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Old 2013-06-11, 01:47   Link #61
Winged_Memories
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Originally Posted by ~BC~ View Post
Have you not seen the promotional material for this show? Shoko is very much considered one of the main characters; along with Haruto, L-Elf, and Saki.
Tis what I was thinking
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Old 2013-06-11, 01:59   Link #62
Winged_Memories
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Because there are no mechas that are known for killing off major character half-way through the series.

And certainly none made by Sunrise!

This is part of why this prediction is so popular. Sunrise itself loves to flesh out a side character and then kill it off. Then they use that character for either a local or larger motivation. At the end of the day, Shoko is NOT a main character. She's a character that is important, and very relevant to the story, but she's still very expendable.
That goes without saying...even Haruto has a chance to be killed off as well towards the end I assume (I perish the thought though)...Shouko is one of the main characters and she is a major character as well, there is not much of a difference between main and major...but she is certainly not a side character or supporting one for that matter.
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Old 2013-06-11, 03:13   Link #63
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Shoko never died publicly. She died privately.

She also wasn't a leader, nor a far-reaching beacon of hope for the students.

At the time it was a quiet little tragedy that affected some people. Right now, it would effect everyone.
They already had Aina's death to affect everyone. They even shipped her with Haruto and made him get a different outlook on his curse before offing her just so he would care more when he found out she was dead.

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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
Because there are no mechas that are known for killing off major character half-way through the series.

And certainly none made by Sunrise!

This is part of why this prediction is so popular. Sunrise itself loves to flesh out a side character and then kill it off. Then they use that character for either a local or larger motivation. At the end of the day, Shoko is NOT a main character. She's a character that is important, and very relevant to the story, but she's still very expendable.
I disagree, Shoko IS a main character and has been around since the start. She's the main Heroine and is very important. Saki is less of a main character than Shoko and we all know that Saki sure as heck is a main character too.

Haruto is THEE main character but he isn't the ONLY main character. L-Elf, Shoko, and Saki are the other main characters with Dog and Thunder being bumped out from Minor Character Status to the next level.
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Old 2013-06-11, 04:52   Link #64
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Originally Posted by Destined_Fate View Post
They already had Aina's death to affect everyone. They even shipped her with Haruto and made him get a different outlook on his curse before offing her just so he would care more when he found out she was dead.
I partially agree. However, Aina was still somewhat local. She was a nobody to the masses in the long run, and simply was the first victim to get public spotlight for dying to the Dorssians. On the other hand, the public knows Shoko. Every student knows who Shoko is, and a substantial portion of the population has seen Shoko performing significant roles in this new nation. She was technically their founder as well, even though she's not their official leader.

The scale is very different.

Quote:
I disagree, Shoko IS a main character and has been around since the start. She's the main Heroine and is very important. Saki is less of a main character than Shoko and we all know that Saki sure as heck is a main character too.

Haruto is THEE main character but he isn't the ONLY main character. L-Elf, Shoko, and Saki are the other main characters with Dog and Thunder being bumped out from Minor Character Status to the next level.
I'm not nearly as on the fence about this as the above situation. Shoko is shipped as the main heroine, but even to me her screentime is shockingly negligible. The series has focused far more on characters who are likely to become Valvrave pilots. We got a lot of screen time with our two new additions since the beginning. Admittedly the girl was a bit of a rush, but she was quickly becoming a focal point up to her induction into the group. Shoko hasn't really done much besides provide morale support to the masses, however. Granted she's had some interactions with Haruto (very much rarely, as by his design, a key factor in her potential demise as being a "regret"), and recently L-Elf, but these have really been snippets.

She's the primary heroine, yes. However her actual screentime and visible role is so small that she's really a side character right now. I think she's very important to the story as a manipulator for Haruto, and for helping to pull strings in the nation to varying degrees.

It's that age old question of what makes a character expandable, and what doesn't? Honestly, I've always found that screen time can be a huge tell. Especially low screen time followed by a period of focus. Sunrise loves this too, because I've seen them kill off great characters immediately after establishing how great they are. It doesn't matter how much time passes.

Shoko stands out. She's a shining beacon among this cast. She's sweet and kind, she provides and looks out for her colleagues, and she's selfless. This isn't a light-hearted show though. Valvrave is far darker, and even more so at its core I feel. It's about students collected to be the ideal space vampire mecha pilots in secret, and they were the only ones who weren't in on the plan. Those who take up the mantle seek out blood for the blood gods. There's no room for hope here. It's certainly not a coincidence that Aina wasn't some evil-hearted woman, because the death of a cruel character doesn't leave that thirst for revenge and that despair.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:00   Link #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traece View Post

She's the primary heroine, yes. However her actual screentime and visible role is so small that she's really a side character right now. I think she's very important to the story as a manipulator for Haruto, and for helping to pull strings in the nation to varying degrees.

