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View Poll Results: Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 9 Rating
Perfect 10 56 43.75%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 41 32.03%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 22 17.19%
7 out of 10 : Good 5 3.91%
6 out of 10 : Average 0 0%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 1 0.78%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 3 2.34%
Voters: 128. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-06-03, 06:06   Link #221
SQA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hawkeyesvn View Post
I just hope this series won't turn into another "Science is bad!" show and promote luddite.
I doubt it. It seems more about "how to manage in a crazy world out of your control". Which is why the whole "Hideauze are peoples!" bit is important.

Though scientists normally do a great job of producing luddites on their own. If would help if more of them weren't glory seeking hacks.
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:07   Link #222
Moe Connection
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Originally Posted by zeando View Post
in the records there was a video showing a structure resembling a lot the flower death star, so maybe that weapon was developed/firstly created back there and the space hideazue developed it further
the space flower also during the battle did regrow itself, so that flower too may have been biological based, so not really built

anyway the ones managing and developing the space flower, while i agree they should still retain some bioengineering knowledge (which itself doesn't mean they are surely competent in any other subject, the word intelligence itself is pretty unclear often), are not surely the same ones going into the battlefield as soldiers
so it's likely the high ranked hideazue have more than little intelligence, but it's not sure if the lower ones and soldiers were made able too
The way they operate implies they have hive intelligence instead, with them having a Queen who gives births and workers/soldiers who does all the work and guarding.

Last edited by Moe Connection; 2013-06-03 at 06:51.
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:10   Link #223
SQA
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Originally Posted by zeando View Post
in the records there was a video showing a structure resembling a lot the flower death star, so maybe that weapon was developed/firstly created back there and the space hideazue developed it further
the space flower also during the battle did regrow itself, so that flower too may have been biological based, so not really built

anyway the ones managing and developing the space flower, while i agree they should still retain some bioengineering knowledge (which itself doesn't mean they are surely competent in any other subject, the word intelligence itself is pretty unclear often), are not surely the same ones going into the battlefield as soldiers
so it's likely the high ranked hideazue have more than little intelligence, but it's not sure if the lower ones and soldiers were made able too
I get the feeling the Hideauze are a bit more like the Zerg. The "uppers" are still fully sentient, but most of the workers aren't anymore, if they ever were. What we is as the Whalesquids probably aren't sentient, but intelligent in the ways of a horse or primate, as they're the symbionts that merged with humans to create Hideauze.

I also suggest this as it makes Ledo slightly less of someone that just whipped out a much of a species Ender-style, and it would further explain the attack patterns of the Hideauze in ep 1. Massive swarms would make sense when it's all semi-intelligent fodder.
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:12   Link #224
Hamster
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Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:26   Link #225
hawkeyesvn
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Originally Posted by Hamster View Post
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!
Your avatar would be my exact reaction if I ever heard someone propose that human should turn into space squids for space exploring! If I have to choose, I would rather stay on earth and die as a human than abandon my humanity.
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:32   Link #226
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The elvolvers surely chose synthesis in mass effect 3.
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:43   Link #227
Libros
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Originally Posted by Hamster View Post
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!
If the Juvenile state was the final stop on transformation of the Hideauze I'd be much more interested in becoming one but...it isn't. So, to repeat what others have said, it's squid vs Nazi and eh..I'd rather die on Earth really.
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Old 2013-06-03, 06:59   Link #228
Funkatron
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A few points:
  • I think the episode made it pretty sure the whalesquids started out as human/symbiot hybrids. The whalesquid eggs and that squidling are proof of that. I also don't think that merging is still going on.
  • Both the Alliance and the space Hideauze are messed up. I think the moral of the story according is screw war, live life.
  • The whalesquids are the way they are probably because whichever ones who were left behind weren't the 'smart' ones. All the intelligent Evolvers either died during the new ice age or went into space. With no form of education, the ones who were left behind devolved intelectually and became a primative tribe. Actually, in that sense both the whalesquid and the humans in the fleet are quite similar: they both got left behind, and both got regressed and knocked back a few gazillion years. The difference is that the fleet is trying to somewhat regain what they lossed where the whalesquid are happy just living ang procreating.
  • Someone asked why they went so far to change themselves? They went to the extreme to solve a real problem having to do with space travel. The lack of gravity has bad effects on humans. On Earth, our muscles and bones are used to supporting our own weight. In zero g, there is nothing to support so your muscles attrify and you bones lose density. A few generations of this and humans would become week. The Evolvers were trying to find a way for humans to adapt to space so that wouldn't happen but they went way too far. I think the GA is doing the same thing. What we saw in episode 1 and the revelation that they dispose of the week hints at eugenics ie breeding the strong by getting rid of the weak. They only want the best because the best will survive space and the best will win the war.
  • I think Avalon is real and that they were pretty transparent with its purpose: its so the ones who survived the war can breed the next generation. You notice how they can go to Avalon after 16 years of service? Sixteen is a ripe fertility age and if you've survived your sixteenth birthday you are obviously strong ie breeding material.

