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Old 2013-05-25, 23:05   Link #221
SoloPanda
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I wouldn't be too sure. All that hatred just doesn't disappear. We saw how he was when Danzo mentioned Itachi and a little afterwards when Naruto said he understands Sasuke's motivations. Push the right buttons and Sasuke will lose his cool.



No doubt Sasuke still plans to keep his promise of killing Naruto and denying everything he stands for. However, he knows he'll never become Hokage if he follows the usual way since he is missing nin and a criminal. He must have some idea to do it, and Sasuke has never been patient.

Also, since Sasuke changed his motives doesn't mean he's changed himself. He's still indifferent toward his former rookie classmates, even Naruto. He's still Uchiha-obesessed since the beginning of the manga, in fact that's only increased. As I said before, the hatred doesn't disappear. He's still angry at the village, that's why now he wants to change it's very foundations.



Nothings been forgiven though or agreed with from any of Naruto's antagonist. Just because you understand someone doesn't mean you forgive them. Naruto basically said that to Nagato back during the final momnets of Pain's Invasion arc. However, I do believe Naruto eventually forgave him by referring Nagato as his senior pupil later on, but I'm sure the rest of Konoha hasn't.
Hmm i have no choice but to agree here (damn you logic!). ah well either way I don't think Sasuke has changed, he's still the same guy that tried to kill Karen and Sakura. For the moment killing them has become unnecessary is all. One thing I have noticed is that he's still drawn with the same hollow looking eyes that he's had for a while now, not sure if that means anything but his indiference reflects that. I also think he'll make an attempt on Naruto but I also think that Naruto will be ready for it. He's grown since the last time they faced each other and he understands hatred isn't something that just changes.

Well we'll see what happens on the next chapter but I still don't trust the guy. Not till he shows something like remorse. It'd be kinda cool if he turns himself in at the end of this arc to serve time so that he can come out and win everyones trust back to become Hokage. They could do another time skip from that point to the day he's sposed to be released. I seriously doubt it though.
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Old 2013-05-26, 00:01   Link #222
itachi-san314
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what are you both talking about? sasuke has certainly changed since killing danzo. his rage was all because of how itachi was manipulated and the sacrifices he made. since then, he actually met itachi and spoke with him at length... it's unquestionable that sasuke has changed. and that's before he learned 'everything' from hashirama and tobirama. even if he has the chance, he wouldn't kill naruto now. you're totally glossing over his last 2 changes (in a short amount of time granted, but still very significant). i'm not saying he wouldn't fight naruto. he will. but he isn't a merciless killer anymore and his goals and personality are totally different than when he fought danzo
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Old 2013-05-26, 00:16   Link #223
SoloPanda
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
what are you both talking about? sasuke has certainly changed since killing danzo. his rage was all because of how itachi was manipulated and the sacrifices he made. since then, he actually met itachi and spoke with him at length... it's unquestionable that sasuke has changed. and that's before he learned 'everything' from hashirama and tobirama. even if he has the chance, he wouldn't kill naruto now. you're totally glossing over his last 2 changes (in a short amount of time granted, but still very significant). i'm not saying he wouldn't fight naruto. he will. but he isn't a merciless killer anymore and his goals and personality are totally different than when he fought danzo
I have no doubt that he may have changed his outlook and motive and even personality to an extent, but Hannibal Lecter will always be Hannibal Lecter no matter how much therapy he gets. He'll always be the guy that ate peoples livers... I'm just sayin that even if his life outlook changed his ability to murder an old friend isn't that far under the surface.
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Old 2013-05-26, 01:20   Link #224
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Originally Posted by SoloPanda View Post
I have no doubt that he may have changed his outlook and motive and even personality to an extent, but Hannibal Lecter will always be Hannibal Lecter no matter how much therapy he gets. He'll always be the guy that ate peoples livers... I'm just sayin that even if his life outlook changed his ability to murder an old friend isn't that far under the surface.
Do you imply that Gaara is still secretly an insane psychopath who get off the idea on killing people and would murder his own siblings if they dared to talk back?

