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Old 2013-05-28, 19:11   Link #261
Cookie-Monster
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lol what are you guys talking about!

You act as if Sasuke's actions thus far are not meant to be noticed. As if its supposed to be simply his character and a non-issue. Him suddenly arriving, exchanging words with the other genin, even managing a half-smile of sakura, and he doesn't even bother LOOKING at naruto ;

No one is saying he should apologize or give naruto a big hug, but seriously ... not even some eye-contact?

The obvious part is of-course all of his antics were meant directly for Naruto's ears. He didn't say he was going to become hokage because he wanted approval from the cannon fodder. He said it because he wanted naruto to hear it.

What is irritating is how un-savory his whole attitude is.

Talk to the people who gave up on you ages ago and badmouthed you.
Ignore the one guy who all those years never bad mouthed you and tried to help you reach the exact position you now are.

You can look at it from any angle you want. Bottom line is that Sasuke's animace towards Naruto stems from at best being 'childish', to at worst being butt-hurt.
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Old 2013-05-28, 19:15   Link #262
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
The obvious part is of-course all of his antics were meant directly for Naruto's ears. He didn't say he was going to become hokage because he wanted approval from the cannon fodder. He said it because he wanted naruto to hear it.
this. you seem to understand... sasuke isn't the type to give direct acknowledgement to naruto. he never has done that. doing it in this roundabout way is exactly like his character

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What is irritating is how un-savory his whole attitude is.
and that's the way he's always been...
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Old 2013-05-28, 19:17   Link #263
Midnight Commander
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
oh hi naruto! it's me sasuke! boy you sure got big and strong!
lol had Sasuke done that, even Naruto himself would've probably put on the same “wtf-face” as the rest of the 11 when Sasuke declared he'd become Hokage. Sasuke has never been much of an outgoing character in that way, yet once its for more Naruto fan-service, logic and consistency can fly out the window for all they care. Its funny because if Sasuke recieves acknowledgment in any shape or form, like the female characters being attracted to him; they're up in arms about it : /
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Old 2013-05-28, 19:38   Link #264
Artful Dodger
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Originally Posted by Cookie-Monster View Post
No one is saying he should apologize or give naruto a big hug, but seriously ... not even some eye-contact?
I'm sure there will be some interaction as we progress. Still, when Naruto said "Let's go Sasuke!", Sasuke did hop along with him, so its not like he's childishly pretending he's not present.

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The obvious part is of-course all of his antics were meant directly for Naruto's ears. He didn't say he was going to become hokage because he wanted approval from the cannon fodder. He said it because he wanted naruto to hear it.
Perhaps... But I doubt it. He didn't just jump in there and declare it on his own, Sakura asked him why he returned and he simply told her why. I'm sure if Naruto wasn't there at the moment he'd have said the same thing. I believe Sasuke does acknowledge Naruto underneath it all, but he's simply not the type to fawn all over him like some people seem to want here.
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Old 2013-05-28, 21:46   Link #265
Hunter
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
I don't understand whats up with everyone and all this “acknowledgment” talk? How much more do you want Naruto to be acknowledged? [...]
Sasuke most probably will have to in the future though, either by realizing that Naruto would make a better Kage than him to resolve the issue they both want fixed or if somehow Naruto give him/convince the village to bestow Sasuke with the title. Regarless of the minutes details of the ending, it's going to have Sasuke looking up to Naruto even if grudgingly.