I think Gargantia is the option Urobuchi wants the audience to choose as the 'right' one. They aren't perfect but its the best alternative compared to nazis and supersquids
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:02   Link #229
Moe Connection
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hamster View Post
Wow guys come on, the squids aren't THAT ugly. Just because a portion of humanity want to evolve into something different, it's no reason to bring out the pitchforks and torches.

I'd rather prosper as a space squid than live in a stifling military dystopia. Even if a hideauze doesn't look like it has a dental plan it's overall body shape looks fine and the juveniles look kinda cute.

Go Hideauze all the way!
I wouldn't actually call that evolving. It was more of being consumed by another organism. A symbiotic relationship can easily turn into a parasitic one with the 'symbiont' taking control. The way I see it, they are no different from flood-controlled humans from Halo. If you have no trouble killing flood controlled humans in Halo, you shouldn't have trouble killing hideauze as well. They are no different from humans who intentionally get infected by the flood and turned into one.
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:09   Link #230
Hamster
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Originally Posted by hawkeyesvn View Post
Your avatar would be my exact reaction if I ever heard someone propose that human should turn into space squids for space exploring! If I have to choose, I would rather stay on earth and die as a human than abandon my humanity.
Changing basic shape doesn't mean abandoning your humanity.

I'm sure some aliens out there would see a pink biped with a balloon stalk on top as something ugly.

@darthfanta

I don't play Halo but the hideauze in the recording look like they still have free will. They're just humans who opted to use extreme genetic manipulation and biotechnology, including biosuits and symbiotes, to achieve interstellar travel. If it works, then there's no need to fix it.
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:19   Link #231
Cosmic Eagle
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Originally Posted by darthfanta View Post
I wouldn't actually call that evolving. It was more of being consumed by another organism. A symbiotic relationship can easily turn into a parasitic one with the 'symbiont' taking control. The way I see it, they are no different from flood-controlled humans from Halo. If you have no trouble killing flood controlled humans in Halo, you shouldn't have trouble killing hideauze as well. They are no different from humans who intentionally get infected by the flood and turned into one.
Although are they parasitic or is the human still in control is unknown
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:26   Link #232
mikeomni
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So now we've seen three paths for humanities survival. Is there a fourth?

Let's review:
Galactic Alliance - genetic purists with Nazi vibe, draconian society in continual war with the Hideauze, Hideauze are not human and should be exterminated ... btw we're looking for a new home ... aka Nazi's in space ... similar to the Human Alliance in the Crest of The Stars series

Hideauze - abandoned the human form by their own choosing, discarded moral conventions, continued to fight Galactic Alliance, equally morally bankrupt when the original purpose to save life by going to the stars was set aside ... like the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants crossed with Cthulu

Gargantia/Whalesquid - those that were left behind (unknown if by choice or accident), primitive by space standards, less powerful, subsistence living, they stay out of each other's way, not necessarily co-existence more like clearly defined boundaries ... which have now been broken with Ledo's arrival

? Option #4 - what does Ledo+Chamber+Hideauze origin revelation+Gargantian morality (less violent ... not necessarily superior) open up?

Last edited by mikeomni; 2013-06-03 at 07:37.
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:34   Link #233
Hamster
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If Ledo destroyed the remaining whalesquids who retreated to their nest then all that's left are the babby squids. It didn't look like Ledo killed all of them.

He and Amy will probably spend their life being foster squid parents and eventually become human squid themselves and make new human-squid hybrid babbies.
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:37   Link #234
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I could see Ledo and Amy educating the squidlings to create a true co-existence. I don't think there will be anymore merging shenanigans, though
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Old 2013-06-03, 07:55   Link #235
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It wouldn't shock me to find out that not only does Avalon not exist, but perhaps there aren't any civilians in the Galactic Alliance at all anymore - maybe when a soldier's useful life is deemed over, they tell them they're going to paradise to screw and party and then do to them what they did to the children they deemed unfit. Who can verify anything at this stage?
The problem I have with that is that Ledo was supposed to go to Avalon while being:

1) an exceptional fighter
2) still young with a long career as a squid slaughterer ahead

Now if we hadn't seen Kugel I could perhaps think that the GA kills every soldier as soon as they grow too old. But clearly Ledo is a lot younger than Kugel.

Moreover if Kugel never went to Avalon before, he and others could begin to understand that something isn't right. Aren't people supposed to go there as soon as they turn 16 as Chamber seemed to suggest?