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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
I wouldn't be too sure. All that hatred just doesn't disappear. We saw how he was when Danzo mentioned Itachi and a little afterwards when Naruto said he understands Sasuke's motivations. Push the right buttons and Sasuke will lose his cool.
Well ok but I'm not sure I understand how that answer my point. You said that Sasuke would be furious if he realized that Naruto was following Itachi's legacy more than he does but my problem with your claim is that Sasuke never thought he was following his brother's legacy, in fact he was purposely doing just the opposite until a few hours ago and even when he changed his mind he admitted that Hashirama and his brother had the exact same ideal on protecting the village at all cost which is also Naruto's philosophy although Naruto thinks -and will be vindicated- that he can have his cake and eat it too.
Quote:
No doubt Sasuke still plans to keep his promise of killing Naruto and denying everything he stands for. However, he knows he'll never become Hokage if he follows the usual way since he is missing nin and a criminal. He must have some idea to do it, and Sasuke has never been patient.
No doubt? Why would he want to? Sasuke said he'd kill Naruto because Naruto's purpose was to protect the village at all cost whereas Sasuke intended to destroy everything related to Konoha. Now that he decided to protect Konoha as well why would he want to kill Naruto? I understand it's difficult to understand on which side our little face heel revolving door Uchiha is on a given day but in his current state of mind he has no reason to plan for Naruto's death.
And as far as impatient goes, he went to train during 3 years with a man he despised and planed to kill when the time was right. I'd say that's very patient.
Quote:
Nothings been forgiven though or agreed with from any of Naruto's antagonist. Just because you understand someone doesn't mean you forgive them. Naruto basically said that to Nagato back during the final momnets of Pain's Invasion arc. However, I do believe Naruto eventually forgave him by referring Nagato as his senior pupil later on, but I'm sure the rest of Konoha hasn't.
I like your nothing followed by your however.
There are two antagonists who weren't excused : Hidan and Kakuzu. And that's only because the author had to cut their story short because according to the 3rd Data Book they were also screwed by society.
Crazed serial killer Gaara is a gentle soul, Nagato on his throne of children corpses is forgiven, genocidal Itachi is an admirable saint, Danzou -probably the most despicable man in the story- only wanted the good of Konoha, Sasuke is a victim of this era, Hell the Kyubi as a living incarnation of hatred ended up to be just a Tsundere.
There is almost no degree of responsibility charged against them. They are tragic, misguided, well intentioned extremist. A good talk and a hug make everything better.
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Old 2013-05-26, 01:47   Link #225
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
haha that's a good point. i dont like that either. even if tobi had been a senju or izuna or another uchiha he would still be from konoha... this war should have been between villages. for instance: akatsuki, stone and mist vs konoha, sand, cloud and samurai. and then interspersing the smaller villages on either side as well. something like that would have been infinitely better in my opinion
And i forgot Itachi and Kabuto, that was another key point of the war
If Tsunade didn't sacrifice herself then she would be the only one survivor of the 5 kages.

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Originally Posted by Haloid View Post
That's problematic because he has a long and not so great history with the Konoha. He did assassinate one of the Konoha's leaders and he was affiliated with the organization that was responsible for the village's destruction.
Technically he did much more for Konoha than any other of the ex-genins with whom he graduated:
- he destroyed Orochimaru's organization, he subverted Orochimaru to actually help Konoha in this war
- he killed 3 S-class criminals: Orochi, Deidara and Itachi (well we know this is not reality, but it's mostly secret)
- he prevented Gaara's transformation inside of Konoha
- he killed Danzou who by that time had become the largest obstacle between Konoha and the alliance and who would not let go his hokage title without a fight
- and finally in this current chapter he saved the world by having the 4 kages save the remainder of the alliance

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Originally Posted by Haloid View Post
There are plenty of ways he can protect the Konoha without being its kage.
But if he's not the kage there would be no reason for him to protect the village.

Last edited by Ero-Senn1n; 2013-05-26 at 02:02.
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Old 2013-05-26, 02:37   Link #226
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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Do you imply that Gaara is still secretly an insane psychopath who get off the idea on killing people and would murder his own siblings if they dared to talk back?
Why are you comparing Gaara to Sasuke? They are two completely different people. If you're going to bring that time during the Chuunin Exam that was brought up again during he Five Kage Summit, you don't need to. I'll explain it. Yes, Gaara said before they have the same eyes that look in darkness. They both experienced solitude and want revenge on those that brought it upon them. You could say Naruto was the same before Iruka acknowledged him. However, their circumstances are completely different. Gaara was similar to Naruto, having to carry the burden of being a Jinchuuriki. Sasuke had to face losing his entire clan.

However, Gaara was able to change thanks to Naruto and his actions while carrying the same burden as him. He chose to change to become someone needed by others. Sasuke already had important friends in Team 7, but chose to give it all up for revenge, while Gaara's circumstances were forced on him. Also, Sasuke has always been arrogant and self centered. In the beginning, he looked down on Naruto, but when he noticed Naruto becoming stronger, he quickly started feeling inferior and take his anger out on his teammates and Kakashi. For the sake of his revenge, he willingly cut his ties to bonds he didn't work hard for, unlike Gaara and Naruto who really had to work for them.