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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
First of all, I said he only killed when attacked, on missions and results of insomnia. All I'm saying is Gaara was understandable once you knew his background. Sasuke was less understandable. You can feel sympathetic that he lost his entire clan, but his superior attitude easily made you forget that. That's all I'm saying. Just because I said Gaara wasn't worse than Sasuke doesn't mean Sasuke was worse than Gaara. I don't rank characters like that. This all started when Gaara was mentioned out of nowhere where it didn't make sense to me because they are two different characters.
Yes you said that, and it is wrong. Gaara killed whether he was on mission or not and whether he was attacked or not. He killed because he felt like it, period.
As far as the reason why Gaara was brought into the discussion, I explained that 3 times now, I don't think repeating myself once more will do any good.
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Naruto does not change people only from words , but from his actions that show his determination. Kurama basically said that. I dislike when people use the terms talk-no-jutsu or plot-no-jutsu.
You may dislike it but it's true nonetheles. Naruto changed Zabuza just by talking to him. He did the same with Neji who was still holding to his gun until Naruto gave him The Speech. His tenacity had more of a role with Gaara and Tsunade but the absolute turning point that magically turned Gaara into a good boy also happened when Naruto made his final speech. Talking is also how he changed Chiyo before they even reached the Akatsuki cave, change finalized when he told her how he felt about Gaara's death. Sai's emotion? Same old talk. Nagato? Completely unmoved until the very end when Naruto took hold of the Mighty Book and Told him... Well told him nothing really but his words matter more than their meaning. The Tsuchikage? Talk by proxy. Bee's friend? More talk. Naruto's inner self? A littke talk and a hug. The Kyubi? Not even a talk to be honest, one hour before he became a Tsundere he was still trying to kill Naruto, Kishimoto didn't even bother for this one.
Naruto's speech get through people and change them for the best, that's what he's all about.
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Why would he? He chose the life that he has? The fact he chose it himself gave him mental fortitude.
I never said Naruto would fail. Whether Naruto fails or not is subjective since it hasn't happened yet. Because you assume everything will be alright with Sasuke, I can't argue with that because that's you opinion. I hope so too.
I don't understand your first sentence, are you talking about Sasuke here? As in why would he be redeemed? You mean other than that it's the protagonist's goal? It has nothing to do with my own feeling about it, as far as I'm concerned I'd have preferred either that evil Sasuke never existed or actually became evil for real and killed Sakura, Kakashi and massacred a significant part of Konoha instead of his meaningless behavior over the last 2 hundreds chapters. And I'd definitively enjoy this chapter much more if all of this was revealed to be the deluded happy dream of Naruto already under Eternal Tsukuyomi along with the rest of the world. The bad guys won, the world is at peace, the end.
But if you look at it objectively you know this has 0 chance of happening. Naruto shall win and his will be done.

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Other posters said otherwise. I wasn't talking about you specifically, but from what I've been hearing from surfing around the net.
I hope you understand that if you answer here the claim of people who aren't posting on this board it's difficult to understand what you're trying to say.

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Because Sasuke has never been one to act mature when his family his mentioned by someone other than him.
You mean like 10 minutes ago when he listened to the Hokage talking about his clan and his brother? He seemed fine to me.

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The point is that Sasuke wanted to kill Naruto while he was at the battlefield, and not at the village. Both of them made a promise to each other and Sasuke remembered that promise. Both of them don't go back on their words.
I genuinely can't grasp your argument. What does Naruto's location has anything to do with that? And yes I know Sasuke said to Naruto he would be the first Konoha ninja he'd kill. That's fine since he won't kill any of them. Or are somehow under the impression that from now on Sasuke will try to kill Naruto for ever because he said so?
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You say that, but Kishimoto has proven to put these side characters in the spotlight from time to time. Of course these characters matter. From what your saying, the audience thoughts are what count for whether criminals or Sasuke are forgiven and not the actual people in the story. However, the Naruto world is the Naruto world, and what goes on in there is completely out of the hands of us fans. In addition, at the end of the day the masses counts more than ours do, and even more Kishimoto who decides what they think. If what you said was true about Naruto's opinion being the only one that mattered, Sasuke would have been brought back a long time ago.
The only one who had a little real spotlight is Shikamaru and even he is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of thing. And yes of course what's important is what is displayed to the audience and not the side characters imaginary opinion. You do realize the actual people in the story aren't actual. Of course the author decide what everybody thinks, that's why they are meaningless compared to the flow of the story. It's just basic narrative structures, Sasuke couldn't have been brought back a long time ago because this event is the resolution of the protagonist's quest.
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All I said is making assumptions come along with the discussion. Nevertheless, I don't like when people imply the story is predictable and then complain about it(not talking about you), especially when in the end, their guesses were wrong. About Obito, now your taking you own opinion over what was stated in the manga.
But once again you're the only person in this thread who mentioned this predictability in the first place, were you answering someone else from another forum? And no I'm talking about what Obito said and what Obito did. The one single event that instantly convinced him to follow Madara's plan was to witness Rin's death. That's a fact.
This is also exactly what he said to Kakashi : the Rin who died isn't real because a real Rin would be alive. Kakashi isn't real because a real Kakashi could have saved Rin. This world isn't real because a real world wouldn't allow Rin to be killed in it. Obito himself can't be real because he's the result of her death. The inciting incident that formed Obito entire philosophy is Rin's death, if you claim that it's not true then would you mind giving me one single example unrelated to Rin?
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Old 2013-05-28, 21:52   Link #266
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
and that's the way he's always been...
Exactly, just because I know his character and understand him, doesn't mean I should disregard when he's being openly callous toward others. Naruto hasn't gotten away with being rude with others, always getting an appropriate consequence, Sasuke should be the same.

