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Old 2013-12-28, 07:52   Link #181
GundamZZ
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
There's no contest. L-Elf had a worse childhood. Haruto suffered more during the course of the present day series because, unlike L-Elf, he had more to lose. That's the whole point I'm trying to make to GundamZZ when he said this:



To someone with such awful childhood, losing their memories isn't a real loss, living with them, it's a burden. Had L-Elf lost them, he would become a less bitter and more hopeful person without no real effort, it would be the opposite effect.
I wasn't going to say things even I disagree with you. I think I still have to say L-Elf is still gulity, even he has sad childhood. You cannot just justify his action by labeling all military related civilians and contractors as not innocent. It was communist militia and religious militia type of thinking. They may have bad childhood. They think all people of the country should suffer becuase they have direct or indirect relation to their military operation. Since you mentioned about Marie, you have to justify Michael's intention to hurt her.
If L-Elf loses memory of his childhood friend Licht, he would beceoms a NEET as suggested by several episodes ago. Before he meets Licht, he only tried to keep himself safe. He is active because he has the purpose. He decides to live for Licht and cares about students' well being. Saying lossing memory is not a real losing is a bold statement. How about Cold War never happend? Maybe Sunrise would not make Gundam franchise, and Bandai would not make so many robot toys. Are you certain Michael would not be L-Elf that you know.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:13   Link #182
Shinji103
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Leaving a mark on the world, absolutely. Please, I invite you to re-watch episode 22, when he self-analyzes himself and his core of living. Do you see Shoko brought up there? No, absolutely not. Deep inside, he doesn't care about that very much about hooking up with Shoko. It's more a base, childish longing that pales when he faces himself and he faces his own truth and reason for existence. In order to understand his own reasoning, you should listen to Haruto's monologue about his feelings for Shoko and the source of his attraction to her present in the first CD drama: it's envy of what she can do for others and her strength while he can't do the same. They were never going to get together, on reflection of this. Because the show also set her up as a psychological rival for Haruto to test his resolve and achieve what he truly wanted.
Why doesn't he bring up Shouko in episode 22? Because he's given up on her. His life has taken such a terrible turn that he doesn't even bother hoping for something better than a gutter for his grave. He's going to die, he's going to die without his memories, and he's going to die without getting his girl. Pretty much everything had gone to hell at that point, having been betrayed by nearly everything he fought for and his friends dying all around him. He had lost hope for anything resembling a good end for himself beyond going out with a bang. And we all know he'd gladly trade out the bang if it meant he could have just one true moment with Shouko where he could make his feelings clear and they could be happy together for just a few minutes. And the writers and staff couldn't even spring for some kind of photo or something for him to put in his cockpit to have some semblance of Shouko's memory as he spiraled down to his sad death.
And if one really does have to listen to a drama CD to understand the feelings of a character which sould be covered in the actual material itself, then that's a failure on the staff's part. Viewers shouldn't have to buy an extra CD to clear up Haruto's feelings when he's been right there on the screen for 24 episodes.
So you say they were never going to get together; how exactly would this make Haruto's end any less bleak? He got little more than the bare minimum for pulling through everything that has happened to him, and you're saying his wishes were doomed from the very beginning? How does that make anything better?

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You can project romantic notions on this, but it was never the meat of the character. Valvrave is a story of growth. Haruto crushed on Shoko but he overgrew her. And, even if maybe he wouldn't have objected hooking up with her, it wouldn't be at expense of his raison d'etre.
Heck, forget romance at this point. How about something that's not such a sad, depressing end for such a great guy who didn't deserve half the stuff that happened to him?
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:19   Link #183
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Originally Posted by GundamZZ View Post
I wasn't going to say things even I disagree with you. I think I still have to say L-Elf is still gulity, even he has sad childhood. You cannot just justify his action by labeling all military related civilians and contractors as not innocent. It was communist militia and religious militia type of thinking. They may have bad childhood. They think all people of the country should suffer becuase they have direct or indirect relation to their military operation. Since you mentioned about Marie, you have to justify Michael's intention to hurt her.
Yes, you can justify it. He's on a mission and he is allowed to use lethal force. He never breaks the New Guinea pact, for instance. Unlike Cain, who is placed as contrast for his actions. What contractors? The Module was a military base and all the staff, except for Nanami, was part of the military. I'm still waiting on the "civilians" he killed. You haven't given me a single example.