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Well ok but I'm not sure I understand how that answer my point. You said that Sasuke would be furious if he realized that Naruto was following Itachi's legacy more than he does but my problem with your claim is that Sasuke never thought he was following his brother's legacy, in fact he was purposely doing just the opposite until a few hours ago and even when he changed his mind he admitted that Hashirama and his brother had the exact same ideal on protecting the village at all cost which is also Naruto's philosophy although Naruto thinks -and will be vindicated- that he can have his cake and eat it too.
As you know, Sasuke is quite touchy when others mention his clan or his brother, or claims to understand him, and tries to persuade him to stop seeking revenge. He got quite upset when Danzo mentioned Itachi. Before back in Part 1, when Kakashi had to bound him to a tree in order to talk to him after his fight with Naruto on the hospital roof, he yelled at Kakashi when he said to give up on revenge, saying maybe he should kill someone important to Kakashi to make him understand.

During Naruto and Sasuke's fight in the valley of the end, Sasuke gets upset claiming to Naruto that he could never understand how he feels because Naruto was alone from the start. He never had ties with anyone. Before Naruto and Sasuke exchanged techniques after Danzo was killed, and after Naruto said he understands Sasuke's motivations, Sasuke lashes out again saying the same thing he said at the Valley of the End, calling Naruto an Outsider. After all these examples, why wouldn't Sasuke lash out again at the mere mention of Itachi by someone else. Let alone that someone claims the person he finds a nusaince and an outsider is truly following Itachi's will (or sharing his will of fire).

Quote:
No doubt? Why would he want to? Sasuke said he'd kill Naruto because Naruto's purpose was to protect the village at all cost whereas Sasuke intended to destroy everything related to Konoha. Now that he decided to protect Konoha as well why would he want to kill Naruto? I understand it's difficult to understand on which side our little face heel revolving door Uchiha is on a given day but in his current state of mind he has no reason to plan for Naruto's death.
And as far as impatient goes, he went to train during 3 years with a man he despised and planed to kill when the time was right. I'd say that's very patient.
Because he promised Naruto back when they exchanged techniques at the bridge after Danzo died. Neither of them have gone back on their words. That won't change now.

Quote:
I like your nothing followed by your however.
There are two antagonists who weren't excused : Hidan and Kakuzu. And that's only because the author had to cut their story short because according to the 3rd Data Book they were also screwed by society.
Crazed serial killer Gaara is a gentle soul, Nagato on his throne of children corpses is forgiven, genocidal Itachi is an admirable saint, Danzou -probably the most despicable man in the story- only wanted the good of Konoha, Sasuke is a victim of this era, Hell the Kyubi as a living incarnation of hatred ended up to be just a Tsundere.
There is almost no degree of responsibility charged against them. They are tragic, misguided, well intentioned extremist. A good talk and a hug make everything better.
None of the villains have gotten off easy. Where are they now? Nagato was first dead, then brought back only to be sealed by the Sword of Tsurugi. Itachi is dead forever known to the world as a clans killer and S-rank criminal. Kisame, Konan, Deidara, and Sasori are dead. Its true some of them were at peace when they died, but their crimes weren't excused. Gaara was not a serial killer. He only killed when on missions, sleep depravity, or when attacked. He wasn't even a villain. He was used more by his village than acting independently. I for one am glad we get to see the antagonists motivation for their actions, but still as I said before, understanding does not mean forgiveness.
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Old 2013-05-26, 03:36   Link #227
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^2 quick points you need to consider. first off, gaara was a merciless psychopathic serial killer. He killed many people from his own village as well as others. people are saying sasuke was bad for killing the samurai and cant be hokage due to that, but gaara did way way way worse and became a well respected kazekage. secondly, no one is saying nagato, itachi, etc... weren't killed and led awful lives. but we are saying that they are now well thought of, respected and treated as basically saints and role models when in fact they were psychopathic murderers. kishi is trying to get the readers to forget about all their misdeeds since they converted to narutism, but we think they should still be held accountable for them
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Old 2013-05-26, 04:48   Link #228
Ero-Senn1n
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^
In the Narutoverse most organizations and people are disgusting murderers by today's standards
I mean Gaara's father sent ninja to kill him multiple times. People hated him. He had a demon sealed in him. All this shit at a very young age and without any love from parents which in our modern world we take for granted (but in the ancient civilizations where people had dozens of children who mostly died was not the case). The kakashi gaiden shows how Konoha used children in war. In later chapters we see Rin and Kushina being kidnapped by different villages, same happened with Hinata, and those acts made by villages are not only evil but also disgustingly coward. In the great village of the "will of fire" we see Danzou trading with children and using them to kill each other and anyone the village leadership (part of it) wants. And we could go on with the examples of how sick a world Kishimoto created, so i really don't see any problem with the behavior of Gaara and Sasuke and all the other guys (akatsuki, Kabuto, etc.).

Even in our world there are people who are used by others to become suicide bombers, sometimes they are brought up from childhood with constant programming their mind to become suicide bombers, sometimes they become terrorists after half a year spent in some strange secret camps where they teach them ideologies to kill random people (like the recent marathon bomber guys). So i don't have problems imagining that people can change in relatively short times like Sasuke did or that there are people like Sai who are programmed like machines to follow orders withou feelings.

