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View Poll Results: Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 11 Rating
Perfect 10 5 8.33%
9 out of 10 : Excellent 15 25.00%
8 out of 10 : Very Good 26 43.33%
7 out of 10 : Good 11 18.33%
6 out of 10 : Average 3 5.00%
5 out of 10 : Below Average 0 0%
4 out of 10 : Poor 0 0%
3 out of 10 : Bad 0 0%
2 out of 10 : Very Bad 0 0%
1 out of 10 : Painful 0 0%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2013-06-16, 17:16   Link #41
Dark Wing
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Originally Posted by andyjay729 View Post
Why oh why is there only one season of this? Things are heating up in an interesting and scary way, but with all the buildup, I don't know if any ending, whether happy or sad, could possibly be satisfactory. They really shouldn't have dithered around so much during the show's midpoint.
Agreed, This is one of those rare instances where I do wish a show was longer the 13 episodes so much can be done with tohis current set up. However I still have faith that things will be rapped up by the end.
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Old 2013-06-16, 17:16   Link #42
mikeomni
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.
You'd think a MC with no gaps in it would be hermetically sealed. He even had a space suit as a backup. If he had the virus before the Hideauze space battle, he should have been unfit for duty and summarily disposed as defective. #2 and #3 are somehow unlikely. #4 is plausible. There is a #5, if he had at any point exited the MC and contracted that virus. But in Episode #1, Chamber scanned the environment for dangerous elements before letting Ledo out. In the confines of a space colony any sort of contagion is serious business, you'd think they have filters for those things. It looks like a Chekov's gun.
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Old 2013-06-16, 17:21   Link #43
leongsh
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Amy and her brother, Bevel, would be the determining factors for Ledo. Especially Bevel. Ledo has connected with him to see him like the brother he once had and could do nothing about when the Galactic Alliance disposed his younger brother.
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Old 2013-06-16, 17:40   Link #44
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Interesting episode. Pinion's reign of terror really was short lived as it was to be expected. At least he is accepting the fact without making a fuss thus recovering a bit from the past episode's descent in total douchebag territory.

Now there's really something wrong. Kugel not showing up in person is extremely suspicious. The endemic disease seemed like a bad conceived lie and Chamber apparently doesn't think of that as something plausible considering he conjectures other more plausible hypothesis for that.
When he asked more info about the endemic disease directly to Striker I thought he was already sniffing something fishy, but since he ran a check up on Ledo I guess it's entirely possible that he was simply concerned about his pilot's health.

Anyway the fact that Striker spoke to Pinion directly was also pretty suspicious (who would have thought that Pinion was actually talented?), and equally suspicious is the whole theory that "now that we have two machine calibers we can conquer the world". Why? Striker should have been more than powerful enough to subdue Gargantia, why does she need to send Ledo?

If we pair that with Striker's desire to get Pinion on her side as quick as possible, I guess it's likely that Striker isn't functioning properly. That might be because she no longer has enough energy or some kind of internal damage.

Anyway it's either Kugel who went full "heart of darkness" or Striker who went rogue and developed a goddess complex.
All that, and I'll raise with: what was that about radio silence? Who's there to eavesdrop, and decrypt GA communications? As far as we know, the only ones who can do that are 6000 light-years away.


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Originally Posted by LystAP View Post
Well, logically, the society that developed on the cultist fleet is not that different from what the Galactic Alliance does normally (after all, science and religion aren't as different as you'll think; science uses logic thus people sometimes follow blindly, but occasionally that logic can turn up to be flawed or drawn from incomplete premises).
People are people, but science and religion are fundamentally different, as LoweGear pointed out.

Still, I don't think Kugel, if it's him, is trying to make a GA away from the GA. He just went for some quick and dirty fix to make people do as he told them. He's more ambitious than Ledo, but he knows he doesn't have the resources to reproduce a space faring society. He just wants them to stop dicking around and start fighting the Hideauze on Earth.