Now there is also the hypothesis that soldiers aren't killed and that Kugel went to "Avalon" and learned that it's none like it was described. But wouldn't that defy the whole purpose of creating this myth?
Wouldn't it be more efficientl to keep the soldiers dreaming about Avalon until they die?

Honestly as much as it's "cool" to think that the government is evil I'm not ready to buy any theory about their misdeeds if it doesn't make sense.


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Originally Posted by Funkatron View Post
A few points:
Someone asked why they went so far to change themselves? They went to the extreme to solve a real problem having to do with space travel. The lack of gravity has bad effects on humans. On Earth, our muscles and bones are used to supporting our own weight. In zero g, there is nothing to support so your muscles attrify and you bones lose density. A few generations of this and humans would become week. The Evolvers were trying to find a way for humans to adapt to space so that wouldn't happen but they went way too far. I think the GA is doing the same thing. What we saw in episode 1 and the revelation that they dispose of the week hints at eugenics ie breeding the strong by getting rid of the weak. They only want the best because the best will survive space and the best will win the war.
But that's the point. The pro Hideauze faction here seems to argue that saying that the Hideauze ways are wrong is like saying that transhumanism is wrong.

Well I totally disagree with that, that's not a sound argument at all. I can be against nuclear weapons without being against nuclear energy. Just because I'm against a certain use of a technology it doesn't mean that I'm against the technology itself.
Moreover just because a technology exists it doesn't mean that it should be used freely and without wisdom.

Turning humans into squids seems to me like one of the worst possible ways to "Improve" humans no matter how you look at it. Like many others pointed out this looks more like involution than evolution.
The base concept is wrong. If evolution was a matter of survival and physical prowess then there are bugs that are by far better than us on that regard. And this is where the whole Evolver philosophy went wrong.
They forgot what actually makes us a superior species and pursued qualities that are proper of lesser creatures. What they obtained are superior animals, not superior humans.

I'll use this image to prove my point:



The device you see there is a "closer pass" the quantum bomb that was supposed to be used to destroy the Hideauze's nest.

The way the Hideauze are swarming around it doesn't seem to show any kind of intelligence at all. If they are intelligent they should know what it is and they should know that staying close to it means to die.
Then why are so many of them trying to destroy it?
Note that the giant flower thing is probably strong enough to do the job by itself and therefore all the other slugs have no reason to stay there. Moreover the flower thing is going to eat the whole thing, regardless of the Hideauze that are still there.
As if that wasn't enough, another flower thing is about to pointlessly join the first right before the explosion.

Just how does that make any sense in human terms? Either these things have no intelligence or they have completely lost any kind of sense of self and respect for other individual lives.

Sure Kugel also sacrificed himself for the sake of the alliance, but that was also to save Ledo. If they acted like the Hideauze they would have both stayed behind even if only one sacrifice was needed.

So while Kugel recognized the value of a single individual, everything suggests that the Hideauze do not.
And that screams "Borg" to me, which are a major example of a transhumanism gone wrong.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:05   Link #236
Hamster
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Those squid grunts are probably just drones. If the Hideauze are intelligent enough to develop giant beamspammers and have the GA on the run then it's safe to say that they have just as much potential for technology or maybe even more so than the 'normal' humans.

Also, they aren't that ugly.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:08   Link #237
Libros
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Also, they aren't that ugly.
Not the flower one at least.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:14   Link #238
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Those squid grunts are probably just drones. If the Hideauze are intelligent enough to develop giant beamspammers and have the GA on the run then it's safe to say that they have just as much potential for technology or maybe even more so than the 'normal' humans.

Also, they aren't that ugly.
Well there are red ants that with sufficient numbers can eat a human to bare bones.. and they dont use nuclear fission... Numbers.. that always won the wars.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:14   Link #239
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Those squid grunts are probably just drones. If the Hideauze are intelligent enough to develop giant beamspammers and have the GA on the run then it's safe to say that they have just as much potential for technology or maybe even more so than the 'normal' humans.
If you check the first part of this episode, you'll notice that Chamber shows how the nautilus Hideauze are essentially identical beings as the whalesquid. The main difference is that they have a shell.

Let's even assume that those are mindless drones, well that's more of a reason to not feel any kind of compassion for them.

It would mean that in the end Ledo never killed the sentient beings but just their mindless drones. While the Hideauze have killed humans all along.


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Also, they aren't that ugly.
We might have a different sense of aesthetic completely.
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Old 2013-06-03, 08:27   Link #240
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Hey war is war. It's not the Hideauze's problem their enemy isn't using unmanned fighters.

Both sides are more or less as bad as each other and I'm sure even the Hideauze has their share of innocent "civilians"... but history is written by the victors. In this case it seems that the Hideauze have the upper hand.
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