Marie endangered the mission and everyone's lives, also threatened to expose a state secrecy of his major force responsible to keep them all and their country unscathed. He carried the task at hand as he was taught to do: silence her immediately. She is part of a military personnel and goverment as well: New Jior's. It's fairly effective way to handle the situation when they are being attacked on hostile territory and she distracts one of his soldiers. L-Elf is just doing his job. Haruto caused this by not doing his.

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Originally Posted by GundamZZ View Post
If L-Elf loses memory of his childhood friend Licht, he would beceoms a NEET as suggested by several episodes ago. Before he meets Licht, he only tried to keep himself safe. He is active because he has the purpose. He decides to live for Licht and cares about students' well being. Saying lossing memory is not a real losing is a bold statement. How about Cold War never happend? Maybe Sunrise would not make Gundam franchise, and Bandai would not make so many robot toys. Are you certain Michael would not be L-Elf that you know.
If he loses his memory of Lieselotte, he loses his drive to help the kamitsuki at all which leads to ARUS slaughtering them without his protection. Don't forget he's doing this on her memory, carrying a version of her wish. So no, also he wouldn't become a "NEET" at all. He only became that way because he lost her, based on the memories he cared for her. If he loses that, he would stop caring. He'll go back to Dorssia and cheerfully help A-drei and the Royalists instead. Sure, let's go for that and have the 'flash forward' as just a delusion of the agonizing Saki before Carmilla is blown up.

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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
Why doesn't he bring up Shouko in episode 22? Because he's given up on her.
Lieselotte died and yet she appeared on L-Elf's talk and was about her mostly. Losing someone for a "terrible turn" for misunderstandings or deaths doesn't mean anything in their inner conversation with one innermost's desire. She was simply not that relevant. Period. She's missing from his introspection because she wasn't all that important deep inside in Haruto's inner world. He was facing himself, you know? He had a talk about what he sincerelly wanted to accomplish and "marrying Shoko" wasn't in the list. Or, like L-Elf mentioned "If I couldn't be with you" when he chatted with Lieselotte, Haruto would have brought that up. He didn't.

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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
And if one really does have to listen to a drama CD to understand the feelings of a character which sould be covered in the actual material itself, then that's a failure on the staff's part. Viewers shouldn't have to buy an extra CD to clear up Haruto's feelings when he's been right there on the screen for 24 episodes.
The CD drama is attached to the first volume sale to clarify a number of things from the show and expand it written by one of the head scriptwriters. It's the actual material, not just a cutesy added on spin off. If viewers don't buy the show, it's not their problem to misunderstand what was presented. In the show itself, when we are introduced Shoko and Haruto, how was our first impression? Shoko as Haruto's rival in a contest for the Module grounds and Haruto feeling down when he got beaten. He has feelings for her and all, but look at the first presentation of the characters and their relationship: friendly rivals. There was more than a mere crush there. Now it's Shoko who has to pick up where Haruto left her behind.

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Originally Posted by Shinji103 View Post
So you say they were never going to get together; how exactly would this make Haruto's end any less bleak? He got little more than the bare minimum for pulling through everything that has happened to him, and you're saying his wishes were doomed from the very beginning? How does that make anything better?
What is bleak about getting what you truly wanted? Is it because he didn't get what you considered he should have wanted? It's not "bare minimum" but he got his reason of existence.
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Last edited by Thess; 2013-12-28 at 15:39.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:20   Link #184
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Shinji Which is why I say concerning Shoko he forgot everything about her. So he didn't have any regrets concerning her. Silver-lining?