It's that age old question of what makes a character expandable, and what doesn't? Honestly, I've always found that screen time can be a huge tell. Especially low screen time followed by a period of focus. Sunrise loves this too, because I've seen them kill off great characters immediately after establishing how great they are. It doesn't matter how much time passes.
You make a lot of good points, especially the ones I'm quoting above. That's why I also can see Shoko getting killed off. However...


Quote:
This isn't a light-hearted show though. Valvrave is far darker, and even more so at its core I feel.
I'm not getting a particularly 'dark' vibe from Valvrave. The show has this whimsical and kinda fun-loving nature to it that sometimes reminds me of Aquarion EVOL. And...

Spoiler for Major Aquarion EVOL spoilers:


The only named characters we've seen die so far are Senator Moses and Aina. That's not a whole lot really. That's just enough to make it clear that named character death isn't impossible in the show. But it's certainly not enough to make the show "dark", imo. The show might get dark, but it's not there yet, imo.


I think that whether Shoko lives or dies comes down to where this anime ultimately falls on the sliding scale of lighthearted vs. dark. Valvrave could decide to give its viewers a happy romantic ending for Haruto/Shoko.

But I will admit that two things lean against this - The time-skip scene involving Saki, and the fact that Shoko really isn't getting all that much screen-time, as you say.

So on the whole, I lean towards you being right about Valvrave, and about Shoko.
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:33   Link #66
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
You make a lot of good points, especially the ones I'm quoting above. That's why I also can see Shoko getting killed off. However...




I'm not getting a particularly 'dark' vibe from Valvrave. The show has this whimsical and kinda fun-loving nature to it that sometimes reminds me of Aquarion EVOL. And...

You realize that even if VVV turns all dark and despair, it'll most likely do so in a gloriously ridiculous (in a good sense) manner?
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Old 2013-06-11, 08:43   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Cosmic Eagle View Post
You realize that even if VVV turns all dark and despair, it'll most likely do so in a gloriously ridiculous (in a good sense) manner?
Being "gloriously ridiculous" kind of undermines a dark tone, imo. It's hard for something to be effectively dark if you can't even take it seriously.

Valvrave's tendency for being "gloriously ridiculous" is precisely why I'm not sold on this show being or getting all that dark. But time will tell.
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Old 2013-06-11, 11:19   Link #68
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Aquarion Evol killed off
Spoiler:


I wouldn't call them minor characters

What this means in term of Valvrave? Anyone outside of the main 4 aren't safe, even if they are Valvrave pilots
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Old 2013-06-11, 11:35   Link #69
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Originally Posted by Key Board View Post
Aquarion Evol killed off
Spoiler:


I wouldn't call them minor characters

What this means in term of Valvrave? Anyone outside of the main 4 aren't safe, even if they are Valvrave pilots
Spoiler for Aquarion EVOL reply:


In all seriousness, I agree that most of the Valvrave characters aren't safe.
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Old 2013-06-11, 12:31   Link #70
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While I like her character I could see Shoko dying. Even though they swerved us one time with her supposed death in episode 1 that doesn't mean she's safe because she already cheated death. Like Triple_R said most of the characters aren't safe.
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Old 2013-06-11, 14:33   Link #71
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Speaking of genki girls surely EVOL should have taught that's sometimes it's better to be dead than be Zessica. Or Naru. For Osananajimi. Or Flay, for politician's daughters. (Ops, she got both). Surely Shoko hasn't had lucky predecessors.
But as I said the only reason I found her death a possibility is exactly because she escaped death at the beginning of the show. Mixed obviously with that Saki flashforward. I don't know if I'd count her timescreen as a factor.

About dark vibes from VVV, lately I feel like the show it's always almost there to turn into something darker, but it doesn't in the end. I really was expecting the blue mecha to explode, instead he deflected that super powerful beam
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Old 2013-06-11, 15:58   Link #72
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About dark vibes from VVV, lately I feel like the show it's always almost there to turn into something darker, but it doesn't in the end. I really was expecting the blue mecha to explode, instead he deflected that super powerful beam
Death is always a huge lurker in this show. The fact that there was a timeskip into the far-flung future is pretty damning. Everyone in the future would be dead except for the immortals. But you're right, it's always kept at arms length as a possibility. As I try to say, I don't necessarily think that any character will absolutely die insomuch as it's absolutely possible for every one of them to die (except for the pilots and L-Elf; I don't see any point in that).