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Originally Posted by Hunter View Post
Yes you said that, and it is wrong. Gaara killed whether he was on mission or not and whether he was attacked or not. He killed because he felt like it, period.
As far as the reason why Gaara was brought into the discussion, I explained that 3 times now, I don't think repeating myself once more will do any good.
Those cases you're talking about are from the Insomnia that resulted in Gaara acting in fits. It's not like he killed people at random when having a clear head, unlike those fits where his mind was clearly unstable due to lack of sleep. In kind, I don't understand your logic when you say Gaara was worse than Sasuke. In the end, neither of use can grasp what the other says.

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You may dislike it but it's true nonetheles. Naruto changed Zabuza just by talking to him. He did the same with Neji who was still holding to his gun until Naruto gave him The Speech. His tenacity had more of a role with Gaara and Tsunade but the absolute turning point that magically turned Gaara into a good boy also happened when Naruto made his final speech. Talking is also how he changed Chiyo before they even reached the Akatsuki cave, change finalized when he told her how he felt about Gaara's death. Sai's emotion? Same old talk. Nagato? Completely unmoved until the very end when Naruto took hold of the Mighty Book and Told him... Well told him nothing really but his words matter more than their meaning. The Tsuchikage? Talk by proxy. Bee's friend? More talk. Naruto's inner self? A littke talk and a hug. The Kyubi? Not even a talk to be honest, one hour before he became a Tsundere he was still trying to kill Naruto, Kishimoto didn't even bother for this one.
Naruto's speech get through people and change them for the best, that's what he's all about.
You do realize if Naruto hadn't shown his resolve and determination through his actions, his words would have meant nothing to those he changed. Obito word's lived with Kakashi because he died living by them, or so we believed. Even though the current him now rejects what he used to believe, the impact of that day still lives with Kakashi, plus the fact two of his students uphold those words. About Zabuza, Naruto just drove out the already somber feelings that Zabuza tried to keep repress. Zabuza already felt sorrow over Haku's death, and only acted against Gato when Gato wanted him dead too and showed disrespect by hitting Haku's corpse.

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I don't understand your first sentence, are you talking about Sasuke here? As in why would he be redeemed? You mean other than that it's the protagonist's goal? It has nothing to do with my own feeling about it, as far as I'm concerned I'd have preferred either that evil Sasuke never existed or actually became evil for real and killed Sakura, Kakashi and massacred a significant part of Konoha instead of his meaningless behavior over the last 2 hundreds chapters. And I'd definitively enjoy this chapter much more if all of this was revealed to be the deluded happy dream of Naruto already under Eternal Tsukuyomi along with the rest of the world. The bad guys won, the world is at peace, the end.
But if you look at it objectively you know this has 0 chance of happening. Naruto shall win and his will be done.
The point you made was for how far Sasuke had fallen, he hadn't reached the same amount of madness as Gaara, which in itself is debatable. I responded saying Sasuke chose and prepared himself mentally for any consequences. Of course he had a stronger fortitude to defend against losing his sanity. All in all, If that's how you feel, I can't argue against it, but my opinion is still the same too.