Plus he had a friend in L-Elf who was there for him in his final moments.

I wanted more of resolution for the two of them myself, I'm not gonna lie.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:25   Link #185
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Shinji Which is why I say concerning Shoko he forgot everything about her. So he didn't have any regrets concerning her. Silver-lining?

Plus he had a friend in L-Elf who was there for him in his final moments.
The one, small light of his bleak and dark end. He forgot his entirely life and everything bad with it, and some guy he doesn't know saying he's a friend. Nothing more than an "ignorance is bliss" ending.
In a way, that wasn't even Haruto anymore. Haruto died when his memories died; everything that made him who he was, was gone. That guy left there was just some poor soul who didn't know what the heck was going on.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:29   Link #186
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Like I said, he gave up on her because his life had taken such a terrible turn, one which he didn't deserve at all. A guy like Haruto deserved his girl, the victory pose, and a nice long life. He didn't even have the life left for a victory pose.

The one, small light of his bleak and dark end, some guy he doesn't know saying he's a friend. Nothing more than an "ignorance is bliss" ending; he had no memory of any of the bad things that happened to him.
In a way, that wasn't even Haruto anymore. Haruto died when his memories died; everything that made him was gone.
Don't get me wrong. I agree with your points. At this point for Haruto I was willing to settle for the fact that the guy didn't have to suffer anymore. Did I want more than just Shoko putting on a brave face while Haruto knew she was in pain as a resolution? Definitely.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:35   Link #187
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For all the death flags for Haruto, I expected a twist that he actually survives in the end. That did not happen . What I'm truly sad about is that everyone after the final fight got their happiness in one way or another, at the cost of Harutos Life, who lost everything. For him Valvrave truly was a curse.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:40   Link #188
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For all the death flags for Haruto, I expected a twist that he actually survives in the end. That did not happen . What I'm truly sad about is that everyone after the final fight got their happiness in one way or another, at the cost of Harutos Life, who lost everything. For him Valvrave truly was a curse.
I was expecting that twist myself for a while. The flags were so in your face, that I thought they might try and swerve us and do the opposite and have him live while being able to make new memories.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:43   Link #189
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For all the death flags for Haruto, I expected a twist that he actually survives in the end. That did not happen . What I'm truly sad about is that everyone after the final fight got their happiness in one way or another, at the cost of Harutos Life, who lost everything. For him Valvrave truly was a curse.
They played with this hope (and L-Elf's) when Haruto's eyes lit up after L-Elf said he was his friend only to have him die after that. That was unnecessary cruel because it got L-Elf's hopes up only to break his heart a second afterwards. I can't imagine what happened later in that cockpit. Akira at least took Haruto's helmet to Shoko but I don't think L-Elf let go of his body for a while.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:47   Link #190
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Hopefully he handled it better than he did when Lise passed on.

That was sad to watch
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:50   Link #191
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Originally Posted by Thess View Post
Lieselotte died and yet she appeared on L-Elf's talk and was about her mostly. Losing someone for a "terrible turn" for misunderstandings or deaths doesn't mean anything in their inner conversation with one innermost's desire. She was simply not that relevant. Period. She's missing from his introspection because she wasn't all that important deep inside in Haruto's inner world. He was facing himself, you know? He had a talk about what he sincerelly wanted to accomplish and "marrying Shoko" wasn't in the list. Or, like L-Elf mentioned "If I couldn't be with you" when he chatted with Lieselotte, Haruto would have brought that up. He didn't.
It was pretty hard for "marrying Shouko" to be on his list when said girl had offered him up to the bad guys. Like I said, he'd given up on getting her. As he told Kyuuma he still loved her, but he knew a happy life with her wasn't going to happen at that point.
And of course there was the whole going to die with no memories thing that was slapping him in the face. It seriously darkens your view of your own outcome.