I think it's good that he's ambitious, but I'm really not sure about his methods. On all levels.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.
He could have gone outside his cockpit a bit after he arrived and caught something there. And concluded the only way to survive was to stay in a sterile environment. It's actually weirder that Ledo didn't catch anything. You'd think the immune system of people living in space would be much weaker than that of primitives.
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Old 2013-06-16, 18:05   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
He could have gone outside his cockpit a bit after he arrived and caught something there. And concluded the only way to survive was to stay in a sterile environment. It's actually weirder that Ledo didn't catch anything. You'd think the immune system of people living in space would be much weaker than that of primitives.
Yes, that is possible, but as mikeomni said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeomni View Post
But in Episode #1, Chamber scanned the environment for dangerous elements before letting Ledo out. In the confines of a space colony any sort of contagion is serious business, you'd think they have filters for those things.
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Old 2013-06-16, 18:17   Link #46
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Chamber and Lukkage vs Striker. Come on, make it happen!
Lukkage has something up her sleeve and I think her underlings were asking if it was their time to play their part in whatever scheme she has in mind.
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Old 2013-06-16, 18:23   Link #47
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
I also think that Striker has its part in the scheme. Something feels wrong about this "disease". How could he get a virus like that? Only 4 possibilities:

1. He got the virus before the battle in space against the Hideauze
2. He had for some reason during the space battle a PHYSICAL contact with a Hideauze (unlikely)
3. The warmhole somehow caused this
4. The virus just formed in his body.

But all these possiblities... I don't know... they seem strange... also that scene where Chamber asked for "information" regarding the disease screamed "Chekov's gun" to me. I am quite sure that it is NOT a red herring.
Uh... according to the sub I watched the disease is supposed to be endemic.
That implies that it's some kind of virus or bacteria that exists on Earth and not among the people of the alliance.
All your speculated possibilities do not fit with the adjective "endemic".

The only way Kugel could have contracted an endemic disease is by getting out his cockpit and interacting with humans on Earth. Or by taking something from outside inside the cockpit like water and food.
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Old 2013-06-16, 18:47   Link #48
Algent
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Kugel actions are in the boundary of the Alliance teachings and since he was chosen as the leader of a very big attack (he lead all caliber units in episode 1) we can assume he is let's say "very compatible" to those teachings.

So yes there is a probability of him being dead and his AI could either have took charge or is running a simulation of Kugel personality. But with this in mind I don't think it would be relevant, a soldier can be a machine more easily than an AI can be empathic.

Still it would be interesting if they go a bit far into a AI route, something like "The Alliance is commanded by AI, and Kugel was a simulation from the start". After all we shouldn't forget this show have really AI, not just some bulls* ones.
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Old 2013-06-16, 19:00   Link #49
ApathyEcstasy
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I would just like to point out that this is completely and flat out wrong. Science is completely different from religion based on the fact that it tests for repetition and proof, and will change to accommodate new solid information. If the hypothesis does not come to a proper conclusion or turns out to be false, then science will find another explanation till the conclusion matches the observations. Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.

Scientists value logic and skepticism because it allows them to not leap to conclusions that may turn out to be false. They only follow what information they have until new developments either amend or disprove their earlier data, at which point changes will be made so that their conclusions match what they see. Religion is immutable, and relies on a constant that cannot be proven or disproven, only believed, no matter if there is no proof for it.
Thanks. I can see I'm not the only one that gets really irritated when people have such massive misconceptions. I was just about to start writing a long-winded post to correct him, but decided it isn't worth it. If someone isn't willing to educate themselves correctly, then that's their own loss.

Also, Ledo fighting with Kugel/Striker is so predictable that I hope it doesn't happen. I hate predictable plots. I am interested to see which side Chamber ends up on, how, and why.
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Old 2013-06-16, 19:01   Link #50
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I also think Striker went rogue and Kugel is prob already dead or worse yet, he had a disagreement with Striker and was killed by it/her.

Btw, why doesn't Lukkage or her crew have the symbol on their forehead?

This is gonna end with Chamber + Ledo vs Striker at the end with some how earth Hydeauze helping them in some shape or form to win.
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Old 2013-06-16, 19:35   Link #51
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At first, when Kugel was going on about keeping "radio silence" instead of contacting Ledo, my BS detector went off, and I assumed he was already dead, as I'd speculated last week. But that was a pretty convincing hologram, and Chamber had a decent explanation why he might want to stay inside Striker, so now I don't really know what to think.