Sure there are transitions in characters that are not really smooth to say the least (sometimes their character development is seriously broken, like in Sasuke's case), but it's just because of this shonen manga format that something that should take months or weeks is condensed into a short conversation (Sasuke and Hashirama speak and the magical words change Sasuke in mere minutes, same when he speaks with Itachi).
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Old 2013-05-26, 05:56   Link #229
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
^2 quick points you need to consider. first off, gaara was a merciless psychopathic serial killer. He killed many people from his own village as well as others. people are saying sasuke was bad for killing the samurai and cant be hokage due to that, but gaara did way way way worse and became a well respected kazekage. secondly, no one is saying nagato, itachi, etc... weren't killed and led awful lives. but we are saying that they are now well thought of, respected and treated as basically saints and role models when in fact they were psychopathic murderers. kishi is trying to get the readers to forget about all their misdeeds since they converted to narutism, but we think they should still be held accountable for them
Gaara killed so many people because they tried to kill him first (assassination attempts, missions etc), so unless you believe he shouldn't have tried to fight back I don't see where the problem is. Additionally the term serial killer means nothing in the ninja world, where killing is part of their job description.
Also while he changed into a better person thanks to Naruto, he still needed to change the minds of the Suna people on his own and that mind change had nothing to do with Naruto in any way.

As for people like Nagato and Itachi they influenced Naruto more than he influenced them so this Narutism talk is off the mark. It was Nagato who got Naruto thinking about peace and ending the cycle of hatred and Itachi helped reinforce that. Also the wider world still sees them as criminals and murderers, despised by everyone, and those who know the truth behind their actions aren't talking, so this stuff about role models and saints doesn't really hold water.
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Old 2013-05-26, 11:15   Link #230
Hunter
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Why are you comparing Gaara to Sasuke?
Why wouldn't I? Gaara used to be considerably worse than Sasuke ever was both in mind and in deeds and he was magically changed overnight after a good talk from Naruto and yet you and SoloPanda are basically saying that a leopard cannot change its spots when, and only when, Sasuke is concerned.
I mean self centered? Gaara used to be the kind of guy who softly chuckled, shaked uncontrollably and talked to his dead mother at the thought of being covered with the blood of his victims. He was on his way to murder Rock Lee in his hospital bed out of spite and would have killed Naruto and Shikamaru because they stood there. He threatened his siblings to death if they but dared to reason with him. Murder was literally the sole thing that made Gaara feel alive, Sasuke's mental state is trivial by comparison.
But then he was talked down and became a caring, loving and loved back individual, just like that. So can Sasuke follow the same pattern after Hashirama talked him down? Well apparently that's unimaginable in his case because... Well, Because.
Quote:
As you know, Sasuke is quite touchy when others mention his clan or his brother, or claims to understand him, and tries to persuade him to stop seeking revenge.
[...]
Listing all the instances of Sasuke being touchy at the mention of his vengeance and his brother is all fine and dandy but it doesn't answer my question in the slightest. I've no doubt that Sasuke would get mad at Naruto if he was bad mouthing his brother or if he tried to stop him from his goal but he already knows and acknowledge that Naruto, Hashirama and their likes follows Itachi's legacy.
I feel this is similar to people saying they relish how mad Sasuke will be when he learns that Naruto's dad is the 4th despite Sasuke having no reason whatsoever to care about that. I honestly believe you enjoy the idea of Sasuke being pissed because of something Naruto has in any capacity regardless of whether he'd have any reason to be angry or not.

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Because he promised Naruto back when they exchanged techniques at the bridge after Danzo died. Neither of them have gone back on their words. That won't change now.
He promised Naruto would be the first person from Konoha he'd kill which I hope you realize doesn't matter anymore if he intends to protect Konoha from now on. Sasuke thought of himself as an hawk but he's more of a weather cock really and right now he appears to have somewhat adopted Naruto's point of view so I ask again, why would Sasuke still plan to kill Naruto now?

Quote:
None of the villains have gotten off easy. Where are they now? Nagato was first dead, then brought back only to be sealed by the Sword of Tsurugi. Itachi is dead forever known to the world as a clans killer and S-rank criminal. Kisame, Konan, Deidara, and Sasori are dead. Its true some of them were at peace when they died, but their crimes weren't excused. Gaara was not a serial killer. He only killed when on missions, sleep depravity, or when attacked. He wasn't even a villain. He was used more by his village than acting independently. I for one am glad we get to see the antagonists motivation for their actions, but still as I said before, understanding does not mean forgiveness.
Yeah I call bollocks on that. Being dead is mostly irrelevant to the argument I am making, lots of good people died to, so what? Look at Naruto talking to his fellow disciple Edo Nagato and tell me his crimes weren't forgiven because he realized he was wrong at the end. I already addressed Gaara above and you must have missed how Kisame died with honor earning the undying esteem of his enemies. And what about Itachi the most serious offender of them all in this aspect. The guy isn't even meant to be misguided, he's the tragic greater good. Mass murder, torture, mind rape and various pointless cruelty?


