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Old 2014-06-11, 08:13   Link #2001
OminousFlare
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
"And because I could never bear to do something that would make someone as strong as you cry like this." said Madoka, while holding Homura in her arms.

"Then for you, that's something that hurts you so much you couldn't bear it?" asked Homura, with the look of shocked epiphany in her eyes.

"That's right. You, Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko, my dad and mom and Tatsuya, and even Hitomi and everyone in our class... I would never want to go somewhere I could never see anyone again."
Ugh. Thanks for reminding me of that. Clearly, Homura doesn't understand that a person's beliefs and interests could change overtime, given the growth and maturity needed. In storytelling, it's called "character development," Homura.

Still, I guess it's excusable that she's only a pre-teen.
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Old 2014-06-11, 08:20   Link #2002
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
The other line is a mistranslation too. She just says "I caught you."
No it isn't. She plainly says "yatto", "finally". The "been waiting so long for this"-thing is odd indeed though. What was wrong with just "I was waiting for this"?
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Old 2014-06-11, 09:44   Link #2003
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Originally Posted by OminousFlare View Post
Ugh. Thanks for reminding me of that. Clearly, Homura doesn't understand that a person's beliefs and interests could change overtime, given the growth and maturity needed. In storytelling, it's called "character development," Homura.

Still, I guess it's excusable that she's only a pre-teen.
Homura probably just believes what she wants to believe.
She thinks Godoka is unhappy and belives that Madoka's statement proves her right.
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Old 2014-06-11, 11:18   Link #2004
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Originally Posted by Vegard Aune View Post
No it isn't. She plainly says "yatto", "finally".
You're probably right. I did say I don't have the movie with me right now so I'm working on what I remember. I'm pretty sure about the other line though, because it's not the first time I've pointed out it was mistranslated.

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Originally Posted by Szadek View Post
She thinks Godoka is unhappy and belives that Madoka's statement proves her right.
To be fair, Madoka might be unhappy as a goddess. She seems to regard what she's doing as "duty," which isn't something you usually associate with happiness. Unless your "duty" happens to be your "desire" as well, of course. But this doesn't seem the case here as the movie presents "duty" and "desire" as a duality. In fact, "duty vs desire" seems to be one of the main themes. Madoka chose duty over her true desires, while Homura, on the other hand, chose the latter. That's the impression I got at the very least.
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Old 2014-06-11, 13:47   Link #2005
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I can vouch that she indeed says 'yatto'.

Quote:
To be fair, Madoka might be unhappy as a goddess. She seems to regard what she's doing as "duty," which isn't something you usually associate with happiness. Unless your "duty" happens to be your "desire" as well, of course. But this doesn't seem the case here as the movie presents "duty" and "desire" as a duality. In fact, "duty vs desire" seems to be one of the main themes. Madoka chose duty over her true desires, while Homura, on the other hand, chose the latter. That's the impression I got at the very least.
Yes, but the only one who insists on this theme is Homura, and whenever she poses it to Madoka, she seriously loads the question.
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Old 2014-06-11, 17:23   Link #2006
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The thing is that as long as Madoka has a purpose, as long as she feels that she's making a difference, she's happy.
Homura -cannot- be happy unless Madoka is safe, normal, static and therefore purposeless.
Their goals are inherently incompatible.
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Old 2014-06-11, 19:18   Link #2007
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Yes, but the only one who insists on this theme is Homura.
If we're supposed to think that way Madoka would have rejected the question all together. But she didn't. She replied clearly. For her duty comes first, and this answer still has duty and desire as opposites.
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Old 2014-06-11, 20:16   Link #2008
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In re-watching the movie yesterday, I did get the impression that Homura was pretty startled by the Flower Fields conversation.

There's a definite sense of "Oh noes! Madoka is probably badly suffering as Madokami!"

So I think that Homura is at least completely sincere in coming to this belief. Alas, I also think she's mistaken, and read a bit more into Madoka's words than she should have.
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Old 2014-06-12, 07:26   Link #2009
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just cause your yandere doesnt mean you'll actively go out to screw out other people for no reasons.

even yuno much later, left yuki's friends well alone when they werent trying to stop/obstruct her. she doesnt have a vendetta on them, and even let the guy who bullied yuki, the girls who tried to kill him, and her love rival be close to yuki... she only reacted when they started to block her way.