What Triple_R said is right though, as Valvrave does have a lot of light-hearted moments in it. Really it's just the story and the underlying plot of the Valvraves that's dark. It's a bit of both really.
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Old 2013-06-11, 16:48   Link #73
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About dark vibes from VVV, lately I feel like the show it's always almost there to turn into something darker, but it doesn't in the end. I really was expecting the blue mecha to explode, instead he deflected that super powerful beam
I agree. I'm not sure if this is there as a sort of ominous foreshadowing ("One of these days, the student-state's luck will finally run out..."), or if it means the show will stick with this suspenseful "on the edge of getting dark, but always pulling into the light at the end!" right through the whole narrative, maybe with just another character death or two in order to keep the suspense going.

Because of the time-skip, I lean towards the former.


So, a bit of a speculation here - I think the final episode of Season 1 will feature the fall of the student-state. During that fall, at least two named characters die. It could be as many as 6 or 7. Shoko may or may not be one of those characters. If Satomi doesn't die before this episode, he will die here.

Season 2 is post-time skip and will be kind of Die Hard meets Gundam, as the remaining Valvrave pilots fight to honor promises to passed away comrades and bring the fight back to Dorssia.
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Old 2013-06-11, 17:09   Link #74
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No she isn't shipped as the main Heroine as if she isn't, she is the main heroine. She's everywhere in the Valvrave Promotions and has the strongest presence in the anime out of any of the other female characters. She's the main heroine, I don't see how anyone cannot see that. I've seen plenty of other Anime whose main heroine is nowhere near as important or even well known/promoted as much as Shoko.

This isn't like Evol either where everyone forgot who the main heroine was and was rooting for Zessica and wishing the other girl would die already. Not to mention that many predicted near the end that Zessica had to die because she was the third wheel and someone big had to die right?

I also disagree again, her role is not small. She's a leader and is the reason many characters like Haruto, Saki, and even L-Elf have changed as her presence has caused them to grow as characters. She's very much important and had she not been around the show would be far different than it is now while you could kill off characters like Aina or the such far earlier and nothing would have really changed as she was a minor character, and her role was minor up to her death where she got a big push, while Shoko' role has been major since start to finish.

Just because she isn't super soldiering everything or a pilot doesn't mean she isn't a main character. Many compare her with Lacus and we all know that Lacus IS the main Heroine of SEED/Destiny even though for quite a while she liiterally did nothing and was nowhere in sight in both Animes.

Her screentime isn't low, hell she's gotten far more screen time and importance than Saki who is also a main heroine.

They've already shown that is Dark and Light and not just Dark. Shoko being everyone's light by no means means she will die. It's just like Code Geass when many expected Nunnally and Kallen to kick the bucket because of how important they were to Lelouch and the fact that unlike Shirley both are actually main characters. Hell, even after Nunnally's "fake death" many expected her to die again just like quite a few here are expecting Shoko to die again as Code Geass near the end was quite dark.
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Old 2013-06-11, 17:44   Link #75
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I agree. I'm not sure if this is there as a sort of ominous foreshadowing ("One of these days, the student-state's luck will finally run out..."), or if it means the show will stick with this suspenseful "on the edge of getting dark, but always pulling into the light at the end!" right through the whole narrative, maybe with just another character death or two in order to keep the suspense going.

Because of the time-skip, I lean towards the former.


So, a bit of a speculation here - I think the final episode of Season 1 will feature the fall of the student-state. During that fall, at least two named characters die. It could be as many as 6 or 7. Shoko may or may not be one of those characters. If Satomi doesn't die before this episode, he will die here.

Season 2 is post-time skip and will be kind of Die Hard meets Gundam, as the remaining Valvrave pilots fight to honor promises to passed away comrades and bring the fight back to Dorssia.
This is exactly what I think as well. Valvrave seems to me to be balanced between light moments and dark moments, however I get the feeling that the light moments are merely there to be a large contrast to the coming darker moments. Even with L-11 as their commander, I can't help but think that NeoJIOR is on borrowed time, and with it, quite a few of its students. Most of those students, especially the unnamed ones and the ones who might have a name but don't do anything (like the school council, Takahi's clique, and Yusuke's friends), are nothing but cannon fodder waiting to happen. And with the timeskip, it makes everything else that is coming even more dire.