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I hope you understand that if you answer here the claim of people who aren't posting on this board it's difficult to understand what you're trying to say.
Just another opportunity of discussion really. I'm sure you listen to opinions other than here. I was hoping you talk about your own experiences, going off of mine.

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You mean like 10 minutes ago when he listened to the Hokage talking about his clan and his brother? He seemed fine to me.
You mean he didn't glare at them with his Mangekyo Sharingan?

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I genuinely can't grasp your argument. What does Naruto's location has anything to do with that? And yes I know Sasuke said to Naruto he would be the first Konoha ninja he'd kill. That's fine since he won't kill any of them. Or are somehow under the impression that from now on Sasuke will try to kill Naruto for ever because he said so?
Yes, they promised each other. If he wanted to help the village, then yes, he has no reason to follow through anymore. Problem is he doesn't want to help the village. To him, the village is still the source of his clan and Itachi's suffering. He wants to change it by becoming Hokage through whatever means. How he plans to accomplish that determines what actions will occur. Keeping his promise with Naruto seems more likely, since now he can only become Hokage through force, because he'll never be granted the chance even if he rejoins the village, which he hasn't.

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The only one who had a little real spotlight is Shikamaru and even he is completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of thing. And yes of course what's important is what is displayed to the audience and not the side characters imaginary opinion. You do realize the actual people in the story aren't actual. Of course the author decide what everybody thinks, that's why they are meaningless compared to the flow of the story. It's just basic narrative structures, Sasuke couldn't have been brought back a long time ago because this event is the resolution of the protagonist's quest.
However, our original discussion is how the criminals are redeemed. You've been saying the audience decides that when that's not really our call at all. What the audience feels regarding each antagonist varies, and all fans are able to see them in a different light because we know their whole story. However, what matters are the opinions of those in the shinobi world who don't and most likely never will know their hidden stories (regarding certain characters). Even if they did, it doesn't change what they've done. Even if most find them sympathetic and that is a huge if, because these people lived in the same world they existed and actually were around during their terror, their crimes will still exist and never will go away even in death.

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But once again you're the only person in this thread who mentioned this predictability in the first place, were you answering someone else from another forum? And no I'm talking about what Obito said and what Obito did. The one single event that instantly convinced him to follow Madara's plan was to witness Rin's death. That's a fact.
This is also exactly what he said to Kakashi : the Rin who died isn't real because a real Rin would be alive. Kakashi isn't real because a real Kakashi could have saved Rin. This world isn't real because a real world wouldn't allow Rin to be killed in it. Obito himself can't be real because he's the result of her death. The inciting incident that formed Obito entire philosophy is Rin's death, if you claim that it's not true then would you mind giving me one single example unrelated to Rin?
I'm sure I'm not the first. You yourself stated what will eventually conclude with Naruto and Sasuke as what's meant to happen. To do that you must have some thought that the plot is predictable, though you aren't positive unless you read further.

Perhaps, I should have said it wasn't for Rin only, if that's the case my apologizes. Rin is a factor for sure, but she isn't the only reason.
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Last edited by Kurohane; 2013-05-28 at 23:39.
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Old 2013-05-28, 23:17   Link #267
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
Exactly, just because I know his character and understand him, doesn't mean I should disregard when he's being openly callous toward others.
i never said it should be disregarded. i said it wasn't out of character for him to act that way.