I can sort of see that, well depending on how homura would be now, that she might consider offing the girls if they prove to be too resistant or bothersome to madoka.
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Old 2014-06-12, 11:22   Link #2010
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After re-watching the movie, three completely new questions came to mind for me:

1. Are Incubators still recruiting more magical girls? Or has Homura stopped further recruitment, while sort of grandfathering in Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko, etc...?

2. If Incubators are still recruiting, is Madoka actually able to make another wish now? I mean, now that she's been turned into a normal girl again, would Kyubey consider her as never having been a magical girl in the first place, and hence able to become that all over again?

3. With 2 in mind, was Kyubey mind-wiped like Madoka and Sayaka were?


I was going to ask these questions on the fanfic thread, but I think they're questions that all movie-watchers might care about.
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Old 2014-06-12, 13:19   Link #2011
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If QB is now in... whatever condition that was, where do magical girls come from in Homu's remade universe? Does Homura actually have any plans to combat entropy, or defeat the Wraiths?

What I got from the ending is that the universe is now less stable than it was in the TV series' ending, unless there's a bunch of things we're not told about in regards to like, what happened to the magical girl system.
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Old 2014-06-12, 14:03   Link #2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
If we're supposed to think that way Madoka would have rejected the question all together. But she didn't. She replied clearly. For her duty comes first, and this answer still has duty and desire as opposites.
Not really? Like, that's not how Madoka, or like, conversations work.

1) Homura poses a loaded scenario; she presents her grief as a dream and doesn't give Madoka the full context. Whether Homura knows it or not, she gears Madoka towards a specific answer because the scenario doesn't include WHY she would leave, or how necessary it would be to protect her friends and family.

Or that she'd always be with them. And that no one would miss her except Homura, and even then only temporarily.

2) Homura poses a loaded question in the hallway, giving her the option of 'which is more important; the laws of the world, or personal desires?' Of course Madoka would say the former. Almost anyone would. You can't just go running around breaking the law just because you want to, and anyone who isn't a complete nutcase would say so. Homura specifically painted the option SHE'D take as the irresponsible, 'evil' one.

Hell, this is a Madoka who doesn't know about magic. She might not even understand that Homura isn't talking about, like, stealing things, or something.

Quote:
After re-watching the movie, three completely new questions came to mind for me:

1. Are Incubators still recruiting more magical girls? Or has Homura stopped further recruitment, while sort of grandfathering in Sayaka, Mami, Kyouko, etc...?

2. If Incubators are still recruiting, is Madoka actually able to make another wish now? I mean, now that she's been turned into a normal girl again, would Kyubey consider her as never having been a magical girl in the first place, and hence able to become that all over again?

3. With 2 in mind, was Kyubey mind-wiped like Madoka and Sayaka were?
I feel like Homura probably left Kyubey's memory intact for the sake of torturing him as much as possible (the implication seems strong that he's now a slave that she has fun abusing), and since this is an actual world with history and not just an incoherent dream, people will probably atleast remember contracting with him even if he doesn't actually do so anymore.

And unless Homura has a way of permanently stopping the Wraiths, he should still be recruiting. That said, I don't think Madoka is a viable target simply because Homura's in control and can pretty much make Kyubey leave her alone now. "She's off limits. Go near her, die. Talk to her, die. Let her become aware that magic exists and you will wish I had simply killed you."

That being said, Madoka could PROBABLY make another wish, if the opportunity was set for it.
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Old 2014-06-12, 18:57   Link #2013
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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Homura poses a loaded question in the hallway, giving her the option of 'which is more important; the laws of the world, or personal desires?' Of course Madoka would say the former. Almost anyone would. You can't just go running around breaking the law just because you want to, and anyone who isn't a complete nutcase would say so.
Homura specifically painted the option SHE'D take as the irresponsible, 'evil' one.
Yeah but the writer also wants to make Homura the wrongdoer here, because he's working on a theme. Of course in real life duty and desire don't make a perfect duality. Anyone who isn't a nutcase would actually reply they're not necessarily mutually exclusive. Yet in this case, they are mutually exclusive. Even if the Madoka Homura's talking to doesn't know the whole story, she knows enough. She knows that what's most important to her as a person is being close to her loved ones, but she also knows that she would be willing to throw that away if she didn't have any other option. That's enough, both to validate what Homura's doing but also to make it clear Madoka will never see eye to eye with her.

