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Old 2013-10-13, 18:17   Link #161
Divino
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I wonder if Lise is still herself. I mean we saw how Amadeus got hijacked, and even Cain has not being himself since 10-years ago. So there might be a chance that Lise was hijacked as well.
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Old 2013-10-13, 18:32   Link #162
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by Irenesharda View Post
I don't know, I think he will eventually. He's been doing all of this to bring revolution to Dorssia. Even if he's partially doing it for the Lieselotte, from the way he speaks, he too cares for his country. He just doesn't like the direction its going in.

Unfortunately, all that "revolution of Dorssia" stuff, has taken a large backseat to the Magius plotline hasn't it? Suddenly the three nations seem so small next to the council of alien space vampires.
Well, from the Magius' standpoint, they stay out of human endeavors. In fact, the reason Amadues got in trouble was because his invasion of Dorssia related to them.

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It could actually go towards Cain's purpose if he expected L-11 to try something, caught him, and then blackmailed L-11 into becoming some sort of double agent. With Amadeus' help, he could use Lieselotte as leverage. We do see a point where L-11 re-dons his old uniform and he doesn't look happy about it. Also, we don't see L-11 around a lot with the other 5 pilots in the preview scenes. We can assume he separates from them at some point. This could place a hitch with Haruto and his plan to feed off only L-11. The Valvraves may then be on a borrowed clock energy wise, unless the others start to feed off humans too.
I though along the lines the same thing, but it also was part of my parallel timeline theory. It seems more likely a flashback with Haruto probably going to be able to see the L-elf's memories.

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Originally Posted by mangakid95 View Post
I doubt that they (L-Elf's superiors & ""friends"") know that L-Elf betrayed Dorssia because of Lisolette. If they did, they'd probably use the "we can guarantee her safety, only if you rejoin us" card. Cain seems low enough to resort to using hostages & blackmail to keep people in check.

So, my guess is that no one is aware of the reason for his defection, but if he tries to infiltrate or return. That alone shows that he's left behind something, therefore exposing himself & alerting them(Cain/Amadeus/A-3) that there is something for him to return for & at that point, they'll try to figure it out.

The fact that Lisolette hasn't been used to draw him out yet, means that she is outside Dorssia's calculations concerning L-Elf. A-3 had a friendly/personal relationship with her & he doesn't know that she's met L-Elf before, therefore in conclusion, if someone close to her didn't know, then how are strangers supposed to know?
I have a feeling Cain can look it up. I bet there are records of his attempted escape, though his name wouldn't be listed. In defense, the records probably have him listed as a number or just refers to him as "boy". If anyone can find a link, Cain is most likely.

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Again, I don't think we should take everything in the OP as face value. I'll wait till I see a scene of her in present time before I make any judgements.

I too am interested in what her role will be. Also, they really need to inform us about these coups that have been taking place within the last 15 or so years. I think so far they have mentioned at least 2 or 3. Yet, Amadeus is the 68th ruler, which means that he continued on from where they left off before the coup(s). So the type of government has stayed fairly the same, it's the rulers that have shifted.
Seconded!

Hopefully, Lieselotte will have more than a few seconds of screen time this season.
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Old 2013-10-26, 04:26   Link #163
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With the newest episode (S2, E3) we get a little more backstory on L-elf, and what the Karlstein students have to go through.

Having these "ways of life" indoctrinated for 10 years, it's no wonder L-elf is so cold.

Spoiler:
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Old 2013-10-26, 05:22   Link #164
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Originally Posted by c0de_da1sy View Post
With the newest episode (S2, E3) we get a little more backstory on L-elf, and what the Karlstein students have to go through.

Having these "ways of life" indoctrinated for 10 years, it's no wonder L-elf is so cold.

Spoiler:
That's why he needs Shoko to melt those ice.
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Old 2013-10-26, 09:26   Link #165
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I think L-Elf has not lost all his emotions, I gave that impression while reading the message of the wall.


There is a possibility that Saki knows a little of his past and to understand its behavior cold
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Old 2013-10-26, 13:17   Link #166
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Originally Posted by Fjoergyn View Post
I think L-Elf has not lost all his emotions, I gave that impression while reading the message of the wall.


