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Old 2014-06-24, 00:16   Link #2121
AuraTwilight
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I'm largely with you in thinking that platonic love alone could motivate someone to go to great lengths to protect/save a person.

However, a couple points as it pertains to MadoHomu specifically:

1. Timeline 1 Homura had known Madoka for only a few weeks. Now, just in my personal experience, platonic love usually takes more time than that to build up to something strong. Romantic love, I think, can take off a bit more quickly because of its inherently passionate nature.

2. The exact nature of Homura's wish has always been eyebrow-raising to me. She could have just wished Madoka back from the dead, of course. That would have been a much simpler and more straightforward way to have her new friend alive again. So why did Homura wish to go back in time? Why use such a roundabout way to save her new friend? I'm inclined to think it's because Homura wanted to redo her original meeting with Madoka not only to save Madoka, but also for its own sake. In other words, Homura might have felt she hadn't given Madoka the sort of first impression that she would like to give. Homura might have wanted to seem more "cool" to Madoka, more impressive to Madoka. This is more or less what I'm inclined to think. Now, wanting to seem cool/impressive in the eyes of someone you just meant, and wanting it badly enough to make an actual wish for it... That does feel a bit more like a romantic aim to me than a platonic one. I'm not saying it's impossible even in a platonic light, but it's a bit more of a stretch there, I think.
1) Eh. Arguable. In my personal experience I'm very passionately and quickly prone to liking people in a platonic sense in a way similar to Homura, and a few others I've seen too, but I acknowledge people like me are outliers and anecdotal evidence doesn't mean much.

Still, you're also not taking into account the circumstances of this friendship. Madoka's saved her life, and was also the first person to reach out to her and compliment her and give her any sort of positive feedback on her self-image. She's clearly made an extraordinary effort to include Homura in her life, and when you consider that Homura is a friendless orphan and is implied to have been this way for a while, Madoka's basically a godsend in her life.

for Homura, yea, I buy that she's romantically invested in Madoka pretty easily, but the circumstances can justify any sort of attachment of this immense strength and obsession. Madoka is LITERALLY her whole life, not just figuratively. She has no other reason to get out of bed even before she contracted. She was literally thinking suicidal thoughts before their friendship (yea a Witch was involved but it seemed to be piggybacking on her actual thoughts).

2) This point is less convincing. Putting aside any arguments of the practicality of reviving Madoka and all (because she'd just die again eventually and Homura wouldn't be able to do anything about it), I believe wanting to be cooler is for HERSELF, not to impress Madoka. Madoka doesn't need impressing, that's the whole point. Madoka sees the good things in her no one else does, and she cares for Madoka because of it and finds it inspiring.

But without Madoka affirming it, she can't hold onto that. Homura deeply resented herself, her weakness, and her flaws long before Madoka entered her life, and Madoka helped alleviate that but did not cure it. This is much deeper than wanting to impress Madoka; she's choosing to reinvent herself and become her own personal ideal through magical empowerment. Madoka is her ideal, and she wants to be like her and reverse the dynamic. Maybe just a little bit, envisioning themselves as partners in the second timeline, but...

Well, we all know how it goes. Eventually she ends up reversing things to unhealthy degrees, and she pretty much denies her entire selfhood in the face of her goal. I mean goddamn look at the Clara Dolls. These are not feelings that sprouted up because of her going Satan Mode and feeling bad about her actions; they predate that. These feelings have existed in Homura for a LONG, LONG time.

Without Madoka in her life to say otherwise, Homura has absolutely nothing good to say about herself. This is why her love for her goes from what a normal person's would be to the obsessive, unstable, but beautiful drive that makes her devote every fiber of her body and soul to her. She sees no value in herself, so she makes herself an accessory to the well-being of someone that DOES have value.

Homura hates herself. As long as she does, her love with Madoka will always have this unhealthy, obsessive, corruptive core. It was subtle at first, but when Homura was validated by Madoka's suffering, it got completely out of control; it now consumes her utterly. Homucifer is nothing else now except her self-loathing and her desire to twist the whole entire universe into Madoka's happiness.

She's empty of anything else but those two things, and she needs help. This goes beyond romantic love. She has an illness.

Quote:
That's an interesting point, because this Sayaka never even knew about Madoka until Sayaka disappeared from Soul Gem corruption. So this Sayaka's relationship with Kyouko is probably very different than her TV meeting, as Madoka's absence will surely cause some butterfly effects in Sayaka's life. Mami still being around would also surely change some things.

To be fair, I think this actually helps KyouSaya shippers. I mean, let's face it, having a serious battle to the death (Sayaka's own assessment of it) isn't exactly the best way to kick off a relationship...

That fight likely never happened in the new Madoka!World, or even if it did it was probably cut short by Mami intervening (and Mami probably wouldn't wait as long to intervene as Homura did).
Agreed, actually. Mami being able to mediate between the two girls would be a godsend for their relationship. She's their Auspistice, to Homestuck-ify terms again.