Quote:
The CD drama is attached to the first volume sale to clarify a number of things from the show and expand it written by one of the head scriptwriters. It's the actual material, not just a cutesy added on spin off. If viewers don't buy the show, it's not their problem to misunderstand what was presented. In the show itself, when we are introduced Shoko and Haruto, how was our first impression? Shoko as Haruto's rival in a contest for the Module grounds and Haruto feeling down when he got beaten. He has feelings for her and all, but look at the first presentation of the characters and their relationship: friendly rivals. There was more than a mere crush there. Now it's Shoko who has to pick up where Haruto left her behind.
For something that was just a mere crush, the staff sure used it to make a pretty big definition of Haruto's life in that one episode and from then on. That "mere crush" is the reason Haruto became a Valvrave pilot. It defined practically the whole series. He never would have gotten aboard Unit 1 to avenge Shouko if he hadn't felt so deeply for her.
She was either Haruto's love or not; you can't have it both ways, and the staff picked "she is." They even repeated it when Kyuuma asked Haruto.
Haruto had simply given up on getting together with her because he knew it was never going to happen with everything that had just happened. He did what he did best; he pulled through, just as he always did up to the end. So why bother getting stuck on it? That is why he didn't talk about her; it was a lost cause, and instead of getting stuck on it, he pulled himself past it and focused on what he had to do. And that is even more reason for him to get a better ending than what he got.

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What is bleak about getting what you truly wanted? Is it because he didn't get what you considered he should have wanted? It's not "bare minimum" but he got his reason of existence.
Because "what he truly wanted" turned into a bleak, depressing death. Why couldn't he get more than what he had settled for, more than what he wanted after he had to give up on everything else? A reason for existence is the bare minimum; everybody deserves that. And a great guy like Haruto deserves more than the bare minimum.
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Old 2013-12-28, 15:51   Link #192
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Originally Posted by KleenexGhost View Post
Hopefully he handled it better than he did when Lise passed on.

That was sad to watch
He had something to fall to after this: their promise, so at least he wouldn't be aimless like happened after losing Lieselotte. But I can picture going on simulations and being desolate for a while. A-drei is around to support him at least.

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It was pretty hard for "marrying Shouko" to be on his list when said girl had offered him up to the bad guys. Like I said, he'd given up on her.
Except that he didn't. He refused to give up his friends, including Shoko, even after L-Elf told him he killed her father. He had chosen to give up on life after noticing he has brought suffering but then he realizes he doesn't want to, there's a reason that keeps him living: leave a mark on the world. Meanwhile, L-Elf also gave up on life because he couldn't be with Lieselotte but realizes he has a reason to live for: carry on her dream build a safe haven for humans and kamitsuki.

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For something that was just a mere crush, the staff sure used it to make a pretty big definition of Haruto's life in that one episode and from then on. That "mere crush" is the reason Haruto became a Valvrave pilot. It defined practically the whole series. He never would have gotten aboard Unit 1 to avenge Shouko if he hadn't felt so deeply for her.
She was either Haruto's love or not; you can't have it both ways, and the staff picked "she is." They even repeated it when Kyuuma asked Haruto.
Haruto had simply given up on getting together with her because he knew it was never going to happen with everything that had just happened. He did what he did best; he pulled through, just as he always did up to the end. So why bother getting stuck on it? That is why he didn't talk about her; it was a lost cause, and instead of getting stuck on it, he pulled himself past it and focused on what he had to do. And that is even more reason for him to get a better ending than what he got.
They never use the word of strong love for what Haruto feels towards Shoko (that's ai), not the staff or Haruto himself. While they do for what L-Elf felt for Lieselotte, for instance. She was one of his best friends and he was in love with her, not denying this. He loved her and he loved the world, another epiphany he had in the Moon. He wants to keep loving everyone even if they hate him. But remember what caused Haruto to push "yes" in that cockpit? Was it Shoko's face? No, it was L-Elf's words. That's why their relationship and not Shoko's and Haruto's the pillar of the show. Just it was L-Elf's monster remark what triggered Haruto's subsequent angst. Nonetheless, Haruto according to himself was attracted to Shoko because he envied her strength and how she believed in herself. "I can't hope to be like Shoko" is one of his self-deprecating observations in the CD Drama.