There is a possibility that Saki knows a little of his past and to understand its behavior cold
Saki doesn't know yet. I have a feeling that she'll(in the body of the Karlstrin boy) probably hear A-Drei mumble something about L-Elf's past. She still has yet to meet Cain, if plot wanted to, Cain could also reveal a little information to her about L-Elf.

In the four protags, she & L-Elf are alike. While Haruto & Shoko are their polar opposites. So if anyone can relate to L-Elf's suffering & darkness, it'd be Saki. I sense the development of a friendship here, it'd also be perfect for them because they have no other form of relationship in the series.

But the one who will make L-Elf become "human" again is most likely Shoko with Haruto as the trigger. Haruto experiences his memories & learns about his suffering, this puts a crack in his icy armor & Shoko shatters it with her never-negative personality.

Lise could also be a factor in the trigger, it depends on how she's used though. If she dies, then he'll be at an emotional low, which would make it easy for someone to break his shell & comfort him or she could be the trigger that helps him realize he's not some heartless killer. A meeting/small conversation could ensure this, then she's recaptured before he can confirm how he feels. It'd make his motivation for the revolution even stronger.
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Old 2013-10-26, 16:02   Link #167
c0de_da1sy
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In the four protags, she & L-Elf are alike. While Haruto & Shoko are their polar opposites. So if anyone can relate to L-Elf's suffering & darkness, it'd be Saki. I sense the development of a friendship here, it'd also be perfect for them because they have no other form of relationship in the series.

But the one who will make L-Elf become "human" again is most likely Shoko with Haruto as the trigger. Haruto experiences his memories & learns about his suffering, this puts a crack in his icy armor & Shoko shatters it with her never-negative personality.

Lise could also be a factor in the trigger, it depends on how she's used though. If she dies, then he'll be at an emotional low, which would make it easy for someone to break his shell & comfort him or she could be the trigger that helps him realize he's not some heartless killer. A meeting/small conversation could ensure this, then she's recaptured before he can confirm how he feels. It'd make his motivation for the revolution even stronger.
Friendship with L-elf would be a nice start, but I do get the feeling it has to be with someone who's got a similar (or just bad) past as him because they'd be able to understand what he has gone through.

From what we can see Haruto, who's spent the most time with him, hasn't been able to break that ice-cold exterior yet. Shoko hasn't placed a dent on him either during those 2 months they worked together.

If anyone's going to humanize him, it will probably be Lieselotte (whether by meeting her or dying) or Haruto. Considering how Okuchi said that Haruto is the "most far-removed and infuriating human being L-elf has encountered", I'm going to bet on Haruto defrosting the ice-king.

The only reason why I think he's loosing his cool and acting irrationally right now is because he's back and his Karlstein memories are coming back...and the fact that Haruto couldn't follow the plan.
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Old 2013-10-26, 16:20   Link #168
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Friendship with L-elf would be a nice start, but I do get the feeling it has to be with someone who's got a similar (or just bad) past as him because they'd be able to understand what he has gone through.

From what we can see Haruto, who's spent the most time with him, hasn't been able to break that ice-cold exterior yet. Shoko hasn't placed a dent on him either during those 2 months they worked together.

If anyone's going to humanize him, it will probably be Lieselotte (whether by meeting her or dying) or Haruto. Considering how Okuchi said that Haruto is the "most far-removed and infuriating human being L-elf has encountered", I'm going to bet on Haruto defrosting the ice-king.

The only reason why I think he's loosing his cool and acting irrationally right now is because he's back and his Karlstein memories are coming back...and the fact that Haruto couldn't follow the plan.
Yes, while he does act like a machine most of the time, he's in fact still a living, breathing person. So he's still prone to frustration, anger & temperament. So him acting irrational/erratic could be due to those resurfacing Karlstein memories.

Yes, Haruto is likely to put a massive dent in his icy exterior, but I expect Lise/Shoko to be the one to melt him completely. Though Haruto finishing the job is also a likely possibility.

Lise dying warrants the most character development opportunities. Her death would allow us to see what he's like when he truly sad & would also make for the shattering of his ice to be a lot easier &/or emotional. A meeting/conversation would warrant some emotional development, but the denting of his ice may be small compared to a death induced trauma.