Sleep well you sweet prince, the world shall not see such an angel anytime soon!

Look I'm not going to list nearly every single antagonists in the show when it's the entire point of this story since Zabuza. Very evil individual=>Good talk generally from Naruto=>Realization and contrition of the antagonist and/or realization that the antagonist wasn't so bad=> we're all good people victim of our circumstances but I'll change this world dattebayo!

All of this to say, what could possibly make you think that Sasuke's case is so different when his final redemption has been his fate from the very start?
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Old 2013-05-26, 12:37   Link #231
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
^In the Narutoverse most organizations and people are disgusting murderers by today's standards
that's not really my point. i'm comparing ninja to ninja. it's one thing for danzo to kill the ninja who jumped him on the way to the summit. or for kakashi to kill haku and zabuza on a legit mission where one of the sides was going to die no matter what. it's a totally different thing for danzo to corrupt and torture children or for gaara to crave murder and kill ninja who weren't nearly on his level in fighting ability like in the forest of death or prior to the chuunin exam. it's comparable to reality in soldiers. if a soldier kills another soldier on the opposite side who was planning on killing him then it is at least somewhat justifiable. it isn't justifiable for a soldier to kill kids or rape or kill women after burning down a poor village. there is a moral difference there. that's what danzo, itachi and nagato did. characters like kakashi, asuma, etc... are prepared to kill, but only when necessary in a fair fight where there isn't an alternative. it's true that killing is killing, but there's a moral difference when discussing torture, mind rape, human experimentation and killing innocents or the weak

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Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
Gaara killed so many people because they tried to kill him first (assassination attempts, missions etc), so unless you believe he shouldn't have tried to fight back I don't see where the problem is. Additionally the term serial killer means nothing in the ninja world, where killing is part of their job description.
if you don't see a difference between a character like kakashi who reluctantly kills when he absolutely has to and someone like gaara who literally salivated over the thought of murder then we'll never see eye to eye on this

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As for people like Nagato and Itachi they influenced Naruto more than he influenced them so this Narutism talk is off the mark. It was Nagato who got Naruto thinking about peace and ending the cycle of hatred
no. it was jiraiya who talked about this to both nagato and naruto as his students. nagato took it in the psychopathic, murderous, world domination, god-complex direction. naruto took it in the sane, peaceful, almost ghandi-like direction

Quote:
Also the wider world still sees them as criminals and murderers, despised by everyone, and those who know the truth behind their actions aren't talking, so this stuff about role models and saints doesn't really hold water.
you misunderstand. i'm talking about the impression kishi is putting on the readers. sure the average shmoe has no idea what really happened with itachi. but we the reader know everything and kishi is portraying him as an ideal, angelic, role model and literally called him 'perfect' through sasuke's words. similar with nagato. there is no stain on their characters for mass murder including children and weak innocents and severe torture among other things
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Old 2013-05-26, 13:27   Link #232
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
^2 quick points you need to consider. first off, gaara was a merciless psychopathic serial killer. He killed many people from his own village as well as others. people are saying sasuke was bad for killing the samurai and cant be hokage due to that, but gaara did way way way worse and became a well respected kazekage. secondly, no one is saying nagato, itachi, etc... weren't killed and led awful lives. but we are saying that they are now well thought of, respected and treated as basically saints and role models when in fact they were psychopathic murderers. kishi is trying to get the readers to forget about all their misdeeds since they converted to narutism, but we think they should still be held accountable for them
Adding on to what Bonsobon said, Gaara only really went out looking for a fight when the either the ones he fought survivied like Lee and others he was going to fight eventually like Sasuke. Though in Sasuke's case, Gaara didn't really start anything, but instead just talked to him. It's not like Gaara went out on a killing spree whenever he felt like.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Why wouldn't I? Gaara used to be considerably worse than Sasuke ever was both in mind and in deeds and he was magically changed overnight after a good talk from Naruto and yet you and SoloPanda are basically saying that a leopard cannot change its spots when, and only when, Sasuke is concerned.
I mean self centered? Gaara used to be the kind of guy who softly chuckled, shaked uncontrollably and talked to his dead mother at the thought of being covered with the blood of his victims. He was on his way to murder Rock Lee in his hospital bed out of spite and would have killed Naruto and Shikamaru because they stood there. He threatened his siblings to death if they but dared to reason with him. Murder was literally the sole thing that made Gaara feel alive, Sasuke's mental state is trivial by comparison.
But then he was talked down and became a caring, loving and loved back individual, just like that. So can Sasuke follow the same pattern after Hashirama talked him down? Well apparently that's unimaginable in his case because... Well, Because.
This is my first time hearing Gaara was worst than Sasuke. Even so, that's quite a shallow assumption. Gaara didn't choose to live like that, but had to in order to keep living, while Sasuke could have stayed with his friends and follow a btter path, but chose one of self destruction. I don't see why there are those that think Gaara is worse than Sasuke.