So I don't think Homura made a mistake. I think Madoka the goddess probably really was unhappy to some extent. The moral issue, imo, is the fact that Homura took Madoka's free will. She might have done it to help her but it's still wrong, and Homura knows it, hence she sees herself as evil and try to play the part to cope with her guilt. But again, I don't think her actions are misguided.
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Old 2014-06-12, 19:46   Link #2014
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post

To sum it up, I don't think Homura made a mistake. I think Madoka the goddess probably really was unhappy.
On what basis do you think that? Because really, I don't see any good basis whatsoever for thinking this.

Madokami constantly looks happy, often downright blissful. That's true for her brief appearance in the movie as well, with one obvious exception, and that exception only supports the idea that Madokami is truly happy. The exception is that Madokami starts to truly panic when Homura begins overwhelming her. Her panicking like that strongly suggests that she was quite happy and content as Madokami, and wanted to stay that way.

"Maybe Madokami is faking it."

Oh, you mean like how Madoka successfully put on a strong face after Mami's death? Do you mean how Madoka kept a stiff upper lip after Sayaka's body briefly went lifeless in Episode 6? Do you mean how Madoka kept her feelings to herself when Sayaka's lifeless body was presented to her in Episode 9? Do you mean how Madoka didn't start crying bitterly during that one horrific scene in Timeline 3 where Mami sort of snapped? Oh wait...

Madoka is one of the least pretentious fictional characters of all-time. She couldn't even manage to look strong and act normal in the presence of her parents in Episode 4. While Sayaka at least was able to casually chit-chat on the way to school, Madoka looked and acted like a Key sad girl in the snow. Madoka has never been good at hiding her emotions, so why should Madokami be any different?


I don't see any good reason whatsoever for thinking that Madokami wasn't, on the whole, happy and content. I think Homura's actions were misguided (even if understandable), and I think I have very good reason for thinking that.
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Old 2014-06-12, 20:17   Link #2015
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On what basis do you think that? Because really, I don't see any good basis whatsoever for thinking this.
On the basis that the movie never actually questions whether Homura made a mistake. On the flower field Homura comes to the conclusion that Madoka sacrificed her happiness for the sake of the greater good, and she doesn't want to let Madoka do that. Then at the end in the school hallway Madoka confirms Homura's reasoning by outright telling her that she would choose duty over personal desires. Homura's reasoning isn't invalidated.

What the movie questions, through Sayaka, is the morality of Homura's actions, not whether those actions are motivated by misguided conclusions.

I do respect your opinion, but I don't see it.
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Old 2014-06-12, 21:09   Link #2016
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Originally Posted by Triple_R View Post
On what basis do you think that? Because really, I don't see any good basis whatsoever for thinking this.
Separate conversations, but I want to preface this post with the point below:

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Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Or that she'd always be with them. And that no one would miss her except Homura, and even then only temporarily.
Although those statements could be argued with reasonable confidence for Puella Magi, I don't think they can be applied to Madoka's normal acquaintances or her family. Even without direct visual evidence of Madoka emoting, there is certainly an element of genuine sacrifice/loss in Madoka's separation from her family.

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...I don't see any good reason whatsoever for thinking that Madokami wasn't, on the whole, happy and content.
Based solely upon Madoka's direct screentime throughout the TV finale and movie, I think it is reasonable to conclude, at least, that Madoka was not dissatisfied in her role as Madokami. However that is different from asserting that she was not without any pain. Motivationally speaking, I find it delicate and somewhat difficult to accept that Madoka's satisfaction in performing a meaningful role for the sake of the world/others fully overrode the pain of being completely removed from her family. I find it rather more easy to believe that the primary anchor keeping her dedicated to her role is her sense of duty.