Nice of Melty to try to cheer Pinion up, even if it was in a backhanded way. There really is a camaraderie among the Gargantians, even after one of them screws up. They're forgiving almost to a fault, but that's their idea of unity, and I guess you have to compare it to Kugel's version.

The unexplained seated and bound figures that Pinion passed by were a nice, disturbing touch. I'm glad they left it to our imagination what's going on there. Besides, they're on a platform that is equipped with what appears to be a giant "f*ck these dudes" lever, so I don't think we need it spelled out.
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Old 2013-06-16, 19:59   Link #52
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This episode was an interesting watch, but some elements of it felt a bit weird to me. Ledo snaps out of things pretty fast, and I was a bit surprised at how "eager to serve" he initially was upon discovering that Kugel is alive (or, at least, that's what Striker wants Ledo to think). In fairness, I guess it's only natural that Ledo would be excited to finally be reunited with another human from the GA.

Similarly, Pinion took his "dethroning" pretty well. Fortunately for him, he slides pretty easily from a leadership position into a highly regarded (going by that feast prepared for him) Engineer. Unfortunately for him, nobody suffered from QUALITY animation in this episode as much as he did.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Haak View Post
God this is really scary now. The show is really at the cross roads at the moment and unlike other anime where the path is usually obvious, I can really see this going either way. Total despair, or total awesomeness: Which is it going to be?
I agree. I think that the viewer is definitely meant to be disturbed by the society that Kugel/Striker have set up. If that society fully takes over, it will come across as a bleak, 1984-esque ending.

On the flip-side, if Ledo successfully rebels against it, then that could conceivably be a "total awesome" ending.


Quote:
Chamber and Lukkage vs Striker. Come on, make it happen!
That would be a very fitting climax for this anime given its mecha elements, and given the setup that we have right now.

However, it would also require Chamber to kind of change his mind, as thus far he appears to be in full agreement with Striker.

Perhaps next episode will be about Ledo trying to change Chamber's mind, leading into an Episode 12 cliffhanger of Chamber/Lukkage challenging Striker to a climatic duel that will be the main showcase of the final episode.
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Old 2013-06-16, 20:47   Link #53
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Well I could certainly see Ledo needing to sacrifice Chamber in order to bring down Striker by the end. They could go from 2 of these units down to one in a pretty big hurry depending on how things unfold.

I didn't think too much of it, but the Striker being the one in charge route does make some sense. In order to convince Ledo would obviously need to simulate someone that he would actually follow the orders of almost without thinking.

Otherwise it would still follow within expectations that Kugel set up this grand cult in order to take over and then wipe out the Hideauze. Could see a more experienced soldier having the willingness to more or less take over the fleet he first encountered and then just start expanding from there.

At least going after Gargantia should be the kick Ledo needs to stand up against these orders, though probably not immediately. In the end whether Kugel is alive or not almost won't matter. Since the only way I can see them resolving this is scrapping Striker which would force him out into the environment.

On the AI front I wonder if Striker actually just tricked Kugel into thinking he was sick. Would be more efficient for setting up that cult if he was suffering from a kind of isolation. If he's disconnected from the world outside of his unit could make him more willing to take such extreme methods.
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Old 2013-06-16, 20:58   Link #54
Irenesharda
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Okay, either this show is going to end in the most sappy, stereotypical, "I-could-have-written-this-myself" ending, or they might try for something a little more original.

So Capt. Kugel has introduced the Galactic Alliance's society to Earth, and we begin to see the other extreme of argument on the advancement of society. Sometimes humans "advance" to the point were things go wrong and they too lose touch with their humanity.

The Hideauze are forgotten as we see Kugel continue to push for the advancement of the human race and make them more efficient. Pinion and Flange and their fleet are dragged into it and Kugel is planning an operation that involves Gargantia.

How will Red react and will he continually follow orders blindly?

However, why do I get the funny feeling that Kugel is dead and this is Striker's doing? Could it be that after her commander died the machine carried on the mission of the GA using the hologram of Kugel as a front?