That's false after the ending, it's Shoko now who tries to mimic him.

He didn't focus in what he had to do. He focused in what he wanted to do. He asked himself why he was born into this world and he came with an answer.

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Because "what he truly wanted" was a bleak, depressing death. Why couldn't he get more than what he had settled for? He gave up on everything else and went for nothing more than his most immediate desire. A reason for existence is the bare minimum; everybody deserves that. And a great guy like Haruto deserves more than the bare minimum.
Some people want to die heroically and go down in a blaze of glory to be memorable. Saki used to feel this way too, by the way. Haruto was, ironically, feeling it more strongly than Saki. There's nothing bleak and depressing to die painlessly in company of a friend who tries to hold onto you after accomplished your promise and dream, even if you don't remember them. That's a hero's death.
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Old 2013-12-28, 16:18   Link #193
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Except that he didn't. He refused to give up his friends, including Shoko, even after L-Elf told him he killed her father. He had chosen to give up on life after noticing he has brought suffering but then he realizes he doesn't want to, there's a reason that keeps him living: leave a mark on the world. Meanwhile, L-Elf also gave up on life because he couldn't be with Lieselotte but realizes he has a reason to live for: carry on her dream build a safe haven for humans and kamitsuki.
You realize you just largely described my point? He gave up on everything in life except for something he could still get.

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They never use the word of strong love for what Haruto feels towards Shoko (that's ai), not the staff or Haruto himself. While they do for what L-Elf felt for Lieselotte, for instance. She was one of his best friends and he was in love with her, not denying this. He loved her and he loved the world, another epiphany he had in the Moon. He wants to keep loving everyone even if they hate him. But remember what caused Haruto to push "yes" in that cockpit? Was it Shoko's face? No, it was L-Elf's words. That's why their relationship and not Shoko's and Haruto's the pillar of the show. Just it was L-Elf's monster remark what triggered Haruto's subsequent angst. Nonetheless, Haruto according to himself was attracted to Shoko because he envied her strength and how she believed in herself. "I can't hope to be like Shoko" is one of his self-deprecating observations in the CD Drama.
I know Japanese, including how they use "ai" and "suki" in anime, and you're splitting hairs there, big time.
It was L-Elf's words driven by his desire to avenge the girl he loved. This was already established. He was driven to the Valvrave because the bad guys had just killed his girl.
Regardless of which relationship was the pillar of the show, why does HarutoxShouko have to be the main relationship for it to happen? Why did Haruto have to be robbed of that happiness? Desiring a reason for existence in no way makes it impossible to get the girl he loves. He could have gotten both, but the writers and staff gave him a ditch to die in.

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That's false after the ending, it's Shoko now who tries to mimic him
What happened after this ending is irrelevant to this talk, because if Haruto had gotten the happy ending he deserved and gotten together with Shouko, the epilogue and Shouko trying to carry on after him would have been massively different.

Quote:
He didn't focus in what he had to do. He focused in what he wanted to do. He asked himself why he was born into this world and he came with an answer.
And you think that if his life hadn't been sucked into the drain, casuing him to give up on anything more, he never would have desired more than the basic reason for being born that every person deserves?

Quote:
Some people want to die heroically and go down in a blaze of glory to be memorable. Saki used to feel this way too, by the way. Haruto was, ironically, feeling it more strongly than Saki. There's nothing bleak and depressing to die painlessly in company of a friend who tries to hold onto you after accomplished your promise and dream, even if you don't remember them. That's a hero's death.
Just because it can be filed under "a hero's death" does not in any way mean he didn't deserve much, much more. And like I said in a previous post, the person who L-Elf comforted by calling him a "friend" was really not Haruto any longer. Everything that made Haruto himself, his memories, had already died. The guy who L-Elf was talking to at the end was just some poor soul who didn't know what the heck was going on.
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Old 2013-12-28, 16:29   Link #194
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I'd like to believe that there was a tiny speck of rune left the moment Michael said he was his friend.