As Madoka's personal feelings reflect upon our evaluation of Homura's actions and motivations, I don't consider Madoka's sense of duty a bad thing. Rather, I have to say that I saw a resemblance to Madoka's mother in her focused and dispassionate visage, as she tried to recall her goddess memories (and spoke of where she should be) prior to her and Homura's confrontation, which was actually rather impressive/interesting. However, as far as Homura's own actions and feelings, I don't perceive that there is anything wrong or that she is at all unjustified in considering that Madoka's ascension/separation from the mortal universe is an unacceptable sacrifice.

Ultimately, Homura's powergrab is nothing but her own equivalent self-actualization. Homura's will/truth is that Madoka's happiness is above all other values/existences in the universe; against obstacles to Madoka's happiness then, including other people/a society to which Madoka feels bound by duty to give up her own happiness, it thus stands to reason for them to be subjugated/destroyed. Considering aspects of Homura's characterization (her loathing for the world at large ("irredeemable"), and her own self-loathing), there can be no doubt that Homura's ultimate desire/concern is Madoka's happiness, not her own. From the standpoint of an external observer, then, between Homura's exclusive love for Madoka and Madoka's universal love for the world, I have no reason to pick a side. Both are equally compelling to me as motives/characterizations. So as long as there is some aspect of Madokami's existence which indeed interferes with Madoka's happiness, I don't consider Homura "mistaken".

edit:

I do think there is an irony in the story's 'duty'/'desire' dichotomy in that ultimately it seems like Homura herself is also acting out of duty rather than desire. Homura's dedication to Madoka's happiness at the expense of her own signifies a rejection of her own desires. One interesting example of this I think is Homura's reasoning for rejecting Sayaka's proposal of indulging the happy illusion of her witch world. Homura's justification at that point was that doing so would be a disrespect to Madoka's sacrifice (although, if I recall correctly, at that point Homura believed the Madoka present in her labyrinth was a fake). This would be one incident which essentially illustrates that Homura's actions regarding Madoka, and likely some part of her loathing towards other parts of the world, stem from a sense of duty towards her.
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Old 2014-06-12, 22:03   Link #2017
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On the basis that the movie never actually questions whether Homura made a mistake.
It doesn't have to explicitly question it. It's quite possible for the viewer to reasonably conclude from all the available evidence that Homura was mistaken about how happy Madoka was as Madokami. If the movie did not want that viewer conclusion to be possible then the movie narrative could (and should) have been executed differently.


Quote:
On the flower field Homura comes to the conclusion that Madoka sacrificed her happiness for the sake of the greater good, and she doesn't want to let Madoka do that. Then at the end in the school hallway Madoka confirms Homura's reasoning by outright telling her that she would choose duty over personal desires. Homura's reasoning isn't invalidated.
I disagree. This does not count as Madoka confirming Homura's reasoning as it pertains to whether or not Madoka was happy as Madokami. It is quite possible for somebody to be happy while fulfilling what they believe to be their duty.

I'm more or less with AuraTwilight - Homura's questions are pretty loaded, and almost any sane reasonably law-abiding person would answer the way Madoka did.


Quote:
What the movie questions, through Sayaka, is the morality of Homura's actions, not whether those actions are motivated by misguided conclusions.
Sayaka's objection to Homura's actions don't strike me as being purely moral in nature. I think that Sayaka sincerely feels that she has lost something valuable, something that she wanted to keep because it gave her a very fulfilling sense of purpose and meaning. Sayaka wanted that as a personal desire, not just out of a sense of duty or obligation.

This could certainly suggest that much the same is true for Madoka.


Quote:
I do respect your opinion, but I don't see it.
I'm sure you can follow the points I've made.

My opinion on this is perfectly viable, and hence should not be hard to "see".

Speaking of seeing, that's a key for me here. One of the oldest rules of good writing is as follows - "Show, don't tell". Going by that rule, Madokami was clearly and unambiguously happy.