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Listing all the instances of Sasuke being touchy at the mention of his vengeance and his brother is all fine and dandy but it doesn't answer my question in the slightest. I've no doubt that Sasuke would get mad at Naruto if he was bad mouthing his brother or if he tried to stop him from his goal but he already knows and acknowledge that Naruto, Hashirama and their likes follows Itachi's legacy.
I feel this is similar to people saying they relish how mad Sasuke will be when he learns that Naruto's dad is the 4th despite Sasuke having no reason whatsoever to care about that. I honestly believe you enjoy the idea of Sasuke being pissed because of something Naruto has in any capacity regardless of whether he'd have any reason to be angry or not.
He hasn't acknowledged Naruto of anything even now. Take his latest appearence. Have you seen him even respond to Naruto at all? Also, it's not Hashirama that followed Itachi's will, but Itachi that followed Hashirama's will, the will of fire every Shinobi in Konoha has. Also because of Sasuke's Uchiha-complex, he'll never accept someone other than an Uchiha to follow Itachi's will. Simple as that.

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He promised Naruto would be the first person from Konoha he'd kill which I hope you realize doesn't matter anymore if he intends to protect Konoha from now on. Sasuke thought of himself as an hawk but he's more of a weather cock really and right now he appears to have somewhat adopted Naruto's point of view so I ask again, why would Sasuke still plan to kill Naruto now?
Remember back when Sasuke was heading to the battlefield after leaving Obito's hideout. After interrogating a white zetsu clone, he found out where Naruto was, that he was fighting to protect everyone. Sasuke goes into how Naruto should remember what Sasuke said before to him about only those who have cut of their bonds can truly become strong. He said he was heading there to kill Naruto to keep his promise. Naruto wasn't even in Konoha for Sasuke to decide that. Considering his indifference towards everyone in the latest chapter, he still believes that, considering he thinks he can become Hokage without the villages consent.


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Yeah I call bollocks on that. Being dead is mostly irrelevant to the argument I am making, lots of good people died to, so what? Look at Naruto talking to his fellow disciple Edo Nagato and tell me his crimes weren't forgiven because he realized he was wrong at the end. I already addressed Gaara above and you must have missed how Kisame died with honor earning the undying esteem of his enemies. And what about Itachi the most serious offender of them all in this aspect. The guy isn't even meant to be misguided, he's the tragic greater good. Mass murder, torture, mind rape and various pointless cruelty?


Sleep well you sweet prince, the world shall not see such an angel anytime soon!

Look I'm not going to list nearly every single antagonists in the show when it's the entire point of this story since Zabuza. Very evil individual=>Good talk generally from Naruto=>Realization and contrition of the antagonist and/or realization that the antagonist wasn't so bad=> we're all good people victim of our circumstances but I'll change this world dattebayo!

All of this to say, what could possibly make you think that Sasuke's case is so different when his final redemption has been his fate from the very start?
Because he hasn't been given redemption. Shikamaru and Shino even said that. Plus, from the way Sasuke sounds he could care less if the village forgives him. showing he still hates the village. About Nagato, yes, I believe Naruto forgives him, but the rest of Konoha hasn't. With Kisame, it's true he was an enemy, but that doesn't mean you can't respect him as a fellow shinobi, and just because some shinobi respect him doesn't mean his crimes are lifted. With Itachi, the world still knows him as a criminal and kins murderer. According to a flashback Sasuke had, some shinobi were happy he was dead. What do you suppose the shinobi do with criminals? They either capture them to get information or kill them. They don't incarcerate them in some jail.
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Old 2013-05-26, 13:46   Link #233
Hunter
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Originally Posted by bonsobon View Post
As for people like Nagato and Itachi they influenced Naruto more than he influenced them so this Narutism talk is off the mark. It was Nagato who got Naruto thinking about peace and ending the cycle of hatred and Itachi helped reinforce that..
That's a good one, Naruto transformed Nagato from a deluded apocalyptic and sociopathic mass murderer back into a nice guy sharing his view whereas Nagato developed on issues Jiraiya had already addressed. Itachi is a saint so he doesn't have the same problem but even him put all his hopes for the future into Naruto.
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Also the wider world still sees them as criminals and murderers, despised by everyone, and those who know the truth behind their actions aren't talking, so this stuff about role models and saints doesn't really hold water.
You do realize that the off panel imaginary opinion of unnamed red shirts is completely meaningless? We're talking about how those characters are displayed to the readers.
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Old 2013-05-26, 13:55   Link #234
Eragon
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Anyway, since I don't have anything to do I will jump in with some things(relevant or not).