Also from the magazine source that said that we'll see L-Elf in a new light/never before seen side of him, makes me think that he'll most likely get the most character development this season. They're already beginning to flesh out his character with minor moments here & there. (showing a minor concern for Shoko's health, becoming Haruto's Rune supply & now remembering his Karlstein days. There is also that little bit in the ED where he shoots a crystal Cain, so I'm keeping my eyes on him this season.)
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Old 2013-10-26, 16:57   Link #169
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^ Don't just kill off Liselotte.

Maybe we're thinking to much about this. The source just says "we'll see him in a new light". Before, we got that he was a cold and logical person, and it was easy for group of viewers to not like him (though I'm not one of them), but we didn't know why. This season we're starting to know what kind of life he had to live, and we'll learn more about his motivations. The audience will come to have better understanding why he is the way he is. Seeing him in a new light could very much mean learning his backstory and motivations. This season looks to be providing such.
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Old 2013-10-26, 17:24   Link #170
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^ Don't just kill off Liselotte.

Maybe we're thinking to much about this. The source just says "we'll see him in a new light". Before, we got that he was a cold and logical person, and it was easy for group of viewers to not like him (though I'm not one of them), but we didn't know why. This season we're starting to know what kind of life he had to live, and we'll learn more about his motivations. The audience will come to have better understanding why he is the way he is. Seeing him in a new light could very much mean learning his backstory and motivations. This season looks to be providing such.
I'm not killing her off. Its fact, her dying would contribute far more opportunities for L-Elf's character development than her living & simply providing further motivation. I'm just speculating as to whether she's more valuable to the plot & character(L-Elf), alive or dead.

I take the "see him in a new light" statement as literal. We'll see him transform from the cold & calculating killer into a tsundere badass who cares about his new comrades, but doesn't show it...lol
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Old 2013-10-26, 18:31   Link #171
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However, "seeing him a new light" isn't very literal; it's very vague. However, "seeing him in a new light", and "watch his heart melt" are two different statements.
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Old 2013-10-26, 18:41   Link #172
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However, "seeing him a new light" isn't very literal; it's very vague. However, "seeing him in a new light", and "watch his heart melt" are two different statements.
^Fair point, the only thing I have to fall back on is Okuchi's style of writing. Its not much, but its something.

We've seen Lelouch change from: loathing student - master manipulator - tyrant - sympathetic suicidal hero.

& Suzaku change from: selfish kid - soldier filled with regret - idealist - selflessly suicidal (as a way of atonement) - tyrant's assistant - hero in the shadows.

Going from this, I do believe that L-Elf's character will undergo major changes. That's how I see it, I may be completely wrong though.
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:21   Link #173
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Lise dying would be the best way to get sadness and a break down out of L-Elf. We've seen him desperate, angry, cold, and arrogant before.

Though he has at least developed well already. Such as how he seemed to be much kinder towards Shoko now and treats her as more than just a pawn while before the S1->S2 transition he considered her a baffling girl that annoyed him at times even if she was useful.
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:25   Link #174
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I hope L-elf changes for the good.

Anyways, I want to see more flashbacks.
It'd be nice to see what L-elf and his old comrades had to go through in order to survive. Also, with the OP and this episode it at least confirms that he still has lingering attachment to his old teammates.
Spoiler:
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:29   Link #175
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To me, it makes more sense for him to be attached to his team mates than Lieselotte

I'm starting to understand how A-Drei feels. L-Elf is a fellow childhood survivor of grueling life and death tests.
And he's throwing all that away for his own plans
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Old 2013-10-26, 19:40   Link #176
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^Agreed, now A-Drei screaming his name all of last season, doesn't seem so stupid anymore. When you survive that long with a group of people, its hard to just leave them behind.

However, that's exactly what L-Elf did, he threw it all away to further his own goals. He's chosen the lonely path & that's a road he'll thread for a long time before he's brought back to the "licht".(SeeWatIDidThere?...XD)
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:33   Link #177
Kurohane
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To me, it makes more sense for him to be attached to his team mates than Lieselotte

I'm starting to understand how A-Drei feels. L-Elf is a fellow childhood survivor of grueling life and death tests.
And he's throwing all that away for his own plans
Well, granted, L-elf knows the injustice of what Dorssia has become. It's not like he left without good reason. Also, A-drei may have inferred to much from L-elf about being his right hand man. As he said in episode 7, he has no intention of becoming anyone's left hand. Plus Q-vier wasn't exactly sad when he left, rather overjoyed, because now he can fight him.