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Originally Posted by Sol Falling View Post
Although those statements could be argued with reasonable confidence for Puella Magi, I don't think they can be applied to Madoka's normal acquaintances or her family. Even without direct visual evidence of Madoka emoting, there is certainly an element of genuine sacrifice/loss in Madoka's separation from her family.
If that sacrifice/loss causes more grief for Madoka than the happiness she receives from being Madokami, then Madokami ought to be shown emoting that, given Madoka's overall characterization. Madokami doesn't emote the slightest amount of sadness (if anything it's quite the contrary), so there's no good reason to think that Madokami is significantly unhappy on the whole.


Quote:
Motivationally speaking, I find it delicate and somewhat difficult to accept that Madoka's satisfaction in performing a meaningful role for the sake of the world/others fully overrode the pain of being completely removed from her family.
Do you think people are incapable of being happy after their parents pass on? Perhaps some are, but I think the majority are still able to be happy on the whole. So I'm sure Madokami could similarly be happy on the whole.


Quote:
I find it rather more easy to believe that the primary anchor keeping her dedicated to her role is her sense of duty.
You know, some people enjoy having a strong sense of duty. It gives them happiness and a sense of purpose. I think there's plenty of good reason to think that this is true of Madoka and Sayaka. In the TV series, Madoka spoke of wanting to feel useful to people. It's quite possible that as Madokami she felt tremendously useful to a lot of people, and hence was very happy as Madokami.

In fact, that's what I'm inclined to believe, which is why I almost completely disagree with you on this topic. If Madoka was happy as Madokami then it makes Homura's actions a clear mistake, given the very basis of those actions. It would be an understandable and probably forgivable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.
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Old 2014-06-12, 23:02   Link #2018
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If Madoka was happy as Madokami then it makes Homura's actions a clear mistake, given the very basis of those actions. It would be an understandable and probably forgivable mistake, but a mistake nonetheless.
I think thematically speaking the movie would be pretty empty in that case. Here we have two people who have totally opposite world-views and have taken totally opposite decisions. Making one of them "mistaken/misguided" would be an easy way out. The moral issue is a lot more deeper if both have valid reasons for doing what they do. More importantly, their conflict is a lot more compelling as they're portrayed more equally.

But really, the movie just doesn't even attempt to invalidate Homura's reasoning. The two moments when the matter is mentioned in the movie are consistent on this. You said there is evidence that Homura was mistaken but there's none as far as I can see. All in all, I've no reason to doubt that her conclusions about Madoka are correct.

Quote:
It is quite possible for somebody to be happy while fulfilling what they believe to be their duty.
In general terms, yeah, but the movie portrays it as a dichotomy to work on a theme. Duty vs Desire, God vs The Devil, Madoka vs Homura. As you said, this duality isn't always true in the real world, but sometimes it is, and the conflict between Madoka and Homura is meant explore such a case imo.
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Old 2014-06-12, 23:07   Link #2019
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Originally Posted by Kazu-kun View Post
I think thematically speaking the movie would be pretty empty in that case. Here we have two people who have totally opposite world-views and have taken totally opposite decisions. Making one of them "mistaken/misguided" would be an easy way out. The moral issue is a lot more deeper if both have valid reasons for doing what they do. More importantly, their conflict is a lot more compelling as they're portrayed more equally.

But really, the movie just doesn't even attempt to invalidate Homura's reasoning. The two moments when the matter is mentioned in the movie are consistent on this. You said there is evidence that Homura was mistaken but there's none as far as I can see. All in all, I've no reason to doubt that her conclusions about Madoka are correct.
Even if Homura was mistaken about Madokami, it doesn't invalidate her reasoning.

She did what she did because she loves Madoka and wants to be near her. Homura may have gotten the idea based on what Madoka said, but in the end she did what she did for her.
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Old 2014-06-12, 23:20   Link #2020
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Even if Homura was mistaken about Madokami, it doesn't invalidate her reasoning.
It does invalidate it. Homura's reason to do what she did is that Madoka was unhappy to some extent. If she's mistaken about that, then her reasoning as invalid and her actions misguided.

But like I said, I don't think that's the case. I think her conclusions about Madoka are pretty much correct.
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