About the whole Gaara being worse than Sasuke before his "conversion" to you-know-what, I think Hunter and Itachi-san have the correct take on that. Taking down assassins is one thing, getting off on killing others like in the chunnin exams is quite another. Now, I don't give a damn how he was treated - Sasuke has it worse if you ask me not to mention Naruto. Anyway, excusing most of his actions on the grounds of "he had to do that" comes off pretty weak.

Kishi is projecting those impressions of Itachi, Nagato etc etc. on his audience(as Itachi-san already mentioned) and not the Naruto-verse. Since, save a few select people nobody else knows what exactly happened to Nagato or Itachi or..... their opinions are biased. The author's motive in giving them such sob stories is to invoke empathy for them in his audience. And seeing the replies here, he has obviously succeeded.

I, too, hope Kishi doesn't write Sasuke to be as petty as to want to kill Naruto just because he said he follows Itachi's path. All that indifference you talked about will count for shit if can't even maintain his composure over a FACT. Oh, and Sasuke acknowledges Naruto alright - implicitly. He doesn't have to say it for it to be interpreted as such.


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Old 2013-05-26, 14:09   Link #235
Hunter
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I've to leave right now so I'll have to answer your last post later Kurohane so just a quick thing : I'm not talking about who had his worse or even who was most crazy (although I do think it's quite obvious that Gaara at his worst had fallen even further into insanity) but the simple fact that their "evilness" was at the very least equivalent, that it didn't take much for Gaara to turn back into a good man and that similarly Sasuke is in the process of turning a new leaf (no pun intended). It's not finished and he'll have a last word with Naruto to end the process but it's very obviously going on right now.
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Old 2013-05-26, 14:41   Link #236
Kurohane
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The more you try to sum things up like that, the more you'll be surprised. As fans, we don't have to think up all the nitty-gritty details that lead to those guesses. As a result, our assumptions are often proven wrong. I remember those saying Obito would convert after hearing what happen to Rin. The actuallity is Obito already knew. Others stated Obito started this war for Rin. The actuality is Obito just wants to escape the harshness of the shinobi world as he's been saying before. As Kakashi said, Obito just wants to run away. This story is quite omplex and has much thought put into it. People can make assumptions all they want. It's a part of the discussion, but it bugs me when others comment implying the story is predictable.
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Old 2013-05-26, 14:51   Link #237
Ero-Senn1n
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's not really my point. i'm comparing ninja to ninja.
It seemed to me that you were judging them in absolute terms, but when we look at it at relative terms it's doesn't stand out that much from the overall picture.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's one thing for danzo to kill the ninja who jumped him on the way to the summit.
...
No, i was talking about Konoha's leadership which allowed Danzou to be part of it. Danzou was responsible for countless atrocities which he could commit because of being part of Konoha's leadership. Unfortunately Kishimoto chose to forget the thing by simply letting him be killed by Sasuke instead of letting his crimes come out on surface. And that is another ugly side of this world: all the secrets and lies of the villages which they try to bury deep. And it's not only Danzou, the tsuchikage admits to using akatsuki, the 3 examples that i mentioned where they kidnap children of other villages. Konoha sending children into the battle, this is something that we see in the worst places of Africa. My point is that these legal organizations often commited worse crimes than terrorists.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
there is a moral difference there. that's what danzo, itachi and nagato did.
That's what i'm saying, Danzou was in Konoha's leadership. And not only Danzou, there are many others. The great villages invaded the rain country and as a result that country was ruined, it is the responsability of these villages that so many civilians died. If we just look at the simple numbers the villages caused much more death and suffering than the akatsuki and other "criminals". And that's only the direct effect, the indirect effect is that these villages trained these S-class killer machines to be so strong, they created people like Orochimaru and other akatsuki.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
characters like kakashi, asuma, etc... are prepared to kill, but only when necessary in a fair fight where there isn't an alternative.
They are just soldiers who have to follow orders, and those guys are usually simple minded so they will do what they are told to do. Those who would break the rules (the rule is that ninja are just "tools") are only a very few, among them obviously Kakashi and Naruto, but they are the ones who can bend rules without consequences since they have plot shield