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Naruto hasn't gotten away with being rude with others, always getting an appropriate consequence, Sasuke should be the same.
you're not making sense here. it would be out of character for naruto to be rude to others. and if he was rude, he wouldn't get away with it. sasuke only gets away with it from team 7. everyone else pretty much hates him at this point with the exception of possibly the edo-hokages and of course itachi

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those cases you're talking about are from the Insomnia that resulted in Gaara acting in fits. Its not like he killed people at random when having a clear head, unlike those fits where his mind was unstable due to lack of sleep.
i'll just pick out this one point from your other discussion since it's so mind-boggling to me. are you saying that insomnia is justification for being a serial killer? does anyone kill people at random with a clear head?
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Old 2013-05-28, 23:20   Link #268
SoloPanda
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post

you're not making sense here. it would be out of character for naruto to be rude to others. and if he was rude, he wouldn't get away with it. sasuke only gets away with it from team 7. everyone else pretty much hates him at this point with the exception of possibly the edo-hokages and of course itachi
I think he was refering to sasuke having the infalable shoujo hero syndrom. You know the one where he does what ever the heck he wants but no one can stop him cause he's stronger, cooler, and richer than everyone else... ofcourse it's a different type of manga and a different situation that just seems to be what the posts are refering to in Sasuke's case.
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Old 2013-05-28, 23:51   Link #269
Kurohane
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Originally Posted by itachi-san314 View Post
i never said it should be disregarded. i said it wasn't out of character for him to act that way.

you're not making sense here. it would be out of character for naruto to be rude to others. and if he was rude, he wouldn't get away with it. sasuke only gets away with it from team 7. everyone else pretty much hates him at this point with the exception of possibly the edo-hokages and of course itachi

i'll just pick out this one point from your other discussion since it's so mind-boggling to me. are you saying that insomnia is justification for being a serial killer? does anyone kill people at random with a clear head?
I never said it was either or expected him to act differently. I was just expressing how I felt about it.

Ahh, this is hard on me because I don't like to speak ill of Naruto. I should have said his lack of formality of his elders that he gets scolded for. Also, for when he acted unorthodox in Part 1, where he either got hit by Sakura or scolded by Iruka in the very beginning.

You know a serial killing is a series of killing that have a comon trait, like a graduate class, married couples, or people with blond hair. Also, the victims aren't random because they're specifically targeted. It's true Gaara killed from his own village, but you can't call it serial since it didn't continue, especially once Suna gave him missions. No, I agree it isn't a justification, but I can sympathize, because Gaara wasn't doing it intentionally. You do realize he only killed villagers when he was a child before the incident with Yashamaru. The only one we know about was that one guy at night.
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Old 2013-05-28, 23:57   Link #270
Artimus_Prime
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Originally Posted by Artful Dodger View Post
I don't understand whats up with everyone and all this “acknowledgment” talk? How much more do you want Naruto to be acknowledged? He is already heralded as the hero of Konoha, and is certainly the most powerful in his village –a shoe-in for the Kage title, theres no comparison. The Kages of all the ninja villages acknowledged him, and even left Obito up to him(when at first they didn't even want him in the war). All the bijuu pretty much acknowledged him as the second sage of 6. ...Not to mention he's also acknowledged as the “chosen one” who will bring peace to the ninja world... What more do you guys want?

I remember one person several chapters ago even complaining about Madara not being "surprised" over Naruto's use of the kyuubi's chakra. I mean, really, how much do you guys want everyone to fawn over him?
that was me and it wasnt a complaint Artful Dodger, we've been over this...geez louise
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Old 2013-05-29, 06:39   Link #271
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632 has been started. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.
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Old 2013-05-29, 13:57   Link #272
itachi-san314
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Originally Posted by Kurohane View Post
You know a serial killing is a series of killing that have a comon trait, like a graduate class, married couples, or people with blond hair. Also, the victims aren't random because they're specifically targeted.
this is a completely false statement. it's sometimes the case, but is not definitive of a serial killer. straight from wikipedia: A serial killer is traditionally defined as a person who has killed three or more people over a period of more than a month, with down time (a "cooling off period") between the murders, and whose motivation for killing is usually based on psychological gratification ...which of course defines gaara perfectly
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