I'm very suspicious of the fact that no one has actually seen Kugel and even Red has only seen computer images or holograms of him. Is this really going to be the machines taking over? Is Striker the "Skynet" of this series?

Well, I'm interested in seeing what this series will do, but I just hope we don't get a sappy, fluffy ending. What will happen in the end?

I give this episode a 7.69/10.
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Old 2013-06-16, 21:03   Link #55
GreyZone
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Originally Posted by Algent View Post
So yes there is a probability of him being dead and his AI could either have took charge or is running a simulation of Kugel personality. But with this in mind I don't think it would be relevant, a soldier can be a machine more easily than an AI can be empathic.
Well there is a HUGE difference between these two scenarios actually. While Kugel is higher in the chain of command than Ledo, Striker is NOT. That's a huge difference for Chamber!

Also I have my suspicions about Chamber... something tells me he is a good guy... I think that request for information about the disease was not simply there to check if Ledo is infected as well... there is a deeper meaning behind it, I am sure it is a "Chekov's gun".


EDIT:
@Irenesharda: The canon romanji form is Ledo and not Red. Check the Ledo thread.

Also I am wondering if the series will end with a massive EMP that destroys both chamber and striker and also the wormhole device...
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Old 2013-06-16, 21:22   Link #56
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@Irenesharda: The canon romanji form is Ledo and not Red. Check the Ledo thread.
I call him Red because I want to. I'm not the only one either. Red or Ledo, or whatever goes by a lot of names across the web. I like to call him Red.

Anyway, I think there might be a possibility that even if Chamber goes against Striker, which I think he will, Striker could try to override Chamber's systems since her machine being the machine of a commander probably has override codes for Chamber's model.

Another thing I thought about with Kugel was that when we saw him in the beginning, this was a guy who was willing to sacrifice his life for others and go even against GA protocol when the situation called for it.

However, the one we see now, shows none of that. That's another thing that makes me suspicious of Kugel and whether it's really him or Striker calling the shots.
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Old 2013-06-16, 21:23   Link #57
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Originally Posted by GreyZone View Post
Well there is a HUGE difference between these two scenarios actually. While Kugel is higher in the chain of command than Ledo, Striker is NOT. That's a huge difference for Chamber!

Also I have my suspicions about Chamber... something tells me he is a good guy... I think that request for information about the disease was not simply there to check if Ledo is infected as well...
I agree. Chamber isn't just blindly assuming that Striker is telling the truth. When Chamber requested information about the disease, I took it as Chamber kind of raising his eyebrows (if he had eyebrows ) and basically saying "Reallly now? That's a bit hard to believe. Can I see your evidence please?"

Perhaps Striker's AI was somehow corrupted by being thrown through the wormhole, and she has indeed become the new Skynet. If so, maybe Chamber ends up finding a hole in her official story, and that leads into Chamber changing his mind and siding with Ledo against Striker.
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Old 2013-06-16, 21:29   Link #58
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I'm still uncertain in the "Striker is doing the Wizard of Oz thing with a dead Kugel" area. What I'm pondering now is the significance of Ledo seeing Kugel (because Kugel is alive and/or Ledo won't follow anyone other than Kugel) while Pinion saw Striker. If Striker was able to imitate Kugel, I don't see why it would show itself as Striker to Pinion, unless Striker is smart enough to know that Pinion is better with machines than people.

And while I think that the idea that Striker could be keeping Kugel locked inside the MC for its own reasons is plausible, I don't know if a Striker vs. Kugel twist would just be adding unnecessarily to the twist pileup that is already happening at the end of the series.
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Old 2013-06-16, 21:31   Link #59
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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.
You should add that 1+1=2 is only true in Rn or other bases that's spanned by similar vectors I can bring out a proof for 1+1=0 if we are entering another basis

Mathematics aside this episode left me a bit puzzled in the sense that there seems to be nothing wrong with how the story's going (to me), but I just cannot bring myself to give it a perfect score or even close to that. There's something fundamentally wrong with Kurgel's scheming, I mean all that talk about changing humanity of his sounds more like his way to gain more power and to reign over all else in the end. What good does the new society order bring and how's that even related to the whalesquid war in Earth? And not to mention there hadn't been a single war against the squid until Chamber and Striker were scavenged from the seabed. I mean it's like suddenly charging in your neighbor's house and then announce that everyone must live the way you want them to from now on...

