. I couldn't really think of a good explanation for it, though... if that really is dry land that's showing, it's hardly a secret hanging its picture up on the wall.

Unless it's not a current map, or is a map of some other thing than dry land (though the colors are fairly standard).

Anyway:

That's actually a world map.
Those are the Himalayas, Andes, Rockies etc but with south being the top of the map.

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Old 2013-05-20, 00:00   Link #100
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That's actually a world map.
Those are the Himalayas, Andes, Rockies etc but with south being the top of the map.

So...then there's actually pretty significant land above water... Pretty rugged of course but it's still dry, and they probably don't have cold alpine climates any more.
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