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^Agreed, now A-Drei screaming his name all of last season, doesn't seem so stupid anymore. When you survive that long with a group of people, its hard to just leave them behind.

However, that's exactly what L-Elf did, he threw it all away to further his own goals. He's chosen the lonely path & that's a road he'll thread for a long time before he's brought back to the "licht".(SeeWatIDidThere?...XD)
Granted, he most likely only had a bond with A-drei that resembled friendship. The rest didn't get past being teammates.
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Old 2013-10-26, 20:34   Link #178
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To me, it makes more sense for him to be attached to his team mates than Lieselotte

I'm starting to understand how A-Drei feels. L-Elf is a fellow childhood survivor of grueling life and death tests.
And he's throwing all that away for his own plans
Well, he did mention that his plan for a revolution moved up by 5 years thanks to the VVV's. However, rather than betraying his teammates, it looked like he was going to rise through the ranks and possibly start things from the inside.

Of course, I'm assuming that's the case since that's what A-drei planned to do in order to restore the royal family, which L-elf was aware of. I feel bad for A-drei because he confided in him, yet L-elf chose to do what he wanted since it was easier for his own plans. But we did know for a while that L-elf is willing to do pretty much anything in order to reach his goals.
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Old 2013-10-26, 23:52   Link #179
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^ Don't just kill off Liselotte.

Maybe we're thinking to much about this. The source just says "we'll see him in a new light". Before, we got that he was a cold and logical person, and it was easy for group of viewers to not like him (though I'm not one of them), but we didn't know why. This season we're starting to know what kind of life he had to live, and we'll learn more about his motivations. The audience will come to have better understanding why he is the way he is. Seeing him in a new light could very much mean learning his backstory and motivations. This season looks to be providing such.
I'm thinking that too, I don't think they are going to be changing L-elf much. He's very popular there as he is over here. The polls they did over the break had him winning in nearly every category. So, I think it will be more that we'll see more of his past and his motivations than them trying to turn him into some sort of tsundere. I actually kind of like him the way he is. Haruto MCs are a dime a dozen, I kind of like the ones that aren't afraid to kill.

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However, "seeing him a new light" isn't very literal; it's very vague. However, "seeing him in a new light", and "watch his heart melt" are two different statements.
Totally agree with that.

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Originally Posted by mangakid95 View Post
^Fair point, the only thing I have to fall back on is Okuchi's style of writing. Its not much, but its something.

We've seen Lelouch change from: loathing student - master manipulator - tyrant - sympathetic suicidal hero.

& Suzaku change from: selfish kid - soldier filled with regret - idealist - selflessly suicidal (as a way of atonement) - tyrant's assistant - hero in the shadows.

Going from this, I do believe that L-Elf's character will undergo major changes. That's how I see it, I may be completely wrong though.
Well, there is the difference that Lelouch and Suzaku did have a fairly normal upbringing for a while, and they both had a fairly normal school life going aside the craziness of the military and the rebellion. L-elf lost his childhood and innocence at a young age, was capable of killing another kid only a year younger than him at less than 7 years of age. He was a orphan and slave before his 6th birthday. He was stripped of his identity and turned into a serial number, trained from the age of 6/7 to be a killing machine in a harsh unforgiving environment among other kids that could turn on you at any moment, has killed thousands in his military career, and has seen countless atrocities during that time, so much that he's completely used to them.

I'd say that L-elf has been through more than either Lelouch or Suzaku and it's going to take a lot more for his character to change much. In fact, I doubt L-elf will every be normal or easygoing, he'll never become anything like Haruto and his friends. The most that can really be hoped for is for him to become a little more lenient and begin to trust others a little more. Other than that, I think he might just have lived through to much to ever show that type of weakness to anyone, maybe even Lieselotte. I mean, we see him involuntarily crying over her picture, but he was alone then. I doubt he would show that kind of emotion when actually in her presence. He's been taught for so long to hide his emotions that it's second nature.
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Old 2013-10-27, 00:05   Link #180
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I could see L-Elf's character being developed in the same manner as Heero.
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