You can see Haruto's face changing before it cuts to L-Elf like he just remembered something.

I think for fleeting moment, he came back since his eyes were full of life.

This was a good sendoff for Haruto and he finally "punched" L-Elf and gave him a sign of recognition before passing.
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Old 2013-12-28, 21:00   Link #195
amaterasu4
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I think the problem here is that I believe no character from Valvrave wants a hero's death. More exactly nobody wants to die. Maybe soldiers who often face difficult situations want to go out with a bang but the New JIOR members don't. From what I get behind Haruto's character is that his biggest wish was not being a hero loved by everybody but living with the people he loved and that they were safe.

The problem I saw within the last episodes is that the writers focused more on what Haruto lost rather than what Haruto had. The time when he returned to New JIOR and had small talk with Shoko just made him worse. The promises he made with L-elf and Saki were quite underplayed and made no significant changes to the character. I guess the writers wanted to convey his message a person can get up again alone after being hurt.

That is nice but Haruto was going to die. He became happy one second before his death but he had already forgotten everything. It's like ignorance made him happy which I find it's a poor message or just contradicts everything he said. Heck Shoko becoming the red Valvrave pilot just solidified his biggest fear.

If Shoko or somebody else had showed him strong support during the final fight maybe his death wouldn't have been this so sad because he knew he was still accepted by others. I hope Saki's manga will try to revise this in the same way it revised the whole episode 10 thing.

Anyway, maybe I'm just taking the writing of the series too seriously so excuse my comments.
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Old 2013-12-28, 21:22   Link #196
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If Shoko or somebody else had showed him strong support during the final fight maybe his death wouldn't have been this so sad because he knew he was still accepted by others.
L-Elf did, as did his companions and all the Valvrave pilots. But specially L-Elf who was fighting with him without second thoughts. Satomi's shuttle was with him too and he knew it.
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Old 2013-12-29, 00:05   Link #197
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L-Elf did, as did his companions and all the Valvrave pilots. But specially L-Elf who was fighting with him without second thoughts. Satomi's shuttle was with him too and he knew it.
Yet the show never focuses on that as I already pointed out. It's like L-elf never overcame his depression until seeing Lieselotte's spirit even though Haruto still tried to support him. We only see him happy a second before dying.

Now that I think about he could have even restarted without memories like Marie when she was a beta pilot but for some reason he directly died. Way to force a death.
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Old 2013-12-29, 00:41   Link #198
Thess
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Join Date: Jan 2010
He died because he was leaking runes and Hito was still functional on space. If they had been retrieved sooner, he might have gotten a chance.
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Old 2014-01-11, 14:13   Link #199
mechalord
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Haruto was in L-Elf's body and using his memories to fight Cain.

- L-elf should have been splitting the rune load
- Haruto had to feed and harvest runes for Pino.
- Haruto was different from other Kamitsuki.
- why feed on humans if Pino and Valvrave feed on pilots.
- wasn't the whole point to being a vampire was harvesting runes so the Valvrave didn't eat those of the pilot?
- the magius didn't need so many runes, because they were constantly feeding all of the time from ambient runes. They only needed to a little bit.
- why did the Valvrave get less MPG as the series went along? Haruto was using the robot a lot in the first season without much trouble. While in the second season just firing a plasma shot 'caused the robot to overheat immediately and drain runes exponentially faster.




Something smells of sloppy writing.
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Old 2014-01-11, 14:56   Link #200
DuelGundam2099
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Join Date: Feb 2013
Not to mention the familiars prevented most of the overheating.
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