That being said, yea, no, the main anime timeline does not lead to a any sort of romantic climate. Sorry.
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Old 2014-08-16, 05:17   Link #2122
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i have just watched the film and finished it now...and im so lost...anyone care to explain the ending to me?? is it pretty much they are in a dream world where homura is god? potential for another movie?
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Old 2014-08-16, 05:39   Link #2123
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Originally Posted by fuff View Post
i have just watched the film and finished it now...and im so lost...anyone care to explain the ending to me?? is it pretty much they are in a dream world where homura is god? potential for another movie?
homura pretty much rewrote the whole universe in the same way as madoka did.

as for a continuation, its fairly likely, but nothing really confirmed yet.
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Old 2014-08-16, 14:34   Link #2124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fuff View Post
i have just watched the film and finished it now...and im so lost...anyone care to explain the ending to me?? is it pretty much they are in a dream world where homura is god? potential for another movie?
Basically Homura became a god, tore Madoka out of the Law of Cycles, and rewrote the universe under her rule. Sequel hooks abound.
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Old 2014-08-16, 22:49   Link #2125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silvercover View Post
homura pretty much rewrote the whole universe in the same way as madoka did.

as for a continuation, its fairly likely, but nothing really confirmed yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AuraTwilight View Post
Basically Homura became a god, tore Madoka out of the Law of Cycles, and rewrote the universe under her rule. Sequel hooks abound.


thanks!! i was thought nagisa would have a bigger role, i dont know after seeing the movie i feel like it wasnt really the end, because it kinda felt empty dunno how to explain it

and i dont also get the part after the credit where homura falls off the cliff/hill???
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Old 2014-08-17, 15:23   Link #2126
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It was symbolic. The world is only half full, and coupled with the imagery during her talk with Sayaka, it's implied Homura feels guilty about what she did and is harboring suicidal thoughts.
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Old 2014-08-17, 15:58   Link #2127
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and i dont also get the part after the credit where homura falls off the cliff/hill???
It symbolizes falling for grace. She became the "Devil" that opposes the will of "God" after all. But I disagree with AuraTwilight that she's harboring suicidal thoughts. She's beyond that already. She knows what she did is wrong, but she accepts that and keeps moving forward, even if that means dooming herself. She's not really falling, she's more like voluntarily diving, but not to her death, to a future without what she loves the most. That is the price she's willingly paying for Madoka's happiness.
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Old 2014-08-17, 16:43   Link #2128
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I think that Homura is depressed (though perhaps in a manic depressive sort of way so far), but I'm not sure if she's downright suicidal or not.

I think she might end up feeling suicidal depending on how things develop further, but I don't think she's there yet.

Can Homura handle feeling at odds with, and separate from, Madoka, on a permanent basis? I think this is an interesting question, and I can imagine decent arguments for both a "yes" and a "no" answer.

It might be interesting if any sequel addressed this. Homura is a psychologically fascinating character, as this movie showed in flying colors, and probing that further and deeper could make for a great character study and great entertainment.
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Old 2014-08-18, 04:44   Link #2129
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Well,Homura already attempted suicide at least 1,perhaps twice,although under different circumstances.
The obvious one is in Rebellion when she turn into a witch on purpose,knowing that Kyoko and Mami will kill her.
Homura most likely has attempted to kill prior to Rebellion by corrupting her soul gem on purpose so she can meet Madoka again.
She is definitely capable of killing herself ,and what she had to do (or better what she think she had to do) probably only made it worse.
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Old 2014-08-18, 14:04   Link #2130
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But I disagree with AuraTwilight that she's harboring suicidal thoughts.
So, the part where the Familiars are taking off their shoes and jumping to their metaphorical dooms and throwing tomatoes at her in ways that evokes the same sort of blood from her mock-suicide in the Mami battle...

The Familiars and their imagery reflect Homura's true state of mind, and none of them have any flattering names or actions. At the very least, Homura harbors an incredibly intense self-loathing. I find it highly likely that her mission to protect Madoka is the only impetus she has for living, and when Madoka dies as a happy old grandmother or w/e, she's gonna eat a shotgun.

And, you know, Homura's been pretty much suicidal before she even MET Madoka, so all this Magical Girl bullshit probably only compounded it.
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Old 2014-08-18, 23:29   Link #2131
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Hmm, I'm going to go back to something that has been discussed because I've figured (or think) something out.

What Homu said to Madoka as the latter came to save her towards the end of Rebellion. "I've been waiting for this moment"!

Up until last night I always had trouble getting my head around it as I thought that she had meant that she had been planning for what happened for a long time or just throughout Rebellion. But then it hit me, she didn't mean it in that sense, all she meant by it was that she was finally with Madoka again and she was as she took Madoka and her history from the Law of Cycles.