I think this first season will definitely end in tragedy and that the next season will start with the 200+ year timeskip.
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Old 2013-06-11, 21:26   Link #76
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This is exactly what I think as well. Valvrave seems to me to be balanced between light moments and dark moments, however I get the feeling that the light moments are merely there to be a large contrast to the coming darker moments. Even with L-11 as their commander, I can't help but think that NeoJIOR is on borrowed time, and with it, quite a few of its students. Most of those students, especially the unnamed ones and the ones who might have a name but don't do anything (like the school council, Takahi's clique, and Yusuke's friends), are nothing but cannon fodder waiting to happen. And with the timeskip, it makes everything else that is coming even more dire.

I think this first season will definitely end in tragedy and that the next season will start with the 200+ year timeskip.
It definitely seems to be going this way. The students have the advantage. For now, at least. Just gotta wait for Cain to make his move.
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Old 2013-06-11, 22:13   Link #77
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Death is always a huge lurker in this show. The fact that there was a timeskip into the far-flung future is pretty damning. Everyone in the future would be dead except for the immortals. But you're right, it's always kept at arms length as a possibility. As I try to say, I don't necessarily think that any character will absolutely die insomuch as it's absolutely possible for every one of them to die (except for the pilots and L-Elf; I don't see any point in that).

What Triple_R said is right though, as Valvrave does have a lot of light-hearted moments in it. Really it's just the story and the underlying plot of the Valvraves that's dark. It's a bit of both really.
L-Elf is more immortal than the pilots, plot-armour wise

Usually being a pilot = death warrant written but not signed, immortality clause be damned.
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Old 2013-06-12, 00:12   Link #78
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L-Elf is more immortal than the pilots, plot-armour wise

Usually being a pilot = death warrant written but not signed, immortality clause be damned.
It's kind of like if you killed Suzaku or Kallen early on in the Code Geass series, or even Lelouch. Killing Suzaku or Kallen would've been pointless, because they're just pilots. One side just gets an advantage over the other in terms of skill. Pretty easy issue to remedy in an anime. If Lelouch died, then everything falls apart.

L-Elf isn't even really a pilot or the leader. He's kind of the tactician. If he died people wouldn't particularly bat an eyelash at it. Sure, the module would be doomed and everyone would probably die, but he's just a dude who's selfishly assisting them. His death just makes them vulnerable, and as they are they're already plenty vulnerable.

When a pilot dies it doesn't carry the greatest meaning either. People expect a pilot to die, whether they want to admit it or not. After all, when people are going into battle against a ruthless force of a military nation you hardly expect it to be rainbows and unicorns. Any major effect would be extremely limited, to the other pilots more than likely. One of the three can't even die because she has to live for hundreds of years.

Now Haruto on the other hand... Everything pretty much revolves around him.

As far as Valvrave goes, I think simply because the pilots are immortal and we know that several of them will survive for hundreds of years, it's unlikely that any of them will die. There's just no point, and it's contrary to the story established thus far.
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Old 2013-06-12, 08:10   Link #79
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I agree. I'm not sure if this is there as a sort of ominous foreshadowing ("One of these days, the student-state's luck will finally run out..."), or if it means the show will stick with this suspenseful "on the edge of getting dark, but always pulling into the light at the end!" right through the whole narrative, maybe with just another character death or two in order to keep the suspense going.

Because of the time-skip, I lean towards the former.
Definitely the "One of these days, the student-state's luck will finally run out..." one. Even because this student-state thing is the core of the so called "gloriously ridiculous" side of the show.

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I
So, a bit of a speculation here - I think the final episode of Season 1 will feature the fall of the student-state. During that fall, at least two named characters die. It could be as many as 6 or 7. Shoko may or may not be one of those characters. If Satomi doesn't die before this episode, he will die here.

Season 2 is post-time skip and will be kind of Die Hard meets Gundam, as the remaining Valvrave pilots fight to honor promises to passed away comrades and bring the fight back to Dorssia.
Ok, I've checked out the number of episodes of this first season and got surprised by the fact that this is a one cour season (12ep.). Given that there's no way that they will have the time skip before the end of season two.
The time skip would mean losing L-11, and he is what make this show not too generic. And consequentially it would mean that we'd lose that lily-haired Lacus-like little lady and their further connections. To replace them with who? Thunder and the other blue pilot? No way. And Shouko would not have enough time to go anywhere. Unless second season would not develop on a double timeline, the current timeline and the Saki's one. Interesting, but really difficult to handle imho.


On a side note, and I know that this has been already discussed, but I never got why a show should kill off all its main characters between one season and the other, unless a huge time gap between them.


Lastly a little tease for Destined_Fate.
Talking about Shoko being everyone's light into a context of a show that's tring to get dark sounds a bit ominiuos.
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Old 2013-06-12, 08:36   Link #80
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Show is Tsundere. It wants to be Light some days than Dark the next.
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