And btw I was wishing somebody from the other fleet would fire a beam right at Pinion's head after he commenced the attack all on his own. Too bad it was the pillar took the hit, not the jerk himself.
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Old 2013-06-16, 21:38   Link #60
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I would just like to point out that this is completely and flat out wrong. Science is completely different from religion based on the fact that it tests for repetition and proof, and will change to accommodate new solid information. If the hypothesis does not come to a proper conclusion or turns out to be false, then science will find another explanation till the conclusion matches the observations. Thus for science, 1 + 1 will equal 2 unless proven otherwise by a test that shows 1 + 1 will sometimes equal 3, at which point tests will be conducted until they find the reason why such things occur, and then amend to say "1 + 1 = 2 unless X condition is met, and thus 1 + 1 = 3."

Religion on the other hand is based upon faith, the unshakeable belief in the correctness of something despite lack of tangible proof. Thus, if the religion says that 1 + 1 = 4, then that is what people will believe, even if tangible tests show that 1 + 1 = 2.

Scientists value logic and skepticism because it allows them to not leap to conclusions that may turn out to be false. They only follow what information they have until new developments either amend or disprove their earlier data, at which point changes will be made so that their conclusions match what they see. Religion is immutable, and relies on a constant that cannot be proven or disproven, only believed, no matter if there is no proof for it.
I can refute part of that absolution on the basis that very few of the major religions are as unshakeable as you state; if they were, they wouldn't have lasted as long as they did nor would they have become as popular even in the modern day. As an example, in Judeo-Christo tradition, the only absolute rules laid down anywhere is the Ten Commandments, and even that is open to some brand of lawyering by particular sects; the majority of scripture originates or are based on off-hand accounts and interpretations that is often based on the perspective of the individual interpreting the said scripture. Otherwise there would be no need for the clergy, whom are often responsible for deducing, often times through a process similar to that of those in the scientific field, the proper response or interpretation to a particular problem (thus why many of the earliest Western scientists, especially during the Dark Ages were members of the clergy), although precedence does tend to have a higher imperative; in many religions this is still often the case.

Another example is sharia law, despite what many in the United States have come to believe, sharia law can be as flexible, fair, and complex as the Western legal tradition, this is why it continues to be popular in many of the better developed Muslim countries despite their access to secular law and education; although admittedly there are branches that still suffer from out-of-date cultural contexts. No true religion, at least not one that survives in the long term, would declare that 1 + 1 = 3, at least not without losing their constituency or being seen as crazed heretics by the mainstream religion. Would you believe in a God that doesn't make any sense? No one would, and if they did, they would usually have developed that decision from faulty premises, something called Locke's Madman; a condition of which the scientific fields are far from immune too.

Going back to Kugel's cult, although Kugel and Striker use religion as a proxy for their "rehabilitation" of the earth-bound humans (they may as well not see what they're doing as creating a religion, but conforming the people to the basic standards of the Galactic Alliance), the same conclusion can be drawn from the necessity of the Galactic Alliance's culture; in a way, you could say the Galactic Alliance and its' ideals of human superiority is a religion in of itself; there is logic in it if you only consider it from the viewpoint and experiences of the Galactic Alliance, like the way Kugel most likely still does. (I find this inflexibility strangely typical of adults in anime, especially in series targeted towards younger folk.)

But for Ledo, who has developed new experiences and values, the logic of the Galactic Alliance, of Kugel, and even Chamber no longer possesses as much value as they would have had Ledo never left his cockpit. For Kugel, what he is doing is as logical as 1 + 1 = 2, the possibility of Ledo rebelling against him would make as much sense as making the sum 3. But from Ledo's perspective, Kugel left out the 1 (the humanity that the Gargantians taught Ledo) that makes it 3. Kugel can't see that 1 from his mecha Olympus, but Ledo can, thanks to Amy, Bellows, and the other Gargantians. Kugel isn't incorrect in his choices, from a certain well-intentioned extremist point of view, but neither would Ledo be if he chose to rebel against Kugel and Striker in defending the Gargantia.
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