So the one thing that was slight puzzling to me was put to sleep. :3
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Old 2014-08-19, 09:29   Link #2132
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^that was a slight translation error iirc.

forgot the actual text, but it didnt imply that homura planned it for a long time like that subtitle meant.
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Old 2014-08-26, 06:56   Link #2133
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Notes on the anime and Rebellion from Gen Urobuchi at Japan Expo USA

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I was fortunate enough to interact with Gen Urobuchi at three separate occasions during Japan Expo USA: a signing, his panel, and his "master class" (10 of us got to sit down with Mr. Urobuchi + a translator and listen to him talk about the process for creating Madoka Magica). Here are some things I learned (synthesized with some of the answers I received at Anime Expo in order to form a coherent narrative):

Regarding the Madoka Magica anime:

Madoka Magica was created as "three truths" (which Homura essentially recaps at the beginning of Rebellion). These formed the guidelines for the character and scenario design.

The first truth: magical girls exist in the world. Magical girls appear to draw power from their soul gem, which they acquire through making a contract with a "fairy" and being granted a wish. The strength of their magic depends on the difficulty of their wish.

The second truth: the soul gem is not the source of a magical girl's power, but rather her soul. As magical girls use more of their power, it is their destiny to turn into the witches they fight. This truth is one of the surprises that will be introduced to the audience.

The third truth: there is one "fairy" for the 6.6 billion people on Earth. This is the other surprise that will be introduced to the audience.

In character design, there were only two characters that were detailed out at the beginning. The first was Madoka, who was created as a character that was weak, not confident in herself, and had trouble making decisions. There was around a page of notes on Madoka's character design.

The second was Homura, who had by far the most initial character design (several pages worth). Homura was created as a character that was going to be introduced as very cool and pragmatic, even at the expense of looking like the bad guy. Urobuchi from the beginning had an idea what Homura's wish would be, and how it would set the chain of events of Madoka Magica in motion. In the initial character design, he also planned out how her time powers would work.

Mami, Sayaka, and Kyoko each had around a paragraph of notes. Sayaka was described as Madoka's best friend. Mami and Kyoko had various notes about how their characters would act.

For the story and scenario design, the story was an Urobuchi original. The references to Faust were added after the initial story was written (by other staff I assume).

Regarding The Rebellion Story:

For The Rebellion Story, Urobuchi also did not have any overt philosophical influence while writing the story. It should be noted that this is true for all Urobuchi works. His influences are more philosophical muses than direct guides. References to Nietzsche and other German philosophy were added after the story was completed (again, by other staff it seems).

According to my friend who understands Japanese mannerisms, Urobuchi seemed very resigned while talking about the addition of "God is dead" and etc. to the scenario. Urobuchi also made very clear both at JXUSA and AX that any future Madoka scenarios are both his work and that of many others. I'm hoping to ask him if this means the rest of the Magica Quartet/scenario designers or if he is referring to fan works.

Magical girls do exist in Homura's new world.

Note that was all through a translator so I'm not sure if anything was lost or twisted in meaning.
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Old 2014-08-26, 13:19   Link #2134
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"There is one fairy for the 6.6 billion humans on planet Earth."

I freakin' knewww it.
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Old 2014-08-26, 17:19   Link #2135
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well at the very least, the last line does indicate the series is really not over if magical girls are still around, probably with mami and kyouko still being one while sayaka, madoka and nagisa being "normal", at least for the moment.
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Old 2014-08-26, 17:57   Link #2136
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Sayaka has a Soul Gem ring and Kyousuke's waking around perfectly healthy. She is almost definitely a Meguca in Homuverse.
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Old 2014-08-26, 18:11   Link #2137
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well its up to interpretation if sayaka is still one. notice how her ring is pretty much "clean" as in it has none of the usual runes.

plus you'd think that, if madoka is left out of the loop(and presumably nagisa too), sayaka probably would be as well. homura must be feeling pretty confident if she's letting her still be one.
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Old 2014-08-27, 01:31   Link #2138
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She has the ring and the little blue moon on her fingernail. If that's not Meguca, I don't know what the fuck is. I wouldn't count on the lack of runes not being accidental anyway; in the original anime broadcast, Madoka lacked the Soul Gem ring and fingernail rune in almost every scene where she's a Meguca in civilian form.
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Old 2014-08-27, 03:45   Link #2139
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I honestly believe the lack of runes only signifies that she can't access her powers because of her memory being wiped of her being dead and such, if she were to remember what she was I'd bet they'd resurface.

I can foresee a second season where the current main 5 Megucas go about remembering who they really are/were and gradually team up to take on the one who has agitated the world, HOMU!!! And with how Sayaka was seemingly the only one to remember what Homu had done and everything of her past, I'd bet she'd be the lead character. A 24 ep second season would be great for character development and rediscovery.
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Old 2014-08-27, 08:20   Link #2140
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I don't think the other girls (except of course Madoka) even have the slightest chance against Homura in a fight right now.

While we're on it,I'm pretty sure Homura doesn't even want to be that powerful.
At the beginning of the movie we see who she wants to be,at least subconsciously.
She is back to her former moemura-self and in the team she only has a support role.
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