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
it's true that killing is killing, but there's a moral difference when discussing torture, mind rape, human experimentation and killing innocents or the weak
I agree on this, as i explained above my point was that the villages also did all these disgusting things, and so these akatsuki members didn't stand out of the system. Just think about what the mist village did to Rin.
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Old 2013-05-26, 17:55   Link #238
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n View Post
No, i was talking about Konoha's leadership which allowed Danzou to be part of it. Danzou was responsible for countless atrocities which he could commit because of being part of Konoha's leadership. Unfortunately Kishimoto chose to forget the thing by simply letting him be killed by Sasuke instead of letting his crimes come out on surface. And that is another ugly side of this world: all the secrets and lies of the villages which they try to bury deep.
but what you're talking about is danzo. saying konoha's leadership isn't accurate. the atrocities were danzo's. it does come down to an individual. it wasn't sarutobi, minato or tsunade doing these things. it wasn't most of the other ninja or the civilians. we dont know the full extent of the other 2 elders deeds. we know they went along with danzo, but they are mostly irrelevant characters anyway

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Konoha sending children into the battle, this is something that we see in the worst places of Africa. My point is that these legal organizations often commited worse crimes than terrorists.
the children are always protected when there are battles (orochimaru's invasion, nagato's invasion, kyuubi attack) genin level ninja are older and not treated like children. yes they are still young by our standards, but keep in mind that they are powerful magic people stronger than human adults and in most cases, just as smart and knowledgeable. and still against a force like the kyuubi, the adults kept non-adult ninja back and forbade them to fight

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That's what i'm saying, Danzou was in Konoha's leadership. And not only Danzou, there are many others. The great villages invaded the rain country and as a result that country was ruined, it is the responsability of these villages that so many civilians died.
i agree, but you make it sound like theres a ton of leaders, senators, etc... these villages are all run by either 1 person or a handful of people. it's really all on individuals as far as i'm concerned

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I agree on this, as i explained above my point was that the villages also did all these disgusting things, and so these akatsuki members didn't stand out of the system. Just think about what the mist village did to Rin.
but they didn't. konoha didn't partake in human experimentation, it was all danzo and orochimaru. they didn't torture people, it was all orochimaru, danzo, and itachi. i dont agree with your blanket statements that the villages did these horrible things. it was only a select few individuals from each village who were responsible. that's why sasuke's vengeance against the konoha elders made sense to me. his vengeance against the entire village didn't and was the ravings of a madman
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Old 2013-05-27, 02:47   Link #239
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
but they didn't. konoha didn't partake in human experimentation, it was all danzo and orochimaru.
Well we could call that the corruption of the system too, but in this case that you mentioned it was the 3rd hokage to blame for it, he didn't kill those two because of one being his childhood friend and the other his beloved disciple. He even admitted to the other hokages and Sasuke that he is responsible for many things that happened. They even admitted that at 7 years old Itachi had the way of thinking of a hokage, yet they ordered him to spy on his own clan and later to kill his own clan. You say a 12 years old is not a child any more in that world, but then what is a 7 year old? Also you can't defend the 3rd by saying that he didn't know anything of this, since even the raikage and others know about Danzou's dark business, that was made clear at the kage summit. But even not knowing does not absolve an absolute leader, he must know about what happens in the name of his organization.

But most importantly we shouldn't single out just Danzou and Orochi, they are only the most evil examples but there are many others. Why didn't you take the example of Rin's abduction in your example? Or the one of Hinata and Kushina? Crimes commited by the cloud and mist villages. The whole demon host thing is a crime, they regularily sacrificed children like KillerBee or Gaara for their little experiments with the tailed beasts.
Or the example of the Tsuchikage and possibly other villages using the akatsuki in their secret dark businesses against each other. It's funny how akatsuki turned against their former employers: the americans used Bin Laden against the soviets in the cold war in afganistan, but later the thing backfired when Bin Laden turned against the americans

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i dont agree with your blanket statements that the villages did these horrible things. it was only a select few individuals from each village who were responsible.
Those who commited crimes were at the top or just inside these organizations, that makes the organization responsible. I guess this is the root of our disagreement, you single out these individuals and say they were responsible but the most of the organization is not. I can understand this viewpoint, but in my opinion a military organization should be viewed as one entity. Looking it in that way we are both right and wrong I think Kishimoto creates such situations on purpose, they are often very similar to our real world situations where you can't clearly blame one or another, we can discuss such things but there cannot be made a clear judgment, so such situations cannot be resolved by some rational thinking, they should involve someone's emotions/feelings. I mean these are undecideable situations and questions that cannot be answered, so we could debate who is responsible till the end of times. Just like in the real world when people debate who was responsible for a war or massacre, and then they begin to come up with a long chain of events where both sides commited more and more crimes against each other that in the end resulted in a tragedy, but there's no way to tell who is more responsible.

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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
that's why sasuke's vengeance against the konoha elders made sense to me. his vengeance against the entire village didn't and was the ravings of a madman
We agree on this one, Sasuke lost his mind at that point.
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Old 2013-05-27, 09:21   Link #240
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The corruption of the ninja world has effected everyone that lives in it.Good ,bad.or ugly.
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